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View Full Version : And So It Begins...NY Times Op Ed: Right to Bear Glocks?


jtmkinsd
01-10-2011, 12:29 AM
Helmke and the Brady bunch are going to go full court press on this one...Although I don't know why they bring up the Federal AW ban...it would've had absolutely no bearing on this firearm. Unless they mean the newer version put forward by the "It's a shoulder thing that goes up" Congresswoman McCarthy.

NY Times Op Ed: Right to Bear Glocks? (http://www.nytimes.com/2011/01/10/opinion/10collins.html)

This is just a sample of what's coming:

Loughner’s gun, a 9-millimeter Glock, is extremely easy to fire over and over, and it can carry a 30-bullet clip. It is “not suited for hunting or personal protection,” said Paul Helmke, the president of the Brady Campaign. “What it’s good for is killing and injuring a lot of people quickly.”

I can't tell you how much I am thankful to have a Republican contrloled congress again...but I fear even that will not be enough to stop some kind of legislation from being enacted. What it looks like...time will only tell.

Ed_Hazard
01-10-2011, 12:33 AM
I wonder what type of gun the Pima County Sherrifs carry? Along with a large majority of LE. Mr. Hemke's broad brush of BS paints them in a new light as well.

andrewj
01-10-2011, 12:44 AM
A 9mm Glock is "not suited for personal protection"? Helmke must be a 1911 guy.

BigFatGuy
01-10-2011, 12:49 AM
That should be Glock's new ad campaign: "Glock: Easy To Shoot Fast!"

SwissFluCase
01-10-2011, 12:58 AM
Yes, the right to bear Glocks, or any other everyday service pistol whose natural habitat is hanging off of a street cop's butt.

Maybe Mr. Helmke needs to re-read Heller.

Regards,


SwissFluCase

wildhawker
01-10-2011, 12:59 AM
Apparently he would rather I carry my Glock 20...

Liberty1
01-10-2011, 1:06 AM
Slander I say! My dept. issued glock is my defensive sidearm! Ask any defense attorney who has ever questioned me! And my 30 rd mag is my back up supply!

snellav
01-10-2011, 1:07 AM
I wonder what type of gun the Pima County Sherrifs carry? Along with a large majority of LE. Mr. Hemke's broad brush of BS paints them in a new light as well.

I live in Tucson most of the year. Tucson PD carry Glock 19s.

AndrewMendez
01-10-2011, 1:39 AM
Glocks hold 30 rounds?!!?

You know what pisses me off the most about these people, is they have zero idea what they are talking about. A 30 round clip...wtf is a 30 round clip.

subrosa
01-10-2011, 1:43 AM
"If Loughner had gone to the Safeway carrying a regular pistol, the kind most Americans think of when they think of the right to bear arms..."

I am curious how a Glock19 is not a "regular" pistol. I am fairly sure all my semi-auto pistols shoot at the same speed: as fast as I can pull the trigger.

cmth
01-10-2011, 1:45 AM
Funny, my local PD are issued Glock 17s or 19s (with G26 authorized for off duty carry) and they all carry loaded 33 round mags in the trunks of their cruisers for backup. Helmke is exceptionally gifted for talking out of his own ***.

safewaysecurity
01-10-2011, 1:53 AM
A 9mm Glock is "not suited for personal protection"? Helmke must be a 1911 guy.

:rofl2: Also these guys are just getting ridiculous... the damn thing was designed for personal protection. Their level of idiocy makes me go :willy_nilly::willy_nilly:

jdberger
01-10-2011, 2:13 AM
Sad Panda.

Josh Horowitz at Coalition to Stop Gun Violence is going completely bonkers over this.

zoglog
01-10-2011, 2:50 AM
If Loughner had gone to the Safeway carrying a regular pistol

I wasn't aware the glock 19 was a special pistol lulz....
looks like a bash on 30 rnd mags D:

Well it's an OP Ed, just write into the author and try to be respectful...........

TNP'R
01-10-2011, 3:23 AM
All these idiot anti's just need to look at CA for an example,yeah our murder rate is 0% because we have strict gun laws...these people will never learn.

Carnivore
01-10-2011, 3:40 AM
8 people died this weekend in Washington DC that has some of the strictest gun laws in the country. THEY DON'T F-ING CARE, the anti's just want guns gone....period. If no one was ever shot again they would STILL want them gone. Who here is surprised?

TNP'R
01-10-2011, 3:43 AM
the average joe anti gunner wants guns gone because they think it will make it a better place, the anti gun politicians want guns gone not because it will make it a safer place but because they want in office and they will take up any cause that will get them elected.politicians don't care about the people they care about personal gain and if that comes at the expense of the american citizen so be it.

Shiboleth
01-10-2011, 5:27 AM
That was the worst, misleading POS i've ever read.

cdtx2001
01-10-2011, 5:28 AM
"If Loughner had gone to the Safeway carrying a regular pistol, the kind most Americans think of when they think of the right to bear arms..."

I am curious how a Glock19 is not a "regular" pistol. I am fairly sure all my semi-auto pistols shoot at the same speed: as fast as I can pull the trigger.

Maybe he meant a 38 cal revolver. Maybe... I think the others are correct, he must be 1911 guy.

As for the "good for killing and injuring a lot of people quickly" crap, what the heck do they want??? I guess Helmke wants those that are fatally shot to die a slow death, that's cruel.

BTW, was the AZ shooter carrying a 33rnd clip?

B Strong
01-10-2011, 5:32 AM
Helmke and the Brady bunch are going to go full court press on this one...Although I don't know why they bring up the Federal AW ban...it would've had absolutely no bearing on this firearm. Unless they mean the newer version put forward by the "It's a shoulder thing that goes up" Congresswoman McCarthy.

NY Times Op Ed: Right to Bear Glocks? (http://www.nytimes.com/2011/01/10/opinion/10collins.html)

This is just a sample of what's coming:



I can't tell you how much I am thankful to have a Republican contrloled congress again...but I fear even that will not be enough to stop some kind of legislation from being enacted. What it looks like...time will only tell.


Good thing their (the Brady's) influence is generally limited to the NYT editorial offices, and similar offices elsewhere.

Politicians have largely ignored them for quite a while now, their funding is far worse off than CGN and the CGF, and although they can make mischief, they're about as powerless as a "group" can be and still stay on the radar.

Lot's of fail in that oped, it won't be hard to pick apart, and that's our job.

gatdammit
01-10-2011, 5:38 AM
>

lDiQthsOS4Q



The anti's are at it. Let's hope we don't get a knee jerk reaction from law makers. Sheriff's 3:04 comment sucks. Actually, from what he has said, I'm not liking him too much. Comeon! I hate this talk about speech having consequences, give me a break.

vantec08
01-10-2011, 5:40 AM
Good thing I use an EAA Witness. Mercy.

70extreme
01-10-2011, 5:48 AM
Here is the reason so many people died - NOT ONE AMERICAN IN THE VICINITY OF THE SHOOTER WAS EXERCISING HIS 2ND AMENDMENT RIGHTS!

Unlike in California, this shooter could have been stopped. But, people were just too lazy and foolish to carry a weapon.

Shiboleth
01-10-2011, 6:00 AM
>



The anti's are at it. Let's hope we don't get a knee jerk reaction from law makers. Sheriff's 3:04 comment sucks. Actually, from what he has said, I'm not liking him too much. Comeon! I hate this talk about speech having consequences, give me a break.

Sounds like someone used vitriol in his last scrabble game and he wants to sound smart with.

Not one hint that this gunman was to blame for this action. No no, everyone else was to blame for influencing him.

Exile Machine
01-10-2011, 6:04 AM
Glocks hold 30 rounds?!!?

Glocks can hold 30 rounds. Glock makes a 33 round magazine for 9mm. Damn thing sticks way out of the bottom of the gun.

-Mark

locosway
01-10-2011, 6:11 AM
Glocks hold 30 rounds?!!?

You know what pisses me off the most about these people, is they have zero idea what they are talking about. A 30 round clip...wtf is a 30 round clip.

No no, they said 30 bullet clip... I'm still trying to figure out how that works... Does the gun manufacture the ammo before it shoots it?

yellowfin
01-10-2011, 7:13 AM
I wonder if the politician had been hit by a car if they'd discuss banning Toyotas.

HowardW56
01-10-2011, 7:20 AM
I wonder if the politician had been hit by a car if they'd discuss banning Toyotas.

:rofl2:

Dutch3
01-10-2011, 7:37 AM
I wonder if the politician had been hit by a car if they'd discuss banning Toyotas.

Only if Toyotas came with a 30-round clip filled with faulty accelerator pedals.

NoahH
01-10-2011, 7:39 AM
Surprised no one has mentioned how/if the new Healthcare bill will help reach out to the mentally ill and treat them, a measure that might actually have done something to prevent this. Oh wait, that would be proactive....

Ed_in_Sac
01-10-2011, 7:40 AM
What bothers me is this morning CNN is claiming the shooting had nothing to do with politics??? Really, so the shooter just randomly picked her and the judge out as victims?

Spin, politics is all about spin.

Mind you, my heart goes out for the victims and their family members. It is shameful that the press is already using each one to achieve a political goal.

jdberger
01-10-2011, 7:57 AM
I think that with revalations that the shooter was a Lefty (or Center-Left at best) it's better for their storyline if the assassination attempt isn't about politics.

Just like the Ft. Hood shooting wasn't about religion. :rolleyes:

Sealawyer
01-10-2011, 7:57 AM
reading this, I am so glad we can only have 10 round mags in Kali--- makes me feel so much safer!

Dutch3
01-10-2011, 8:11 AM
reading this, I am so glad we can only have 10 round mags in Kali--- makes me feel so much safer!

Wait until we are only allowed to have 10 rounds in our possession. I can see it now...CRV on the casings and you have to turn in the empties to buy more.

Maybe 10 is too little, perhaps they would allow them to be sold in a 12-pack. We would only have to supply a small DNA sample upon purchase.

The sad thing is, the demnannies would convince the greenlibs it is "green" and a form of recycling.

gatdammit
01-10-2011, 8:12 AM
I wonder if the politician had been hit by a car if they'd discuss banning Toyotas.

Seriously... I can't imagine how much damage a car would have done ramming into a crowd, and possibly getting into the super market. If he had run a bunch of people over, no one would be saying anything about a car.

J.D.Allen
01-10-2011, 8:24 AM
Glocks hold 30 rounds?!!?

You know what pisses me off the most about these people, is they have zero idea what they are talking about. A 30 round clip...wtf is a 30 round clip.

You mean a "30 bullet clip"? :rofl2:

J.D.Allen
01-10-2011, 8:33 AM
Here is the reason so many people died - NOT ONE AMERICAN IN THE VICINITY OF THE SHOOTER WAS EXERCISING HIS 2ND AMENDMENT RIGHTS!

Unlike in California, this shooter could have been stopped. But, people were just too lazy and foolish to carry a weapon.

Correct. I was carrying at a grocery store in Yuma about the time this happened. If I had been at that store I might have at least had a chance at stopping him before he killed that many people...or at least distracting him to shoot back at me while others tackled him or something. This is probably one of the things that most surprises me about this. Being that it was in AZ and no one else there was armed...terrible.

dfletcher
01-10-2011, 8:38 AM
Here is the reason so many people died - NOT ONE AMERICAN IN THE VICINITY OF THE SHOOTER WAS EXERCISING HIS 2ND AMENDMENT RIGHTS!

Unlike in California, this shooter could have been stopped. But, people were just too lazy and foolish to carry a weapon.

Kind of true - a fellow was on TV last night, said he was shopping inside and on the checkout line when he heard the shooting. He was carrying and responded but was too late.

At this point, if someone did say "yes I was 'on scene' and carrying" it probably wouldn't be helpful. I think the question would be asked why they didn't respond with force - "what good is carrying if the guy shoots 30 times before the legally armed citizen responds?" sort of thing.

J.D.Allen
01-10-2011, 8:44 AM
Wow, some of the comments left would lead one to believe that my Glock 19 is an assualt weapon... :hide:

Stupid lemming anti's... :mad:

Right. I can't wait until the anti legislators start trying to explain how a Glock 9mm isn't commonly in use as a defensive weapon... :rofl2:

Chester
01-10-2011, 8:50 AM
They're just saying that because Glocks are black and scary looking. Someone should use their own insanity against them and make an accusation of racism.

Ron-Solo
01-10-2011, 8:55 AM
Well, I got my comment in before the NYT locked it. :D

The Shadow
01-10-2011, 8:59 AM
Here is the reason so many people died - NOT ONE AMERICAN IN THE VICINITY OF THE SHOOTER WAS EXERCISING HIS 2ND AMENDMENT RIGHTS!

Unlike in California, this shooter could have been stopped. But, people were just too lazy and foolish to carry a weapon.

FOX News interviewed one of the citizens that helped subdue the shooter. He was carrying, but chose not to shoot because of the concentration of people around the shooter. He was concerned about causing collateral damage and sending more people into panic, so he kept his gun holstered and just assisted with restraining the shooter. Quite frankly, I think he was the best national example of how clear thinking the average CCW holder is. I'm sure there were others there as well, and perhaps they made the same assessment to not shoot and avoid hitting others.

Wildeman_13
01-10-2011, 9:08 AM
CCW in the crowd or not, the killer still would have done what he did. I was not there, but I can imagine that people were running, and ducking and trying to get out of the way. The odds that you as a CCW in that crowd would have a SAFE clean shot are slim to nil. Add to this that any responding officers or other CCW holders might mistake you for the bad guy makes tackling the guy the best and really only option unless he was somehow away from the people after the first 5 or 6 shots. I say 5 or 6 because I figure thats about how many the killer could get off before your brain figure out not only that someone was shooting, but where the shooting was coming from, and picking him out of the running/scattering crowd. I guess my point here is that as nice as it sounds to say that a hero with a CCW should have been there to shoot the killer as he drew out his Glock "with 30 bullet clip", the reality is that the heros should have been and were the ones who tackled and disarmed the killer as soon as they could.

zoglog
01-10-2011, 9:25 AM
I wonder if the politician had been hit by a car if they'd discuss banning Toyotas.

you wish, Cars are too essential to the majority way of life. Not an accurate comparison.

we all know why the 10 rnd magazine limit is useless, because it's so easy to obtain them out of state as rebuilds so using California law as example is inaccurate as well. Either way it's legislating to the minority so for me it's doubly annoying.

The Shadow
01-10-2011, 9:28 AM
Well, I got my comment in before the NYT locked it. :D

The Arizona shooting was a tragedy, there is no other way to describe it. It highlights the breakdown of the mental health system throughout this country.

To blame this incident on a Glock handgun is like trying to blame Chevy because a drunk driver ran down a bunch of school kids in an Impala.

Glock handguns were specifically designed for personal protection. They are the most common choice for America's law enforcement officers becuase of their reliability and safety features. The concerns over a dropped Glock handgun discharging are based on ignorance, not scientific fact. They are specifically designed to NOT discharge when dropped, which is a common feature on most modern handguns.

This opinion is filled with so much misinformation that it now lacks credibility. The author should actually do some research before listening to the retoric from the Brady Anti-gun campaign and LCAV.

Most modern semi-automatic handguns come with magazines with a capacity between 10-17 rounds, depending on the manufacturer and caliber. California, and a few other states, have magazine capacity restrictions of 10 rounds, except for law enforcement. The magazine restrictions were enacted to curb gun violence, but in actuality have no impact on crime. These draconian laws only make it harder for honest American's to defend themselves.

Criminals do not care about these types of laws. It is illegal to shoot someone, so why would a person who plans to shoot someone care about a 10 round magazine limit. Because of my training, I can fire and reload a six shot revolver as fast and accurately as most can fire a "30 shot" Glock

I have been a police officer for the last 32 years. I have seen my share of violence and have been shot at many times. Blaming the gun, the magazine capacity, or an American's Constitutional Right To Keep and Bear Arms is unaceptable.

With that, my thoughts and prayers are with the victims and families of the Tuscon shooting.



:iagree:

stinkfinger
01-10-2011, 9:42 AM
Glocks hold 30 rounds?!!?

You know what pisses me off the most about these people, is they have zero idea what they are talking about. A 30 round clip...wtf is a 30 round clip.

I was going to say the same thing. The only clips I know about go in girls' hair. But I won't be the one to tell him.:D

GP3
01-10-2011, 9:46 AM
A 9mm Glock is "not suited for personal protection"? Helmke must be a 1911 guy.

:rofl:

rexbo47
01-10-2011, 10:00 AM
"a technology the founders could never have imagined"

A statement that could also include the Colt revolver and the Henry rifle.

Bhobbs
01-10-2011, 10:03 AM
"a technology the founders could never have imagined"

A statement that could also include the Colt revolver and the Henry rifle.

Same with the computer, telephone, television, signal lamps, Morse code, and any other forms of communication that did not exist back then but I don't think any of them would argue that they are not protected by the 1st Amendment.

Could you imagine if the only way your speech was protected is if you hand wrote letters, used a manual printing press or spoke?

maddoggie13
01-10-2011, 10:03 AM
Glock should suit him and ask how many PD uses Glock....

Curtis
01-10-2011, 10:04 AM
Well, I got my comment in before the NYT locked it. :D

Great response! And thank you for your service.

Decoligny
01-10-2011, 10:09 AM
Here is the reason so many people died - NOT ONE AMERICAN IN THE VICINITY OF THE SHOOTER WAS EXERCISING HIS 2ND AMENDMENT RIGHTS!

Unlike in California, this shooter could have been stopped. But, people were just too lazy and foolish to carry a weapon.

Learn to think before you post.

One of the individuals who helped subdue the shooter was a CCW holder who was armed at the time.

Any shooter that pulls a gun without any warning and immediately starts firing is probably going to be able to empty his first magazine before anyone has time to process the information, much less react to it effectively.

This is what happened here. He emptied his first magazine and was then rushed while dropping the expended mag. A woman grabbed the full magazine that he was preparing to insert into the weapon.

At this point he was effectively no longer a threat in respect to shooting anyone, so nobody had to shoot him. They physically subdued him and held him down until the police arrived.

locosway
01-10-2011, 10:13 AM
Learn to think before you post.

One of the individuals who helped subdue the shooter was a CCW holder who was armed at the time.

Any shooter that pulls a gun without any warning and immediately starts firing is probably going to be able to empty his first magazine before anyone has time to process the information, much less react to it effectively.

This is what happened here. He emptied his first magazine and was then rushed while dropping the expended mag. A woman grabbed the full magazine that he was preparing to insert into the weapon.

At this point he was effectively no longer a threat in respect to shooting anyone, so nobody had to shoot him. They physically subdued him and held him down until the police arrived.

This is the same point I've been driving. People keep saying they'd have dropped him in 1 second. I argued they wouldn't even know what was going on in 3 seconds, and would likely be trying to figure it out.

Only the people directly next to him knew what was happening, and even then they still have to assess the situation and make sure he's actually a bad guy.

It doesn't take long to empty a mag, especially into a group of people.

CalBear
01-10-2011, 10:16 AM
Well, I got my comment in before the NYT locked it. :D
Thanks for posting that comment -- it summarizes my thoughts exactly. Glocks are practically the definition of a personal defense weapon. Anyone who thinks they're designed for anything else is a complete buffoon.

70extreme
01-10-2011, 10:17 AM
FOX News interviewed one of the citizens that helped subdue the shooter. He was carrying, but chose not to shoot because of the concentration of people around the shooter. He was concerned about causing collateral damage and sending more people into panic, so he kept his gun holstered and just assisted with restraining the shooter. Quite frankly, I think he was the best national example of how clear thinking the average CCW holder is. I'm sure there were others there as well, and perhaps they made the same assessment to not shoot and avoid hitting others.

I stand corrected. I was wrong.

CalBear
01-10-2011, 10:21 AM
I stand corrected. I was wrong.
I think your general idea is right, but ya one of the guys was a CCW. Carrying citizens are extremely beneficial in slow, calculated mass murders -- Luby's, VTech, Columbine, etc. In these cases, there is ample time to hear shots, react, identify the shooter, wait for a clearing, and take the best opportunity. It wasn't the same in this case, because things unfolded so fast, and because there were large crowds. Still, it's good that one of the guys helping to restrain had a CCW. He would have been able to act had the guy broken free and flipped out again.

harley66
01-10-2011, 10:23 AM
Kind of true - a fellow was on TV last night, said he was shopping inside and on the checkout line when he heard the shooting. He was carrying and responded but was too late.

At this point, if someone did say "yes I was 'on scene' and carrying" it probably wouldn't be helpful. I think the question would be asked why they didn't respond with force - "what good is carrying if the guy shoots 30 times before the legally armed citizen responds?" sort of thing.

according to everything I have heard and read - this guy got off his first mag in just about 15 seconds - while trying to reload - thats when the lady grabed the second mag and the 'armed' guy in the walgreens ran outside - he was one of the two guys the tackled the shooter... He was ON Camera and said he heard the shots - ran out side and that was when he say the lady grab the mag and he and another guy tackled the shooter.. wether there were other armed ctizens on scene - it is not know.. it all happend in under 20 seconds... thats fast..


had other armed citizens started shooting at random - it would have been a mess and most likley hurt more people.. This guy that came out of Walgreens acted well - he said, he didn't have time to shoot and saw it was NOT needed... his action saved lives in a smart way...

I agree, had the shooter reloaded and was walking around shooting people in a slower way - someone on scene would most likley engaged him. There just wasn't time.

My heart goes out to ALL at the scene and to the family's involved..

missiondude
01-10-2011, 10:29 AM
Correct. I was carrying at a grocery store in Yuma about the time this happened. If I had been at that store I might have at least had a chance at stopping him before he killed that many people...or at least distracting him to shoot back at me while others tackled him or something. This is probably one of the things that most surprises me about this. Being that it was in AZ and no one else there was armed...terrible.

Do we really know that ther were no armed folks in the audience? Maybe there were and the just froze up deer in headlight style. Hard to say what the average untrained person would do in that situation. Training can make you act quickly and decisively, but an untrained person would probably not rise to the occasion.

jl123
01-10-2011, 10:33 AM
according to everything I have heard and read - this guy got off his first mag in just about 15 seconds - while trying to reload - thats when the lady grabed the second mag and the 'armed' guy in the walgreens ran outside - he was one of the two guys the tackled the shooter... He was ON Camera and said he heard the shots - ran out side and that was when he say the lady grab the mag and he and another guy tackled the shooter.. wether there were other armed ctizens on scene - it is not know.. it all happend in under 20 seconds... thats fast..


had other armed citizens started shooting at random - it would have been a mess and most likley hurt more people.. This guy that came out of Walgreens acted well - he said, he didn't have time to shoot and saw it was NOT needed... his action saved lives in a smart way...

I agree, had the shooter reloaded and was walking around shooting people in a slower way - someone on scene would most likley engaged him. There just wasn't time.

My heart goes out to ALL at the scene and to the family's involved..

In the interview I saw he said he ran out and the guy was already on the ground and he didn't pull his gun because he saw that the slide was locked back on the gunman's Glock. At that point he helped detain the gunman.

Stonewalker
01-10-2011, 10:42 AM
Helmke and the Brady bunch are going to go full court press on this one...Although I don't know why they bring up the Federal AW ban...it would've had absolutely no bearing on this firearm. Unless they mean the newer version put forward by the "It's a shoulder thing that goes up" Congresswoman McCarthy.

NY Times Op Ed: Right to Bear Glocks? (http://www.nytimes.com/2011/01/10/opinion/10collins.html)

This is just a sample of what's coming:



I can't tell you how much I am thankful to have a Republican contrloled congress again...but I fear even that will not be enough to stop some kind of legislation from being enacted. What it looks like...time will only tell.

The Huffington Post is ablaze with blog posts blaming the lack of adequate gun control. I hope this blows over soon. I agree with the OP, thank God for a Rep controlled congress right now. Also this highlights why we need the NRA, even if I don't agree with all they say and do, they are extremely important to RKBA.

What a tragedy for all the victims and families...

J.D.Allen
01-10-2011, 10:59 AM
Do we really know that ther were no armed folks in the audience? Maybe there were and the just froze up deer in headlight style. Hard to say what the average untrained person would do in that situation. Training can make you act quickly and decisively, but an untrained person would probably not rise to the occasion.

Yeah, I posted that before I knew that one of the people that tackled him was actually carrying. I also didnt' know as much about the situation when I posted that. IMO he made a very good decision in how to handle the situation. If he had started shooting too things could have gotten worse.

Of course every situation is different and all factors have to be taken into account before deciding how to react. I think most parties present did about as much as could be done under the circumstances.

I also think that this is a great example of how CCW holders are not just mindless gun toting hot heads who want to start shooting over nothing at the drop of a hat. It should be used as an example of how the average CCW is a rational thinking person who would much rather use restraint than their weapon.

Purdey
01-10-2011, 11:21 AM
>

lDiQthsOS4Q



The anti's are at it. Let's hope we don't get a knee jerk reaction from law makers. Sheriff's 3:04 comment sucks. Actually, from what he has said, I'm not liking him too much. Comeon! I hate this talk about speech having consequences, give me a break.

@3:04 -- I don't want people with felonious or mental health histories carrying firearms either...

The sheriff made one great point. The churning hatred and bigotry directed towards gov't seems to be most closely embraced by the mentally impaired...

captbilly
01-10-2011, 2:08 PM
If as gun owners our only response to this, and every other multiple shooting, is that the "liberal media" is presenting this incorrectly, then we risk becoming irrelevant to the conversation. Saying that this was "just a crazy guy" doesn't begin to ease the anxiety that average Americans have about some gun owners. The answer has to be a recognition that a gun in the hands of a "crazy" person can be incredibly dangerous, and as a community we are going to do everything possible to insure that we keep guns away from people like this. I don't have an answer about how to keep guns away from crazy people but it is a question that will need an answer if we are going to continue to be able to buy our ARs, AKs, Glocks and such.

There are plenty of people that I know who I feel should not own guns, but there are others who I would have no problem seeing with a 6 barrel mini gun. To me it is not about a type of gun that should be outlawed but finding a way of keeping guns away from unstable or violent people. Would this guy have done less damage with a Glock with a 10 round magazine, probably, but he would have done even less damage with no gun at all. Would I do more damage with a AR with a detachable 30 round magazine than I would with a fixed 10 round, no, because I would never shoot anyone either way. When I was a B-52 pilot I had to be part of the so called PRP program (personnel reliability program) because I was dealing with nuclear weapons. That program would clearly be too cumbersome to use as the model for determining who should be able to own a firearm but something along those lines might make sense. Some kind of ongoing training program that insured that gun owners were both safe with their guns and that they weren't showing signs of unstable behavior.

We may not like it but we don't live in the same country that the Founding Fathers lived in. Our population today is well over 100 times what it was in 1776 and guns have become far more affordable and deadly. I completely support the right to bear arms, but even in 1776 I am sure that Geo Washington wouldn't have wanted his crazy cousin Samuel (just made that up) or that crazy gun who lives in the shack down by the river, having a bunch of guns. Lets lead the way with this rather than letting idiots in State and Federal government decide that the answer lies in another "assault weapons" ban.

domino
01-10-2011, 2:44 PM
Samuel (just made that up) or that crazy gun who lives in the shack down by the river, having a bunch of guns. Lets lead the way with this rather than letting idiots in State and Federal government decide that the answer lies in another "assault weapons" ban.

If the crazy guy would have been out of control and did something stupid like this back then, then he would have either been shot on site or hung. Today it will take years to get through the process. Im not disagreeing with you, but it is just a simple fact, we have too much political correctness, thus allowing for me of this. I keep hearing how he is mentally disturbed, it was glenn becks fault, it was sarah palins fault.

Maybe there are just nuts in our society. Could he have done the same thing with a knife, he could have ran up to her table and started jabbing her in the head and others standing around at the time. Would it have mattered if he only had 5 - 10 round mags on him? Could he have just gunned a car into her crowd? Could he have ran up there and threw caustic acid on them? Or throw a stick of tnt at them? If someone is going to carry out a sinister plot as this, they are going to use whatever means possible to disptach that plot.
My point is, there are crazies all over the place, attacking gun owners or gun rights is not the root of the issue. The real issue is there have been many people warning about this guy and nobody did anything about it, why? Because you have to be politically correct.

Now I just heard that it was Marijuana that made him do this. I was shocked to hear that he wasnt too lazy to get up and go do something like this.

As for more control or new laws - lets not forget, that Congress is now a conservative majority. Legislation starts in the house, then goes to Senate. The Senate does not start legislation, So we will have to see how this plays out. I would be suprised to see much change. They all know they are on notice as to the populus' voting record since November, some organizations have already sent letters to them to let them know they are being watched on how they vote.

kf6tac
01-10-2011, 2:51 PM
Legislation starts in the house, then goes to Senate. The Senate does not start legislation, So we will have to see how this plays out. I would be suprised to see much change.

That's only true of legislation for raising revenue; all other legislation can originate from either house.

J.D.Allen
01-10-2011, 3:02 PM
Could he have done the same thing with a knife? The answer is yes. There was a guy in Japan a few years ago who went nuts and started stabbing people. Killed 7 before someone could stop him. At the time I told an anti colleague of mine "see, it can be done with a knife too". His response was "imagine how many more he would have killed if he had a gun". But really, I don't think that's true. At that close range I really don't think there's anything more lethal about a gun than a knife. In fact at that range I am much more afraid of a knife than a gun. It is much easier to disarm someone with a gun or render the gun unuseable than it is to stop someone stabbing with a knife.

About 5 years or so ago an old man (around 80 years old) plowed through a farmers' market in L.A. with his car and killed ten people. They said he hit the gas instead of the brake by mistake. As close as these people were together, he probably could have killed more of them with a car then he did with a gun.

Further gun control laws do NOTHING to stop things like this. It's all just a bunch of reactionary hype.

That Sheriff is just another gun grabbing anti waiting for a tragedy to spout his agenda from his soap box. "Let no good crisis go to waste". Right?

What I really want to know, and what we haven't heard yet, is if this guy was a prohibited person, and if this was a legally obtained gun. The sherrif said he had past legal problems. Was he prohibited? Does anyone know?

domino
01-10-2011, 3:07 PM
That's only true of legislation for raising revenue; all other legislation can originate from either house.

True my bad, it is funding that starts in congress.

domino
01-10-2011, 3:11 PM
What I really want to know, and what we haven't heard yet, is if this guy was a prohibited person, and if this was a legally obtained gun. The sherrif said he had past legal problems. Was he prohibited? Does anyone know?

It has been reported that yes he was leagl to purchase - He is said to have leaglly purchased it in November form a sprtsmans warehouse. They said it is leaglly registered to him, in fact the brady bunch is using it to point out that it is a loophole in the laws.

B Strong
01-10-2011, 3:15 PM
captbilly has fallen victim to an old conceit - if we just throw somebody out of the sleigh, the wolves will eat them and leave us alone.

There is no gun control law proposed or on the books that would have or did stop this guy, and it's foolish to suggest that we as gun owners pretend that gun control is a good idea to sooth other people's fears.

mej16489
01-10-2011, 3:21 PM
It has been reported that yes he was leagl to purchase - He is said to have leaglly purchased it in November form a sprtsmans warehouse. They said it is leaglly registered to him, in fact the brady bunch is using it to point out that it is a loophole in the laws.

Is there handgun registration in AZ?!?

paradox
01-10-2011, 3:22 PM
About 5 years or so ago an old man (around 80 years old) plowed through a farmers' market in L.A. with his car and killed ten people. They said he hit the gas instead of the brake by mistake. As close as these people were together, he probably could have killed more of them with a car then he did with a gun.

About a decade ago in Santa Barbara, a crazy young male decided to murder as many people as he could using the car his parents sent him off to college in (his parents knew he was a nutter and had institutionalized him before, but still gave him a murder machine). Killed four, messed up another. The car came to a rest less than a block from where I was at the time. Worst part of it all, the ****er got a nice hospital bed on an insanity plea instead of the prison he deserved because his parents coughed up big bucks to lawyer him out of murder.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isla_Vista_massacre

No body tried to ban cars after that incident (though Isle Vista would be much better without cars, it wouldn't necessarily be safer)

Glock21sfsd
01-10-2011, 3:23 PM
“not suited for hunting or personal protection,” WTF-Over
That guys is a major dumb dumb...........I am no expert but the Glock is what allot of cops carry right? And how is any different then anyother semi auto pistol?

gbp
01-10-2011, 3:26 PM
It appears that Sherriff Dupnik is spouting his political spew to cover up his own inactions.

""The sheriff has been editorializing and politicizing the event since he took the podium to report on the incident. His blaming of radio personalities and bloggers is a pre-emptive strike because Mr. Dupnik knows this tragedy lays at his feet and his office. Six people died on his watch and he could have prevented it. He needs to step up and start apologizing to the families of the victims instead of spinning this event to serve his own political agenda.....................

Jared Loughner has been making death threats by phone to many people in Pima County including staff of Pima Community College, radio personalities and local bloggers. When Pima County Sheriff’s Office was informed, his deputies assured the victims that he was being well managed by the mental health system. It was also suggested that further pressing of charges would be unnecessary and probably cause more problems than it solved as Jared Loughner has a family member that works for Pima County...........""

you can read the rest plus the comments here
http://thechollajumps.wordpress.com/2011/01/09/jared-loughner-is-a-product-of-sheriff-dupniks-office/

Dreaded Claymore
01-10-2011, 3:26 PM
What bothers me is this morning CNN is claiming the shooting had nothing to do with politics??? Really, so the shooter just randomly picked her and the judge out as victims?

Spin, politics is all about spin.

Mind you, my heart goes out for the victims and their family members. It is shameful that the press is already using each one to achieve a political goal.

I think that with revalations that the shooter was a Lefty (or Center-Left at best) it's better for their storyline if the assassination attempt isn't about politics.

Just like the Ft. Hood shooting wasn't about religion. :rolleyes:

This shooting appears to be about politics. The Fort Hood shooting appeared to be about religion. Paul Helmke is telling anyone who will listen that this shooting is about guns.

None of them are correct.

This shooting is about crazy.

Glock21sfsd
01-10-2011, 3:28 PM
This shooting appears to be about politics. The Fort Hood shooting appeared to be about religion. Paul Helmke is telling anyone who will listen that this shooting is about guns.

None of them are correct.

This shooting is about crazy.

+1

Some poeple are just plain crazy and thats what this is about!

jdberger
01-10-2011, 3:32 PM
Is there handgun registration in AZ?!?

No.

OneFunGuy
01-10-2011, 4:23 PM
From what I have been able to put together ...

A few hours before, the shooter went to buy ammo at a Walgreen's and was
turned down (?). He went to a second Walgreen's and got his ammo.

He had three 33 round mags with him. He emptied the first mag and was then
tackled by the Army guy. Cops say the first mag was loaded with only 31.

The young man that was carrying, then arrived and helped hold the shooter.
The older lady, who was also helping, grabbed the 2nd mag when the shooter
attempted to reload.

The young man that was carrying said he was not afraid and felt he was on
a level playing field BECAUSE he was carrying. There was no need to draw
because the shooter was already down.

Which was the correct choice ... imagine being mistaken for the shooter!

santacruzstefan
01-10-2011, 5:15 PM
I was listening to Talk of the Nation on NPR today, and some whining gun grabber called in and began berating gun owners, and saying, essentially, the gun culture was responsible for this. The AZ state senator who was on responded, saying it was foolish to blame guns and law abiding gun owners for this incident. They let the nut get the last word though, something to the effect of "try telling the mother of the 9 yr old who was killed that guns don't kill." I started yelling at my radio... these are the types of emotion-driven fools we are up against, and I don't know how you change their faulty perspective. I'm not sure its possible, unless they are raped, or robbed, or experience something in which having a firearm might have changed the outcome for the better.

zoglog
01-10-2011, 5:53 PM
Can we just blame this on Bin Laden and move on?

Scott Connors
01-10-2011, 7:36 PM
Anybody remember the part in Dante's Divine Comedy where he and Virgil come across people in hell who mouths have been replaced by their anus so that when they talk excrement flows out? Helmke must have his reservation in for a spot there already.

jackandblood
01-10-2011, 7:58 PM
damn. You know when I first heard of the tragic news, I thought the whole firearm 2nd amendment ramifications from the incident peaked at Sunday. I mean the media is pretty fast to jump on these sort of things. So I kinda thought this morning would be as bad as it gets.

Then thoughout the day whilst listen to radio and running errands, I was appalled by what seem to be escalation by the minute. Then I get home turn on the tube and realize how naive I was. The thing is getting worse with no end in sight. I apologize for some of the comments I made in the off-topic thread. I was running on internet time, thinking ok the media had a day to digest this, we're ok. damn.

epilepticninja
01-10-2011, 8:10 PM
Here is the reason so many people died - NOT ONE AMERICAN IN THE VICINITY OF THE SHOOTER WAS EXERCISING HIS 2ND AMENDMENT RIGHTS!



That was what I was wondering. AZ lets everyone and their mother CCW, yet no one in the area had a pistola? wtf? If I lived there, I'd CCW in the shower just because I could.

Librarian
01-10-2011, 8:15 PM
That was what I was wondering. AZ lets everyone and their mother CCW, yet no one in the area had a pistola? wtf? If I lived there, I'd CCW in the shower just because I could.

You are behind in the news cycle; one of the folks who tackled the gunman was carrying, but the guy was actually down on the ground when he arrived - no opportunity to use a weapon.

zoglog
01-10-2011, 8:21 PM
Here is the reason so many people died - NOT ONE AMERICAN IN THE VICINITY OF THE SHOOTER WAS EXERCISING HIS 2ND AMENDMENT RIGHTS!

Unlike in California, this shooter could have been stopped. But, people were just too lazy and foolish to carry a weapon.

You watch too many movies....

The churning hatred and bigotry directed towards gov't seems to be most closely embraced by the mentally impaired...

Then how else is Glenn Beck going to convince you to buy gold from goldline? A small cost for profit, welcome to America

Crazed_SS
01-10-2011, 10:52 PM
Learn to think before you post.

One of the individuals who helped subdue the shooter was a CCW holder who was armed at the time.

Any shooter that pulls a gun without any warning and immediately starts firing is probably going to be able to empty his first magazine before anyone has time to process the information, much less react to it effectively.

This is what happened here. He emptied his first magazine and was then rushed while dropping the expended mag. A woman grabbed the full magazine that he was preparing to insert into the weapon.

At this point he was effectively no longer a threat in respect to shooting anyone, so nobody had to shoot him. They physically subdued him and held him down until the police arrived.

Thank you.

So tired of keyboard commandos on gun boards acting like they would have instantly whipped out their trusty CCW after the first shot was fired. From some of the interviews Ive seen on TV of people who there, it seems like the whole thing was over in 30 seconds.

By the time the people who did have guns realized what was going on and assessed the situation, the guy was already being subdued while trying to reload.

Crazed_SS
01-10-2011, 10:55 PM
...Although I don't know why they bring up the Federal AW ban...

They're probably focusing on the extended mag. It would have been restricted under the old Fed AWB.

nick
01-10-2011, 11:02 PM
They're probably focusing on the extended mag. It would have been restricted under the old Fed AWB.

Yep, that's the angle I've seen so far. The way some people make it sound is that the whole shooting would've been averted if only he didn't have that large mag.

Rugerdaddy
01-10-2011, 11:25 PM
Glocks hold 30 rounds?!!?

Y A 30 round clip...wtf is a 30 round clip.

I think it's a bigger version of the 10 round magazine that we'll be carrying when something bad happens and we need eleven bullets. :rolleyes:

Paul S
01-10-2011, 11:38 PM
ABC Nightline ..beating the drums. "...with a 31 shot Glock...."

Please show me the pistol with a 31 round magazine...please....:mad:

faterikcartman
01-10-2011, 11:49 PM
So they're saying a majority of the nation's police are just arming themselves to hurt a lot of people quickly and hunt people, rather than defend themselves?

stormy_clothing
01-11-2011, 10:29 AM
sorry I must have misread the article but it didnt seem to be any more about glocks than to name the brand used, the article did however seem to focus on the 33 round mag which is for all intensive purposes uneeded.

but then so is the v-8, seven figure salaries, large families, vacation homes, international travel, trips to vegas, getting drunk, cheap sex, fist fights at sports games.

Why dont we just say life is pointless and unnecessary and all things that deviate from some ever shifting set of core values by people who don't follow the own principles but who rule as a dictatorship should be illegal which at some point will be everything.

And I'll just overlook the trail of destruction these people have wrought on america in the name of us there children - yea america is so much fun now and so worth living in because of your selfish efforts.