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View Full Version : more on open carry Florida


vantec08
01-08-2011, 6:45 AM
http://www.wesh.com/news/26407708/detail.html


open carry with a PERMIT? hmmmmmmmm

Liberty1
01-08-2011, 7:06 AM
Baby steps toward Constitutional Carry.

GaryV
01-08-2011, 8:36 AM
I love many things about Florida, and they do have some great attitudes towards guns. But, like California, Florida is an extremely diverse state, with all the problems that come with that. And one of those is that there is a very strong "worthy vs. unworthy" attitude in the sate. What I mean by that is that, while gun owners in Florida are all for their 2nd Amendment freedoms, they're very often not so much for everyone else's.

Very few would even be receptive to the idea of "Vermont style" or "constitutional" carry, either openly or concealed, because there is a very strong feeling among a lot of people that there are wide swaths of the population that shouldn't have that right. Many of them simply don't like the idea of "criminals" being legally allowed to carry a gun, and oppose un-permitted carry just because of that, even though such people would most likely be prohibited under federal law anyway. Also, much of Florida has a very strong anti-immigrant bent because of the state's history with the Mariel boat lift, and lots of immigration from Latin America and the rest of the Caribbean. Plus, once you get away from South Florida, most of the rest of the state is very much still a part of the Deep South, so plain ole racism is still pretty strong in a lot of places. Remember that Florida is the one state where there is an actual court record of a state supreme court justice admitting to the racist reasoning behind a state gun control law.

The other part of this is that because the state generally has relatively lax gun laws, there isn't much passion among gun owners about the areas in which this isn't so. The open carry movement there is the only real excitement over gun issues I've seen there in a long time. People also tend to be much more lax about minor violations of their constitutional rights in deference to "law and order", and are much more likely to support LEOs in a situation of low to moderate violation of rights than in California. It's only when a LEO gets caught red-handed doing something that offends even common sensibilities (like blatantly framing an innocent person), that they don't get the benefit of the doubt.

So permit-based open carry is not surprising to me at all. The great thing about the proposed law, SB 234, is that it does a lot more than just legalize open carry. It also legalizes campus carry for colleges and universities, something that is LONG overdue. Additionally, it simplifies the state's earlier screwed-up attempt at allowing guns to be stored in parked cars. Instead of putting all kinds of idiotic exemptions in to appease big employers like Disney, it just says "concealed license holders may not be prohibited from storing their guns locked in their cars." It also simplifies the process of applying for a CWL by allowing you to be fingerprinted by the same people to whom you submit your application, rather than requiring it to be done by a separate agency.

At the same time, there is a separate bill that I really like as well, HB 45, which strengthens the state's preemption law. Currently, since the preemption law has no enforcement language in it, cities and counties frequently post "no gun" signs in parks and other government owned properties that are not prohibited places under state law. And they are often dismissive of those who point out to them that this is in violation of the state preemption law. The current law also allows individual counties to institute a waiting period of up to 5 days for gun purchases. This law would first do away with all waiting periods. But even better, it makes the intentional violation of the preemption law a felony. Here's what a local or county official, and whatever agency they work for, would face for intentionally violating the law:

Potential third degree felony conviction
No public funding for defense of individual charged
Possible firing/termination of the individual by the Governor
Up to $5 million in fines to the political entity
Prosecution by the State Attorney
Award of attorney's fees to the prevailing party

Now this is how all laws limiting government authority should be written!

vantec08
01-08-2011, 9:08 AM
This law would first do away with all waiting periods. But even better, it makes the intentional violation of the preemption law a felony. Here's what a local or county official, and whatever agency they work for, would face for intentionally violating the law:


wow . . .. as in wow

GaryV
01-08-2011, 9:30 AM
wow . . .. as in wow

I know. I have a hard time believing that politicians would actually pass a law that would potentially put their fellow vermin in prison for something as trivial as violating citizens' constitutional rights, but I'm cautiously optimistic.

N6ATF
01-08-2011, 12:37 PM
This law would first do away with all waiting periods. But even better, it makes the intentional violation of the preemption law a felony. Here's what a local or county official, and whatever agency they work for, would face for intentionally violating the law:

Key word being intentional. Expect all victim disarmers to suddenly act as if they dropped to retarded IQ level in order to get away with their treason.

GaryV
01-08-2011, 12:53 PM
Key word being intentional. Expect all victim disarmers to suddenly act as if they dropped to retarded IQ level in order to get away with their treason.

Well, that's already happened in one case, where Palm Beach County officials claimed they didn't know any better when people informed them of their violation. But even if no one ever gets charged, the good thing about it is that if it passes anyone who does step over the line will take citizen complaints a lot more seriously. Imagine how Calguns's CCW initiative would be unfolding differently if that same kind of threat was hanging over the heads of CLEOs and LEAs for overstepping their authority.

kermit315
01-08-2011, 7:56 PM
I am hoping this passes. Scott will sign it. Also, I would love to carry open here. Its so damn hot and humid in the summer that carrying concealed is sometimes a pain.

tiki
01-09-2011, 6:52 AM
What exemptions did they put in place for Disney? I knew that Disney had some issues with the law but I thought it went through as is.

Window_Seat
01-09-2011, 10:05 AM
I know. I have a hard time believing that politicians would actually pass a law that would potentially put their fellow vermin in prison for something as trivial as violating citizens' constitutional rights, but I'm cautiously optimistic.

Some states (I know NH has attempted it) are trying or may have already successfully passed legislation that makes it either a misdemeanor or felony for a federal agent to enforce a federal regulation on someone subject to within their Firearm Freedom Act regulation.

Also, (coming from within my IANAL skull) a Sheriff or head of an issuing authority could be held in contempt for refusing to follow certain federal court orders, (eg. CCW issuance refusal).

But here in CA... It could happen in about :twoweeks:

What exemptions did they put in place for Disney? I knew that Disney had some issues with the law but I thought it went through as is.

Disney is private, and private entities have the right (so far) to say "Bad gun, no gun for you in Disneyland..."

Erik.

kermit315
01-09-2011, 10:49 AM
Disney is private, and private entities have the right (so far) to say "Bad gun, no gun for you in Disneyland..."

Erik.

TMK, as I dont go there and have never looked deep into it, they are just like any other private place in FL: They can say all they want. If they find out you are carrying, they can tell you to leave. If you dont, they can have you arrested for trespass.

GaryV
01-09-2011, 4:26 PM
What exemptions did they put in place for Disney? I knew that Disney had some issues with the law but I thought it went through as is.

Actually Window_Seat, it has nothing to do with Disney being private, as the law applies to private businesses as well as government parking lots. But there are several exemptions, including one for any business that stores certain items on their property. And Disney has been allowed to claim that their fireworks count. Almost as soon as the law passed there was an incident where a security guard at Disney World was fired for refusing to allow them to search his car for weapons, because he had said he intended to use the law to keep a gun in his car. BS 234 would do away with their exemption, and they're not happy about it.

TMK, as I dont go there and have never looked deep into it, they are just like any other private place in FL: They can say all they want. If they find out you are carrying, they can tell you to leave. If you dont, they can have you arrested for trespass.

This isn't about concealed carry, it's about the parking lot law that would allow employees and visitors to store their weapons in their locked cars in a business's parking lot so that they weren't carrying into a business that prohibited carry. Presently Disney gets an exemption because they have fireworks.