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jccam
01-07-2011, 5:28 PM
I checked the wikis at the following sites, but didn't find a clear answer:

http://wiki.calgunsfoundation.org/index.php/Gun_Free_School_Zones#Law
http://wiki.calgunsfoundation.org/index.php/Transporting

A friend plans to exhibit at an antique gun show, and is renting a van whose cargo area is sealed off (maybe a grate?) from the passenger area, although a show assistant might ride back there. I told him that I don't think the cargo area of a van qualifies as either a "trunk" or a "locked container," especially if someone is sitting back there (I could be wrong). Would he need a locked container for all the firearms, or is the cargo area of the van considered to be equivalent to a car's trunk?

Also, the revolvers and rifles going to the show are all pre-1899 antiques...does that make any difference regarding legal transportation? I don't see any exemption for antiques in those laws, but want to know if I overlooked something.

What does he need to do in order to be legal in going to/from the show, and avoid any issues with the GFSZ? Locked container or not?

Thanks!

Casey
01-07-2011, 7:34 PM
Same way I transport in my pick up truck.
All handguns: unloaded in locked container
All long guns: unloaded (I have them in proper cases or cover them up)

BKinzey
01-07-2011, 9:40 PM
...I don't think the cargo area of a van qualifies as either a "trunk" or a "locked container," especially if someone is sitting back there (I could be wrong). ..

I don't think having someone back there would make a difference since AFAIK having a person in your trunk isn't illegal.

JagerTroop
01-07-2011, 9:59 PM
I don't think having someone back there would make a difference since AFAIK having a person in your trunk isn't illegal.


I can't tell you the vehicle code (off the top of my head), but I believe it's illegal to ride in a non passenger area of a vehicle. Bed of a truck, in a trailer even if it's an RV, etc. Besides that, there are no seatbelts (usually).

However, if the rear cargo area is caged off, it should be sufficient as a "locked container".

I am not a lawyer.

five.five-six
01-07-2011, 10:03 PM
I don't think having someone back there would make a difference since AFAIK having a person in your trunk isn't illegal.

could be

http://whitehouser.com/img/newspaper/illegal.aliens.trunk.border.patrol.newsclip.jpg

jccam
01-10-2011, 5:10 PM
Where can I find solid legal evidence to show my friend that there is or is not an exemption to the GFSZ law for pre-1899 antiques?

It looks now that the cargo section of the van is not fenced off, but there will not be anyone riding back there.... so the "seat belt law" is not a concern. The problem is that one fellow is certain that pre-1899 antiques (old Colt single action revolvers and flintlock rifles) are NOT considered firearms according to Federal law, so everything is fine if they are unloaded and in soft cases, even when passing within 1000 feet of school. The other guy says, No, pre-1899 antiques are still subject to the GFSZ. My own position (in the middle, wary, prudent), is to check with the guys at CalGuns. But the show is coming up, so I really need your help to settle this, please.

Thanks!

Librarian
01-10-2011, 6:20 PM
Where can I find solid legal evidence to show my friend that there is or is not an exemption to the GFSZ law for pre-1899 antiques?

It looks now that the cargo section of the van is not fenced off, but there will not be anyone riding back there.... so the "seat belt law" is not a concern. The problem is that one fellow is certain that pre-1899 antiques (old Colt single action revolvers and flintlock rifles) are NOT considered firearms according to Federal law, so everything is fine if they are unloaded and in soft cases, even when passing within 1000 feet of school. The other guy says, No, pre-1899 antiques are still subject to the GFSZ. My own position (in the middle, wary, prudent), is to check with the guys at CalGuns. But the show is coming up, so I really need your help to settle this, please.

Thanks!

One of your friends is right - antiques are exempt.

Federal GFSZ is 18 USC 922 (q). 18 USC 921(a)(3) is the definitions for the chapter:
(a) As used in this chapter—
(1) The term “person” and the term “whoever” include any individual, corporation, company, association, firm, partnership, society, or joint stock company.
(2) The term “interstate or foreign commerce” includes commerce between any place in a State and any place outside of that State, or within any possession of the United States (not including the Canal Zone) or the District of Columbia, but such term does not include commerce between places within the same State but through any place outside of that State. The term “State” includes the District of Columbia, the Commonwealth of Puerto Rico, and the possessions of the United States (not including the Canal Zone).
(3) The term “firearm” means
(A) any weapon (including a starter gun) which will or is designed to or may readily be converted to expel a projectile by the action of an explosive;
(B) the frame or receiver of any such weapon;
(C) any firearm muffler or firearm silencer; or
(D) any destructive device.
Such term does not include an antique firearm.

...

(16) The term “antique firearm” means—
(A) any firearm (including any firearm with a matchlock, flintlock, percussion cap, or similar type of ignition system) manufactured in or before 1898; or
(B) any replica of any firearm described in subparagraph (A) if such replica—
(i) is not designed or redesigned for using rimfire or conventional centerfire fixed ammunition, or
(ii) uses rimfire or conventional centerfire fixed ammunition which is no longer manufactured in the United States and which is not readily available in the ordinary channels of commercial trade; or
(C) any muzzle loading rifle, muzzle loading shotgun, or muzzle loading pistol, which is designed to use black powder, or a black powder substitute, and which cannot use fixed ammunition. For purposes of this subparagraph, the term “antique firearm” shall not include any weapon which incorporates a firearm frame or receiver, any firearm which is converted into a muzzle loading weapon, or any muzzle loading weapon which can be readily converted to fire fixed ammunition by replacing the barrel, bolt, breechblock, or any combination thereof.

There is an oddity of printing that had me confused for years:
(3) The term “firearm” means
(A) any weapon...;
(B) the frame or receiver of any such weapon;
(C) any firearm muffler or firearm silencer; or
(D) any destructive device. Such term does not include an antique firearm.

(D) is printed funny at Cornell (http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/html/uscode18/usc_sec_18_00000921----000-.html). "such term" refers back to "the term 'firearm'", but for clarity it ought to have a paragraph break after the "." that follows "device" (I inserted one, above).

If I look at the Findlaw (http://codes.lp.findlaw.com/uscode/18/I/44/921) rendering, it's (3) The term "firearm" means (A) any weapon (including a starter gun) which will or is designed to or may readily be converted to expel a projectile by the action of an explosive; (B) the frame or receiver of any such weapon; (C) any firearm muffler or firearm silencer; or (D) any destructive device. Such term does not include an antique firearm.

NotEnufGarage
01-10-2011, 7:04 PM
I don't think having someone back there would make a difference since AFAIK having a person in your trunk isn't illegal.

Unless they're dead.. Luckily, my BMW came with instructions on exactly how to stow them.

81439

Sorry - I know it's off topic, but I couldn't resist after seeing that comment.

jccam
01-11-2011, 7:03 AM
So transporting unloaded and unlocked antique pistols and long guns violates no other laws?

Librarian
01-11-2011, 9:12 AM
So transporting unloaded and unlocked antique pistols and long guns violates no other laws?

Not Federal GFSZ for either, or state GFSZ for the long guns.

PC 12025 does not have an exception for antiques, though. Neither does 626.9. Follow 12026.1 locked case exception.

jccam
01-11-2011, 11:35 AM
Thanks for the reply.

So PC 12025 and 626.9 do not use the Federal definition of firearm?

Librarian
01-11-2011, 1:22 PM
Thanks for the reply.

So PC 12025 and 626.9 do not use the Federal definition of firearm?

Correct - they use the definition from PC 12001.

jccam
01-12-2011, 11:54 PM
OK, got it -- thank you for the info.