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dwtt
08-06-2006, 6:37 PM
Hi everyone,
does anyone know if the Imbel muzzle attachment with a series of holes drilled at an angle is considered a muzzle brake or a flash hider? I'm just trying to reduce the number of US made parts to a minimum. thanks.
.
http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f276/dwtt/Cimg0237.jpg

SemiAutoSam
08-06-2006, 6:54 PM
The expert on FN FAL's The late Blake Stevens calls that muzzle device a flash hider.

That is the correct grenade launching flash hider that is standard equipment on the FN FAL 50.00, 50.40, 50.41, 50.61, 50.63, 50.64. and a few more.

thedrickel
08-06-2006, 9:48 PM
That is a flash suppressor, no doubt about it. I would just leave it and look to up my parts count elsewhere.

dhl
08-06-2006, 11:00 PM
My understanding is that it's also considered a 'destructive device' by CA DOJ due to it's also being a grenade launcher.

C.G.
08-06-2006, 11:05 PM
My understanding is that it's also considered a 'destructive device' by CA DOJ due to it's also be a grenade launcher.

Correct, a big no-no in PRK. Replace with a brake, DSA or Entreprise work well.

JPglee1
08-07-2006, 7:34 AM
Hi everyone,
does anyone know if the Imbel muzzle attachment with a series of holes drilled at an angle is considered a muzzle brake or a flash hider? I'm just trying to reduce the number of US made parts to a minimum. thanks.
.
http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f276/dwtt/Cimg0237.jpg

I have a dummy hider that looks just like that, without the holes drilled thru all the way. Its not threaded either. Its made to slip on the end of an L1A1 barrel and be silver soldered on...

I'd be willing to sell it for $10 if you want it.


JP

Ravenslair
08-07-2006, 9:05 AM
You could also take it to a machine shop and have its diameter reduced from 22mm to less than 21mm. A quick trip on a lathe will take that illegal 1mm off in no time and leave you with the "original" look.

SemiAutoSam
08-07-2006, 9:11 AM
It might be a launching device or an aid to launch a grenade But I feel calling the Flash hider a destructive device is a bit much!!

From reading here I can see where someone who really wants this to be a DD can configure their mind into making it one. But for it to work correctly one would need to have grenade launching cartridges would one not ?

I suppose one could launch golf balls also with having such a device on their rifle But all joking aside one would have to have a grenade in their possesion to use this feature and having all but an inert grenade would place you in the catagory of a felony yes ?

If this actually does address the issue of launching grenades with your FN FAL its a bit much. or IMHO way beyond reasonable


http://caag.state.ca.us/firearms/dwcl/12301.htm

C.G.
08-07-2006, 10:18 AM
It might be a launching device or an aid to launch a grenade But I feel calling the Flash hider a destructive device is a bit much!!

Maybe someone can point it out in the doj's website listed below.

http://caag.state.ca.us/firearms/dwcl/12301.htm

CHAPTER 2.5. DESTRUCTIVE DEVICES

12301. (a) The term "destructive device," as used in this chapter, shall include any of the following weapons: (1) Any projectile containing any explosive or incendiary material or any other chemical substance, including, but not limited to, that which is commonly known as tracer or incendiary ammunition, except tracer ammunition manufactured for use in shotguns. (2) Any bomb, grenade, explosive missile, or similar device or any launching device therefor.

SemiAutoSam
08-07-2006, 10:27 AM
CHAPTER 2.5. DESTRUCTIVE DEVICES

12301. (a) The term "destructive device," as used in this chapter, shall include any of the following weapons: (1) Any projectile containing any explosive or incendiary material or any other chemical substance, including, but not limited to, that which is commonly known as tracer or incendiary ammunition, except tracer ammunition manufactured for use in shotguns. (2) Any bomb, grenade, explosive missile, or similar device or any launching device therefor.

ahhh but the flash hider is not a weapon.

C.G.
08-07-2006, 1:07 PM
ahhh but the flash hider is not a weapon.

Sam, you are trying to split hairs.

I may not be the smartest guy in the world, but this is fairly clear to me:
or any launching device therefor
this phrase makes it a weapon.

SemiAutoSam
08-07-2006, 4:13 PM
Sam, you are trying to split hairs.

I may not be the smartest guy in the world, but this is fairly clear to me:
or any launching device therefor
this phrase makes it a weapon.



No but the doj website does not state a flashhider is a DD. there are devices that are stand alone grenade launchers but the flash hider alone cannot launch a grenade it also has no ability without the proper grenade and or blank cartridge to launch. Having anything but an inert grenade in the first place is a Felony in this state. Just for clarification I spoke to DOJ and spoke to Sally there she stated that this section is a grey area and would be up to the 58 DA's and or various city attorneys to either prosecute or not.

and this law has been on the books since 1966 or so and the FN FAL has been imported into the US since 1958 with muzzle devices like this attached to the end of the barrels.

Common sence tells me that to launch a grenade one would need alot more than just a grenade which would in itself be a felony if one possessed it alone but also one would need the correct launching cartridge.

the KEY is just dont have the grenade or the launching cartridge.

End of Story

SemiAutoSam
08-07-2006, 4:42 PM
Good thing the FN FAL isnt a RPG ( ROCKET PROPELLED
GRENADE.) Nor is the flashhider of the FN FAL.

http://ag.ca.gov/firearms/zastava.htm

"Zastava SKS Carbines 59/66 are considered destructive devices in California and therefore may not be purchased, possessed, imported, or kept for sale without a permit."

Based on the information in the factory brochure, this grenade launcher is a destructive device, and enumerated as such in California Penal Code section 12301(a)(4). Possession of such a device can be a felony. Please contact us if you anticipate purchasing this weapon.


To ease reading I have made the pertinent area red and bold.

12301. (a) The term "destructive device," as used in this chapter, shall include any of the following weapons:
(1) Any projectile containing any explosive or incendiary material or any other chemical substance, including, but not limited to, that which is commonly known as tracer or incendiary ammunition, except tracer ammunition manufactured for use in shotguns.
(2) Any bomb, grenade, explosive missile, or similar device or any launching device therefor.
(3) Any weapon of a caliber greater than 0.60 caliber which fires fixed ammunition, or any ammunition therefor, other than a shotgun (smooth or rifled bore) conforming to the definition of a "destructive device" found in subsection (b) of Section 479.11 of Title 27 of the Code of Federal Regulations, shotgun ammunition (single projectile or shot), antique rifle, or an antique cannon. For purposes of this section, the term "antique cannon" means any cannon manufactured before January 1, 1899, which has been rendered incapable of firing or for which ammunition is no longer manufactured in the United States and is not readily available in the ordinary channels of commercial trade. The term "antique rifle" means a firearm conforming to the definition of an "antique firearm" in Section 479.11 of Title 27 of the Code of Federal Regulations.
(4) Any rocket, rocket-propelled projectile, or similar device of a diameter greater than 0.60 inch, or any launching device therefor, and any rocket, rocket-propelled projectile, or similar device containing any explosive or incendiary material or any other chemical substance, other than the propellant for that device, except those devices as are designed primarily for emergency or distress signaling purposes.
(5) Any breakable container which contains a flammable liquid with a flashpoint of 150 degrees Fahrenheit or less and has a wick or similar device capable of being ignited, other than a device which is commercially manufactured primarily for the purpose of illumination.
(6) Any sealed device containing dry ice (CO2) or other chemically reactive substances assembled for the purpose of causing an explosion by a chemical reaction.
(b) The term "explosive," as used in this chapter, shall mean any explosive defined in Section 12000 of the Health and Safety Code.

SemiAutoSam
08-07-2006, 5:07 PM
An SKS with a grenade launcher muzzle device attached is a destructive device even without the actual grenade or launching blank in your possession. However the FAL rifle with a similar grenade launching device attached to the muzzle is not a destructive device because:
A) Semi auto sam says so.
B) Sally the desk clerk at the DOJ says so.
C) The FAL is not an SKS.


Did you even bother to look at the law Ive posted ? I even made the parts you need to look at RED so as you wouldn't strain your eyes.

That site was a RPG read the section the doj sites 12301(a)(4). It is not a grenade launcher muzzle device apples and oranges not the same.

C.G.
08-07-2006, 5:36 PM
An SKS with a grenade launcher muzzle device attached is a destructive device even without the actual grenade or launching blank in your possession. However the FAL rifle with a similar grenade launching device attached to the muzzle is not a destructive device because:
A) Semi auto sam says so.
B) Sally the desk clerk at the DOJ says so.
C) The FAL is not an SKS.
:rolleyes:

Hilarious.:D

Originally posted by SemiAutoSam
Did you even bother to look at the law Ive posted ? I even made the parts you need to look at RED so as you wouldn't strain your eyes.

That site was a RPG read the section the doj sites 12301(a)(4). It is not a grenade launcher muzzle device apples and oranges not the same.

Yes, I did read it and our interpretations differ. We will have to agree to disagree.

SemiAutoSam
08-07-2006, 6:22 PM
Semiautosam,
My previous post was in bad taste, sorry. The text you highlighted is indeed where the DOJ is interpretating the attached grenade muzzle devices to be DDs. Is is BS, yes. However a felony charge is nothing to mess with any they have stated their position. This has been discussed before on the board and the general opinion was you are better off safe than sorry. An archive search might yield more information.

I do understand as I have the exact flash hider muzzle device on my Belgian FN FAL 50.63 Paratrooper rifle.

The way that the doj is wrong is in the webpage that has the pic of the

Zastava SKS Carbines 59/66 are considered destructive devices in California and therefore may not be purchased, possessed, imported, or kept for sale without a permit.

These weapons were incorporated into the Yugoslavian Army in 1966 and are constructed with grenade launchers on them. The factory brochure claims that the grenade launcher launches a 22 mm (approximately .80 caliber) grenade.

and then the PC section they list in the above discription California Penal Code section 12301(a)(4)

Don't add up as the section cited is listed thus below in red.



Based on the information in the factory brochure, this grenade launcher is a destructive device, and enumerated as such in California Penal Code section 12301(a)(4). Possession of such a device can be a felony. Please contact us if you anticipate purchasing this weapon.




(4) Any rocket, rocket-propelled projectile, or similar device of a diameter greater than 0.60 inch, or any launching device therefor, and any rocket, rocket-propelled projectile, or similar device containing any explosive or incendiary material or any other chemical substance, other than the propellant for that device, except those devices as are designed primarily for emergency or distress signaling purposes.

Within the PC section cited they use the term rocket-propelled projectile the correct term would be RPG (Rocket propelled grenade)

The confusion starts when they use different terms on this page http://ag.ca.gov/firearms/zastava.htm and within the PC they cite 12301(a)(4). listed in red above.

M. Sage
08-07-2006, 7:38 PM
Straying from the topic.... They need to figure out that CO2 bombs don't go off due to chemical reactions, they're purely a change of physical state:

(6) Any sealed device containing dry ice (CO2) or other chemically reactive substances assembled for the purpose of causing an explosion by a chemical reaction.

Since when is CO2 "chemically reactive?"

Sorry, had to do it.

dwtt
08-07-2006, 8:36 PM
My understanding is that it's also considered a 'destructive device' by CA DOJ due to it's also being a grenade launcher.
Crap! I didn't know those Brazilians shot rifle grenades. If I can turn down the OD by 1mm to make it legal, I'll do that. 10 minutes on the lathe at work on a weekend and I'm done. :)
I might end up switching to a US made muzzle brake only because it's cheaper than buying a US gas piston or other part. Thanks everyone for your useful input.

C.G.
08-07-2006, 8:41 PM
I might end up switching to a US made muzzle brake only because it's cheaper than buying a US gas piston or other part. Thanks everyone for your useful input.

They run about $25 from DSA or Entreprise.

SemiAutoSam
08-07-2006, 9:16 PM
If you really want to keep the original muzzle device you could alter it so it is no longer functional. I saw two versions of the M59/66 that were sold in California with the original grenade launcher intact but disabled. The first one had a small lump welded on the bottom to prevent the grenade from sliding on and the second had a flat washer larger than the launcher diameter welded on the front. Ugly but original.

That would be a great idea to do to a US made part but its not something that I would do to a original belgian part.

thanks for the idea.

Pryde
08-08-2006, 1:16 AM
That would be a great idea to do to a US made part but its not something that I would do to a original belgian part.

thanks for the idea.

You know, I heard something similar to what SemiAutoSam say and I am inclined to agree with him. Technically the AR15 birdcage flashhider can launch an obsolete rifle grenade but it is not considered a grenade launcher. Supposedly the law relates only to destructive devices that are grenade launchers and nothing else. For example the Yugo SKS grenade launcher is there for no purpose other than to launch grenades. The FAL flashhider is there as a flash hider that happens to be able to launch a grenade. If FAL flash hider is a grenade launcher, then by the same logic the AR birdcage is one too.

I'm not saying this is the law, this is just my take on it.

thedrickel
08-08-2006, 10:41 AM
Well, I for one would like to have a definitive answer as to whether or not the IMBEL combo device is considered a grenade launcher/ DD by the DOJ, I might mail one in with a letter asking for their opinion. What do you guys think? Also I'd be willing to donate one if somebody else wants to write the letter :cool:

Racefiend
08-08-2006, 4:19 PM
I do understand as I have the exact flash hider muzzle device on my Belgian FN FAL 50.63 Paratrooper rifle.

The way that the doj is wrong is in the webpage that has the pic of the

Zastava SKS Carbines 59/66 are considered destructive devices in California and therefore may not be purchased, possessed, imported, or kept for sale without a permit.

These weapons were incorporated into the Yugoslavian Army in 1966 and are constructed with grenade launchers on them. The factory brochure claims that the grenade launcher launches a 22 mm (approximately .80 caliber) grenade.

and then the PC section they list in the above discription California Penal Code section 12301(a)(4)

Don't add up as the section cited is listed thus below in red.



Based on the information in the factory brochure, this grenade launcher is a destructive device, and enumerated as such in California Penal Code section 12301(a)(4). Possession of such a device can be a felony. Please contact us if you anticipate purchasing this weapon.




(4) Any rocket, rocket-propelled projectile, or similar device of a diameter greater than 0.60 inch, or any launching device therefor, and any rocket, rocket-propelled projectile, or similar device containing any explosive or incendiary material or any other chemical substance, other than the propellant for that device, except those devices as are designed primarily for emergency or distress signaling purposes.

Within the PC section cited they use the term rocket-propelled projectile the correct term would be RPG (Rocket propelled grenade)

The confusion starts when they use different terms on this page http://ag.ca.gov/firearms/zastava.htm and within the PC they cite 12301(a)(4). listed in red above.


Why doesn't it add up? In the page about the zastava, they are talking specifically about a grenade, so they call it that. The law uses "projectile" broadly so they can encompass everything, from an rpg to coke can, filled with explosives, fired from the end of your 10/22.

It's like if they made a law banning computers, and then they have a page showing a dell inspiron. Just because they used the word computer in the law, and called the inspiron an inspiron on the page, doesn't mean it's contradicting.

Whats funny is, that according to that law, a model rocket bigger than .6" would be a destructive device LOL.