PDA

View Full Version : AB962 Legal to ship online ammo to family member out state then have them bring it?


cyrus
01-06-2011, 11:45 AM
AB962

Is it legal to ship online ammo to family member out state then have them bring it?[/B]

IGOTDIRT4U
01-06-2011, 11:52 AM
The law doesn't prohibit the otherwise legal transportation of ammunition across the state line. It doesn't matter if it is you, your family member, or your wife, as long as it's legal for them to have it, it's ok.

That's why the law is partially such a joke.

GOEX FFF
01-06-2011, 12:23 PM
The law doesn't prohibit the otherwise legal transportation of ammunition across the state line. It doesn't matter if it is you, your family member, or your wife, as long as it's legal for them to have it, it's ok.

That's why the law is partially such a TOTAL joke.


Fixed a part on that -

GrayWolf09
01-06-2011, 12:26 PM
AB962

Is it legal to ship online ammo to family member out state then have them bring it?[/B]

Yup.:)

paul0660
01-06-2011, 12:34 PM
It's not illegal.

FrankoUSA
01-06-2011, 2:10 PM
:auto:I could imagine your family member getting pulled over by the police with 1000's of rounds of ammo

dfletcher
01-06-2011, 2:39 PM
For the sake of discussion let's say a person has a C & R/COE and is exempt from 962 - they see a great deal or routinely shop at an on line vendor who does not allow for the exemption.

There are mail box & forwarding operations in NV. Wouldn't it be perfectly legal to have Midway send the ammo to NV, the remailer sends it to CA. The CA resident receiving the ammo is exempt, so I don't see a law being broken. True it's more expensive to mail twice, but depending on price and quantity, how many folks "share" the cost of the mail forwarding service it could be worthwhile.

A Reno NV mailbox is about $150.00 a year, forwarding is $2.00 or $3.00 a package plus postage. Get 3 guys that's $50.00 a year and I'll bet the product (shipped twice) doesn't cost as much as in state with tax.

jidokenju
01-06-2011, 3:58 PM
For the sake of discussion let's say a person has a C & R/COE and is exempt from 962 - they see a great deal or routinely shop at an on line vendor who does not allow for the exemption.

There are mail box & forwarding operations in NV. Wouldn't it be perfectly legal to have Midway send the ammo to NV, the remailer sends it to CA. The CA resident receiving the ammo is exempt, so I don't see a law being broken. True it's more expensive to mail twice, but depending on price and quantity, how many folks "share" the cost of the mail forwarding service it could be worthwhile.

A Reno NV mailbox is about $150.00 a year, forwarding is $2.00 or $3.00 a package plus postage. Get 3 guys that's $50.00 a year and I'll bet the product (shipped twice) doesn't cost as much as in state with tax.
Do you even nead the C&R on this? What jurisdiction does the state have over ammo shipped to NV? And I'm pretty sure that the law only covers shipments into to Cali when it's a purchase.
And if we got 50 people in on your scheme, it's 3 dollars a year.....:D Wanna rent a PO box in Nevada?

curtisfong
01-06-2011, 4:12 PM
Might that not also apply to.... >10 round mags?

NorCalDustin
01-06-2011, 4:20 PM
Also consider this kinek... Just costs a very small fee :)


Order online, ship to the Kinek Address, go pickup later. :)

paul0660
01-06-2011, 4:31 PM
Might that not also apply to.... >10 round mags?

No. Any person vs. any vendor. It would be worth reading the laws.

Librarian
01-06-2011, 4:31 PM
Do you even nead the C&R on this? What jurisdiction does the state have over ammo shipped to NV?

None

And I'm pretty sure that the law only covers shipments into to Cali when it's a purchase.

Nope - "transfers" of all kinds. 12318. (a) Commencing February 1, 2011, the delivery or transfer
of ownership of handgun ammunition may only occur in a face-to-face
transaction with the deliverer or transferor being provided bona fide
evidence of identity from the purchaser or other transferee. A
violation of this section is a misdemeanor.

jidokenju
01-06-2011, 4:36 PM
Damn. There goes that idea.

dfletcher
01-06-2011, 5:03 PM
Do you even nead the C&R on this? What jurisdiction does the state have over ammo shipped to NV? And I'm pretty sure that the law only covers shipments into to Cali when it's a purchase.
And if we got 50 people in on your scheme, it's 3 dollars a year.....:D Wanna rent a PO box in Nevada?

The C & R/COE isn't important getting the ammo to NV from the seller, true. I suppose I'm playing it safe with respect to C & R/COE & the ammo then going from NV to CA - true, it's not being sold though. Might be worth exploring that point. I figured by way of keeping the "remailer folks" out of hot water I'd use the C & R/COE exemption. Maybe if the ammo is being sent "from you in NV to you" in CA and not a transaction per se, it's not required?

dustoff31
01-06-2011, 6:17 PM
The law doesn't prohibit the otherwise legal transportation of ammunition across the state line. It doesn't matter if it is you,

Agreed.

your family member, or your wife, as long as it's legal for them to have it, it's ok.

Things could possibly get sticky here. As you are not personally transporting your own ammo, could/would this be considered a transfer? Librarian's post above seems to indicate that it would be. So at minimum they have to check your ID. Would they have to keep some paperwork concerning that? Silly, I know. But we are talking CA here.


That's why the law is partially such a joke.

In fact it's a total joke. And a bad one at that.

Librarian
01-06-2011, 6:44 PM
Things could possibly get sticky here. As you are not personally transporting your own ammo, could/would this be considered a transfer? Librarian's post above seems to indicate that it would be. So at minimum they have to check your ID. Would they have to keep some paperwork concerning that? Silly, I know. But we are talking CA here.

If it's "you" to "you", I don't think it would be a "transfer of ownership ".

SanPedroShooter
01-06-2011, 6:54 PM
So i order "handgun" ammo, whatever that means, to my WA state address. I have a relative ship MY ammo to me here in LA. No transfer right? I am sending myself my own property.

mikaarce
01-06-2011, 7:01 PM
nice discussion, tagging.

taperxz
01-06-2011, 7:07 PM
So i order "handgun" ammo, whatever that means, to my WA state address. I have a relative ship MY ammo to me here in LA. No transfer right? I am sending myself my own property.

If you order over the internet, some shippers ammo or not do not like to send the purchased item to an address other than the address on the credit/debit card for security reasons.

SanPedroShooter
01-06-2011, 7:09 PM
J&G will do it. I am getting my COE, so this wont be an issue anyway. If you are exempt from the law, it shouldnt matter where the ammo comes from correct?

Cokebottle
01-06-2011, 7:12 PM
Might that not also apply to.... >10 round mags?
It's not illegal for Midway to ship >10rd mags to us.
It is illegal for us to import them.

Big difference.

Librarian
01-06-2011, 7:15 PM
So i order "handgun" ammo, whatever that means, to my WA state address. I have a relative ship MY ammo to me here in LA. No transfer right? I am sending myself my own property.

Don't know if that will work - because 12318(a) also says 'delivery' - with no definition to clarify. It might.

el_hombre70
01-06-2011, 7:21 PM
If you order over the internet, some shippers ammo or not do not like to send the purchased item to an address other than the address on the credit/debit card for security reasons.

Which is why I'm keeping an account based in WA :D

FABIO GETS GOOSED!!!
01-06-2011, 8:21 PM
Just curious, where in AB 962 does it say that it would not be a misdemeanor for a person in California to purchase handgun ammunition other than in a face to face transaction with provision of bona fide i.d. to the seller?

bigpappa0095
01-06-2011, 8:30 PM
as long as the courier picks it up from the shop and shows his/her ID (face to face) and and the delivery driver confirms that a person is home and checks for ID (face-to-face), doesn't that satisfy the two conditions?

12318. (a) Commencing February 1, 2011, the delivery or transfer
of ownership of handgun ammunition may only occur in a face-to-face
transaction with the deliverer or transferor being provided bona fide
evidence of identity from the purchaser or other transferee. A
violation of this section is a misdemeanor.

FABIO GETS GOOSED!!!
01-06-2011, 8:35 PM
as long as the courier picks it up from the shop and shows his/her ID (face to face) and and the delivery driver confirms that a person is home and checks for ID (face-to-face), doesn't that satisfy the two conditions?

12318. (a) Commencing February 1, 2011, the delivery or transfer
of ownership of handgun ammunition may only occur in a face-to-face
transaction with the deliverer or transferor being provided bona fide
evidence of identity from the purchaser or other transferee. A
violation of this section is a misdemeanor.

It's the purchaser who has to be face to face with the seller.

NAZARENO
01-06-2011, 8:56 PM
J&G will do it. I am getting my COE, so this wont be an issue anyway. If you are exempt from the law, it shouldnt matter where the ammo comes from correct?
How hard is it to get your FFL 03 and COE?

mrdd
01-06-2011, 8:57 PM
Just curious, where in AB 962 does it say that it would not be a misdemeanor for a person in California to purchase handgun ammunition other than in a face to face transaction with provision of bona fide i.d. to the seller?

Where does it say that it would be a crime? The face-to-face provision only applies within state jurisdiction. How could the state criminalize an act that occurs outside the state?

FABIO GETS GOOSED!!!
01-06-2011, 9:12 PM
Where does it say that it would be a crime? The face-to-face provision only applies within state jurisdiction. How could the state criminalize an act that occurs outside the state?

The face-to-face provision is how the statute criminalizes internet sales and mail orders, that's what the fuss is all about. Where else are the out of state ammo shippers, CRPA, DOJ and everybody else getting the idea that mail orders and internet sales are prohibited?

Cokebottle
01-06-2011, 9:14 PM
How hard is it to get your FFL 03 and COE?
Clean background check, about 6-8 weeks, and around $130.
After that, it's $30 every 3 years for 03 renewal and $22/year for the COE renewal.

COE is the biggest PITA because you need to get a LiveScan.
The 03FFL can now be done from where you are sitting right now if you have a good debit/credit card, then walk two envelopes to the mail box (one to the BATFE, one to your CLEO).

dfletcher
01-06-2011, 9:18 PM
J&G will do it. I am getting my COE, so this wont be an issue anyway. If you are exempt from the law, it shouldnt matter where the ammo comes from correct?

That would be my interpretation -shipping to another state is done only to bypass the policy angst of particular company, not to violate state law.

In fact, I don't believe there's any requirement for the sender to maintain or have proof the CA resident has an exemption. I think an out of state vendor could probably have a box on their website that says ""CA Residents only - exempt check here { }" much like on line cigar sellers have an "I'm over 18" box or some on line magazine sellers have the "check here for rebuild kit version" for CA residents.

Lone_Gunman
01-06-2011, 9:33 PM
Most online retailers won't ship to an address that is different than your billing address...

mrdd
01-06-2011, 9:35 PM
The face-to-face provision is how the statute criminalizes internet purchases and mail orders, that's what the fuss is all about. Where else are the out of state ammo shippers, CRPA, DOJ and everybody else getting the idea that mail order and internet sales are prohibited?

Well everyone is scared about it, for sure. But seriously, when an interstate purchase happens, there are typically 3 parties involved:

1. Merchant
2. Purchaser
3. Delivery agent

What happens is that (1) receives an assurance that they will be paid by a 3rd party. Then, (1) transfers ownership over to (2), and tenders the goods to (3). (3) brings the goods into the state, and delivers them to (2).

The transfer of ownership occurred outside the state. How is that made illegal by AB 962?

To address your original point, I can see no way that the face-to-face provision requires the seller and the purchaser to be face-to-face for interstate purchases.

SanPedroShooter
01-06-2011, 9:45 PM
How hard is it to switch your billing address to a differnt location? I could just change my credit card billing address to my address in WA, or any out of state address for that matter. I dont need the paper stuff, i do all my transactions online. I was gonna do this anyway when i get my second C&R. I dont want ANY association with CA.
So i'll have a card with a WA state address, and a C&R license with the same. All the douchbags that wont sell to CA will have no idea they are selling to WA resident who also mantains residence in CA.
bwahahaha!
I am complying with all state/federal laws, I'm just getting over on the predjudiced sellers. It illustrates the silliness of the "liabilty" argument. What stops anybody from using anything illegaly? Or taking stuff where it doesnt belong? Is budwieser responsable for dui's? How about toyota?

FABIO GETS GOOSED!!!
01-06-2011, 9:49 PM
If you're talking Uniform Commercial Code analysis to see who's liable for lost/damaged goods or what not, there is a split second in time where the transfer happens, i.e., when the seller hands the goods over to the delivery agent for shipment. That would occur out of state in your example. But this hyper narrow kind of UCC analysis ignores the totality of the sale transaction which is initiated from inside California by a person who is purchasing handgun ammo other than in a face to face transaction. Seriously, where are the out of state ammo vendors, DOJ, CRPA, NRA, etc., getting the idea that internet sales and mail orders are banned if not from the face to face transaction requirement? (By the way there are tobacco cases which interpret similar provisions in other states to prohibit mail order and internet sales.)

FABIO GETS GOOSED!!!
01-06-2011, 9:53 PM
I am complying with all state/federal laws, I'm just getting over on the predjudiced sellers.

Are you really if you are ordering the ammo while you are in California?

taperxz
01-06-2011, 9:56 PM
Face to face via Skype, credit card processed out of state, UPS puts your ammo in your hand.

SanPedroShooter
01-06-2011, 10:00 PM
I was talking more about buying c&r guns, but point taken. For ammo i will just go with the exemption. But if sellers wont honor c&r coe, i can ship to WA then back to CA. a little expensive to ship twice, but cheaper than gas, i think?

taperxz
01-06-2011, 10:06 PM
Are you really if you are ordering the ammo while you are in California?

You are wrong to imply the sale has taken place in California! I happen to have quite a bit of knowledge about the credit/debit card industry.

Any time you purchase something over the internet or phone lines it is considered a point of sale transaction. The actual transaction takes place where the credit card is processed. Therefore, if you purchase ammo from a vendor in texas, the POS took place in Texas, not CA.

This has been established in banking, card companies and retail transactions. This is also why when you buy something out of state, you are subject to that states merchandise return or refund policies!

taperxz
01-06-2011, 10:12 PM
With that being said....

Since i am paying for shipping for something i already purchased, am i not having them(out of state and not subject to ca law) send MY ammo to me? This would be a an out of state purchase with me sending me my own ammo. I paid UPS to ship it!

tuolumnejim
01-06-2011, 11:14 PM
With that being said....

Since i am paying for shipping for something i already purchased, am i not having them(out of state and not subject to ca law) send MY ammo to me? This would be a an out of state purchase with me sending me my own ammo. I paid UPS to ship it!

An early test case in the making. :43:

mrdd
01-07-2011, 1:20 AM
You are wrong to imply the sale has taken place in California! I happen to have quite a bit of knowledge about the credit/debit card industry.

Any time you purchase something over the internet or phone lines it is considered a point of sale transaction. The actual transaction takes place where the credit card is processed. Therefore, if you purchase ammo from a vendor in texas, the POS took place in Texas, not CA.

This has been established in banking, card companies and retail transactions. This is also why when you buy something out of state, you are subject to that states merchandise return or refund policies!

Yes, this is my understanding.

FABIO, the transfer of ownership is independent of the tender of the goods to the delivery agent (e.g. UPS). Note that the delivery agent never has ownership of the goods, but they do take responsibility to deliver it to the purchaser.

This all assumes an interstate transaction, buying from a merchant within the state is likely to be different legally with AB 962.

NAZARENO
01-07-2011, 2:19 AM
Clean background check, about 6-8 weeks, and around $130.
After that, it's $30 every 3 years for 03 renewal and $22/year for the COE renewal.

COE is the biggest PITA because you need to get a LiveScan.
The 03FFL can now be done from where you are sitting right now if you have a good debit/credit card, then walk two envelopes to the mail box (one to the BATFE, one to your CLEO).
CLEO?

FABIO GETS GOOSED!!!
01-07-2011, 5:23 AM
FABIO, the transfer of ownership is independent of the tender of the goods to the delivery agent (e.g. UPS). Note that the delivery agent never has ownership of the goods, but they do take responsibility to deliver it to the purchaser.

UCC determines where and when title passes to the buyer, in the typical internet sale or mail order it's where and when the seller hands the goods over to the delivery agent (i.e., out of state). But again it's a hyper narrow analysis that is used to answer specific questions (who bears the risk of loss, who owes sales tax, etc.) It does not locate the transaction or conduct by the California party to the transaction out of state for every purpose. This leads back to my question, why is everybody reading AB962 as banning internet sales and mail order of handgun ammo if you say it doesn't do that? Besides the case law affirming that similar provisions in other state laws do just that, there is California case law allowing criminal prosecution of out of state residents who have never set foot in California based on a transaction/interaction with a California resident. Not saying this could or would happen here but it illustrates that out of staters need to be mindful of California laws and there are other enforcement procedures in any event.

cyrus
01-07-2011, 10:58 AM
I have a COE and C&R. Can a family member bring ammo to me legally?

Librarian
01-07-2011, 12:13 PM
I have a COE and C&R. Can a family member bring ammo to me legally?

12318. (a) Commencing February 1, 2011, the delivery or transfer
of ownership of handgun ammunition may only occur in a face-to-face
transaction with the deliverer or transferor being provided bona fide
evidence of identity from the purchaser or other transferee. A
violation of this section is a misdemeanor.


Face to face delivery, and be sure to show Uncle Fred your ID, applies to everybody.

For you,
(c) Subdivision (a) shall not apply to or affect the deliveries,
transfers, or sales of, handgun ammunition to any of the following:
... (6) Persons licensed as collectors of firearms pursuant to Chapter
44 (commencing with Section 921) of Title 18 of the United States
Code and the regulations issued pursuant thereto whose licensed
premises are within this state who has a current certificate of
eligibility issued to him or her by the Department of Justice
pursuant to Section 12071.

Uncle Fred can drop it on your doorstep and go on to visit Aunt Henrietta in the next town over, without even seeing you.

@NAZARENO: "CLEO" is "Chief Law Enforcement Officer", typically Chief of Police or Sheriff.

GrizzlyGuy
01-07-2011, 12:18 PM
I have a COE and C&R. Can a family member bring ammo to me legally?

Yes, 12318 (http://law.onecle.com/california/penal/12318.html) exempts deliveries or transfers to you if you have COE + C&R FFL:

(c) Subdivision (a) shall not apply to or affect the deliveries,
transfers, or sales of, handgun ammunition to any of the following:

{...}

(6) Persons licensed as collectors of firearms pursuant to Chapter
44 (commencing with Section 921) of Title 18 of the United States
Code and the regulations issued pursuant thereto whose licensed
premises are within this state who has a current certificate of
eligibility issued to him or her by the Department of Justice
pursuant to Section 12071.

Fish
01-07-2011, 3:45 PM
As you are not personally transporting your own ammo, could/would this be considered a transfer? Librarian's post above seems to indicate that it would be. So at minimum they have to check your ID. Would they have to keep some paperwork concerning that?


The recordkeeping provisions only apply to "vendors", defined (paraphrasing) as people in the business of selling ammunition. So, unless your relative happens to run an ammo store, the only thing they have to do is check your driver's license. Yes, having your relative check your driver's license is kind of silly, but here we are...

dfletcher
01-07-2011, 5:02 PM
Are you really if you are ordering the ammo while you are in California?

With respect to having the C & R/COE and having it shipped to another state first I would say absolutely. CA recognizes the exemption, if the vendor is antsy and I work around that I am complying with the law.

IGOTDIRT4U
01-07-2011, 5:08 PM
Agreed.



Things could possibly get sticky here. As you are not personally transporting your own ammo, could/would this be considered a transfer? Librarian's post above seems to indicate that it would be. So at minimum they have to check your ID. Would they have to keep some paperwork concerning that? Silly, I know. But we are talking CA here.




In fact it's a total joke. And a bad one at that.

And after reading through the other posts analyzing the contents of the law, I stand corrected. Having an out of person receive the ammo, and then forward it to you in CA, is/may be illegal. If the transfer took place out of state, I don't think that is illegal as CA law has no bearing out of state, at least in this regard.

Wherryj
01-07-2011, 6:08 PM
Might that not also apply to.... >10 round mags?

Using a remailing service to ship standard capacity mags would constitute "importation", would it not?

The ammo law doesn't prohibit importation, just tries to make things difficult by imposing a bunch of regulations on the sale that makes online purchase very difficult.

furyous68
01-07-2011, 7:08 PM
It's the purchaser who has to be face to face with the seller.

Am I missing something or does it not say the face to face can occur between the purchaser & the DELIVERER.... not just the seller? I thought this point was brought up by some of the CalGuns lawyers. All this would require is verification of ID through UPS or FedEX... which is a service they already provide (for wine & other shipments) for an additional charge.

Sounds like as long as somebody involved in the transfer checks ID, there is no misdemeanor.

Cokebottle
01-07-2011, 8:23 PM
CLEO?
Chief Law Enforcement Officer.

Depending on where you life, this would be either the County Sheriff or your city's Chief of Police.