PDA

View Full Version : "No Carry in Hospitals"


Window_Seat
01-04-2011, 10:34 PM
Yes, again, this is California, but again as well... What happens in other states doesn't necessarily stay there.

So I'm looking around at different states as far as where one CANNOT carry (even with a CCW), and one state (South Carolina) says (where it's prohibited)

South Carolina Code of Laws
(Unannotated)
23-31-215. Issuance of permits.
(M) A permit issued pursuant to this section does not authorize a permit holder to carry a concealable weapon into a:

(10)hospital, medical clinic, doctor's office, or any other facility where medical services or procedures are performed unless expressly authorized by the employer."

So suppose (as a scenario) I'm going for a walk and I have to go in right now for a bad Asthma attack (it really sneaks up on me, as did tonight). I don't have many choices, other than calling AMR (it's happened before, not often though), a Taxi or someone to pick me up (which would take longer under this scenario).

I could put my address on it (the HG) and throw it in the blue mailbox, but wouldn't that be a bit impractical?

I could give it to a cop? Sure that would be a GREEAAAAT IDEA.... :rolleyes:

I could take a cab and give it to the driver?

Call Domino's Pizza and give him a "really nice tip"?

Or I could have the Cab driver take me home so I could "put it away" (the HG, that is :eek:), but the last time I checked, breathing was kind of important, and one doesn't want to "make extra stops" on the way to the hospital (especially since those pesky lungs quit working the way they should).

I'm thinking also about the person who might become incapacitated because of a medical emergency, and end up in the ER while they are carrying, and then things get bad for the "patient".

If Obamacare survives, I might look at this as depriving me of my right to "health care", if health care becomes such a right as ObamaCare puts it, especially if Peterson and/or Mishaga is ruled in our favor, no? Right to healthcare; Right to travel in Interstate Commerce?

After :gura: is finished with North Carolina, does he take a short trip south?

No, I don't smoke (cigarettes, or the "other stuff" [really, dude]). :D

Erik.

Purple K
01-04-2011, 11:18 PM
Since it says "employer", I think that you may be quoting something out of their Labor Code. Not applicable to non-employees.

NiteQwill
01-04-2011, 11:42 PM
As one who works in the hospital, I can assure you that bringing a gun into the ER (CCW/LEO) will invite the local PD over. It's happened before, it's not a big deal.

First, if you truly have shortness of breath, you should be calling 911 and not driving yourself or taking a taxi... yes, PD will take your gun (when fire picks you up) and yes, you will get it back.

Your LIFE (HEALTH) would be more important than the need to be carrying at the moment... unless your priorities are mixed up.

hoffmang
01-05-2011, 12:43 AM
South Carolina will likely end up on the list of litigation for a host of reasons...

Not sure if this issue is one of them, but they tend to be oddly out of step. It's the whole roots of gun control thing.

-Gene

rromeo
01-05-2011, 5:17 AM
Military hospitals usually ban guns too. We were at Fort Sill many years ago, one of our guys closed the breech of an M198 on his hand. Bn Commander went to the hospital to see him, M9 on his hip.
Nurse: "you can't bring a gun in here."
Col K :"isn't this an Army base? I'm not going to shoot somebody "
Nurse : " then you can leave it outside"

OleCuss
01-05-2011, 6:29 AM
Oh, I think there will eventually be litigation in this area. Here in California you've even got things written into the model Medical Staff Bylaws that you can't have weapons on you. That means that Wherryj may have problems even if he has a CCW license and goes to make rounds at his local hospital. What's more, if he can't even bring his firearm onto the hospital parking lot (a reasonable interpretation of those model staff bylaws) then he is effectively being prohibited from carry when he must go from his office to the hospital.

What's more, under emergency situations I believe (not entirely sure) he can be effectively ordered to go to the hospital and render assistance and that means that his RKBA can be involuntarily taken from him.

To make it even more fun in court? Anyone ever seen the trochar for a chest tube? Those suckers are wicked and are explicitly designed to penetrate chest walls. So technically under the model staff bylaws any physician who puts in a chest tube is violating the bylaws since they are using something that could easily be considered a weapon (hey, a flashlight can be considered a weapon by the courts although that is not its intended use). . . Scalpels might be a similar issue.

Also, remember that even if I'm OK with my firearm being briefly taken from me when in the ER - if the law says I can't bring it with me to the hospital, then a life-threatening emergency means I can be prosecuted simply for getting ill or injured while lawfully carrying my firearm. After all, I cannot legally simply give my firearm to some random person or leave it unsecured at the scene of an injury, can I?

I really believe there are lots of ways this could be attacked. I doubt it will be of the highest priority, however.

Wherryj
01-05-2011, 8:48 AM
Since it says "employer", I think that you may be quoting something out of their Labor Code. Not applicable to non-employees.

Move to the Tri-Valley. I am the "employer" of a medical office and I'll authorize CCW holders to carry in my office-all 15 (?) of them in the county.

Wherryj
01-05-2011, 8:49 AM
Oh, I think there will eventually be litigation in this area. Here in California you've even got things written into the model Medical Staff Bylaws that you can't have weapons on you. That means that Wherryj may have problems even if he has a CCW license and goes to make rounds at his local hospital. What's more, if he can't even bring his firearm onto the hospital parking lot (a reasonable interpretation of those model staff bylaws) then he is effectively being prohibited from carry when he must go from his office to the hospital.

What's more, under emergency situations I believe (not entirely sure) he can be effectively ordered to go to the hospital and render assistance and that means that his RKBA can be involuntarily taken from him.

To make it even more fun in court? Anyone ever seen the trochar for a chest tube? Those suckers are wicked and are explicitly designed to penetrate chest walls. So technically under the model staff bylaws any physician who puts in a chest tube is violating the bylaws since they are using something that could easily be considered a weapon (hey, a flashlight can be considered a weapon by the courts although that is not its intended use). . . Scalpels might be a similar issue.

Also, remember that even if I'm OK with my firearm being briefly taken from me when in the ER - if the law says I can't bring it with me to the hospital, then a life-threatening emergency means I can be prosecuted simply for getting ill or injured while lawfully carrying my firearm. After all, I cannot legally simply give my firearm to some random person or leave it unsecured at the scene of an injury, can I?

I really believe there are lots of ways this could be attacked. I doubt it will be of the highest priority, however.

Yeah, but I'm in Alameda county, so any discussion about whether my CCW would or wouldn't be valid is sort of moot at this point.

:rolleyes:

Wherryj
01-05-2011, 8:51 AM
As one who works in the hospital, I can assure you that bringing a gun into the ER (CCW/LEO) will invite the local PD over. It's happened before, it's not a big deal.

First, if you truly have shortness of breath, you should be calling 911 and not driving yourself or taking a taxi... yes, PD will take your gun (when fire picks you up) and yes, you will get it back.

Your LIFE (HEALTH) would be more important than the need to be carrying at the moment... unless your priorities are mixed up.

Perhaps San Bernardino is different, but I KNOW that many of the ER attendings were "packing", with valid CCWs. It was pretty easy to obtain one in San Berdoo afterall.

Perhaps it was just overlooked by the LEOs? This was the hospital used by the SD and the local PD for the "jail checks" on those heading to the jail, so it wasn't a rare thing to have LEOs in the ER. It was also pretty obvious what the "fanny packs" worn by these doctors were holding.

NiteQwill
01-05-2011, 8:57 AM
Perhaps San Bernardino is different, but I KNOW that many of the ER attendings were "packing", with valid CCWs. It was pretty easy to obtain one in San Berdoo afterall.

Perhaps it was just overlooked by the LEOs? This was the hospital used by the SD and the local PD for the "jail checks" on those heading to the jail, so it wasn't a rare thing to have LEOs in the ER. It was also pretty obvious what the "fanny packs" worn by these doctors were holding.

My hospital is also used by the SD and local PD numerous times. I seriously doubt any doc will be carrying while on staff, if they are, they would leave it in their locker. I seriously doubt that administration (and their lawyers) would allow to staff to bring weapons on campus, hospitals already have too much liability and are not willing to have anymore than what they already pay for. Fanny packs by nurses and docs usually hold medical supplies.

I'm an ER nurse and I wear a fanny pack. :)

jb7706
01-05-2011, 9:01 AM
Military hospitals usually ban guns too. We were at Fort Sill many years ago, one of our guys closed the breech of an M198 on his hand. Bn Commander went to the hospital to see him, M9 on his hip.
Nurse: "you can't bring a gun in here."
Col K :"isn't this an Army base? I'm not going to shoot somebody "
Nurse : " then you can leave it outside"

Arms have been banned from military hospitals for decades if not by law then by tradition. Even field hospitals in combat zones have this policy/tradition in place. Every hospital I ever worked at or visited had this in place always enforced by the commander, usually a full bird, on down.

OleCuss
01-05-2011, 9:03 AM
My hospital is also used by the SD and local PD numerous times. I seriously doubt any doc will be carrying while on staff, if they are, they would leave it in their locker. I seriously doubt that administration (and their lawyers) would allow to staff to bring weapons on campus, hospitals already have too much liability and are not willing to have anymore than what they already pay for. Fanny packs by nurses and docs usually hold medical supplies.

I'm an ER nurse and I wear a fanny pack. :)

Yes, I know a lot of nurses and doctors have medical items in their fanny packs. Not exactly unknown, however for physicians to be packing a bit of heat as well. . .

OleCuss
01-05-2011, 9:07 AM
Arms have been banned from military hospitals for decades if not by law then by tradition. Even field hospitals in combat zones have this policy/tradition in place. Every hospital I ever worked at or visited had this in place always enforced by the commander, usually a full bird, on down.

Interesting.

While I don't doubt that locations such as BAMC or Walter Reed ban sidearms - I'm pretty sure that when I visited the "field" hospital at Bagram that I was carrying my M9 and I caught no grief at all. And I met with one of the muckety-mucks as well so it isn't like no one in authority observed that.

And, of course, our Battalion Aid Station and the TMC had no such restrictions. . .

IEShooter
01-05-2011, 9:17 AM
Perhaps San Bernardino is different, but I KNOW that many of the ER attendings were "packing", with valid CCWs. It was pretty easy to obtain one in San Berdoo afterall.

Perhaps it was just overlooked by the LEOs? This was the hospital used by the SD and the local PD for the "jail checks" on those heading to the jail, so it wasn't a rare thing to have LEOs in the ER. It was also pretty obvious what the "fanny packs" worn by these doctors were holding.

I think people are missing that the OP's post is citing laws in SOUTH CAROLINA and not California.

I have my CCW here and nothing was ever said about hospitals or doctor's offices. To the best of my knowledge, these are not prohibited places unless there is a local statute.

For example, there is nothing in Federal or State law that says you can't CCW in state or local courthouses. However, in San Berdoo county, they have an ordinance that forbids CCW in country courthouses. We all know this, so we don't carry there. Other, though not all counties have similiar ordinances. If you arrive and have a hand gun on you, some will even be nice enough to secure it for you along with the LEO's guns while you conduct your business.

OleCuss
01-05-2011, 9:22 AM
Umm. . .

Things aren't quite that straightforward. I specifically referenced Wherryj in conjunction with current model medical staff bylaws as they are written. This was on-topic since the OP was talking about how things might apply in Kalifornia.

Medical staff bylaws don't even reach the level of an ordinance. Violating them can get you kicked off the medical staff which means you can't take care of patients in the hospital. That could destroy your medical career but it won't get you locked up.

Anyway, one shouldn't be surprised if California tries to emulate South Carolina on this. And I don't think JB would veto the legislation.

Decoligny
01-05-2011, 9:24 AM
Yes, again, this is California, but again as well... What happens in other states doesn't necessarily stay there.

So I'm looking around at different states as far as where one CANNOT carry (even with a CCW), and one state (South Carolina) says (where it's prohibited)



So suppose (as a scenario) I'm going for a walk and I have to go in right now for a bad Asthma attack (it really sneaks up on me, as did tonight). I don't have many choices, other than calling AMR (it's happened before, not often though), a Taxi or someone to pick me up (which would take longer under this scenario).

I could put my address on it (the HG) and throw it in the blue mailbox, but wouldn't that be a bit impractical?

I could give it to a cop? Sure that would be a GREEAAAAT IDEA.... :rolleyes:

I could take a cab and give it to the driver?

Call Domino's Pizza and give him a "really nice tip"?

Or I could have the Cab driver take me home so I could "put it away" (the HG, that is :eek:), but the last time I checked, breathing was kind of important, and one doesn't want to "make extra stops" on the way to the hospital (especially since those pesky lungs quit working the way they should).

I'm thinking also about the person who might become incapacitated because of a medical emergency, and end up in the ER while they are carrying, and then things get bad for the "patient".

If Obamacare survives, I might look at this as depriving me of my right to "health care", if health care becomes such a right as ObamaCare puts it, especially if Peterson and/or Mishaga is ruled in our favor, no? Right to healthcare; Right to travel in Interstate Commerce?

After :gura: is finished with North Carolina, does he take a short trip south?

No, I don't smoke (cigarettes, or the "other stuff" [really, dude]). :D

Erik.


If you read a little further down in the code you will find the following in regards to the prohibition to carry into certain places:

"A person who wilfully violates a provision of this subsection is guilty of a misdemeanor and, upon conviction, must be fined not less than one thousand dollars or imprisoned not more than one year, or both, at the discretion of the court and have his permit revoked for five years."

So, if you are brought into the emergency room due to a medical emergency, you did not wilfully carry into the hospital, you only inadvertantly carried into a hospital since it wasn't your intent to go to the hospital armed.

jb7706
01-05-2011, 9:29 AM
Interesting.

While I don't doubt that locations such as BAMC or Walter Reed ban sidearms - I'm pretty sure that when I visited the "field" hospital at Bagram that I was carrying my M9 and I caught no grief at all. And I met with one of the muckety-mucks as well so it isn't like no one in authority observed that.

And, of course, our Battalion Aid Station and the TMC had no such restrictions. . .

Never been to Bagram, so can't speak to that. Never saw a BAS or field TMC that had a problem, that always made me laugh about the CSH restrictions. The CSH's usually had a large sign at the entrance to the ER that spelled out the no weapons rules. I had a picture of one I took at a field CSH in Central America many moons ago, wish I could find it. It was just one of those things about the Army that I just had to shake my head at. Since you had no issues it's apparently up to the CO to make/enforce the no arms policy.

Reed and BAMC are both Stateside installations, so they are definitely covered under the current Fed GFZ laws. Ft. Sam was a wide open base when I was there, anyone could drive on base at any time. Glad that rule was made to protect our Soldiers and the few Sailors that were there.

IEShooter
01-05-2011, 9:51 AM
Umm. . .

Things aren't quite that straightforward. I specifically referenced Wherryj in conjunction with current model medical staff bylaws as they are written. This was on-topic since the OP was talking about how things might apply in Kalifornia.

Medical staff bylaws don't even reach the level of an ordinance. Violating them can get you kicked off the medical staff which means you can't take care of patients in the hospital. That could destroy your medical career but it won't get you locked up.

Anyway, one shouldn't be surprised if California tries to emulate South Carolina on this. And I don't think JB would veto the legislation.

I hear what you're saying and yes, this would apply to employees or medical staff at that particular location. This is really no different than company policies that forbid having firearms on company property. The company I work for has such a policy and since I value my job, I don't carry while at work.

You and I both know though that very many people just ignore these policies and while they put their jobs at risk, they prefer the "safety" of having their hand gun with them all the time.

Obviously, this is not against the law, just against company policy.

Dreaded Claymore
01-05-2011, 9:58 AM
A high school teacher of mine was once an EMT in Los Angeles. Although it was against the rules to do so, many of his colleagues carried guns on the job because LA is sketchy as hell. I'm not surprised; those guys have to respond to crack gang shootouts all the time. Shame that it's such a mystery to the folks in charge.

Wherryj
01-05-2011, 1:19 PM
My hospital is also used by the SD and local PD numerous times. I seriously doubt any doc will be carrying while on staff, if they are, they would leave it in their locker. I seriously doubt that administration (and their lawyers) would allow to staff to bring weapons on campus, hospitals already have too much liability and are not willing to have anymore than what they already pay for. Fanny packs by nurses and docs usually hold medical supplies.

I'm an ER nurse and I wear a fanny pack. :)

I KNOW what was in the fanny packs of at least three of the ER attendings and of at least a half dozen of the residents. It may have been illegal or discouraged, but it still happened. This was 15 years ago, so I can't speak to what is happening now.

Wherryj
01-05-2011, 1:22 PM
On the Medical Staff Bylaws issue: I'm not aware of this being prevalent. I belong to the medical staff at two hospitals and neither one has any mention of firearms. Also the CMA suggested ideal bylaws don't address it.

Any medical staff can address whatever it feels necessary, so perhaps there are some who feel obliged to address firearms in their bylaws. It is supposed to be a document that explains rights and responsibilites of the medical staff. Most medical personnel have little to do with firearms directly, at least at work.

GaryV
01-05-2011, 1:51 PM
South Carolina is not be alone. Here's the relevant law in Florida:

394.458 Introduction or removal of certain articles unlawful; penalty.--

(1)(a) Except as authorized by law or as specifically authorized by the person in charge of each hospital providing mental health services under this part, it is unlawful to introduce into or upon the grounds of such hospital, or to take or attempt to take or send therefrom, any of the following articles, which are hereby declared to be contraband for the purposes of this section:

1. Any intoxicating beverage or beverage which causes or may cause an intoxicating effect;

2. Any controlled substance as defined in chapter 893; or

3. Any firearms or deadly weapon.

(b) It is unlawful to transmit to, or attempt to transmit to, or cause or attempt to cause to be transmitted to, or received by, any patient of any hospital providing mental health services under this part any article or thing declared by this section to be contraband, at any place which is outside of the grounds of such hospital, except as authorized by law or as specifically authorized by the person in charge of such hospital.

(2) A person who violates any provision of this section commits a felony of the third degree, punishable as provided in s. 775.082, s. 775.083, or s. 775.084.

So, if the hospital has a mental health ward (and most major hospitals do), guns are banned. There is no exception for CWL holders. Although the law governing CWLs doesn't list hospitals in prohibited places, the hospital law doesn't list CWLs as an exception like other laws prohibiting guns do, so there is a question (which hasn't been answered by case law yet) as to whether hospitals are off-limits. They all post signs saying "No Weapons", though signs in and of themselves carry no legal weight in Florida.

J.D.Allen
01-05-2011, 2:11 PM
South Carolina will likely end up on the list of litigation for a host of reasons...

Not sure if this issue is one of them, but they tend to be oddly out of step. It's the whole roots of gun control thing.

-Gene

Yeah, SC doesn't give reciprocity to many states either. It's like the only state in the south that doesn't accept CCWs from all the southern states.