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View Full Version : New Kel-Tec Shotgun and Magazine Restrictions


Aleksandr Mravinsky
01-03-2011, 3:54 PM
I heard about Kel-Tec's new shotgun from this link
http://gunmart.blogspot.com/2011/01/kel-tec-ksg-12ga-bullpup-shotgun.html

It has a 14+1 capacity, but that capacity is spread over two magazines, so neither of the magazines has a capacity more than 7 rounds. What I am wondering is if this would technically be legal to own because of the restriction on importing, manufacturing, etc of "high-capacity" magazines. The gun doesn't have a 10+ round magazine, but it does have a 10+ round capacity.

SwissFluCase
01-03-2011, 4:03 PM
The law does not seem to address multiple magazines. The details of how they function would be important. For example, are the magazines attached to each other as a unit, and can the gun function with only one magazine?

While the cursory glance would indicate a "no", a closer look is probably warranted. The question is: Did the legislature intend to address firearms fed from multiple low capacity magazines? The only example I can find of such an arrangement is the M249, which can feed from a belt or an AR mag (but at the same time?).

Regards,


SwissFluCase

FatalKitty
01-03-2011, 4:04 PM
it's a tube mag - does not follow standard mag restrictions.

Dr Rockso
01-03-2011, 4:09 PM
No magazine capacity limitations for fixed magazines on shotguns, looks like it's good to go.

Write Winger
01-03-2011, 4:14 PM
Buy it while you can. Kel Tec makes awesome stuff that tyrants hate.

223Devil
01-03-2011, 4:27 PM
I want

Lagduf
01-03-2011, 4:37 PM
God I hope this is affordable. That thing is just awesome looking.

elSquid
01-03-2011, 4:52 PM
KelTec has licensed the Neostead design? Holy moley!

Very interested...

-- Michael

tgriffin
01-03-2011, 5:25 PM
Neosted design?

No. The tubes are below the barrel. I don't see how they can possibly tilt up in the same manner for loading. I also doubt based on the photos that it has the forward back charging action. Looks like they took the aesthetic design and ran with it while reengineering the action and functionality of the loading mechanism.

cdtx2001
01-03-2011, 5:33 PM
So is it a pump or semi auto shotgun?

Wherryj
01-03-2011, 5:33 PM
I heard about Kel-Tec's new shotgun from this link
http://gunmart.blogspot.com/2011/01/kel-tec-ksg-12ga-bullpup-shotgun.html

It has a 14+1 capacity, but that capacity is spread over two magazines, so neither of the magazines has a capacity more than 7 rounds. What I am wondering is if this would technically be legal to own because of the restriction on importing, manufacturing, etc of "high-capacity" magazines. The gun doesn't have a 10+ round magazine, but it does have a 10+ round capacity.

That might get through on a technicality, but I suspect that the weight is going to limit its appeal. Does it come with a trailer?

Librarian
01-03-2011, 5:37 PM
Weird.

I don't want to even guess how DOJ would classify that.

One could certainly use just one of the tubes - it's a manual change-over - and neither one is removable.

Fails the shotgun/'assault weapon' definition.

However: 12020 (c)(25) As used in this section, "large-capacity
magazine" means any ammunition feeding device with the capacity
to accept more than 10 rounds, but shall not be construed to
include any of the following:
(A) A feeding device that has been permanently altered so
that itcannot accommodate more than 10 rounds.
(B) A .22 caliber tube ammunition feeding device.
(C) A tubular magazine that is contained in a lever-action
firearm.

"Tubular" means nothing special for shotguns (unless lever-action).

If it were thought to be a single 'ammunition feeding device' id would Be A Problem.

Tarn_Helm
01-03-2011, 5:40 PM
I heard about Kel-Tec's new shotgun from this link
http://gunmart.blogspot.com/2011/01/kel-tec-ksg-12ga-bullpup-shotgun.html

It has a 14+1 capacity, but that capacity is spread over two magazines, so neither of the magazines has a capacity more than 7 rounds. What I am wondering is if this would technically be legal to own because of the restriction on importing, manufacturing, etc of "high-capacity" magazines. The gun doesn't have a 10+ round magazine, but it does have a 10+ round capacity.

"Duel Feed, Pump Action Shotgun, 14+1 Capacity (http://www.lesjones.com/www/images/posts/ksg-362x500.jpg)"

:drool5:
:Ivan:
:coolgleamA:

I'd better dust off my plastic happy card when that little gem becomes available for sale here in the PRK, much to the chagrin of our new Anti-Gun Attorney General.

;)

IrishPirate
01-03-2011, 5:46 PM
following 1-11 on the flow chart (http://www.calguns.net/caawid/sgflowchart.pdf)....this seems to be legal! i can't find anything about tube limits on shotguns either. so unless this thing is rediculously expensive....i'm sure we'll see them in some calgunners hands soon.

elSquid
01-03-2011, 5:50 PM
Neosted design?

No. The tubes are below the barrel. I don't see how they can possibly tilt up in the same manner for loading. I also doubt based on the photos that it has the forward back charging action. Looks like they took the aesthetic design and ran with it while reengineering the action and functionality of the loading mechanism.

Yup, I definitely jumped the gun there. I guess I just got overly excited when I saw the pictures... :D

-- Michael

PyroFox79
01-03-2011, 5:53 PM
WANT!!!!

tgriffin
01-03-2011, 5:59 PM
Yup, I definitely jumped the gun there. I guess I just got overly excited when I saw the pictures... /quote

No worries it's the first thing my mind jumped to too. I ran straight to gunsoftheworld.ru and did a comparison.

I want one. Bad. I'm just a tad concerned it's going to be a weird shortstroking action compared to what we are accustomed to in a pump gun.

yellowfin
01-03-2011, 6:01 PM
Don't ask the question, just get one. Don't ever invite opportunity or direct attention for them to be the Grinch.

NSR500
01-03-2011, 6:05 PM
I interpret the law to not include this Kel Tec. The thing may have two tubes, but it is still "Tube Fed".

PRKArms
01-03-2011, 6:09 PM
We are on it!!

AlexDD
01-03-2011, 6:09 PM
http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=379598

Thread in the shotgun forum from yesterday.

Werewolf1021
01-03-2011, 6:09 PM
:drool5: Do want! :drool5:

JeffM
01-03-2011, 6:09 PM
The question is:

Is this two 7 round "ammunition feeding device(s)" or one 14 round?

Librarian
01-03-2011, 6:11 PM
following 1-11 on the flow chart (http://www.calguns.net/caawid/sgflowchart.pdf)....this seems to be legal! i can't find anything about tube limits on shotguns either. so unless this thing is rediculously expensive....i'm sure we'll see them in some calgunners hands soon.

I interpret the law to not include this Kel Tec. The thing may have two tubes, but it is still "Tube Fed".

As pointed out above, 'tube fed' has nothing interesting for shotguns r/t large-capacity magazines. But 2 7-rounders might be just that, rather than 1 14-rounder.

But it does not meet the requirements to be an 'assault weapon'.

Scott Connors
01-03-2011, 6:24 PM
Well, I know what the next LCAV poster child is going to be. :(

River Jack
01-03-2011, 6:29 PM
Wow. Bottom-ejecting! A bullpup that lefties can shoot! Me likey, me wanty!

AlexDD
01-03-2011, 6:32 PM
Can't wait for our new AG, Kamela Harris, to opine on this one :rolleyes:

truthseeker
01-03-2011, 6:58 PM
I want that since California AWB MADE me have to sell my SPAS12 before I moved here from Florida.

nobody_special
01-03-2011, 7:03 PM
Nice shotgun... though I'd be much more interested if it were a semi-auto.

Anyone want to lay odds that the DoJ will try to classify it as a high-capacity feeding device, despite the fact that it really has two 7-round magazines?

cbn620
01-03-2011, 7:10 PM
We are on it!!

Godspeed to you, you crazy, crazy Fresnans. :D

Write Winger
01-03-2011, 7:31 PM
Stay ahead of the tyrants, just start buying them while they find a way to ban them. I can't believe we're at a point in American history that we have to think this way.

maddoggie13
01-03-2011, 7:35 PM
Group buy...:tt1:

mymonkeyman
01-04-2011, 12:22 AM
Seems hard to characterize two 7-round magazines with a manual switch to switch between feeding from each of them as a single 14-round magazine. How's that different from duct-taping or clipping two 10-round magazines together?

NSR500
01-04-2011, 1:17 AM
Even if someone made a stink about it, it would be easy to disable/plug the second tube.

freonr22
01-04-2011, 1:20 AM
Even if someone made a stink about it, it would be easy to disable/plug the second tube.
or maybe modify for 2 additional tubes

Merc1138
01-04-2011, 1:24 AM
Even if someone made a stink about it, it would be easy to disable/plug the second tube.

Hmm, as I recall the DFG restriction for hunting birds is 3 rounds, but couldn't you just stick 2 rounds in each tube(plugged of course) if they were classified as separate magazines?

NSR500
01-04-2011, 1:28 AM
Hmm, as I recall the DFG restriction for hunting birds is 3 rounds, but couldn't you just stick 2 rounds in each tube(plugged of course) if they were classified as separate magazines?

I'm not up on DFG laws, so who knows...
The DFG warden might want one entire tube blocked and the second tube limited to 3rds.

Merc1138
01-04-2011, 1:31 AM
I'm not up on DFG laws, so who knows...
The DFG warden might want one entire tube blocked and the second tube limited to 3rds.

Wouldn't that be assuming they look at it as one magazine though?

However I suppose if the thing automatically kicked over to the 2nd tube when the follower in the first tube comes all the way forward, that'd probably get it classified as a single 14 round magazine.

yellowfin
01-04-2011, 4:53 AM
Well, I know what the next LCAV poster child is going to be. :(Here's a wacky idea: stop letting them dictate the terms.

Ibgreezy
01-04-2011, 7:10 AM
Looks like I got to start saving now, probably gonna be priced somewhere close to the RFB

Luieburger
01-04-2011, 8:02 AM
Group buy...:tt1:

:iagree:

yellowfin
01-04-2011, 8:27 AM
I wonder what Tom Knapp has planned for it.

tgriffin
01-04-2011, 8:34 AM
I had a dream about this gun last night... do want!!!!!!

Smokeybehr
01-04-2011, 8:54 AM
If you'll excuse me, I'll be in my rack...

xenophobe
01-04-2011, 8:59 AM
Wow.... must. have. now.

m1aowner
01-04-2011, 9:13 AM
Looks nice, BUT, can it hold up to the constant abuse of the 12 gauge round in all its various forms? Anything chrome lined in there? I'm waiting for endurance test results.

himurax13
01-04-2011, 9:22 AM
Doesn't this need to meet the 30" overall length requirement? If so, can't they just add another round to each tube and make the barrel longer to acccept a choke?

PEBKAC
01-04-2011, 9:26 AM
Doesn't this need to meet the 30" overall length requirement? If so, can't they just add another round to each tube and make the barrel longer to acccept a choke?
You're confusing rifle and shotgun AW laws. Only center-fire semi-automatic rifles must exceed 30 inches OAL when stock is folded/collapsed. Shotgun OAL must simply meet the federal 26 inch OAL standard iirc.

Related to the topic I have three questions: When, how much, and where? :D

SupportGeek
01-04-2011, 9:27 AM
Semi Auto yes?
Perfect HD shotty IMO

ivsamhell
01-04-2011, 9:38 AM
no, its a pump. semi-auto are too picky.

thatrogue
01-04-2011, 3:33 PM
this would be the bee's knees if it was semi...

steadyrock
01-04-2011, 4:03 PM
I love the design, and mostly agree with you. Keltec is doing good lately.

If it was a semi-auto bullpup with detachable/quick change mags, it would be ultimate an assault weapon.

Personally, I'm very glad it's a pump.

ivsamhell
01-04-2011, 4:36 PM
Personally, I'm very glad it's a pump.

me too.

BAGunner
01-04-2011, 4:49 PM
MSRP is said around $800...

Must Resist....

B Strong
01-04-2011, 4:49 PM
I'm cetainly interested.

PsychGuy274
01-04-2011, 6:45 PM
MSRP is said around $800...

Must Resist....

Where did you see that?

Me1
01-04-2011, 6:50 PM
http://www.keltecweapons.com/news/preview-kel-tec-shotgun-ksgWhere did you see that?

FatalKitty
01-04-2011, 6:55 PM
MSRP is said around $800...

Must Resist....

where does the line start? I'm getting one


also - M1A - chrome lined? dude it's a cyl bore... familiar with how shotguns work?

maddoggie13
01-04-2011, 6:55 PM
:iagree:

May be we can get enough volume to have a limited calguns edition...:D

cbn620
01-04-2011, 6:56 PM
Looks nice, BUT, can it hold up to the constant abuse of the 12 gauge round in all its various forms? Anything chrome lined in there? I'm waiting for endurance test results.

Can't think of any shotguns that have chrome lined parts off-hand, but I can think of a lot that don't and are tough as hell.

I think the durability of this gun will come down more to design and manufacturing QC than chrome lined parts.

diginit
01-04-2011, 7:12 PM
Is the barrel less than than 18"? If not, :D (18.5) and pump action, We're good to go in Ca.!

To bad it is only 2 3/4". I'll buy one when it's 3" mag. My preferred HD load is 3", 12 Ga. with 92 pellets of BB shot.

IrishPirate
01-04-2011, 7:26 PM
Looks nice, BUT, can it hold up to the constant abuse of the 12 gauge round in all its various forms? Anything chrome lined in there? I'm waiting for endurance test results.

are there any chrome lined shotguns out there? The Mossberg 500 and the Remington 870 aren't chrome lined and they are probably the two most proven shotguns i can think of. after all....it's just plastic or paper touching the barrel of a shotgun usually......

MSRP is said around $800...

Must Resist....

if you're lying.....i'll find you :mad:

diginit
01-04-2011, 7:33 PM
No reason to Chome line a shotgun barrel...Not enough friction with shot and 3200 FPS is not possible with a 12 Ga. slug. The paper, plastic, or brass are not the issue. It's the projectile type, speed and friction. (heat on the interior of the barrel) You might get up to 1300 FPS in a 12 Ga slug. Maybe...If you reload hot. As opposed to an AR at a stock Military Average speed of 3250 FPS. with almost 3 times the heat generated per round fired.

skkppy
01-04-2011, 7:41 PM
+1 kel-tec designed something that looks cool....
want

IrishPirate
01-04-2011, 7:50 PM
If they make this in 20ga, it'll be my wife's HD gun. (.410 and i'll teach my dog to shoot!!)

diginit
01-04-2011, 7:55 PM
+1 kel-tec designed something that looks cool....
want

So... You're saying that the Keltec SU-16 doesn't look cool? :D

http://i270.photobucket.com/albums/jj107/diginit/MySU-16.jpg

Ca legal with my preban 20's and 30's. Ha-Ha. Rapid fire, freehand, with a Tasco red dot and a 20 at 100... All still in the black. Wait until I get some good optics...Someday... Keltec recommends cleaning after every 500 rnds. Simple to break down with only a bullet tip. This one is an SU-16A Chambered in 5.56 NATO. One of the first. Low serial No. 7000 rnds and the bore still looks great. Had an extractor break at about 5000 while shooting hot reloads chronoed at 3300 FPS. Replaced it with an AR extractor. No problems since. Checkout the Keltec forum sometime. They make some good polymer guns.

skkppy
01-04-2011, 8:19 PM
dropping mags doesn't have anything to do with looking cool :p

diginit
01-04-2011, 8:34 PM
You're right. Dropping 30 rnd mags IS cool. :D
http://i270.photobucket.com/albums/jj107/diginit/4a27623d.jpg

You might look cool with my 75 rnd drum in the AK. Not so sure though... looking and being are 2 different things... Now. Back on topic. Keltec makes some good stuff.

xenophobe
01-05-2011, 12:06 PM
Personally, I'm very glad it's a pump.

Agreed.

And a picture for size comparison:

http://personal.visualitymedia.com/personal/misc/keltecshotgunsize.jpg

Man... that thing is freaking awesome.

bignotti
01-05-2011, 12:21 PM
The Benelli military M1014 (as well as the civilian M4) is chrome lined.

MP301
01-07-2011, 10:47 PM
What heppened to the KSG / Shot Show poster? Or was it in a different thread?

nicki
01-08-2011, 3:17 AM
Certainly it is an interesting shotgun and I will keep an open mind.

Few things I would have to check before I would buy one would be the following:

1. How is trigger pull?
2. How fast can it be reloaded?
3. How is Felt recoil.
4. Overall how is gun's feel and balance.

Personally I would load one tube slugs and one tube 00 buck.

I personally wouldn't use less than lethal with this gun since it would be too easy to hit the wrong switch.

Imagine you are doing crowd control and you think you are using the less than lethal and you pop off 7 rounds of 00 buck instead.:rolleyes:



Nicki

MP301
01-08-2011, 4:30 AM
Certainly it is an interesting shotgun and I will keep an open mind.

Few things I would have to check before I would buy one would be the following:

1. How is trigger pull?

My buddy is a gunsmith. If I dont like the trigger pull, Ill get it fixed:p

2. How fast can it be reloaded?

Since you have approx. twice the rds then standard SG's, less important.

3. How is Felt recoil.

Who cares, it looks cool! Besides, Im sure you can get a recoil pad.

4. Overall how is gun's feel and balance.

See answer to number 3.

Personally I would load one tube slugs and one tube 00 buck.

I personally wouldn't use less than lethal with this gun since it would be too easy to hit the wrong switch.

Imagine you are doing crowd control and you think you are using the less than lethal and you pop off 7 rounds of 00 buck instead.:rolleyes:

In CA, shooting at someone with Rubber rds is no different then shooting them with buckshot as far as the law is concerned. Maybe for an animal, but you cant shoot people with LKess that lethal anyway.


Nicki

Come on Nicki, you know you want one!

nicki
01-08-2011, 7:36 AM
It certainly has unique features, but the real question for me is not how cool it looks, it is how hot it functions.

For example, the Streetsweeper carried 12 rounds, but is a major pain to reload.

IMHO, if a gun has so much felt recoil it hurts, you then tend not to practice with it.

Some triggers can't be fixed.

When one of you guys buys one of these things, I will ask to try it.

The gun is not pretty, but I do like the function of the bullpup design.

xenophobe
01-08-2011, 3:04 PM
4. Overall how is gun's feel and balance.

Wow, have you actually looked at it much?

Grip looks somewhat ergonomic... cheekrest is angled and wide... similar to a LMT SOPMOD stock. If you've ever held a fully loaded full size tactical shotgun, you would know that the butt end is a little light and the center balance point just forward of the receiver. You would also know that it's quite large and has a wide swing arc not very suitable for indoor use. Hopefully the barrel is cut for chokes or has enough meat at the end to have one installed. I expect a flash suppressor/brake to be made for this relatively soon after it's released.

The KSB fully loaded would most likely balance at or slightly behind the grip and even though it will most likely be relatively heavy it with have a light and short front end and would most likely traverse/swing quickly and wouldn't be hampered so much by confined areas.

The fact that it doesn't have an external detachable magazine makes it that much more compact... and with 14+1 round capacity, you shouldn't ever need any more... And reloading it with your off-hand while maintaining a sight picture should be relatively easy once you get the hang of it....

Similar in feature to the Neostead, but the shotgun pump operating normally is a much better design, IMO. Also using a more traditional cycling bolt inside of a receiver instead of having the whole barreled action move forward every time you want to cycle a round is both more compact and won't obstruct you in confined areas and less wear and tear to deal with. It also looks like it's far better engineered, to be honest.

For the first time in a long while, I'm truly looking forward to this hitting the market. To me, this design is pure win for so many reasons. I don't even need to hold one to know that I'll be quite happy to own one.

gunsmith
01-08-2011, 3:19 PM
whats not to love about this?? Kel Tec hit the ball out of the park! especially if it is indeed CA legal. ( huge market) I also want to get that 30 round .22 they have.

I wish they made a .308

ForceofNations
01-08-2011, 3:46 PM
I can't wait to get my hands on one of these...I guess it's going on my list for 2011 (read 2015ish)...

TKM
01-08-2011, 3:53 PM
whats not to love about this?? Kel Tec hit the ball out of the park! especially if it is indeed CA legal. ( huge market) I also want to get that 30 round .22 they have.

I wish they made a .308

Ask and ye shall receive, a few years ago too.

http://www.gunblast.com/KelTec-RFB.htm

NSR500
01-08-2011, 4:03 PM
Xenophobe covered it pretty well on what is possible with this design. It has my attention thus far.

robcoe
01-08-2011, 4:15 PM
wow, if this actualy does fly with califonia law I'll have to save some money and get one.

plan-b
01-08-2011, 5:39 PM
So um... who do I give my CC number to for this badboy? :D

nicki
01-08-2011, 6:37 PM
My concerns about this "shotgun" will be addressed once I actually have a chance to fire one.

I especially like the following features:

1. Short overall length
2. Split Magazine which means practical "dual load" capability.

Who knows, it could lead the way to a "Semi Auto" version although that would have to be 30 inches long.

Bright side is that would mean an extra 2 to 4 shells capacity.:43:

Nicki

ForceofNations
01-08-2011, 8:40 PM
My concerns about this "shotgun" will be addressed once I actually have a chance to fire one.

I especially like the following features:

1. Short overall length
2. Split Magazine which means practical "dual load" capability.

Who knows, it could lead the way to a "Semi Auto" version although that would have to be 30 inches long.

Bright side is that would mean an extra 2 to 4 shells capacity.:43:

Nicki

I think the two magazine tubes are the best thing about this. For HD I'm thinking slugs in one and 00 Buck in the other.

MP301
01-08-2011, 8:47 PM
So um... who do I give my CC number to for this badboy? :D

Maybe me! Ill let you all know when I get back from the Shotshow...or maybe ill post from their booth. My other job is working for my buddies gun shop and we will see about availability in about 10 days at Shot.

If they can tell us it is CA legal and that it will be availble, we might start taking orders. We shall see!

I know I want one!

rabagley
01-08-2011, 9:54 PM
The KTOG forum threads seem to indicate that it's not ready for production yet. Various Kel-Tec people saying "Can't be more specific than 'released in 2011'."

My money is set aside and waiting for this gun. I will own one. Since it looks like I'll be moving to Washington (state) in early 2012, even if unobtanium in CA, I'll just keep my pennies in the jar for a few more months until I can buy it in a less hoplophobic state.

DannyInSoCal
01-13-2011, 9:41 PM
I want one for each hand....!!!

Cali-V
01-13-2011, 10:09 PM
I want one for each hand....!!!

I'd definitely take one... as a pump-action two would be, slightly too much for me to cycle...