PDA

View Full Version : WTK: AB962 Questions from out of State vendor


ammo1a
01-03-2011, 12:13 PM
Hi,
I work at ammunitionstore.com we sell retail and wholesale mail order to California at the present time. I have read alot about the new law here on calguns.net
I have some questions and statements for those who are experts with the new law.

1. The law takes effect Feb 1st - As a shipper I was going to have a cut off of handgun ammo to Ca 2 weeks before law takes effect.

2. The reason for the 2 weeks is that UPS may take longer than expected to deliver packages and I wanted to make sure customer received ammo before law takes effect.

3. I wonder if I ship out handgun ammo today and UPS looses it for a month finds it and ships it to a customer in Ca after the law takes effect who is in trouble?

4. I have not been able to read anywhere what the punishment is for an out of state shipper who sends pistol ammo to Ca after ban.

Does anyone know about this law that can help?

jtmkinsd
01-03-2011, 3:27 PM
Hi,
I work at ammunitionstore.com we sell retail and wholesale mail order to California at the present time. I have read alot about the new law here on calguns.net
I have some questions and statements for those who are experts with the new law.

1. The law takes effect Feb 1st - As a shipper I was going to have a cut off of handgun ammo to Ca 2 weeks before law takes effect.

2. The reason for the 2 weeks is that UPS may take longer than expected to deliver packages and I wanted to make sure customer received ammo before law takes effect.

3. I wonder if I ship out handgun ammo today and UPS looses it for a month finds it and ships it to a customer in Ca after the law takes effect who is in trouble?

4. I have not been able to read anywhere what the punishment is for an out of state shipper who sends pistol ammo to Ca after ban.

Does anyone know about this law that can help?

Somewhat odd post...you want us to agree you should stop shipping ammo to CA? Can you define "handgun ammo" please? It seems DOJ is having difficulty doing that themselves. There are also numerous exemptions to the law (assuming it goes into effect at all). Please read the law http://www.ab962.org/ReadAB962.aspx

As far as "getting in trouble" for shipping...once it leaves your control...you're not liable. And "punishment"? I'd love to know how CA imposes and enforces it's laws outside the State as well...that's a total mystery to me.

tabrisnet
01-03-2011, 3:36 PM
Well, _someone_ is liable (presumably the sheriff will have to try to hold someone liable). Presumably UPS for not checking ID?

As to enforcing its laws outside of the state... is something I'll leave to lawyers.

My guess as to why CTD planned to stop shipping Jan1st rather than Feb1st, or Feb1 - shipping time, was backorders.

Further, I don't think he wants us to agree that he should, but rather provide some guidance as to what his obligations are. He put forth his current understanding, and was challenging us to come up with a legal excuse that he might do otherwise.

taperxz
01-03-2011, 3:46 PM
My OPINION is this, If you label the box rifle ammo then its not pistol ammo!!

PhantomII
01-03-2011, 4:10 PM
My thoughts (I'm not an attorney and I've never stayed at a Holiday Inn Express) is that the sale (transfer of ownership) takes place the moment a customers credit card is charged so if I were to order handgun ammunition on Jan. 30th and you were to ship it and charge my card on the 31st it doesn't matter when it gets delivered. The sale took place prior to Feb 1.

Librarian
01-03-2011, 4:35 PM
Hi,
I work at ammunitionstore.com we sell retail and wholesale mail order to California at the present time. I have read alot about the new law here on calguns.net
I have some questions and statements for those who are experts with the new law.

1. The law takes effect Feb 1st - As a shipper I was going to have a cut off of handgun ammo to Ca 2 weeks before law takes effect.

2. The reason for the 2 weeks is that UPS may take longer than expected to deliver packages and I wanted to make sure customer received ammo before law takes effect.

3. I wonder if I ship out handgun ammo today and UPS looses it for a month finds it and ships it to a customer in Ca after the law takes effect who is in trouble?

4. I have not been able to read anywhere what the punishment is for an out of state shipper who sends pistol ammo to Ca after ban.

Does anyone know about this law that can help?

Welcome to Calguns! Thanks for dropping by.

To answer (4) first, violation of 12061(a)(3) (http://www.leginfo.ca.gov/pub/09-10/bill/asm/ab_0951-1000/ab_962_bill_20091011_chaptered.html) - the "face to face" part of the law - would be a misdemeanor per 12061(c) (c) (1) A violation of paragraph (3), (4), (6), or (7) of subdivision (a) is a misdemeanor.

As to other comments, it isn't yet determined what 'handgun ammunition' really is, but that doesn't reduce your concerns as a seller.

If I were in that position, I'd include all the obvious handgun ammo - e.g. .38 special, .357 magnum, .357 Sig, 9mm, .40 S&W, .45 ACP, those sorts of things - with apologies to those who have non-handgun applications for those calibers.

I'd like to think that California would 'give points' for a good faith effort, and suggest that such an ammo list and your two weeks cutoff might be good enough in a climate of uncertainty as we now have. Unfortunately, I can't give those assurances with our current elected officials and legislators. What records they have indicate a strong lack of good sense regarding anything to do with guns.

CaliforniaLiberal
01-03-2011, 5:04 PM
Hi,
I work at ammunitionstore.com we sell retail and wholesale mail order to California at the present time. I have read alot about the new law here on calguns.net
I have some questions and statements for those who are experts with the new law.

1. The law takes effect Feb 1st - As a shipper I was going to have a cut off of handgun ammo to Ca 2 weeks before law takes effect.

2. The reason for the 2 weeks is that UPS may take longer than expected to deliver packages and I wanted to make sure customer received ammo before law takes effect.

3. I wonder if I ship out handgun ammo today and UPS looses it for a month finds it and ships it to a customer in Ca after the law takes effect who is in trouble?

4. I have not been able to read anywhere what the punishment is for an out of state shipper who sends pistol ammo to Ca after ban.

Does anyone know about this law that can help?


If you are serious you need to be talking to your lawyer. It is not wise to seek legal advise on an online forum.

There is a lot of controversy and debate, this is not a carefully written, understandable law, lots of unanswered questions, no one can say how this will play out in the end. We're all waiting and watching.

bussda
01-03-2011, 5:06 PM
Go look at http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=376139 .
Or search the threads for AB962.

G17GUY
01-03-2011, 7:27 PM
Welcome to Calguns! Thanks for dropping by.

To answer (4) first, violation of 12061(a)(3) (http://www.leginfo.ca.gov/pub/09-10/bill/asm/ab_0951-1000/ab_962_bill_20091011_chaptered.html) - the "face to face" part of the law - would be a misdemeanor per 12061(c)

As to other comments, it isn't yet determined what 'handgun ammunition' really is, but that doesn't reduce your concerns as a seller.

If I were in that position, I'd include all the obvious handgun ammo - e.g. .38 special, .357 magnum, .357 Sig, 9mm, .40 S&W, .45 ACP, those sorts of things - with apologies to those who have non-handgun applications for those calibers.

I'd like to think that California would 'give points' for a good faith effort, and suggest that such an ammo list and your two weeks cutoff might be good enough in a climate of uncertainty as we now have. Unfortunately, I can't give those assurances with our current elected officials and legislators. What records they have indicate a strong lack of good sense regarding anything to do with guns.


What if CGF created a letter that could be sent with an ammunition order that swore under penalty of perjury (by the purchaser) that the ammunition being purchased, was not being purchased to be used in a handgun. ?

dfletcher
01-03-2011, 7:44 PM
Hi,
I work at ammunitionstore.com we sell retail and wholesale mail order to California at the present time. I have read alot about the new law here on calguns.net
I have some questions and statements for those who are experts with the new law.

1. The law takes effect Feb 1st - As a shipper I was going to have a cut off of handgun ammo to Ca 2 weeks before law takes effect.

2. The reason for the 2 weeks is that UPS may take longer than expected to deliver packages and I wanted to make sure customer received ammo before law takes effect.

3. I wonder if I ship out handgun ammo today and UPS looses it for a month finds it and ships it to a customer in Ca after the law takes effect who is in trouble?

4. I have not been able to read anywhere what the punishment is for an out of state shipper who sends pistol ammo to Ca after ban.

Does anyone know about this law that can help?

I don't know the answer to your "who's on the hook" question.

Further down the road, an exemption exists that allows CA residents to still receive handgun ammo through the mail & for you to continue legally selling. Those of us with a C & R FFL and a CA issued Certificate of Eligibility are exempt from the law - are you folks able to do that and continue selling in CA?

ammo1a
01-03-2011, 8:32 PM
jtmkinsd: I have read the law, I dont plan on stopping the sales of legal ammunition to Ca. I dont intend to break the law either. AB962 is a shame, I cant believe this is happening in America.

I had an idea for ordering online to put a box in the order area of your shopping cart that you can check either pistol or rifle. If you check pistol it kicks you out if rifle than you proceed to checkout.

PhantomII: I see your point and agree with your thought.

CaliforniaLiberal: I can see it now a bill for 10k to research the law for me and then the lawyer telling me "dont sell to Ca" and you will be fine.

dfletcher: We would not stop selling to exempted customers.

Thanks for all the replies. Im sorry this law has happened to those in Ca.
I will keep reading these boards for updated info!

bsim
01-03-2011, 8:52 PM
First of all, THANK YOU for coming here. If more vendors stayed up on things, we wouldn't have so many folks say "screw CA", and leave all together.

2nd, I think your ideas make sense, but as Librarian mentioned, even we don't know what the definitions are regarding handgun ammo. And it's less than a month away.

Please keep checkin in...

asme
01-03-2011, 9:01 PM
I had an idea for ordering online to put a box in the order area of your shopping cart that you can check either pistol or rifle. If you check pistol it kicks you out if rifle than you proceed to checkout.



That is one excellent idea.

send it_hit
01-03-2011, 9:15 PM
First of all, THANK YOU for coming here. If more vendors stayed up on things, we wouldn't have so many folks say "screw CA", and leave all together.

2nd, I think your ideas make sense, but as Librarian mentioned, even we don't know what the definitions are regarding handgun ammo. And it's less than a month away.

Please keep checkin in...

+1 Thanks for caring... Welcome to the forum! :)

jtmkinsd
01-03-2011, 9:24 PM
I had an idea for ordering online to put a box in the order area of your shopping cart that you can check either pistol or rifle. If you check pistol it kicks you out if rifle than you proceed to checkout.

While this may be plausible...the only problem I see would be if I can check the "rifle" box, and still order .45 ACP rounds.

The problem we face here is there's less than a month until this idiotic law is supposed to go into effect and nobody knows what the heck they're doing...most of all the people who wrote the ridiculous law and DOJ (Department of Justice). As usual...they are really "Johnny on the spot" with the necessary clarification everyone needs. :rolleyes:

Aspec5vz
01-03-2011, 9:38 PM
I like that idea...remind me to start ordering ammo from you guys!

Hey you might need .45 acp for your AO Thompson ;)

stitchnicklas
01-03-2011, 10:50 PM
jtmkinsd:

dfletcher: We would not stop selling to exempted customers.

Thanks for all the replies. Im sorry this law has happened to those in Ca.
I will keep reading these boards for updated info!

thank you for understanding the exception for us ffl/coe combo holders,is there a registration process on your site for filing the appropriate documents with you?.this way we can continue buying our handgun ammo and you keep our business:cool:

DeanW66
01-04-2011, 8:53 AM
As others have said, welcome aboard and thanks for your support in this time of confusion.

Smokeybehr
01-04-2011, 8:57 AM
Apparently, Cabela's won't be shipping ANY ammunition to CA, and not just handgun ammo. They're using an order cutoff date of 1/21 per their latest toy catalog.

dfletcher
01-04-2011, 9:10 AM
How about a box that says "I certify this ammunition is being used in a long gun" or words to that effect? I use "rifle" calibers in my T/C handguns - 25.06, 8mm Mauser, 405 Winchester and about 20 others - might be worthwhile to have that box on all ammo transactions?

I buy cigars through the mail, they have a "I'm over 18" box to check before the sale goes through.

Back to the C & R/COE exemption - if we send those in, we'll be able to buy handgun ammo, a system will be in place?

prc77
01-04-2011, 9:19 AM
Apparently, Cabela's won't be shipping ANY ammunition to CA, and not just handgun ammo. They're using an order cutoff date of 1/21 per their latest toy catalog.


true,, just got the new shooting catalogue, only mention handgun ammo

http://i442.photobucket.com/albums/qq149/prc77509th/Scan10001.jpg

himurax13
01-04-2011, 9:24 AM
Why can't vendor's just lable all ammo as rifle ammo and have a quote stating that it is for rifle use only?

infamous209
01-04-2011, 9:27 AM
First off this law is stupid, what should happen is gun shop owners should stop selling ammo to leo. I support our law enforcement but i support our gun rights more. Thanks to the OP for prying into the law to try to find out what to do. How do they know if its truly for a handgun or rifle? I think the law confusion is a ploy to keep ALL ammo from being shipped into Cali, more of a scare tactic.

stitchnicklas
01-04-2011, 11:00 AM
i have a account with ammunitionstore.com and emailed them back and forth since yesterday,i emailed them scans of my dl,ffl,coe,and am now good to go.

i recommend others do the same and give this business our money since they want to support us and calguns also...:cool:

Chris M
01-04-2011, 3:15 PM
I also found this, which Vendors may want to be aware of (I hope I'm wrong):

According to the Calguns Wiki:

Additionally, should AB-962 take effect, the C&R and COE should legally exempt you from the ban on interstate handgun ammunition mail/internet ordering.

http://wiki.calgunsfoundation.org/index.php/Certificate_of_Eligibility

If I'm reading the below correctly, that's not entirely true.

(7) Commencing February 1, 2011, no vendor shall refuse to permit a person authorized under paragraph (5) to examine any record prepared in accordance with this section during any inspection conducted pursuant to this section, or refuse to permit the use of any record or information by those persons. (b) Paragraph (3) of subdivision (a) shall not apply to or affect sales or other transfers of ownership of handgun ammunition by handgun ammunition vendors to any of the following, if properly identified:

* (1) A person licensed pursuant to Section 12071 (see below).
* (2) A handgun ammunition vendor.
* (3) A person who is on the centralized list maintained by the department pursuant to Section 12083. (see below)
* (4) A target facility which holds a business or regulatory license.
* (5) Gunsmiths.
* (6) Wholesalers.
* (7) Manufacturers or importers of firearms licensed pursuant to Chapter 44 (commencing with Section 921) of Title 18 of the United States Code, and the regulations issued pursuant thereto.


12071. (a)(1) As used in this chapter, the term "licensee," "person licensed pursuant to Section 12071," or "dealer" means a person who has all of the following:
(A) A valid federal firearms license.
(B) Any regulatory or business license, or licenses, required by local government.
(C) A valid seller's permit issued by the State Board of Equalization.
(D) A certificate of eligibility issued by the Department of Justice pursuant to paragraph (4).
(E) A license issued in the format prescribed by paragraph (6).
(F) Is among those recorded in the centralized list specified in subdivision (e).


12083. (a) Commencing January 1, 2008, the Department of Justice shall keep a centralized list of persons who identify themselves as being licensed pursuant to Chapter 44 (commencing with Section 921) (http://codes.lp.findlaw.com/uscode/18/I/44/921) of Title 18 of the United States Code as a dealer, pawnbroker, importer or manufacturer of firearms whose licensed premises are within this state and who declare to the department an exemption from the firearms dealer licensing requirements of Section 12070. The list shall be known as the centralized list of exempted federal firearms licensees. To qualify for placement on the centralized list, an applicant shall do all of the following:
(1) Possess a valid federal firearms license pursuant to Chapter 44 (commencing with Section 921) of Title 18 of the United States Code as a dealer, pawnbroker, importer, or manufacturer of firearms. (no mention of "collector" = C&R FFL 03)
(2) Maintain eligibility under California law to possess firearms by possessing a current, valid certificate of eligibility pursuant to Section 12071.
(3) Maintain with the department a signed declaration enumerating the applicant's statutory exemptions from licensing requirements of Section 12070.

If I'm wrong, I humbly apologize, and ask that you please correct me.

Librarian
01-04-2011, 3:26 PM
Reading the wrong parts:

SEC. 7. Section 12318 is added to the Penal Code, to read:
12318. (a) Commencing February 1, 2011, the delivery or transfer
of ownership of handgun ammunition may only occur in a face-to-face
transaction with the deliverer or transferor being provided bona fide
evidence of identity from the purchaser or other transferee. A
violation of this section is a misdemeanor.
...
(c) Subdivision (a) shall not apply to or affect the deliveries,
transfers, or sales of, handgun ammunition to any of the following:
...
(6) Persons licensed as collectors of firearms pursuant to Chapter
44 (commencing with Section 921) of Title 18 of the United States
Code and the regulations issued pursuant thereto whose licensed
premises are within this state who has a current certificate of
eligibility issued to him or her by the Department of Justice
pursuant to Section 12071.

diginit
01-04-2011, 3:35 PM
(D) A certificate of eligibility issued by the Department of Justice pursuant to paragraph (4).
(E) A license issued in the format prescribed by paragraph (6).


Equals a COE and FFL.

diginit
01-04-2011, 3:37 PM
What happened to violation of interstate commerce?

Chris M
01-04-2011, 3:39 PM
Equals a COE and FFL.

Right, but D+E /= A+B+C+D+E+F

Key word "All".

diginit
01-04-2011, 3:46 PM
Our legislators have lost their minds...If I find one, I'll ship it back with instructions for proper re-installation thru the rectum.

VAReact
01-04-2011, 4:11 PM
Our legislators have lost their minds...If I find one, I'll ship it back with instructions for proper re-installation thru the rectum.

Your statement implies that they had minds to begin with... :mad:

OleCuss
01-04-2011, 4:40 PM
I just want to point out that the additional (and most onerous provisions) of AB962 may never take effect?

I believe that CRPA has a pending case which will be heard and decided on the 18th of January - and may effectively kill AB962.

I think stopping taking orders 2 weeks prior to the first of February is good policy. It shows a reasonable attempt to comply with the law and I cannot imagine a prosecutor pursuing a case because I can't imagine their betting that the jury would convict if they brought the case. And since you're not in California anyway - you should be perfectly fine. A part of that calculation is that if AB962 kicks in it will not be long before OOIDA and State Ammunition will be resurrected (because standing will then be clear) and AB962 will likely be gutted then. So why would you want to engage in several years of trying extradite and prosecute when the law is likely to be struck down in a few months and the case mooted?

So shut off sales beginning the middle of this month and check into this forum on the 19th of January to see if you can safely resume sales at that time. If that is not yet the case, I'd check in around the beginning of each month for a few months to see when injunctive relief is achieved.

Ron-Solo
01-04-2011, 5:17 PM
First off this law is stupid, what should happen is gun shop owners should stop selling ammo to leo. I support our law enforcement but i support our gun rights more. Thanks to the OP for prying into the law to try to find out what to do. How do they know if its truly for a handgun or rifle? I think the law confusion is a ploy to keep ALL ammo from being shipped into Cali, more of a scare tactic.

What has not selling to LEO's got to do with this stupid law? Stick with the facts and leave the Anti-LE baloney out of this argument. We're stuck with this BS law also. That's one of the reasons I got my C&R + COE.