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View Full Version : Using a C&R to Deal in Firearms?!!


milsurplover
08-02-2006, 3:03 PM
The following was posted on a popular, free advertising web site. Check out the third to last paragraph (cut and pasted following my intro here) where this C&R holder is offering to sell firearms to anyone. What do y'all think? I e-mailed and told him I thought he was not understanding the purpose and regulations regarding a C&R. He told me to "Frig Off." Am I missing something here?
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As it's greater than 50 years old it doesn't need to pass through an FFL. I sell directly to you. No nonsense, 10 day wait, FFL fees, etc. You give me the money (no checks obviously, I give you the rifle). I copy down your driver's license info for my C&R records. You leave with the rifle. Where else in California can you get a rifle same day? And this is better than most modern rifles in my opinion.

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For sale is a Winchester M1 Garand.

It's USGI in the original 30.06 caliber. If you don't already know you need to shoot M2 ball surplus or M2 ball spec ammo through this. It's not recommended to shoot modern 30.06 ammo unless it's loaded to spec. I know people do, but they're foolish...I'm just telling you what's recommended for you and your rifle. And anyway, surplus M2 ball is much cheaper than buying modern hunting ammo.

Price 850. Photos are below. I might consider trades, but it's unlikely. Since I have a C&R license I can get the things I'm interested in for less than many people think theirs are worth. But we can always see. Here's what I might be interested in... M1 Carbines (no commercial ones, only USGI), Russian SKS, Romanian SKS, Chinese SKS (only if it's a military one with a screwed barrel and milled parts, no pinned/stamped), Yugo SKS, Hakim, FN-49...maybe other C&Rs...ask me. Also possibly moderns...Stainless GP-100, AR-15 uppers (only chrome lined, no junk like Model 1), California legal FAL-type rifles, Ruger 10/22, maybe a bolt action 10/22, .357 lever gun, 12 or 20 gauge riot gun (18.5 - 22 inch barrel...prefer 870s and 590s). Well, I can't make a complete list. You could always ask me. No trades for anything other than firearms.

USGI (United States Government Issue) Garands were made by four manufacturers: Springfield Armory*, Winchester, International Harvester, and Harrington and Richardson. As you can see at the bottom Springfield Armory made the most and the other 3 much fewer.

*Springfield Armory and Springfield Armory Inc are NOT the same. Springfield Armory was a government arsenal making USGI arms. Springfield Armory Inc is a commercial outfit with no connection other than they used the same name. Sprinfield Armory Inc. makes 'new' Garands and M1As which use cast parts and are in my opinion inferior to Springfield Armory. The government Springfield Armory has not made a Garand since the 1950s. The modern Springfield Aromory Inc Garands have no collectible value while the real USGI ones are a piece of history. Ok, enough of that.

I am selling a Winchester Garand. This is fully USGI.

Receiver is Winchester.

Trigger group is Winchester.

Barrel is Springfield Armory 1953.

This rifle came from the CMP and is not import marked.

It's seen some use and the bore/muzzle are worn. Rifling is still present and it should make a decent plinker now/fun range gun. You could always have it rebarelled with a USGI contour 30.06 or .308 barrel and make it into a more accurate shooter. Fulton Armory offers this. Rifle has seen lots of wear, but as this is forged steel it's functional and useable. Or just keep as is. They aren't making anymore Garands...not any real ones anyway. Haven't since the 1950s.

As it's greater than 50 years old it doesn't need to pass through an FFL. I sell directly to you. No nonsense, 10 day wait, FFL fees, etc. You give me the money (no checks obviously, I give you the rifle). I copy down your driver's license info for my C&R records. You leave with the rifle. Where else in California can you get a rifle same day? And this is better than most modern rifles in my opinion.

Besides, this is American military history.

Let me know if interested. Transfer only in Rohnert Park or nearby. Mapquest it before contacting me. Rohnert Park is one hour and 10 minutes north of the Golden Gate Bridge (on the 101). That's without traffic. Thanks

chiefcrash
08-02-2006, 3:09 PM
well, he is entitled to sell a rifle, just not as a buisness. if he's selling this one and only rifle, he's fine. if he only sells a few, he's fine. as long as it doesn't become his livelyhood...

milsurplover
08-02-2006, 3:13 PM
Also read the paragraph starting with "Price 850." He's soliciting people to buy other rifles he doesn't appear to even own. That is my main point. He's specifically ruled out trading and doesn't appear to be culling a collection.

chiefcrash
08-02-2006, 3:19 PM
Also read the paragraph starting with "Price 850." He's soliciting people to buy other rifles he doesn't appear to even own. That is my main point. He's specifically ruled out trading and doesn't appear to be culling a collection.

no, he's listing rifles he MIGHT trade for, not soliciting people to buy them

granted, he doesn't appear to be culling a collection, but from the wording he's not conducting a buisness either.

he's shady, that's for sure...

JPglee1
08-02-2006, 3:37 PM
He's advertising a F-2-F sale of a pre 1956 long gun.

100% legal to do in this state, and one of the reasons I love M1 Garands, 1903s, Pre-56 Russian SKS, M1 Carbines, etc...


J

CalGunsNoob
08-02-2006, 4:55 PM
You're missing something. It's legal in California to sell a rifle greater than 50 years of age without going through an FFL. he's also not soliciting sales on a rifle he doesn't have. He's selling one rifle or asking for trades. You should re-read the paragraph.

People often get confused on this because if a rifle is in a dealer's inventory it's required to be DROSd. If it is sent from out of state it is required to either be DROSd or sent to to a C&R.

However, it is perfectly legal in California for one private party to sell another private party to sell a rifle greater than 50 year than 50 years of age without going through an FFL.

Furthermore, buying and selling items in one's collection does not constitute running a business. Most serious C&R collectors buy and sell to enhance their collections. Seems like many of the trade items he's seeking are C&Rs. Looks like a collector to me. And anyway, it doesn't matter. As stated above it's legal to sell the rifle as he's doing.

As you can see from the ad the price is $850 or trades for those other items. Nothing shady at all here.

Go to www.gunboards.com to see C&R collectors in action. Many C&R guys do this routinely.

Now, as to whether the price of $850 is worth the Garand...well, depends largely on the condition. Winchester command more of a premium. You'd have to see the rifle and evaluate.

CalGunsNoob
08-02-2006, 4:57 PM
Here's a link on the DOJ's website regarding the exemption for 50 years plus...

I need to print this out.
http://www.ag.ca.gov/firearms/pubfaqs.htm#9

Pthfndr
08-02-2006, 5:55 PM
What do y'all think?

I think you were out of line to email someone you (presumably) don't know, out of the clear blue, and tell them they don't know what they're doing.

I also think, like the others said, that you needed to read his posting more thoroughly.

ja391
08-02-2006, 6:16 PM
You mind want to read the info in this thread

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=37348

Joe Register
08-02-2006, 10:08 PM
He is selling a single rifle over 50 years old. It is fairly well described and the price is within a reasonable range. In this case the C&R just puts an extra burden on him because if he didn't have one he wouldn't need to log your information. I took what he was saying as "don't offer me a Turk mauser for $200 worth of trade value when I can buy a five pack of the same from Century at that price.

Now if he said send me $200 and I will order you a Turk mauser then he is potentially asking for trouble.

Perhaps the experts disagree but I do not see it.

snafu510
08-02-2006, 10:53 PM
He had another one one a few weeks ago. He started pretty high and only leaves the post up for a day or so. Reposts every few days. Eventually it got down to $395 I think. It was not as nice as this one though. His presentation turns me off a little.

thisismyboomstick
08-03-2006, 8:45 AM
He told me to "Frig Off."

I would have told you the same thing.

People need to learn to mind their own business.

50 Freak
08-03-2006, 10:00 AM
Milsurp,

Bite the bullet and send an apology e-mail. Tell him you were just trying to look out for a fellow gun nut but unfortunately you were wrong....No hard feelings...

milsurplover
08-03-2006, 8:23 PM
Ok...thanks to all for the suggestions and (advice). Everyone gave good info: save for "Boom stick." And special thanks 50 Freak for the encouragement to do the right thing - I'll do that.

My impetus for asking (original intention) may have been more clear if I posted some of the follow-on solicitations I received to the effect of "tell me what you want and i can get it for you without any hassle/paperwork." I was under the idea that a C&R isn't intended for making sales on a regular and ongoing basis/advertsing. Guess things may be different in CA than where I live (which is weird cause I hear CA has some strict regs.) Whatever.

To be sure I don't live there so my bad.

whatever
08-05-2006, 1:29 AM
The guy you are writing about is a frequent poster here. In fact he has been posting about how much he has been getting M1's from the CMP. Another fact is he's also now posting about how eager he is to buy from the CMP at the Reno gunshow.

Regardless of the C&R bit, I thought it was a no-no to sell your CMP guns, especially at higher than CMP prices.

On the surface it looks like he's conducting some very rapid culling of his collection, buying numerous rifles, selling the worst examples at a profit.

I noticed his ads too on craigslist and wondered about it. It's not a way I would conduct myself and definitely not a way I would phrase my ads.

finfan
08-05-2006, 6:14 PM
Previous post have sort of covered all this. I think the ultimate
consensus was "to each his own" as far as interpreting the C&R Regs.
I take a more conservative view of the regs than others & probably
wouldn't engage in some of this subjects activities.
As far as CMP, no they (at least in the past) don't allow sales (for profit or
otherwise) of rifle purchases You make through them. However, there's absolutly no enforcement of this policy to speak of. So again... too each His own! :)

CTT2
08-06-2006, 2:51 PM
Here's a link on the DOJ's website regarding the exemption for 50 years plus...

I need to print this out.
http://www.ag.ca.gov/firearms/pubfaqs.htm#9


The exemption only applies to the 10-waiting period cut down to 0 if the recieving person has a C&R and COE from the CDOJ. This is for C&R handguns. Long guns do not have a waiting period. It doesn't say that you can transfer to an individual who is not licensed. And you still cannot bring in C&R guns that meet California AW definitions.

CalGunsNoob
08-06-2006, 3:10 PM
You're mistaken. You're cionfusing firearms that are in a dealers inventory versus those in the hands of a private party.

A C&R and a COE allows you to cash and carry a C&R (either handgun or long gun) from a California dealers inventory. The 50 year rule does not apply here. If it's C&R you're good.

In a private transfer, meaning not in a dealers inventory, a rifle of 50 years or greater can be sold from one person to another with no FFL or C&R.

Mssr. Eleganté
08-06-2006, 3:20 PM
The exemption only applies to the 10-waiting period cut down to 0 if the recieving person has a C&R and COE from the CDOJ.

Incorrect. The link that CalGunsNoob posted is to the exemption that says C&R long guns over 50 years old don't have to be transfered through an FFL Dealer. A C&R and/or COE is not needed for this exemption.

This is for C&R handguns. Long guns do not have a waiting period

Incorrect. C&R handguns and long guns both have a 10 day waiting period when you purchase from a California FFL Dealer. Having a C&R FFL and a COE exempts you from the 10 day wait on both C&R handguns and C&R Rifles when purchasing from a California FFL Dealer.

It doesn't say that you can transfer to an individual who is not licensed.

Yes it does. This is what the link CalGunsNoob posted says...

I want to sell a gun to another person, i.e., a private party transfer. Am I required to conduct the transaction through a licensed California firearms dealer?

Yes. Firearm sales must be conducted through a fully licensed California firearms dealer... curio or relic rifles/shotguns, defined in Section 178.11 of Title 27 of the Code of Federal Regulations that are over 50 years old, are exempt from this requirement.

And you still cannot bring in C&R guns that meet California AW definitions.

Correct. You got this one right.

CTT2
08-06-2006, 11:07 PM
So what if I wanted to buy a C&R long gun from out of state? Could they just send it to my front door if I have my C&R license but not the COE? Or would it have to go through a FFL?

Fate
08-06-2006, 11:46 PM
As far as CMP, no they (at least in the past) don't allow sales (for profit or
otherwise) of rifle purchases You make through them. However, there's absolutly no enforcement of this policy to speak of.
This is untrue. You are not required to keep a CMP rifle for life or forced to never sell it for a profit.

Sure, you have to sign a form that says the rifle ordered is for your own use, but Orest and the CMP honestly don't care if some people buy lots and sell the ones that don't meet their collecting standards. What they care about is selling rifles to support the marksmanship programs of the CMP. That's it. CMP rifles are sent out "luck of the draw," -- you will get some gems and some dogs. So selling some of the ones received isn't too hard to understand.

Mssr. Eleganté
08-07-2006, 12:38 AM
So what if I wanted to buy a C&R long gun from out of state? Could they just send it to my front door if I have my C&R license but not the COE? Or would it have to go through a FFL?

Yes, as long as the C&R long gun is at least 50 years old you can have it shipped to your door with just your C&R FFL. The COE is only needed when you buy from a California licensed Dealer and only to avoid the 10 day wait for C&R guns or the "one handgun per month" rule on C&R or modern handguns.

The 50 year old C&R long gun exemption in California law is what allows you order from out of state sellers without violating California law. And your C&R FFL is what allows you to order from out of state sellers without violating Federal law.

metalhead357
08-07-2006, 8:14 AM
He had another one one a few weeks ago. He started pretty high and only leaves the post up for a day or so. Reposts every few days. Eventually it got down to $395 I think. It was not as nice as this one though. His presentation turns me off a little.

HOW the heck do you know it was the same guy???????????

I mean I saw the friggin ad; and others like it~ If I'm seeing the same ones all you guys are the e-mail addy is randomized.....are we all talking about a site that starts with C and doesnt like guns?

I was going to actually repond to that ad~ so if you're the one who wrote that- PM ME!!!!!! I had/have some questions!

(and no- its not to do the gunsale.....that should keep Ramon happy:D since the gun seller section went bye bye)

snafu510
08-07-2006, 8:08 PM
pm has been sent.

chiefcrash
08-07-2006, 9:17 PM
okay guys, i think the guy gets the point. let's let him off with all his body parts in tact, ok? it's better to error on the side of caution...

milsurplover
08-08-2006, 11:16 PM
Wow!

I never expected to get all this info. I learned a lot! I guess my conservative nature - once again - attracted what I expected: "Mind my own business" and "to each his own!" Ok...I'm working on that! :'))

ChiefCrash - thanks for your "level-headedness!" And thanks to everyone else for the constructive feedback! Save for the one who flipped me back off! :')

I think this thread should prolly be closed.

Thanks again Y'all!

milsurplover
08-08-2006, 11:23 PM
Oh yea...one more thing - the original impetus for my first post (besides to ascertain my understanding of C&R "dealing" activities:

I'm looking for two Garand's in Service and/or Correct Grade status. The quality of the furniture is not real important. The bore, hard stuff and price is more important to me since I'm assembling a collection for my two sons'.

LMK if you have any product or ideas on how to go about this. I have a C&R and all that cash stuff that everyone likes! :')

Steve S.
East Valley, AZ