PDA

View Full Version : Private party C&R sales in CA question.


wintersborn
01-01-2011, 2:43 PM
Hello I am new to Calguns but it seems to be a great site and I am in need of some information.

I hand picked a couple of 1941 Mosins from Big 5 in the last year but they are too heavy and kick to hard for my GF so I am going to sell them.

What do I need to do to legally sell them as a private party to another private party ? I would assume I would need to verify the purchasers age and ID and make a recept but I am not sure about anything else.

If some one could please list the legal way to sell a C&R as a private party that would be great.

Thanks.

EBR Works
01-01-2011, 2:47 PM
C&R rifles of greater than 50 years of age can be sold without transfer through a dealer. Like you said, verify age and ID plus it would be a good idea to get a signed statement from the purchaser that they are not prohibited from firearms ownership.

Oh, and welcome to Calguns.

wintersborn
01-01-2011, 3:11 PM
Thank you.

So I would need a statement of facts on the recipt about not being prohibited to own a firearm. Do I need to document the SN# of the guns ?

After the sale do I send a copy to the DOJ or something like a release of liabillity with the DMV ?

paul0660
01-01-2011, 3:18 PM
I document the sale with a receipt including the serial number, and a separate statement of eligibility from the purchaser. You don't have to file anything.

Also, these transactions don't have to be face to face. It can be done without meeting the purchaser, and the rifle sent through the mail or UPS.

wintersborn
01-01-2011, 4:07 PM
If you sell them not face to face how do you verify their ID ?
Will a photo copy of their DL be legal ?

Thanks again for the info, just making sure its done right.

Anchors
01-01-2011, 4:13 PM
Hey wintersborn, I sent you a PM.

Cokebottle
01-01-2011, 4:29 PM
Thank you.

So I would need a statement of facts on the recipt about not being prohibited to own a firearm. Do I need to document the SN# of the guns ?

After the sale do I send a copy to the DOJ or something like a release of liabillity with the DMV ?
If you are not an 03FFL, there is no requirement that you keep any records of any kind.
You can CYA by verifying that they are over 18 through checking their ID, but you do not have access to background check information, so you have to take their word for it that they are not a prohibited person.

If you are an 03FFL, then you have to document their ID information in your bound book, but as to their eligibility status, you still have to take their word for it.

But as a non-03FFL, if anyone asks, your response is "what gun?"

paul0660
01-01-2011, 4:50 PM
But as a non-03FFL, if anyone asks, your response is "what gun?"

However, depending on where YOU got the gun, there may be a paper trail leading to you. It is for this reason I like to have a record of to whom I sell.

Will a photo copy of their DL be legal ?


As cokebottle pointed out, there isn't a requirement for recordkeeping, so a photocopy of a DL is even more than is required.

Cokebottle
01-01-2011, 4:57 PM
However, depending on where YOU got the gun, there may be a paper trail leading to you. It is for this reason I like to have a record of to whom I sell.
True, but like I said... "What gun?" and "Do you have a warrant?" and "I need to talk to my attorney" are all you need to know.
If they have a warrant, or you decide to surrender your 4A/5A rights, then a simple explanation of "Ya, I sold that gun 2 years ago. It was over 50 years old so I didn't have to go through a gun shop"

And the serial number of that gun would not be traceable to you in any case, because long guns are not registered and the 4473 is in a box at the FFL.
If it is a new gun, the manufacturer can tell the BATFE what dealer received it, but in the case of a C&R... many of which do not even have serial numbers... there is no way to trace it.
As cokebottle pointed out, there isn't a requirement for recordkeeping, so a photocopy of a DL is even more than is required.
And as a non-03 dealing with a non-03, I would be unwilling to provide more than a flash of my ID as age verification.
As an 03, I have to get the ID information from the buyer/seller, so I would provide the same out of courtesy.
A non-03 has no legitimate reason to document my address or DL number.

wintersborn
01-01-2011, 6:17 PM
I filled out the DROS? forms when I purchased them through the store so I was not sure if I needed to show/file the proof of sale.

I replied to your PM, thanks.

Thanks again for all the info I may post them for sale here soon. They are just 1941 Izhevsk's so I dont think they are collection worthy.

tuna quesadilla
01-01-2011, 6:52 PM
I bought a C&R rifle off the classifieds here once upon a time.

We met up in a large parking lot. The seller checked my ID and handed me the rifle to look over. I handed him the cash. We shook hands, talked about shooting for a few minutes, then went on our separate ways. It's really as simple as that. I think the other posters in this thread have done a good job of describing your responsibilities as a seller of a 50+ C&R rifle.

paul0660
01-01-2011, 7:12 PM
A non-03 has no legitimate reason to document my address or DL number.

If I buy a gun from an 03, my name is in his bound book, which are routinely copied by BATF during yearly inspections. If I sell it and the gun gets used in a crime, I don't want to be the last person in the documented chain of custody, so I get info on the buyer.

It's true 01 long gun records are more sketchy, but if they get sufficiently interested, they can at least put you on a short list of people who might have owned the gun in question.

If you do a parking lot buy without emails, phone calls, IM's previous to the sale or after, you are certainly in the clear, and have an untraceable gun. Otherwise, I assume even the nicest guy in the world will tell investigators all he knows about where he got, or got rid of a gun to get them off his back.

You don't want to give me info, I don't want to sell you my gun. No biggee.

Cokebottle
01-01-2011, 7:33 PM
If I buy a gun from an 03, my name is in his bound book, which are routinely copied by BATF during yearly inspections. If I sell it and the gun gets used in a crime, I don't want to be the last person in the documented chain of custody, so I get info on the buyer.
Except there is no way to trace it.

Yes, the gun and it's serial number, as well as the buyer, and the information from the person I bought it from, are in my bound book.

The BATFE doesn't know that.

If I sell the gun, it is used in a crime, best they could possibly do is trace it to the importer, and possibly to the dealer or person the importer shipped it to.
At that point, the documentation trail is broken unless or until it moves into the hands of an 03, or is transferred interstate through an 01.

But there's no way to trace it.
If the BATFE pulls an audit of my bound book, they are going to inspect my guns and verify that they are logged, and verify that there is nothing logged that is not in my collection.

Like any long gun, it would be a slow, manual process of "following" the gun from the importer through to the last documented owner, and that assumes that nobody in that chain says "get a warrant".
The moment someone in that chain says "get a warrant", the trail is cold. If the person that says "get a warrant" is 400 miles away from the crime scene and there's no other evidence linking him to the crime, the warrant would not be issued.
There are no electronic 4473 records, so this even holds true for modern long guns.
I buy an SR556 from Turners, my information goes into their file.
I sell it through Riflegear, the buyer's information goes into their files.... and so on.
The BATFE can trace it from Ruger to Turners, and then to me. I have two options. "I sold it through Riflegear", or "Get a warrant".
They now have to audit Riflegear to find out who I sold it to... and so on.

It is a long and arduous task to trace the chain of ownership on long guns... which is exactly why the gun-grabbers want registration for all guns. They want to be able to go to their terminal and immediately locate the most recent registered owner, rather than having to start on a chain that may have began 20 years ago 3 states away.
You don't want to give me info, I don't want to sell you my gun. No biggee.Like I said, as an 03, I need your information for my bound book, and would provide the same as a courtesy. I wouldn't feel right asking for yours without providing mine.
If I were not an 03, and were buying from/selling to an 03, I would have to provide that information... but I wouldn't ask for it, other than asking to see his 03 certificate.

1-M-42
01-01-2011, 7:44 PM
Post them in the for sale section of Calguns....some of us might be happy to take them off your hands.

paul0660
01-01-2011, 7:48 PM
Cokebottle, batf can and does make notes of bound book entries, besides the simple comparison of book vs. inventory. (If you do the inspection at their place, they can just throw it on their copier). I have never had an audit, but have read several reports from others who have had them, and this action has been noted some of the time. So, if I buy a gun from an 03, unless I get the name etc from someone I sell the gun to, I may be the last known owner.

Not sure if we are going over the same ground here, or if I am confusing the issue, but I don't see any advantage to me of not getting buyer's info.

Cokebottle
01-01-2011, 8:07 PM
Cokebottle, batf can and does make notes of bound book entries, besides the simple comparison of book vs. inventory. (If you do the inspection at their place, they can just throw it on their copier). I have never had an audit, but have read several reports from others who have had them, and this action has been noted some of the time. So, if I buy a gun from an 03, unless I get the name etc from someone I sell the gun to, I may be the last known owner.

Not sure if we are going over the same ground here, or if I am confusing the issue, but I don't see any advantage to me of not getting buyer's info.
No advantage in not getting it, but my point is there is really no advantage to getting it.

Even if the BATFE takes photocopies of the 03's bound book, what happens to it? Doubtful it's put into a referencable database, and even if it is, many guns from before the 1980s lacked serial numbers, and there were many duplicate serial numbers.

The BATFE may get "lucky" and be able to tie a long gun to someone, but most likely not.
It it doubtful that they would invest the time and manpower in contacting (and obtaining warrants) on every owner from the importer through it's last transfer unless it was a high profile murder case, or attempted murder of an elected official.

wintersborn
01-02-2011, 11:12 AM
I will soon 1-m-42.

You guys kind of lost me with all the 03, 01, 4477 stuff as I am sure that is for dealers but good info non the less : )

I suppose providing a copy of my DL or if I still have the original recept to the buyer would be a good idea, that way he/she knows that I did not steal it or something.

I have nothing to hide and would only feel comfortable selling to the same kind of person. I think most of us gun nuts are reasonable and would appreciate a fair deal that they know is on the up and up.

Cokebottle
01-02-2011, 11:53 AM
You guys kind of lost me with all the 03, 01, 4477 stuff as I am sure that is for dealers but good info non the less : )
If you want to get into vintage rifles, you will eventually learn about it.

01FFL - Licensed Dealer
02FFL - Pawnbroker/Licensed Dealer
03FFL - Private individual licensed to collect curios or relics. Does not allow for resale.
07FFL - Licensed Manufacturer, the license also allows retail sales.
4473 - BATFE form that the (01/02/07) dealer completes and stores in his files for 20 years for every gun transferred.
DROS - California Dealer Record Of Sale. California form that the (01/02/07) dealer completes and stores in his files, and transmits electronically to Sacramento, for every gun transferred. This is also the form that transmits handgun registration.

Why is this important? To fill up your safe!
Get your 03FFL and you can drive to Arizona, fill your truck up with C&R rifles and handguns, no waiting period, and bring them home with you. Handguns still have to be registered, but that's only $19 and mailed paperwork. No DROS or waiting period!

Without the 03, you're stuck buying either private party (cash and carry), or from a dealer (through a dealer for interstate sales).
Add a COE to your 03 and you become exempt from the 10 day waiting period for C&R guns on dealer sales.
I have nothing to hide and would only feel comfortable selling to the same kind of person. I think most of us gun nuts are reasonable and would appreciate a fair deal that they know is on the up and up.
"Gun people" also tend to be pretty private and discreet about their privacy, address, and firearms they own. This is the reason that if you scan the marketplace, you'll see that the majority of guns are sold without someone saying "I'll take it"... they'll just send a PM to the seller and handle everything in private.
A person may trust you enough to believe that you are not selling a stolen gun, but they may not trust you enough to divulge their address. I've engaged in probably 20 transactions (non firearm) with Calgunners, and in every case except for a vehicle that I purchased, the transactions took place in a parking lot near the sellers home. In the case of the vehicle, the initial evaluation and test drive were from a parking lot. It wasn't until we were ready to seal the deal that the seller lead me to his home to complete the paperwork.

paul0660
01-02-2011, 12:16 PM
Doubtful it's put into a referencable database,

Ok, I am clear now. You see my point, but don't share my paranoia.

Cokebottle
01-02-2011, 12:35 PM
Ok, I am clear now. You see my point, but don't share my paranoia.
Exactly.

If long gun registration becomes a reality, then I'd be more inclined to agree with you, but at the present time, too many things have to "Fall together" in the DA's favor to be able to trace a long gun beyond it's initial purchaser.

And yes... it's the DA that would be handling the case. High enough profile and he might be able to get the BATFE and DOJ involved, which is the only way that he's going to be able to determine even the original purchaser.