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Shiboleth
01-01-2011, 3:57 AM
I have a G19 that I carry with my CCW, and I absolutely love it. I bought it for self defense, and the reason I went with a 9mm over a larger caliber was mainly the cost issue since I planned on putting a large amount of rounds through it to train. I've since purchased an advantage arms 22 conversion for it, and another 22 pistol, so I've mainly been shooting 22 since it's so cheap. So I've been thinking that since the reason I chose 9mm isn't much of an issue anymore, that maybe I should step it up to a 40 or 45.

My question is, is it worth it? I know that the 9mm can be a very effective defensive round, but it seems like a big reason LEO choose it is because of the capacity. Since I can't legally acquire standard capacity magazines, is there anything to recommend the 9mm over something larger? I appreciate any thoughts.

grammaton76
01-01-2011, 4:05 AM
This is one of the reasons why my first handgun was a CZ-97B... can't get mags over 10rds so why not get a 45 that fits 10 instead of a 9mm?

I would suggest maybe looking at 40S&W - if the 9mm frame really agrees with you well, the frames are typically the same between 40S&W and 9mm.

Shiboleth
01-01-2011, 4:09 AM
This is one of the reasons why my first handgun was a CZ-97B... can't get mags over 10rds so why not get a 45 that fits 10 instead of a 9mm?

I would suggest maybe looking at 40S&W - if the 9mm frame really agrees with you well, the frames are typically the same between 40S&W and 9mm.


Yeah it would be pretty easy to get a G23, it's the exact size of the G19 so I won't need a holster change.

flatovercrest
01-01-2011, 5:09 AM
With today's expansion and performance of 9mm defensive ammo, it's everything you need for personal and home defense. 30 years ago maybe..

B Strong
01-01-2011, 5:13 AM
I have a G19 that I carry with my CCW, and I absolutely love it. I bought it for self defense, and the reason I went with a 9mm over a larger caliber was mainly the cost issue since I planned on putting a large amount of rounds through it to train. I've since purchased an advantage arms 22 conversion for it, and another 22 pistol, so I've mainly been shooting 22 since it's so cheap. So I've been thinking that since the reason I chose 9mm isn't much of an issue anymore, that maybe I should step it up to a 40 or 45.

My question is, is it worth it? I know that the 9mm can be a very effective defensive round, but it seems like a big reason LEO choose it is because of the capacity. Since I can't legally acquire standard capacity magazines, is there anything to recommend the 9mm over something larger? I appreciate any thoughts.

The question is, are you as accurate with a .40 or .45 (let's say a G23 or G30) as you are with the G19?

A confident competent shooter with a 9 beats an inaccurate shooter with a larger caliber every time.

Magazine capacity really isn't an issue, unless you get into that once in a lifetime Hollywood Bank Job shootout or something similar, and you shouldn't be getting involved with a deal like that as a CCW licensee anyway.

Go to the range and rent a 23 and 30 and see how you do before getting exited over the new shooter.

Oceanbob
01-01-2011, 5:28 AM
The question is, are you as accurate with a .40 or .45 (let's say a G23 or G30) as you are with the G19?

A confident competent shooter with a 9 beats an inaccurate shooter with a larger caliber every time.

Magazine capacity really isn't an issue, unless you get into that once in a lifetime Hollywood Bank Job shootout or something similar, and you shouldn't be getting involved with a deal like that as a CCW licensee anyway.

Go to the range and rent a 23 and 30 and see how you do before getting exited over the new shooter.

Carry what you can shoot.

Between .40 and .45....?..Hmmmm..the Glock 23 is sweet (or the 27)..

The .45 (for me) actually shoots better; less snap. A fat bullet moving slow ;)

The Glock 30 is a very accurate and easy to shoot weapon. (the Short Frame model is popular; mine is a normal frame)

Once you get the .45 bug, it never stops. Soon you will add a few 1911's; and start reloading to feed them...hahaha..

Rent the G30 at the range. See if it fits. It's the exact same size as a G29 BTW..

Tzvia
01-01-2011, 5:39 AM
Yes, good idea to rent what you are thinking of replacing it with to see how you do; control-ability and accuracy. Like Oceanbob said 'Carry what you can shoot'.

I've been in a similar quandary, but with my HD pistol. I was lucky enough to buy a Browning HP before the ban, and bought extra 13, 15, 20 and 30 round extended mags for it before the ban, and kept most of them in their packaging just in case I needed them. My worry was what if I used it? Would I get it back? Would I get the mags back? It may sound callous to think of this if I had to (G*d forgive) actually use it and the Police take it. But thinking of this now, before a horrible thing might happen, led me to the conclusion that 10 rounds of 40 or 45 might be better, from one of those polymer things instead of my beloved HP (or my Colt 1911s for that matter). I ended up with a M&P 45 that I find very controllable and the recoil seems to be less than the HP?? Whatever, it sits in my lockbox next to the bed now, with my .357, and the HP is for riots with the 30 round mags, and range plinking.

Besides, it's a good excuse to buy another handgun ;).

cineski
01-01-2011, 6:21 AM
Shoot .22 for fun. Shoot the caliber you carry for defensive practice. Shooting .22 is no substitute for a larger caliber despite being fun and cheap.

jdg30
01-01-2011, 7:50 AM
When I first started shooting I started with a Glock 27. I liked the amount of power the cartridge had and also liked that it seemed to have characteristics between 9mm and .45. I never considered 9mm because it seemed less powerful so why bother, and never considered .45acp because of increased cost to shoot. I had this mindset for years until I finally tried a .45 and it quickly became my favorite cartridge to shoot. I shoot all three calibers now but .45 is definitely my favorite. You can feel that it packs a punch but the recoil is quite smooth and not too much to handle.

If I were you I would also try out .38 special and .357 magnum in a revolver. They are very accurate and fun to shoot. Both .45 and .38/.357 are great cartridges to reload for to reduce cost.

B Strong
01-01-2011, 8:17 AM
Carry what you can shoot.

Between .40 and .45....?..Hmmmm..the Glock 23 is sweet (or the 27)..

The .45 (for me) actually shoots better; less snap. A fat bullet moving slow ;)

The Glock 30 is a very accurate and easy to shoot weapon. (the Short Frame model is popular; mine is a normal frame)

Once you get the .45 bug, it never stops. Soon you will add a few 1911's; and start reloading to feed them...hahaha..

Rent the G30 at the range. See if it fits. It's the exact same size as a G29 BTW..

My 30 has a BarSto and Trijicons, and it runs 100%

it's a great carry gun, but if somebody is more confident with a lesser caliber, that's what they should use.

Mael
01-01-2011, 8:32 AM
The other thing to keep in mind is your ammo supply. Do you already have a bunch of 9mm stockpiled? Do you have other guns in 9mm? If the answer to both these questions is yes, I would probably stick with the 9mm unless you already have a stockpile of the the other caliber. With most mail order sales ending for Californians within the next two weeks, you have very little time to stock up on a new caliber of ammo.

Legasat
01-01-2011, 8:49 AM
I personally shoot .45 the best, and prefer .45.

But with that said, if Self Defense is your only goal, 9mm is more than up to that job.

Moto4Fun
01-01-2011, 9:26 AM
I don't think .22 is an effective replacement for practicing with your self defense ammo. So your logic of changing your carry caliber because you have new practice caliber doesn't make a lot of sense. However if the only reason you chose to shoot nine is because of price and now you prefer to shoot .22, then choose whatever you want for self defense because .22 won't fill that role.

Shenaniguns
01-01-2011, 9:49 AM
With today's expansion and performance of 9mm defensive ammo, it's everything you need for personal and home defense. 30 years ago maybe..


Exactly, it's funny how people still think a .45 will knock someone down while a 9mm would be shaken off lol. The difference between modern service calibers with good ammo is minimal, so shoot what caliber you can afford to shoot/train with and feel confident with.

dandechino
01-01-2011, 9:51 AM
I would imagine the 9mm or a .380 would be much more comfortable to carry than a .45. 9mm is a very effective self-defense round.

Johansenk
01-01-2011, 10:04 AM
I'll be that guy. Get a .40 and a .357 barrel for it :D

bsg
01-01-2011, 10:05 AM
I have a G19 that I carry with my CCW, and I absolutely love it.

My question is, is it worth it? I know that the 9mm can be a very effective defensive round,


it sounds like you've got a good thing going here. do your homework, but don't "overthink."

dadoody
01-01-2011, 10:16 AM
This is one of the reasons why my first handgun was a CZ-97B... can't get mags over 10rds so why not get a 45 that fits 10 instead of a 9mm?

I would suggest maybe looking at 40S&W - if the 9mm frame really agrees with you well, the frames are typically the same between 40S&W and 9mm.

Same reason I got my 1911.

BamBam-31
01-01-2011, 10:27 AM
IIRC, a member here used a G30 in a defensive shooting to good effect. Good on him. :thumbsup:

That said, to answer the OP's original question: No. 9mm is more than sufficient if you place your rounds where you should. Besides, didn't you have a bunch of standard caps stored in your garage somewhere? You can keep rebuilding those, ya know. ;)

paul0660
01-01-2011, 10:29 AM
To be absolutely sure, you have to shoot some people.

Vepr62
01-01-2011, 10:53 AM
I am a 9mm guy. I CC P64 in Europe and feel that 9mm Makarov (9mmX18mm, which is in the middle between .380(9x18) and 9mm Luger (9x19)) is more than sufficient for self deffence. I would recomend practicing with the same caliber ammo you are using for deffense, at least a couple magazines every time you shoot. Yes, .22lr is a good practice round, but to be profficient with your weapon you need to practice with full bore ammo. MY OPINION ONLY.

Vasiliy

oddjob
01-01-2011, 11:48 AM
Shoot a G23 first and see if the recoil impulse is to your liking first. Shoot it like your 9mm. You may not like the recoil or "feel" of a .40. The .40 will have more of a torque than the 9mm. Its just the nature of bigger bullets. I have 1911's in 9mm and .40. There is a small difference. Either caliber is good.

Shiboleth
01-01-2011, 3:11 PM
The other thing to keep in mind is your ammo supply. Do you already have a bunch of 9mm stockpiled? Do you have other guns in 9mm? If the answer to both these questions is yes, I would probably stick with the 9mm unless you already have a stockpile of the the other caliber. With most mail order sales ending for Californians within the next two weeks, you have very little time to stock up on a new caliber of ammo.


I don't really have any significant stockpiles, and iirc isn't AB 962 taking effect February?

Shiboleth
01-01-2011, 3:18 PM
Train with your caliber of choice right now it's 9mm. buy yourself a Ruger 22 or something else to play with for fun in 22lr.

Shooting your 22 conversion on your 19 is just playing around... It's may actually be a negative to your use of the Glock 19 as a Def. Platform. Your muscle memory and adaptation to your Glock will be with the little pop of the 22. vs the more recoil of the 9mm...

Train with your gun using 9mm only.... This is after all your Self Def. Pistol right?

I'm not trying to be harsh but direct.... then again... this is jut my Opinion.... yours may vary...
Be safe and your question is a good one!

I agree with you for the most part, but i think it depends on what aspect of shooting you're training. A 22 certainly isn't going to give me a real-life representation of a self defense scenario. It should be more than sufficient though for practicing things like accuracy, sight picture, firing after holster presentation, and all the basics like stance, grip, and target acquisition. It won't do much to practice follow up shots certainly as the reduced recoil would throw me off. I always make sure that after a day at the range throwing a bunch of 22 around, i finish up my practice with 50-100 9mm.

Shiboleth
01-01-2011, 3:24 PM
I appreciate all the comments. To those saying to carry what I'm best at, that would certainly be the G19 right now since i haven't shot much in the large bores. When i do get a larger bore though, i'll still be keeping and carrying my g19 (i don't think i'll ever get rid of it) until i'm proficient enough with the new gun to match my performance with the g19.

sevensix2x51
01-01-2011, 3:32 PM
im actually purging my larger bored handguns in favor of the 9mm, due to the fact that it is easier to shoot quickly and on target, as well as cheaper to practice with. the rimfire wont let you really practice shooting fast, there is no recoil to compensate for... im still keeping one 1911, but the cz gets all the glory these days. if you like the g19, and want another handgun, just get another g19. you can never have too many of a gun that you like, and can shoot well. :)

den888
01-01-2011, 3:37 PM
With the right ammo (non FMJ), the 9mm is pretty effective.

Southbay
01-01-2011, 4:01 PM
Between 9mm, 40SW and 45ACP shot placement is far more important than caliber, go with the 1 you shoot the best.

Also make sure you train with the ammo you intend to use for self defense.

Average Joe American
01-01-2011, 4:03 PM
I always wondered about the whole 9mm issue in California. I wondered since you guys are restricted to only 10 rounds...would that influence folks into carrying 10 bigger rounds since 15+ capacity is no longer an argument.

ZirconJohn
01-01-2011, 4:11 PM
Having read only the OP... here'smytwocents...

.9mm... hmph... waste of good gun powder :shrug:

When/if; and God forbid, SHTF and you must pull and fire...

...make each hit COUNT... send something with weight .45ACP :yes:

And that's all I have to say.

Shenaniguns
01-01-2011, 4:14 PM
I always wondered about the whole 9mm issue in California. I wondered since you guys are restricted to only 10 rounds...would that influence folks into carrying 10 bigger rounds since 15+ capacity is no longer an argument.


Read the thread, not for many of us.

Shenaniguns
01-01-2011, 4:15 PM
Having read only the OP... here'smytwocents...

.9mm... hmph... waste of good gun powder :shrug:

When/if; and God forbid, SHTF and you must pull and fire...

...make each hit COUNT... send something with weight .45ACP :yes:

And that's all I have to say.



Yeah that's pretty silly :rolleyes:

shooterdude
01-01-2011, 4:16 PM
Read this:

http://www.hipowersandhandguns.com/9mm%20vs%2045.htm

Then be intellectually honest with yourself about this whole ".45 is the best handgun round" discussion.

Mael
01-01-2011, 6:24 PM
I don't really have any significant stockpiles, and iirc isn't AB 962 taking effect February?

That's correct, but many mail order places are cutting off sales to California one to two weeks before the law goes into effect to accommodate shipping delays. Check out Cabela's notification to California customers (http://www.cabelas.com/custserv/custserv_popup.jsp?pageName=californiapop).

l8apex
01-01-2011, 6:31 PM
I'm one that consildated to 9mm because no matter how fast and accurate I am with a 45 I'm still faster and more accurate with a 9mm. With ammo advancements nearly leveling the field, it's a simple choice. I would suggest that you take some training classes that push your current skill level and you will find that 9mm will be more than sufficient. After more than a decade of pistol shooting, there is still a good amount to learn and master for me. YMMV.

Shenaniguns
01-01-2011, 6:52 PM
I'm one that consildated to 9mm because no matter how fast and accurate I am with a 45 I'm still faster and more accurate with a 9mm. With ammo advancements nearly leveling the field, it's a simple choice. I would suggest that you take some training classes that push your current skill level and you will find that 9mm will be more than sufficient. After more than a decade of pistol shooting, there is still a good amount to learn and master for me. YMMV.


Well said!

Hopalong
01-01-2011, 6:56 PM
I get a kick out of the "when the SHTF" stuff, you better be ready with your 45.

How many people here have had "the SHTF" or know anybody that has?

Granted, it could happen but the odds are slim.

I'll take my chances with my nines, and proper ammo.

In the meantime, it's very likely that I'll go to the range at least once a week, shoot thousands of rounds of ammo, get very proficient , at a fraction of the cost.

Plus, I don't like the explosion or recoil of 40 or 45.

I don't mind admitting this, as I have no problem with the size of my penis.

Shenaniguns
01-01-2011, 6:59 PM
I get a kick out of the "when the SHTF" stuff, you better be ready with your 45.

How many people here have had "the SHTF" or know anybody that has?

Granted, it could happen but the odds are slim.

I'll take my chances with my nines, and proper ammo.

In the meantime, it's very likely that I'll go to the range at least once a week, shoot thousands of rounds of ammo, get very proficient , at a fraction of the cost.

Plus, I don't like the explosion or recoil of 40 or 45.

I don't mind admitting this, as I have no problem with the size of my penis.


Katrina, L.A. Riots for example are not hard to imagine...

virulosity
01-01-2011, 7:00 PM
The best defensive handgun is the one you are the best shooter with. Many people have been killed by the .22LR beleive it or not. In fact, the founder of second chance body armor took on 3 attackers with a .22 revolver before he decided to start the company.

As far as 9mm goes, it is standard issue for the US armed forces, so it can't be as "useless" as some people claim.

Steve1968LS2
01-01-2011, 7:12 PM
I would imagine the 9mm or a .380 would be much more comfortable to carry than a .45. 9mm is a very effective self-defense round.

Not if it's a Glock 36... that pistol would be very comfy to carry.

pyromensch
01-01-2011, 7:14 PM
the 9mm, hasn't been used around the world, as an offensive, and defensive round, for a hundred years, because it is cheap, (then again, maybe it has). but, even with ten rounds, it is better than ten fingers

ZirconJohn
01-01-2011, 7:16 PM
I get a kick out of the "when the SHTF" stuff, you better be ready with your 45.

How many people here have had "the SHTF" or know anybody that has?

Granted, it could happen but the odds are slim.

I'll take my chances with my nines, and proper ammo.

In the meantime, it's very likely that I'll go to the range at least once a week, shoot thousands of rounds of ammo, get very proficient , at a fraction of the cost.

Plus, I don't like the explosion or recoil of 40 or 45.

I don't mind admitting this, as I have no problem with the size of my penis.

:rofl2: :smilielol5:

Heiko
01-01-2011, 7:27 PM
This might seem silly but why just one gun for CCW? I understand that it's important to be proficient with your carry gun and having more than one requires that much more training but it seems to me that you don't have to abandon the G19 but rather add a gun to the mix.

I carry 9mm, .40, and .45. Each gun has it's place and purpose. I love my Kahr P9 and have no problems relying on it and I love my .45 too. I tend to carry my 9mm the most because it's the most concealable but my .45 gets lots of carry lately, partly because the colder weather allows for clothing that helps conceal my 1911 better. It's nice to have a .45 but I like the 1911 and shoot it well. I am definitely not a 9mm hater. I like to have options.

I agree with what most others have stated about the 9mm being a good choice. I have recently swapped out my HD gun from a .40 USP to a Glock 19 because I believe the 9mm can be a good round, it's better indoors in terms of flash and bang, my wife is more comfortable with shooting it if she has to, and as a small bonus I get two more rounds than my USP.

Lone_Gunman
01-01-2011, 8:17 PM
I recently went from an XD45 Compact to a G26 for my EDC. Why? The G26 is smaller, lighter, easier to carry and conceal. I'm faster and more accurate with it as well. I'm confident enough in modern 9mm loadings to trust them to defend my self and my family.

bsg
01-01-2011, 8:19 PM
I get a kick out of the "when the SHTF" stuff, you better be ready with your 45.

How many people here have had "the SHTF" or know anybody that has?

Granted, it could happen but the odds are slim.

I'll take my chances with my nines, and proper ammo.

In the meantime, it's very likely that I'll go to the range at least once a week, shoot thousands of rounds of ammo, get very proficient , at a fraction of the cost.

Plus, I don't like the explosion or recoil of 40 or 45.

I don't mind admitting this, as I have no problem with the size of my penis.


you're a funny guy! :rofl2:

ElvenSoul
01-01-2011, 8:23 PM
9mm is excellent for CCW and used by Police and Military in Every Nation...or just about.

oddjob
01-01-2011, 8:50 PM
A friend of mine shot and killed a woman with two 147 grn subsonics from a Beretta 92. He placed them directly in the center of her chest. She buckled and fell like she was hit by a Star Trek phaser. He has no problems with a 9mm. The same agency later went to the .40 and the troopers are so-so with it (as a result of field shootings).

I spoke to a range master who was involved in 4 or 5 shootings. He likes the new 9mm loadings. I fired some W-W 127 grn +P+ and its a hot round. Works well in the gel and the clothing we fired through. Windshields too.

Its a tough call. Personally I have no problems with a 9mm. The shooting platform (1911, Glock, HK & etc) is more important to me.

bsg
01-01-2011, 9:52 PM
The shooting platform (1911, Glock, HK & etc) is more important to me.


+1.

forgiven
01-01-2011, 11:29 PM
Desert Eagle .50 ought do the trick.:D

Vanilla Gorilla
01-01-2011, 11:51 PM
i would stick with the 9 for 2 reasons 1 quicker fallow-up shots and 2 more rounds in the mag for the same size weight those are the 2 most important things i can think of for self defense

locosway
01-02-2011, 2:47 AM
There's no reason to move away from a 9mm unless you're concerned about shooting through barriers. The difference between a 9mm, .40, or .45 is really negligible, as shot placement is key. The Glock 19 is an excellent firearm and is IMO one of the most fun to shoot.

If being frugal is no longer a big concern of yours, why not just pickup a second handgun?

locosway
01-02-2011, 2:50 AM
Not if it's a Glock 36... that pistol would be very comfy to carry.

And this would be the only reason I'd move away from a 9mm as a CC weapon. The G36 is just so awesome, although the reviews on it's "snappiness" for some people could be an issue.

speeder
01-02-2011, 3:55 AM
Wow, lots of 9mm fans here. Is the economy that bad? JUST KIDDING!

The two essential components to winning a gun fight is a good balance of speed and accuracy. But, if the same can be accomplished with a "slightly" more effective cartridge why not use it? Yes, there are plenty of reasons, "other than bullet performance," as to why the military is using the 9mm round as the "standard issue." There also many reasons why most specialized units LEO & Military chose to use a large caliber round when authorized.

The 9mm/.40/.45 cal. debate will go on forever, LOL. To each his/her own as long as one can balance those two essential components effectively and with confidence in the tool that they carry while in harms way.

locosway
01-02-2011, 4:03 AM
Wow, lots of 9mm fans here. Is the economy that bad? JUST KIDDING!

The two essential components to winning a gun fight is a good balance of speed and accuracy. But, if the same can be accomplished with a "slightly" more effective cartridge why not use it? Yes, there are plenty of reasons, "other than bullet performance," as to why the military is using the 9mm round as the "standard issue." There also many reasons why most specialized units LEO & Military chose to use a large caliber round when authorized.

The 9mm/.40/.45 cal. debate will go on forever, LOL. To each his/her own as long as one can balance those two essential components effectively and with confidence in the tool that they carry while in harms way.

I'm still waiting for someone to show me that a 9mm is better than a .40, .45, or any other popular auto loader handgun round. There are two factors for rounds, weight and speed. You increase the weight, you decrease the speed. This seems to be an unwritten law when it comes to ammo, and partly why I made a web tool to show the relatively little difference between rounds.

People who carry a .45 say it's the best man stopper... Well why not carry a small .357 that actually does stop people in their tracks?

I've read tons of comparisons from LEA's and the FBI regarding field shootings and tests. All of them came down to penetration. None of the rounds mentioned so far are capable of adequately penetrating to be a proven "man stopper" as so many claim. So what's the most important is shot placement, and having more rounds could give you more opportunities to place those shots. Now, in CA this is a moot point for a lot of people because of the 10 round limit, however there's nothing wrong with a 9mm.

Shenaniguns
01-02-2011, 4:20 AM
Who said 9mm is better than either? Read the thread and you'll see that many of us believe the difference is minor between 9/.40/.45 and nobody has proved otherwise. If you want no B.S. testing then look here:

http://www.winchester.com/SiteCollectionDocuments/flash-SWFs/law_bullit.swf


This "Best Man Stopper" nonsense from "people who carry it" means nothing to me as practically all service handgun rounds are not the most effective at stopping humans and are all weak in the grand scheme of things. I'll give up the 1" or so of penetration in lab testing the .45 might have here or there in a platform I may not shoot as well for a 9mm handgun I shoot much better under stress and during recovery shots. I would shoot to stop the threat which may involve 1, 5 or even 10 rounds regardless of caliber.

locosway
01-02-2011, 4:23 AM
Who said 9mm is better than either? Read the thread and you'll see that many of us believe the difference is minor between 9/.40/.45 and nobody has proved otherwise. If you want no B.S. testing then look here:

http://www.winchester.com/SiteCollectionDocuments/flash-SWFs/law_bullit.swf


This "Best Man Stopper" nonsense from "people who carry it" means nothing to me as practically all service handgun rounds are not the most effective at stopping humans and are all weak in the grand scheme of things. I'll give up the 1" or so of penetration in lab testing the .45 might have here or there in a platform I may not shoot as well for a 9mm handgun I shoot much better under stress and during recovery shots. I would shoot to stop the threat which may involve 1, 5 or even 10 rounds regardless of caliber.

That's what I was saying. All popular auto loading handgun rounds are basically the same. It's the same reason why I have no problem buying a 9mm, although I tend to keep my 10mm for my "go to gun".

shooterdude
01-02-2011, 6:38 AM
I'm still waiting for someone to show me that a 9mm is better than a .40, .45, or any other popular auto loader handgun round. There are two factors for rounds, weight and speed. You increase the weight, you decrease the speed. This seems to be an unwritten law when it comes to ammo, and partly why I made a web tool to show the relatively little difference between rounds.

People who carry a .45 say it's the best man stopper... Well why not carry a small .357 that actually does stop people in their tracks?

I've read tons of comparisons from LEA's and the FBI regarding field shootings and tests. All of them came down to penetration. None of the rounds mentioned so far are capable of adequately penetrating to be a proven "man stopper" as so many claim. So what's the most important is shot placement, and having more rounds could give you more opportunities to place those shots. Now, in CA this is a moot point for a lot of people because of the 10 round limit, however there's nothing wrong with a 9mm.

Nobody is saying that either round is better, just equivalent.

Mickey D
01-02-2011, 8:13 AM
If you don't feel the 9mm is potent enough, stand in front of it. :eek:

Kidding aside, I'm a fan of larger calibers, such as .44 spl, .45 acp, .45 Colt with an occational .38 spl carry in the summer.

frankiejoe577
01-02-2011, 8:16 AM
I have a Glock 19, I just upgraded to a Glock 23 .40 now I own both, the G23 has a lot more snap in the shot. I would feel better using the 9mm in most cases and I'm sure I will train with the 9mm and shoot it more often then the .40 As long as you can hit when you shoot at it wont make too much of a difference. just make sure if you get a .40 you dont use your 9mm mag with 9mm ammo in your .40 cal gun lol

Shenaniguns
01-02-2011, 8:26 AM
I have a Glock 19, I just upgraded to a Glock 23 .40 now I own both, the G23 has a lot more snap in the shot. I would feel better using the 9mm in most cases and I'm sure I will train with the 9mm and shoot it more often then the .40 As long as you can hit when you shoot at it wont make too much of a difference. just make sure if you get a .40 you dont use your 9mm mag with 9mm ammo in your .40 cal gun lol



That's a downgrade IMO

Longbow
01-02-2011, 8:35 AM
Oh, fer cripessakes,buy a new handgun in .45, and enjoy the heck out of it. Makes you happy, bolsters the economy, and is your Right.

Might even be useful someday, but until that unlikely day, shoot them both, a lot. Good on you for the .22 conversion - all trigger time is useful, even if only as enjoyment.


Cheers,
Longbow

.40Cal
01-02-2011, 11:29 AM
The best defensive handgun is the one you are the best shooter with. Many people have been killed by the .22LR beleive it or not. In fact, the founder of second chance body armor took on 3 attackers with a .22 revolver before he decided to start the company.

As far as 9mm goes, it is standard issue for the US armed forces, so it can't be as "useless" as some people claim.

Now I know the LEO departments, FBI, and some border patrol have all switched to .40cal. This round was invented to be the best (middle of 9mm and 45). Not sure if the military is still using the 9mm, but maybe they are... cuz it's cheaper.

Bottom line, I think a high quality 9mm would be a VERY deadly round. YOU DON'T wanna get shot by it.

If the question is about the Best round in middle weight category (not including the 44Mag .41Mag and such...), then I think 357 would be it! It's an overall top notch round, but then again.... nothing is really THE BEST. Now, 44 Mag would make a tunnel out of someone...lol, no matter where it's placed. It's like being shot by a Rifle. But in all honesty, I think a 9mm will solve the purpose it's intended for.

All IMHO.. though..

Shenaniguns
01-02-2011, 11:38 AM
Now I know the LEO departments, FBI, and some border patrol have all switched to .40cal. This round was invented to be the best (middle of 9mm and 45). Not sure if the military is still using the 9mm, but maybe they are... cuz it's cheaper.

Bottom line, I think a high quality 9mm would be a VERY deadly round. YOU DON'T wanna get shot by it.

If the question is about the Best round in middle weight category (not including the 44Mag .41Mag and such...), then I think 357 would be it! It's an overall top notch round, but then again.... nothing is really THE BEST. Now, 44 Mag would make a tunnel out of someone...lol, no matter where it's placed. It's like being shot by a Rifle. But in all honesty, I think a 9mm will solve the purpose it's intended for.

All IMHO.. though..


Do some research on why the .40 was invented, it's actually a 10mm short for those who had problems controlling full power 10mm. So if you want to rag on people who shoot 9mm over .40, then the .45 and 10mm crowd should be ragging on you.

451040
01-02-2011, 2:07 PM
If you don't already own a 40 S&W or 45 ACP handgun and want one, buy one. If your only consideration is trying to up the "stopping power", stick with what you have and practice more.

Do some research on why the .40 was invented, it's actually a 10mm short for those who had problems controlling full power 10mm.

Reduced power 10 mm loadings were already available to handle to recoil issue. The 40 S&W was developed for ergonomic reasons. It fits in a medium frame automatic so that female agents and male agents with smaller hands can handle it comfortably.

Shenaniguns
01-02-2011, 2:21 PM
If you don't already own a 40 S&W or 45 ACP handgun and want one, buy one. If your only consideration is trying to up the "stopping power", stick with what you have and practice more.



Reduced power 10 mm loadings were already available to handle to recoil issue. The 40 S&W was developed for ergonomic reasons. It fits in a medium frame automatic so that female agents and male agents with smaller hands can handle it comfortably.


Make it a combo of both :chris:

ZombieTactics
01-02-2011, 2:48 PM
I recently interviewed a former President of the California State Coroners Association, an part of the conversation involved terminal ballistics. This gentleman has several decades of experience under his belt of actually observing - scientifically - the results of handgun wounds.

His position is that - based upon his experience and conversations with other coroners and MEs - there is no discernible difference between 9mm, .40S&W and .45ACP wound profiles when considering roughly analogous round types (FMJ vs. FMJ, JHP vs. JHP, etc.) He went so far as to say something to the effect of "you cannot possibly know unless you recover the actual round". We had some additional conversation regarding the reasons why this is so, but that gets too deep into biology and other factors for this thread.

The training director for the same department was of the opinion that .45ACP was "the stopper", but could provide no actual data concerning this opinion beyond "everyone in the field knows it" ... which was completely at odds with what his own Coroner had stated.

When I offered this opinion to the Coroner, his attitude was somewhat dismissive. His reply was to ask the training director how many shootings he had observed, and had some things to say about the unreliability of testimony and memory after combat stress.

My own personal study leads me to believe that there is no reliable reason to believe that there is a significant difference in most cases. It seems more prudent to simply shoot whatever gun/caliber/round you shoot best, and leave it at that.

virulosity
01-02-2011, 2:58 PM
Now I know the LEO departments, FBI, and some border patrol have all switched to .40cal. This round was invented to be the best (middle of 9mm and 45). Not sure if the military is still using the 9mm, but maybe they are... cuz it's cheaper.

One of the big reasons (I think) they still use 9mm is the M9 and its reliability/effectiveness. If cost were a concern, they would be carrying Kel-Tec. The reason 9mm is cheap is because it is the most produced pistol cartridge in the world (other than .22lr). Many law enforcement agencies use Glock but it failed US military requirements with no manual safety. I don't know what the statistics are, but it seems like many cops get shot with their own weapon that carry Glock, this one by a 3 year old...
http://www.everydaynodaysoff.com/2010/07/24/cop-shot-by-3-year-old-son-loses-suit-against-glock/

locosway
01-02-2011, 3:05 PM
Make it a combo of both :chris:

It was, because of the recoil and the size of the grip, the .40 was derived to help this special FBI agents who just couldn't handle a real handgun.

sd_shooter
01-02-2011, 7:47 PM
Ok, here's a video of 9mm vs 45 on the M&P:
6rz6U7TWr8g

So there's a little more recoil on the 45.

Nonetheless, I have a 45 as my home defense gun, the one that's in my bedroom. Why?
- I won't be at a range, worrying about how accurate I am. The longest distance in my house is about 10 yards and the most likely shooting distance is more like 2-3 yards. The difference in recoil is negligible at that distance.
- I want to sling as much lead as possible in a HD shooting
- I'm still limited to 10 rounds in either case

I have an LCR revolver for backup.

For CCW I'd go to 9mm or even .380 ACP only out of convenience.

And the gun makes a huge difference as well. 38 special out of my 6" GP100 feels like a 22, but in my LCR it feels worse than a 357 magnum in the GP100. My 9mm G19 and .40 Steyr feel almost the same.

Ranger20
01-02-2011, 10:50 PM
Like the above video...

Take out your G19 shoot it one handed... Both Weak Hand and Strong Hand. Then two handed.

Now repeat with a rental in 40 and 45acp.. See what you shoot best with.

With good SD ammo all 3 calibers are sufficient for you SD needs.
What matters between those calibers is which can you shoot most accurately and quickest, putting multiple rounds on target. and sometimes this won't mean having a good two handed hold or a perfect site picture if you use your sites at all in a fight.

Train with your caliber of choice right now it's 9mm. buy yourself a Ruger 22 or something else to play with for fun in 22lr.

Shooting your 22 conversion on your 19 is just playing around... It's may actually be a negative to your use of the Glock 19 as a Def. Platform. Your muscle memory and adaptation to your Glock will be with the little pop of the 22. vs the more recoil of the 9mm...

Train with your gun using 9mm only.... This is after all your Self Def. Pistol right?

I'm not trying to be harsh but direct.... then again... this is jut my Opinion.... yours may vary...
Be safe and your question is a good one!

Let us know what you decide would ya?

NSR500
01-02-2011, 11:40 PM
I've carried as light as a .380 and as heavy as .45. It's all about shot placement, so carry what you can shoot best.

Grumpyoldretiredcop
01-03-2011, 12:51 AM
I wouldn't be as concerned with "stopping power" as I would with my ability to make a good shot under stress. If you're doing that with your 19, you will be effective if it ever comes down to needing to use it.

If you're dead set on changing caliber, I join with the other advice given here - rent or borrow a G23, shoot it and make up your mind based on how it works for you.

Like you, I use a .22 conversion unit for the bulk of my practice, and I haven't seen any degradation in my shooting performance from it. Recoil management is only part of the whole shooting picture, and if you get more practice from using your conversion, you will benefit from it.

plankowner
01-03-2011, 7:30 AM
with quality ammo there is nothing wrong with 9mm and I do understand your thoughts about magazine capacity I had the same thoughts but the 9mm is a joy to shoot and cheaper so best of both worlds but I do own a glock 23 and own a couple of .45 but my last purchase was 92fs, you will eventually just find any excuse to purchase something new because it is what we do :D

BamBam-31
01-03-2011, 8:50 AM
From http://www.chuckhawks.com/40SW.htm

The Winchester designed .40 Smith & Wesson was introduced in 1990. The basic idea was to duplicate the ballistics of the 10mm FBI load (the 10mm Lite) in a cartridge that would feed in medium frame autoloaders designed for the popular 9x19 (9mm Luger) cartridge. S&W realized that for police or self-defense purposes the large powder capacity of the 10mm Auto was wasted, and the drawbacks of a large frame pistol (required for the 10mm) could be avoided if the new cartridge could be made small enough to work in 9mm pistols.

sfguyhere
01-03-2011, 10:03 AM
Your 9mm is perfect.

If you had to save the life of you and your family, I don't think the criminal will care if it's a 9mm or .45 . . .

Just practice, and most importantly, try and minimize situations putting you in harms way.

.40Cal
01-03-2011, 10:24 AM
Do some research on why the .40 was invented, it's actually a 10mm short for those who had problems controlling full power 10mm. So if you want to rag on people who shoot 9mm over .40, then the .45 and 10mm crowd should be ragging on you.

Plz do some research... I'm not trying to rag on anyone, but if you wanna rag on me, that's ok :D .40 is a shorter version of the 10mm - I get that. But the reason was not because 10mm had controlling problems - LE wasn't even issuing 10mm, and still don't. This isn't Dirty Harry, where he carried a 44 Mag. Most LEO's carried a 9mm, and Ohio State, FBI and most other started the trend of switching over to 40, which has now become the new standard.

However, I'm not trying to say 9mm is not a good SD gun. Hey, I'm in the market for one Right now! I'm hoping to get a 226 or a CZ75 in 9mm for HD. Given the quality and technology these days, 9mm is "just as good". But if you really wanna get technical - there's a lot of opinions and research...

BamBam-31
01-03-2011, 10:37 AM
IIRC, Miami shootout caused the FBI to look for something w/ a bit more oomph than 9mm, hence their interest in 10mm. But the 10mm had too much recoil, so they went with a lighter load (10mm Lite or 10mm FBI Load). Since the lighter load meant wasted cartridge space, the .40s&w was introduced to get the same load out of smaller framed guns. That's why some people call it the .40 short & weak.

So, yes, the .40s&w did come out of a need for a more controllable caliber than standard 10mm loads.

Shenaniguns
01-03-2011, 11:26 AM
Plz do some research... I'm not trying to rag on anyone, but if you wanna rag on me, that's ok :D .40 is a shorter version of the 10mm - I get that. But the reason was not because 10mm had controlling problems - LE wasn't even issuing 10mm, and still don't. This isn't Dirty Harry, where he carried a 44 Mag. Most LEO's carried a 9mm, and Ohio State, FBI and most other started the trend of switching over to 40, which has now become the new standard.

However, I'm not trying to say 9mm is not a good SD gun. Hey, I'm in the market for one Right now! I'm hoping to get a 226 or a CZ75 in 9mm for HD. Given the quality and technology these days, 9mm is "just as good". But if you really wanna get technical - there's a lot of opinions and research...



I think you missed post 74
http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showpost.php?p=5547082&postcount=74

And if I want to technical, I look to research from DocGKR who is an expert in the field. And this is a good reference on Winchester's LEO ammo:
http://www.winchester.com/SiteCollectionDocuments/flash-SWFs/law_bullit.swf

elSquid
01-03-2011, 11:45 AM
His position is that - based upon his experience and conversations with other coroners and MEs - there is no discernible difference between 9mm, .40S&W and .45ACP wound profiles when considering roughly analogous round types (FMJ vs. FMJ, JHP vs. JHP, etc.) He went so far as to say something to the effect of "you cannot possibly know unless you recover the actual round". We had some additional conversation regarding the reasons why this is so, but that gets too deep into biology and other factors for this thread.

The training director for the same department was of the opinion that .45ACP was "the stopper", but could provide no actual data concerning this opinion beyond "everyone in the field knows it" ... which was completely at odds with what his own Coroner had stated.

When I offered this opinion to the Coroner, his attitude was somewhat dismissive. His reply was to ask the training director how many shootings he had observed, and had some things to say about the unreliability of testimony and memory after combat stress.

And since he had a scientific background, the Coroner emphasized that his personal experience had an extremely strong sampling bias since the observations concern deceased persons.

The rule of thumb that I've seen is - assuming medical care in a reasonable amount of time - is that 10% of handgun shootings result in death. That would imply that the majority of shootings don't result in death and may not come to an ME's attention. There is a lot of valuable data in that 90%.

As well, we are concerned with stopping a threat in a short amount of time, not necessarily killing it, so again the the ME may not be able to answer the question we ultimately are asking.

Logically, assuming similar bullet construction, a 45 is probably more effective than a 9mm on a single shot basis. The permanent crush cavity is larger, and it is reasonable to assume that 'stopping power' is related to cavity volume ( at least up to a certain amount of penetration. ) The question nobody can answer is: how much better is the 45 due to this difference? And is it enough to compensate for the disadvantages of the round?

:shrug:

ME feedback is important, but it's not the whole picture.

My own personal study leads me to believe that there is no reliable reason to believe that there is a significant difference in most cases. It seems more prudent to simply shoot whatever gun/caliber/round you shoot best, and leave it at that.

That seems like a very reasonable approach, at least if we are assuming the common service pistol rounds and modern HP ammunition.

-- Michael

ap3572001
01-03-2011, 11:58 AM
I have a G19 that I carry with my CCW, and I absolutely love it. I bought it for self defense, and the reason I went with a 9mm over a larger caliber was mainly the cost issue since I planned on putting a large amount of rounds through it to train. I've since purchased an advantage arms 22 conversion for it, and another 22 pistol, so I've mainly been shooting 22 since it's so cheap. So I've been thinking that since the reason I chose 9mm isn't much of an issue anymore, that maybe I should step it up to a 40 or 45.

My question is, is it worth it? I know that the 9mm can be a very effective defensive round, but it seems like a big reason LEO choose it is because of the capacity. Since I can't legally acquire standard capacity magazines, is there anything to recommend the 9mm over something larger? I appreciate any thoughts.

Yes and no.

I like my USP in 45 but I can shoot my Beretta's in 9mm MUCH better.

Its whatever feels good to You .

Here in US many people say negative things about 9mm.

When I trianed with a team from Israel, I saw how some of them shoot their Browning High Power in 9mm , with FMJ ammo. I would really hate to engage any one of those guys .....even with my $2500.00 custom 1911's in 45 acp.

Sunday
01-03-2011, 2:05 PM
A miss with a 50 BMG is just like a miss with a 22 LR. how many people have you had to shoot with the 9MM to have a problem with its stopping power? Just buy some proven ammo.

locosway
01-03-2011, 8:19 PM
I own a 10mm and it's my "go to" gun for HD/SD. With that said, I just bought a new 9mm tonight and I'm completely comfortable with using it for any task short of a wilderness trip.