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View Full Version : Can someone explain this quote about 1911 for me?


SVPRApps
01-01-2011, 12:56 AM
"Of course the 1911 is an outdated design. It came from an era when weapons were designed to win fights, not to avoid product liability lawsuits."


Don't quite get it

Heiko
01-01-2011, 1:33 AM
Facetious response to criticism that the 1911 platform is old.

Ducman
01-01-2011, 1:34 AM
this quote was a response regarding a discussion on "what condition do you carry "
"Of course the 1911 is an outdated design. It came from an era when weapons were designed to win fights, not to avoid product liability lawsuits."




According to US Army practice at the time it was designed to be carried in Condition 3, once cocked and chambered for use, the safety was used between firing. Remember the grip safety was there at the request of the Horse Calvary so that a drop pistol would be safe. It was safer for a mounted horse soldier to place the weapon on safe (thumb safety) as he was riding and controlling his horse. The US Army never adopted condition 1 carry unless combat was immeniate. For normal carry it was still condition 3 until replaced by the M9. That said I carried my issued M1911/A1s, condition 1 when in Haiti in 95' and Iraq in 03'-06' and 08'. My son carries his issued M1911A1 in Iraq today also in condition 1 (nice to be SF and not regular Army).

OP its a training issue, carring either condition 1,2 or 3 will still require a movement, condition 1 is the safest and only requires on hand (safer then #2), its going to require practice anyway so might as well do it safely and correct.

CD

iareConfusE
01-01-2011, 1:35 AM
1911's were designed for killing people. They were designed to do a gun's job during wartime. Unlike a lot of modern handguns which are designed to cater to the average citizen who can't be arsed to learn the weapon they're using and which make it incredibly simple for the operator to operate, field strip, maintain, and reassemble. All of this simplicity ensures that the weapon system is foolproof and even the dumbest of dumb can operate it "safely", therefore reducing the risk of product liability.

This is probably the reason why a 1911 is more difficult to field strip, and has a slightly longer manual of arms, as opposed to say... a Glock which is incredibly simple and streamlined.

CALATRAVA
01-01-2011, 1:43 AM
I've seen that video, too. (I assume this is from the youtube response video where a gentlemen talks about the 1911 in hand?)

I think it's a catchy phrase to describe the current design process a gun goes through, where focus is more on having the gun NOT go boom, than it does on HAVING it go boom.

To extrapalate my interpretation of the video's stated opinion...

I think the author/speaker would agree that the 1911 was designed around these features:

:-fire a large-ish bore caliber
-lend itself to firing single-handed from horse-back which includes the action of reloading while mounted.
-have a consistant trigger pull every time the gun is fired
-be able to fire after being dropped on the field of battle or in the muddy trench someone might be fighting on/in.
-etc...

And conversely he assumes that most "modern guns" you have to choose from, focus more on these things:

-gun will not fire when dropped onto concrete or other hard surface
-gun will not fire while decocking
-gun is not able to be fired if magazine is removed
-gun is not able to be fired if locked internally

etc..

just my take.

Happy new year, sir. :)


Edit: haha...y'all posted as I was typing. nice! :D

johnthomas
01-01-2011, 2:08 AM
Looks to me like the quote was saying the 1911 is an unsafe weapon to carry in our modern world. He is eluding to product liability laws when the gun came to be, and now. Also looks to me like a quote he heard somewhere and thought the quote would make him seem intelligent some how. I would love to hear a quote he may have heard to describe the glock, lol.

B Strong
01-01-2011, 6:05 AM
Once upon a time in the distant past, a weapon was just that, a weapon.

After 100 or so years of "civilization" and progressive intervention by well meaning social engineers and bureaucrats, men that go in harms way are instructed and taught to solve interpersonal problems in such a way as to cause the least amount of harm to the bad actor.

The premise of such creatures is if you'd just explain things to them so that they could process and understand the situation, they wouldn't be inclined to do violence - after all, were all jusrt humans and want the same things and don't want to hurt a fellow human blah, blah, blah.

In the old days, somebody that needed killin' could get a 230 grain lead injection without too much grief or civil legal intervention.

Nobody would have even thought to look at the piece used for the job to make sure every little feature on the piece was as it came from the factory and without modification, and the ammo was GI spec, etc.

The statement is not a knock on the 1911 design, it's thinly veiled political commentary.

cineski
01-01-2011, 7:23 AM
If JMB were alive today, his designs would have far surpassed the 1911.

Ranger20
01-01-2011, 8:15 AM
If JMB were alive today, his designs would have far surpassed the 1911.
Sig Sauer: "When you don't want to place too great an emphasis on reliability"


I agree with both your statements Cineski! SIG IMHO isn't what it use to be. sadly.

smle-man
01-01-2011, 9:47 AM
If a loaded and cocked 1911 type pistol without a firing pin safety and not on safe is dropped from about belt height to a hard surface like concrete especially muzzle down there is a chance it will discharge. Add in any type of trigger work and the odds get better for a discharge. This was recogized a long time ago when Colt adopted the Swartz firing pin safety in the 30s but then dropped it pretty quickly probably due to the same complaints heard now: added complexity and effecting the trigger pull adversly. Back then folks didn't sue Colt when they dropped their pistol and it sometimes went off. Now they do. Thus the product liability comment.

trob
01-01-2011, 9:49 AM
"Of course the 1911 is an outdated design. It came from an era when weapons were designed to win fights, not to avoid product liability lawsuits."


Don't quite get it

i see that quote as a positive remark for the 1911. they saying that the new-age guns are more concerned about product liability than winning battles, and they dont make them like they used to. Thats how I took it.

zdragon
01-01-2011, 9:51 AM
After 100 or so years of "civilization" and progressive intervention by well meaning social engineers and bureaucrats, men that go in harms way are instructed and taught to solve interpersonal problems in such a way as to cause the least amount of harm to the bad actor.

The premise of such creatures is if you'd just explain things to them so that they could process and understand the situation, they wouldn't be inclined to do violence - after all, were all jusrt humans and want the same things and don't want to hurt a fellow human blah, blah, blah.






today's soldiers are social workers trained for nation building....yesterday's soldiers are just soldiers(kill your enemy first before they kill you).

Bruce
01-01-2011, 9:58 AM
"Of course the 1911 is an outdated design. It came from an era when weapons were designed to win fights, not to avoid product liability lawsuits."


Don't quite get it

Do you see any key holes on a 1911? No? 'Nuff said.

Ordnance1
01-01-2011, 10:11 AM
Well...there's certainly nothing wrong with a weapon that is designed to be easy to operate and field strip. The Soviets proved that with the AK-47.
That being said, I still love the 1911 design and own four of them myself.

dadoody
01-01-2011, 10:14 AM
Hey, it's the 100th anniversary of the 1911 being taken up my the US military.

Arondos
01-01-2011, 12:11 PM
I just want something simple that goes bang and hits where I point it.

I will make sure it is operated safely via training, familiarity with my weapon, and good safety habits.

And to quote from the movie Patton. "No poor dumb bastard ever won a war by dying for his country. You win wars by making the other poor dumb bastard die for his country."

Sam Hainn
01-01-2011, 12:52 PM
"Of course the 1911 is an outdated design. It came from an era when weapons were designed to win fights, not to avoid product liability lawsuits."


Don't quite get it

Seems to be a snide comment about the safety of "smart-era" or "culpability-era" guns in general, and maybe hinting that modern guns need to be stupid-proofed with multiple manually operated safety levers, magazine disconnects, loaded chamber indicators, locking safeties requiring a key built into the gun, disclaimers imprinted on the side of the slide and frame that guns are dangerous or may cause cancer from "lead-exposure" if used improperly, photos of dead children laser etched on the side of the gun who's parents let them get access to a loaded gun, firing pin and cartridge imprinting or "fingerprinting" mechanisms, a sealed-by-weld compartment containing a drop of the owner's blood donated when filling out your 4473 all to verify DNA at some later date should the gun be used in a crime...

...you know, everything that someone like Arnold Shrivernegger would approve.

cineski
01-06-2011, 7:02 AM
Funny thing is, my SIG statement is actually derived from a quote by SIG themselves after they lost the ATF!

I agree with both your statements Cineski! SIG IMHO isn't what it use to be. sadly.

Ed_in_Sac
01-06-2011, 7:19 AM
i see that quote as a positive remark for the 1911. they saying that the new-age guns are more concerned about product liability than winning battles, and they dont make them like they used to. Thats how I took it.

Same way i read it. Seems to be saying it is designed to win fights, not to satisfy the legal department.

BamBam-31
01-06-2011, 9:32 AM
Yup, quote is using sarcasm to both laud the 1911 as a fighting weapon and poke fun at the myriad of "safety" features we now have in more "modern" guns.

Moto4Fun
01-06-2011, 9:53 PM
I am happy about advancements made to firearms. It is nice to have features to choose from (other than roll marks and checkering), LCI and drop safety are good IMHO.

i<3HK
01-06-2011, 10:12 PM
Yup, quote is using sarcasm to both laud the 1911 as a fighting weapon and poke fun at the myriad of "safety" features we now have in more "modern" guns.

:iagree:

DannyInSoCal
01-06-2011, 10:48 PM
In every industry/hobby there are those that only stick with long proven designs.

There are also those that only prefer innovation of design.

Then there those who like both and straddle the fence.

That's why my Glock30 will be next to my 1911 (8 days left) -

And the ARs are next to the Mosins...