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mmg90
12-31-2010, 2:30 PM
Obsolete

jtmkinsd
12-31-2010, 2:49 PM
I was on a 72 hour hold (5150) this weekend. At the end of the 5150, I was given a notice of certification to receive intensive treatment and that I would have a certification review hearing in 2 days. Well, the day after I was given the notice of certification, the psychiatrist decided to discharge me. So I never appeared before a judge in court or anything. I know cal law prohibits me for 5 years. But I'm worried about the lifetime federal law. As I understand the federal prohibition, the ban applies to those adjudicated as mentally defective by court, board... or those committed involuntary to a mental institution. Does that even apply to me? I'll probably be goin out of state soon. I want to use firearms for hunting. If I am federally prohibited, is the only kind of hunting I can do with a bow?

Strictly a CA thing...but I have a question...in order for the 5 year ban to take effect, 3 things have to happen. 1) You must be taken into custody for 5150. 2) You must be given an "initial assessment". 3) You must be "admitted to a designated facility". While you did go through the first two steps...it doesn't sound to me like the third applies to you. If that's the case, you are not prohibited from owning/possessing firearms.

I may be off on my reading :confused:

N6ATF
12-31-2010, 3:06 PM
Have no fear, the hotline is here: http://calgunsfoundation.org/index.php/hotline

GrizzlyGuy
12-31-2010, 3:08 PM
I'm sorry to have to give you the bad news, but it became a lifetime federal prohibition once you were held over from 5150 and certified for 5250. See here (http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showpost.php?p=4086969&postcount=8). :(

The hearing that they were talking about isn't a court hearing, it is a hearing held inside the hospital. No judge needs to be present. The best thing you can do at that point (but you probably didn't know it at the time) was to ask to stay on voluntarily, thereby avoiding the 5250 certification if they go along with your request.

Damn, I made a post about that not too long ago, I wish you had been a CGN member then. :( :(

CSDGuy
12-31-2010, 3:11 PM
First off, you're done for the next 5 years, as far as California goes. The question remains whether or not you were formally placed on a 5250 or not. There's a process involved to do that and they may not have decided you qualified for the 5250 treatment and discharged you instead. There is a formal process for the 5250 and once that's completed... you're done Federally too.

You may be able to have your firearms rights restored prior to the 5 years, through the courts.

Scott Connors
12-31-2010, 3:17 PM
I'm sorry to have to give you the bad news, but it became a lifetime federal prohibition once you were held over from 5150 and certified for 5250. See here (http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showpost.php?p=4086969&postcount=8). :(

The hearing that they were talking about isn't a court hearing, it is a hearing held inside the hospital. No judge needs to be present. The best thing you can do at that point (but you probably didn't know it at the time) was to ask to stay on voluntarily, thereby avoiding the 5250 certification if they go along with your request.

Damn, I made a post about that not too long ago, I wish you had been a CGN member then. :( :(

Did you appear before the hearing officer? The notice that they gave you that they were applying for the 5250 does not in itself invoke the lifetime federal ban: the doctor may decide to discharge you before the hearing, in which case it is moot. If you did appear before the hearing officer, there will be a decision putting forth what the HO heard in evidence of your mental disability along with why he decided what he decided. Get a copy of your medical record from the hospital where you were treated and then get back with us.

GrizzlyGuy
12-31-2010, 3:23 PM
I drove myself to the hospital, no cops were involved, so does that mean I was taken into custody. And I was in an intensive treatment facility the whole time this was happening. I did sign a paper regarding 5 year state ban. Do they always report these things? Whats the best way to find out if I have a federal ban?

Wait, you drove there voluntarily and you ended up on a 5150? :confused:

You might still be able to get out of this, see here (http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?p=4178596):

As some of you may not know, a more severe detainment under the 5250 statute (hold for up to 14 days after the 5150 ends) involves a "certification hearing" and, if upheld, is considered "adjudicated as a mental defective" under Federal law, thus triggering a lifetime Federal firearms prohibition, even though California law only prohibits ownership for 5 years (just like the 5150 statute). The patient may request a Writ of Habeus Corpus, in which case a judge will review the certification and possibly revoke it. If the patient, for whatever reason, cannot or does not request the writ, or the judge does not revoke it, the certification holds.

Time to contact a lawyer, ASAP.

robcoe
12-31-2010, 3:25 PM
For all possable gun related legal issues threads I leave my advice at quoting this to contact the CGF


To contact us, PM any of the board members such as Kestryll, Ivanimal, Bwiese, Hoffmang, etc. . . OR PM oaklander.

ETA: YOU SHOULD ALSO CALL CGF - 800-556-2109
- THAT NUMBER FORWARDS TO CGF.

Paul S
12-31-2010, 3:27 PM
I'd recommend you seek legal counsel on this issue. You might also consider not discussing the situation further on a publicly viewed forum.

Not that you've done anything wrong mind you...probably just better to be more private about the affair.

Good luck to you sir.

CSDGuy
12-31-2010, 3:28 PM
I drove myself to the hospital, no cops were involved, so does that mean I was taken into custody. And I was in an intensive treatment facility the whole time this was happening. I did sign a paper regarding 5 year state ban. Do they always report these things? Whats the best way to find out if I have a federal ban?
The fact that you were on a 5150 and received treatment, not just the evaluation, means you're done for 5 years. The Certification for a 5250 is a formal process. As I stated above, if that process has been formally completed, you're done Federally too. They may have intended to hold you over for the 5250 and decided to release you instead. That might make things a bit "interesting" for you.

As you know, you were put on the 5150 because you were considered a danger to yourself or a danger to others.

Hopefully, there will be an avenue for you to regain your firearms rights.

Good Luck.

RobG
12-31-2010, 3:29 PM
Wait, you drove there voluntarily and you ended up on a 5150? :confused:



Sounds as though he was placed on the hold after admitting himself. Even under voluntary admittance, he can then be placed on a hold to prevent his leaving the facility.

negolien
12-31-2010, 3:32 PM
No offense but really this is the last thing you should be worried about.

jtmkinsd
12-31-2010, 3:34 PM
For all possable gun related legal issues threads I leave my advice at quoting this to contact the CGF

To contact us, PM any of the board members such as Kestryll, Ivanimal, Bwiese, Hoffmang, etc. . . OR PM oaklander.

ETA: YOU SHOULD ALSO CALL CGF - 800-556-2109
- THAT NUMBER FORWARDS TO CGF.

^^^THIS^^^

You've got some fine points that really should be examined by competent counsel.

Mssr. Eleganté
12-31-2010, 3:34 PM
...If I am federally prohibited, is the only kind of hunting I can do with a bow?

Hopefully you can get this cleared up and find that you are not federally prohibited, but just to let you know, prohibited persons are still allowed to use "antique" firearms under Federal law as long as those firearms don't use modern ammunition. That means you can hunt with muzzle loaders if you are in a State that doesn't have its own restrictions on prohibited persons. Many States do have there own restrictions and they vary a lot. In California prohibited persons can't use muzzle loaders.

anthonyca
12-31-2010, 3:37 PM
I drove myself to the hospital, no cops were involved, so does that mean I was taken into custody. And I was in an intensive treatment facility the whole time this was happening. I did sign a paper regarding 5 year state ban. Do they always report these things? Whats the best way to find out if I have a federal ban?

It seems best to never get the government involved. It also seems best to never go to a therapist and ask for help if you have ANY thoughts of hurting yourself or someone, even if you have NO intention of going through but you just want a way to think more positively.

How many small problems turn into large problems because people don't get help due to what can happen, and how many people really mess up their own or someone else's life by calling the police?

Example, kid tells school councilor his dad kicked him in the rear ( not real hard) for stealing his car. Kid was not hurt or mad, he was telling the councilor how he was a screw up and could have been in more trouble. Counciler fallows the law and calls police. Now the family has way bigger problems.

G17GUY
12-31-2010, 3:44 PM
This situation is unacceptable.

Munk
12-31-2010, 4:13 PM
Call the hotline, talk to the right people. Ask your deity of choice for assistance.

Good luck, and I hope you aren't screwed for this.

It still astounds me that a non-judicial action can remove your firearm rights FOR LIFE.
This situation is unacceptable.
Absolutely

SwissFluCase
12-31-2010, 5:05 PM
It seems best to never get the government involved. It also seems best to never go to a therapist and ask for help if you have ANY thoughts of hurting yourself or someone, even if you have NO intention of going through but you just want a way to think more positively.

How many small problems turn into large problems because people don't get help due to what can happen, and how many people really mess up their own or someone else's life by calling the police?

Example, kid tells school councilor his dad kicked him in the rear ( not real hard) for stealing his car. Kid was not hurt or mad, he was telling the councilor how he was a screw up and could have been in more trouble. Counciler fallows the law and calls police. Now the family has way bigger problems.

^^^^^This.

We have gotten to the point that "The System", including the medical system, cannot be trusted. Stay away!

mmg90, the legal team here is the best you can get. Best of luck.

Regards,


SwissFluCase

Window_Seat
12-31-2010, 5:11 PM
I hate to go on my little soapbox here, but I have to concur with this:

It also seems best to never go to a therapist and ask for help if you have ANY thoughts of hurting yourself or someone, even if you have NO intention of going through but you just want a way to think more positively.

How many small problems turn into large problems because people don't get help due to what can happen, and how many people really mess up their own or someone else's life by calling the police?

This is shameful on the part of our lawmakers to the most extreme degree.

It's not that well known in the MS (mainstream) that if a person seeks help for an emotional issue, they risk a lifetime of being considered a prohibited person, not just for firearms ownership, but also for other liberties in life, such as learning to fly (I believe that a person cannot fly if they are bi-polar, or if they take certain meds). How long is the list of "prohibitions" if a person has a mental condition that could very well be a "medical" condition, and if being "prohibited" from that list of liberties was more well known by "the sheep", would it still be tolerated?

Although I'm not depressed, suicidal, or any of the rest, and don't intend to (yes, it's my disclaimer too), I know not to "seek help" if I ever was since I know what would happen, and I will advise anyone who is seeking help what consequences to expect. It also helps to know to be very careful what one says in public or to a LEO.

Erik.

NiteQwill
12-31-2010, 5:19 PM
Another kick to the gut of those who are mandated reporters.

As one who is, those who are not will never understand the ridiculousness (and heroics) involved with helping those who need help.

I understand the system is a catch 22 but no system is perfect.

My advice... seek help when you need it. To NOT seek help is absolutely stupid. If you feel like hurting yourself, hurt yourself and don't take others with you (a la recent CG member).

anthonyca
12-31-2010, 5:35 PM
Another kick to the gut of those who are mandated reporters.

As one who is, those who are not will never understand the ridiculousness (and heroics) involved with helping those who need help.

I understand the system is a catch 22 but no system is perfect.

My advice... seek help when you need it. To NOT seek help is absolutely stupid. If you feel like hurting yourself, hurt yourself and don't take others with you (a la recent CG member).

I wasn't blaming the mandated reporters, I know they are bound to report. I am also not saying to never seek help. What I was getting at is that many times things are over blown when the government gets involved. More of us are seeing this kind of thing, and more people will now not get help when they should if they have a minor problem.

Look at the whole situation with the military. When I was in, most of the guys said they would never seek help due to it being blown out of proportion.

Window_Seat
12-31-2010, 5:59 PM
Another kick to the gut of those who are mandated reporters.

As one who is, those who are not will never understand the ridiculousness (and heroics) involved with helping those who need help.

I understand the system is a catch 22 but no system is perfect.

My advice... seek help when you need it. To NOT seek help is absolutely stupid. If you feel like hurting yourself, hurt yourself and don't take others with you (a la recent CG member).

Not addressing you specifically, but I should reinforce and emphasize what I stated earlier...

I will NEVER advise anyone NOT to seek help. NEVER will I ever say DON'T GO GET HELP. I will simply tell them what to expect based on MY OBSERVATIONS.

Just like, I will NOT tell someone NOT to get a flu vaccine. I will say that I don't get flu vaccines, but that's just me, and I CERTAINLY WON'T throw my name into a database with "prohibition" at the title because of the "INTENDED CONSEQUENCES".

Erik.

donny douchebag
12-31-2010, 6:20 PM
Mental health advice from someone who won't get a flu shot. Now that's entertainment :)

Window_Seat
12-31-2010, 7:07 PM
Mental health advice from someone who won't get a flu shot. Now that's entertainment :)

http://roundtable.truck.net/images/smilies/icon_smile_tongue.gif

As long as it doesn't make me prohibited (and we might risk giving new legislative ideas).

But I digress, in all seriousness, it's our choice, and it should be.

Erik.

RickD427
12-31-2010, 7:12 PM
Doing a “Personal Firearms Eligibility Check” with the California DOJ is a good first step. It will either confirm your belief that you’re ineligible, or that your 5150/5152 issue is likely resolved.

If the check show you to be ineligible - Then I’d contact a lawyer. Forums like this can be a source of information, but there’s no quality control on what you get. When you need advice, it’s time to bite the bullet and get counsel.

Here the information that I’d like to leave you with:

1) All 5150 hospitalizations do not automatically trigger a firearms disability. There are three types of 5150s. It covers persons who, as a result of mental disorder, are: 1) Danger to self, 2) Danger to others, and 3) Gravely disabled. The California five year disability only applies to the “Danger to self” and “Danger to others” categories. There is no disability for those falling under 5150 - Gravely disabled.

2) The lifetime federal firearms disability applies to those who are “Adjudicated”. Persons committed under section 5250 are required to have a hearing, but that hearing can be routinely held up to four days after the commitment and can be extended beyond that ( see W+I section 5256). If you were released prior to the hearing, I’d question the existence of an “Adjudication.” If that’s the case - then you need to speak to counsel.

1911_sfca
12-31-2010, 8:55 PM
Lawyer up.

MSL209
12-31-2010, 9:35 PM
Besides the lagal issue you are facing right now. I hope whatever the reason you felt the need to take yourself to the hospital to get help, you can get yourself squared away and back on the road to recovery. :)

GrizzlyGuy
01-07-2011, 6:17 AM
Besides firearms, how else could this impact my life? For one, in terms of securing employment. I am entering the electric utility field. This may include city jobs. Can they see 5250's?

See here (http://www.nami.org/Template.cfm?Section=Helpline1&template=/ContentManagement/ContentDisplay.cfm&ContentID=47065), government employers and private employers with more than 15 employees are subject to the Americans with Disabilities Act. It sounds like it covers 5150's and 5250's:

Does the ADA protect people with severe mental illness?

The definition of disability in the ADA includes people with mental illness who meet one of these three definitions: "(1) a physical or mental impairment that substantially limits one or more major life activities of an individual; (2) a record of such an impairment; or (3) being regarded as having such an impairment." A mental impairment is defined by the ADA as "any mental or psychological disorder, such as mental retardation, organic brain syndrome, emotional or mental illness, and specific learning disabilities."

OleCuss
01-07-2011, 7:20 AM
Hmm. . .

Not entirely sure I've got all this right, but it is my understanding that if you were held under 5150 that the prohibition goes into place automatically. But you are also supposed to be given notice that you can have a hearing before a judge to get that prohibition lifted. (And no, I'm not talking about the hearing after 72 hours to see whether you can continue to be held involuntarily).

I had a soldier once who got suicidal and was admitted to a local inpatient psychiatric facility. He was on a 5150. He got things cleared up mentally and even though he'd missed the hearing for restoration of rights he managed to wangle another hearing and got his RKBA back. Went on to serve honorably and earned a Purple Heart in Iraq.

Also, you can do something called a PFEC? to see if you are a prohibited person. If you come back clean on the check then you can go ahead and get your firearms. Here's a link to the DOJ's FAQ site about the Personal Firearms Eligibility Check: http://ag.ca.gov/firearms/pfecfaqs.php

OleCuss
01-07-2011, 7:20 AM
Hmm. . .

Not entirely sure I've got all this right, but it is my understanding that if you were held under 5150 that the prohibition goes into place automatically. But you are also supposed to be given notice that you can have a hearing before a judge to get that prohibition lifted. (And no, I'm not talking about the hearing after 72 hours to see whether you can continue to be held involuntarily).

I had a soldier once who got suicidal and was admitted to a local inpatient psychiatric facility. He was on a 5150. He got things cleared up mentally and even though he'd missed the hearing for restoration of rights he managed to wangle another hearing and got his RKBA back. Went on to serve honorably and earned a Purple Heart in Iraq.

Also, you can do something called a PFEC? to see if you are a prohibited person. If you come back clean on the check then you can go ahead and get your firearms. Here's a link to the DOJ's FAQ site about the Personal Firearms Eligibility Check: http://ag.ca.gov/firearms/pfecfaqs.php

GrizzlyGuy
01-07-2011, 10:33 AM
Good info GrizzlyGuy.

Are 5250s displayed on a criminal background check? I have been told that an FBI record only includes incidents where one is fingerprinted. I was never fingerprinted during the 5250.

It wouldn't show up on the background checks that my company runs on its prospective employees, but I'm not sure about others. Keep in mind that 5150/5250 aren't criminal acts, they are over in the Welfare and Institutions code (http://law.onecle.com/california/welfare/5150.html). You simply became ill (or were suspected of being ill) so you were detained (not arrested) for your own protection and the protection of others. There is nothing to be ashamed of as you didn't choose to become ill. The resulting firearms prohibition might show up but I don't think the details behind it could be released without your consent.

See here (http://www.eeoc.gov/facts/jobapplicant.html#potential), an employer could also ask you about this on their employment application or during the interview process. Lying or failing to disclose would likely hurt your employment chances a lot more than answering honestly. Note that you may also have to disclose this when signing up for employee health insurance, especially if you were diagnosed as having a mental illness. That would be a pre-existing condition from the perspective of the insurance company.

N/A for you, but if someone were to apply for a CCW license (http://calgunsfoundation.org/downloads/documents/DOJ_CCW_App_Fillable.pdf), then it would show up during that background check, as they ask about mental illness in the application and you consent to related information being verified:

I hereby give permission to the agency to which this application is made to conduct a background investigation of me and to contact any person or agency who may add to or aid in this investigation. I further authorize persons, firms, agencies and institutions listed on this application to release or confirm information about me and statements I have made as contained in this application.

Rascal
01-07-2011, 5:57 PM
Look! You're messing with your life here. You really need to pony up and talk to a good lawyer or at least talk to the Calguns Foundation and get some real legal advice. You say you are looking towards your future, that's good, but you also don't want to do something stupid and make matters worse.
Talk to CGF or a good lawyer.

infamous209
01-07-2011, 10:11 PM
First off I hope you get better if you already arent. Second get ahold of Calguns they will help. Just take care of yourself man, thats most important.

JagerTroop
01-07-2011, 11:12 PM
Is it possible to make circumstances worse if I attempt to purchase a firearm. Will my information spread and alert agencies?

Absolutely! It is a crime to attempt to purchase a firearm if you know you are prohibited. It will definitely not make things better.

Hold off, contact an attorney, stop talking about this on an open forum.

Best of luck to you.

OleCuss
01-08-2011, 3:24 AM
OK, I'm not the expert, but why not do a PFEC prior to paying a lot of dollars to a lawyer?

I agree that he needn't give more details on the situation, but I'd note that he doesn't seem to be putting himself in legal jeopardy with what he's said. He had/has a medical problem which has been and is being treated - he did not commit a crime, infraction, whatever so it is highly unlikely that he/she could jeopardize his/her legal health by posting.

FWIW from a non-lawyer.

GrizzlyGuy
01-08-2011, 8:44 AM
A PFEC would be a waste of money. It would only inform me if I am eligible. I already know I am ineligible to purchase for the next 5 years in CA because of the 5150. What I need to know is if CA has reported me to the FBI/NICS database for a 5250. The only way I know how to discover that is trying to purchase in another state. I am doing my best to be very limited in the details I write here. Thank you for your concerns.

A better way to go would be to do one of the following:

1) Call CA DOJ, tell them what you are trying to determine (were you held under a 5250 or not), and ask them how to get that info. They have a record of whatever the hospital reported to them.

2) Call the hospital, tell them what you are trying to determine (were you held under a 5250 or not), and ask them how to get that info. They should have a record of your case.

Attempting to purchase in another state is not a good idea: Can I buy a gun outside California? (http://wiki.calgunsfoundation.org/index.php/FAQ#Can_I_buy_a_gun_outside_California.3F)

Smokeybehr
01-09-2011, 10:10 AM
Get a lawyer and STFU.

'Nuff said.