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View Full Version : Gun shop FUD??? Again???


J.D.Allen
12-31-2010, 12:57 PM
I went to El Cajon Gun Exchange today, and was browsing through some ammo when a woman came in and asked the guy at the front counter about what type of ammo to buy for a Taurus Judge. As soon as she mentioned it was for a Judge he said "I can't sell it to you now because I know you have one of those. It's like yelling fire in a theater." She and I both thought he was joking. Then she asked him what type of ammo she should get, that the gun wasn't hers and the ammo was a gift for someone else and he said "I really don't feel comfortable answering any more questions for you." and basically threw her out of the store.
I was incredulous, and I followed her out to answer her questions and tell her what to get (of course at a different store). Turns out she has some friends who live in Yuma (what a coincidence!) and the wife had bought a Judge for the husband. This lady wanted to get him some ammo for it as a late Christmas gift. She couldn't believe how the guy treated her and made her feel like a criminal. She said "I don't even know how to shoot guns. It's just a present for a friend.

So I have two questions from this incident.

1. Is the Taurus Judge illegal to possess in CA or is it just an off roster issue?

2. Could the guns store get in trouble for selling her .410 shells because she told them it was for a Judge, even though she said it wasn't hers? :confused:

IGOTDIRT4U
12-31-2010, 12:59 PM
I went to El Cajon Gun Exchange today, and was browsing through some ammo when a woman came in and asked the guy at the front counter about what type of ammo to buy for a Taurus Judge. As soon as she mentioned it was for a Judge he said "I can't sell it to you now because I know you have one of those. It's like yelling fire in a theater." She and I both thought he was joking. Then she asked him what type of ammo she should get, that the gun wasn't hers and the ammo was a gift for someone else and he said "I really don't feel comfortable answering any more questions for you." and basically threw her out of the store.
I was incredulous, and I followed her out to answer her questions and tell her what to get (of course at a different store). Turns out she has some friends who live in Yuma (what a coincidence!) and the wife had bought a Judge for the husband. This lady wanted to get him some ammo for it as a late Christmas gift. She couldn't believe how the guy treated her and made her feel like a criminal. She said "I don't even know how to shoot guns. It's just a present for a friend.

So I have two questions from this incident.

1. Is the Taurus Judge illegal to possess in CA or is it just an off roster issue?

2. Could the guns store get in trouble for selling her .410 shells because she told them it was for a Judge, even though she said it wasn't hers? :confused:

The Judge is a CA SBS, so it's illegal to possess/own.

410 is used in other,legal guns, so it's not illegal to sell.

leelaw
12-31-2010, 12:59 PM
The Judge is a short barreled shotgun in CA. It is illegal to possess, transfer, and a bunch of other acts.

IGOTDIRT4U
12-31-2010, 1:01 PM
I'm hearing an echo...

gobler
12-31-2010, 1:01 PM
1. Is the Taurus Judge illegal to possess in CA or is it just an off roster issue?

Yes. Illegal to posses

2. Could the guns store get in trouble for selling her .410 shells because she told them it was for a Judge, even though she said it wasn't hers? :confused:

NO, just stupid fear


Here ya go

Matt C
12-31-2010, 1:05 PM
The Judge is a CA SBS, so it's illegal to possess/own.

In California. Guy made an *** of himself by assuming it was in CA. No reason not to sell .410 ammo to her in any case.

IGOTDIRT4U
12-31-2010, 1:08 PM
In California. Guy made an *** of himself by assuming it was in CA. No reason not to sell .410 ammo to her in any case.

Correct. OP question was whether or not the Judge was illegal in CA. I said it was a CA SBS.

taperxz
12-31-2010, 1:14 PM
This is no different than going into a liquor store for matches or a lighter and telling the guy behind the counter that you need it to fire up a joint! Then them telling you they can't give you matches or sell you a lighter.

jtmkinsd
12-31-2010, 1:19 PM
I've been in that particular shop once...they are a hyper-paranoid bunch. They seem to treat every customer as a DOJ/ATF undercover agent. :TFH:

J.D.Allen
12-31-2010, 1:32 PM
I've been in that particular shop once...they are a hyper-paranoid bunch. They seem to treat every customer as a DOJ/ATF undercover agent. :TFH:

Yeah, I was kind of getting that vibe from them even before this happened. They need to chill out! The guy made a big deal about it. Made her feel like a criminal just for asking. Their stuff is pretty expensive anyway, I won't be going back there.

Blackhawk556
12-31-2010, 4:24 PM
Someone send them this thread :-)

hawk81
12-31-2010, 4:59 PM
The gun store would be fine selling her ammo. These guys running this store sound like PC idiots.




I went to El Cajon Gun Exchange today, and was browsing through some ammo when a woman came in and asked the guy at the front counter about what type of ammo to buy for a Taurus Judge. As soon as she mentioned it was for a Judge he said "I can't sell it to you now because I know you have one of those. It's like yelling fire in a theater." She and I both thought he was joking. Then she asked him what type of ammo she should get, that the gun wasn't hers and the ammo was a gift for someone else and he said "I really don't feel comfortable answering any more questions for you." and basically threw her out of the store.
I was incredulous, and I followed her out to answer her questions and tell her what to get (of course at a different store). Turns out she has some friends who live in Yuma (what a coincidence!) and the wife had bought a Judge for the husband. This lady wanted to get him some ammo for it as a late Christmas gift. She couldn't believe how the guy treated her and made her feel like a criminal. She said "I don't even know how to shoot guns. It's just a present for a friend.

So I have two questions from this incident.

1. Is the Taurus Judge illegal to possess in CA or is it just an off roster issue?

2. Could the guns store get in trouble for selling her .410 shells because she told them it was for a Judge, even though she said it wasn't hers? :confused:

robcoe
12-31-2010, 5:03 PM
1. Is the Taurus Judge illegal to possess in CA or is it just an off roster issue?
Illegal on several fronts, both as an SBS and as an AW(shotgun with a rotateing cylander)

2. Could the guns store get in trouble for selling her .410 shells because she told them it was for a Judge, even though she said it wasn't hers?
No

hawk81
12-31-2010, 5:03 PM
How come other revolvers like .357 and .44 mags are allowed still? They make shot shells for these guns to shoot. Shouldn't they be classified as short barrelled shotguns as well. You can shoot .45 colts out of a taurus judge and .410 shot shells. I don't see any difference.

N6ATF
12-31-2010, 5:06 PM
What about http://www.cheaperthandirt.com/64455-5.html .45 ACP shotshells?

robcoe
12-31-2010, 5:09 PM
How come other revolvers like .357 and .44 mags are allowed still? They make shot shells for these guns to shoot. Shouldn't they be classified as short barrelled shotguns as well. You can shoot .45 colts out of a taurus judge and .410 shot shells. I don't see any difference.

Your looking for logic where none exists. They also make shotshells in 9mm, makeing every 9mm semiauto handgun into a semiauto short barrel shotgun with a detachable magazine. Anti gun lawmakers get most of their information from action movies, not reality. If it looks effective in the latest Stalone movie it's to dangerous for people to own.

CSACANNONEER
12-31-2010, 5:14 PM
If you guys want to go that far, what about all .22lr rimfire revolvers? I have a .22lr shotgun (google "routledge" to see what I mean) which is a smoothbore shotgun designed for .22lr shotshells. I've never seen a .45acp, .38/.357, etc. shotgun. The 9mm garden guns in Europe don't count since, they use Flobert primed cases and not centerfire cases.

stix213
12-31-2010, 5:22 PM
How come other revolvers like .357 and .44 mags are allowed still? They make shot shells for these guns to shoot. Shouldn't they be classified as short barrelled shotguns as well. You can shoot .45 colts out of a taurus judge and .410 shot shells. I don't see any difference.

My guess is because the Judge was specifically designed to be a shotgun from its outset and is advertised as such, with the .410 chambering always mentioned first before the .45 Colt. Even the rifling in the Judge places more importance on shot pattern than bullet stabilization. If they would have just marketed it as a .45 Colt revolver instead of a shotgun, and just let people figure out the .410 capability through word of mouth, it probably would be legal here.

http://www.taurususa.com/product-details.cfm?id=664&category=Revolver&toggle=tr&breadcrumbseries=41

The "Taurus JudgeŽ" is so named because of the number of judges who carry it into the courtroom for their protection. Capable of chambering both .410 2-1/2" shotshell and .45 Colt Ammunition, this amazing combo gun is ideal for short distances - where most altercations occur, or longer distances with the .45 Colt ammo. We have finely tuned the rifling to spread the shot pattern at close quarters or to guide the .45 cal. bullet to the target.

tenpercentfirearms
12-31-2010, 6:25 PM
I will never throw anyone out of my store for such a thing. I would let her know that the Judge is not legal in California. Hopefully she would say, "It is for my friend in Arizona." I would say, "Oh, lucky them! Cash or credit?"

It never made sense to me to kick people out of your shop for merely mentioning possible crimes they had already committed. Now if they come in and say, "I need some ammo for my Judge so I can shoot a judge." Yeah, I would probably not sell them ammo.

Fjold
12-31-2010, 6:54 PM
"I need some ammo for my Judge so I can shoot a judge gun dealer."

Fixed it. :D

PayThePrice
12-31-2010, 7:03 PM
I have been to that store, 2 different people I talked to in that store have screwed them from getting my business as well as that of my friends.

glockwise2000
12-31-2010, 7:21 PM
But I thought that a Taurus Judge has a grooves for rifling, thus making the barrel for handgun that could also fit shotshells? :confused:

Aren't they calibered for .45 long colt + .410 shells?

lorax3
12-31-2010, 7:26 PM
1. Is the Taurus Judge illegal to possess in CA or is it just an off roster issue?
Illegal on several fronts, both as an SBS and as an AW(shotgun with a rotateing cylander)


Incorrect. The Judge is not a "shotgun with a revolving cylinder" because the Judge is not a shotgun. A shotgun requires the firearm to be shoulder fired.

The short-barreled shotgun code has no shoulder fired requirement.

robcoe
12-31-2010, 7:37 PM
Incorrect. The Judge is not a "shotgun with a revolving cylinder" because the Judge is not a shotgun. A shotgun requires the firearm to be shoulder fired.

The short-barreled shotgun code has no shoulder fired requirement.

Your right, I was thinking of the circuit judge for the second part.

Munk
12-31-2010, 7:46 PM
Crap like this is irritating. I aw at a Walmart a month or two ago... ".410 Handgun" Ammo.:eek: That's exactly how the box was labeled. (Out of stock right now, it didn't last 3 days).

These guys at the gun exchange are paranoid to the point of destroying their own business. They should take an activist view of the laws and press them on all sides they can. Riflegear is a good example. Be legal and push everything you can right up the letter of the law. Tell the CADOJ to pound sand if they start pooh pooh-ing what you're doing when you know it's legal.

Mr. Beretta
12-31-2010, 8:02 PM
Just another thread about the worthless staff at El Cajon Exchange.

SoCal Bob
12-31-2010, 8:03 PM
As of yesterday the Walmart in San Marcos had the .410 Handgun ammo too.

Bill Carson
12-31-2010, 8:37 PM
Maybe we should start boycotting gun stores that spread FUD. We could ask to speak to the manager or owner when we hear FUD coming from their employees or contact their corporate offices and explain their mistake and our position. If we do not get a satisfactory answer we bring it here and decide whether to boycott or not.

CitaDeL
12-31-2010, 9:21 PM
Maybe we should start boycotting gun stores that spread FUD. We could ask to speak to the manager or owner when we hear FUD coming from their employees or contact their corporate offices and explain their mistake and our position. If we do not get a satisfactory answer we bring it here and decide whether to boycott or not.

Maybe we should be alerting them that the ignorance that their employees are spreading is causing us to not patronize their establishment... This would bring them into Calguns to see who and what we are and how it would benefit them to not spread false crap.

jtmkinsd
12-31-2010, 9:22 PM
Maybe we should start boycotting gun stores that spread FUD. We could ask to speak to the manager or owner when we hear FUD coming from their employees or contact their corporate offices and explain their mistake and our position. If we do not get a satisfactory answer we bring it here and decide whether to boycott or not.

No sense in being the FUD police...and boycotting a store because you don't like the way they think? Not very productive IMHO

lorax3
12-31-2010, 9:26 PM
and boycotting a store because you don't like the way they think? Not very productive IMHO

Not so much difference of how they think, but when they constantly give out incorrect information that can cause their customers to commit felonies - it becomes an issue.

To note that isn't always the case, it could also be the opposite.

jtmkinsd
12-31-2010, 9:54 PM
Not so much difference of how they think, but when they constantly give out incorrect information that can cause their customers to commit felonies - it becomes an issue.

To note that isn't always the case, it could also be the opposite.

I understand the frustration...but boycotts never work...they're counter-productive in almost every case. We do enough here telling people not to trust what they hear in a gun store...I don't know why this is so surprising to people...walk into any retail DIY home improvement store and ask a technical question...one of two things usually happen, you either get a blank stare or they feed you a line of crap you know isn't true. News flash people, gun stores are NO different. I don't expect my local gun shop to be filled with gun nuts who are all part-time attorneys specializing in gun law. People I've known in the business for years and years have been off 180 degrees from what the current law is...it happens...Instead of grabbing for the pitch forks and torches, lets just calm down and carry on what we're doing...slowly educating when the opportunity presents itself and pointing people to the proper resources to find out for themselves.

Librarian
12-31-2010, 10:30 PM
Instead of grabbing for the pitch forks and torches, lets just calm down and carry on what we're doing...slowly educating when the opportunity presents itself and pointing people to the proper resources to find out for themselves.

And I was so looking forward to the pitchforks and torches ...Zw5pmDgWMaU

SoCal Bob
12-31-2010, 10:32 PM
Instead of boycotts how about a dealer thread where we rate dealers by county? The criteria being their customer service, FUD factor, and inventory?

CSACANNONEER
01-01-2011, 7:54 AM
"I need some ammo for my Judge so I can shoot a judge." Yeah, I would probably not sell them ammo.

I had a LA Suprior Court Judge ask me about getting a Judge for her to CCW. I informed her it was illegal but, if she hadn't asked me, it you might have heard:
"I need some ammo for a Judge so she can shoot her judge."
from one of her friends.

Flying_clutchman
01-01-2011, 10:36 AM
The 3 times I have been in that gun store, they had made comments about me cutting off my beard. I wont go there anymore.

Write Winger
01-01-2011, 10:47 AM
They're just scared for their business. I understand completely. Educate, my friends

N6ATF
01-01-2011, 10:48 AM
His beard was so large that the business could have been shut down for health/fire code violations?

todd2968
01-01-2011, 5:59 PM
They are some extremely annoying individuals there, every time I go there, they give me some kind of crap. I stopped going!!
I go to Parallax tactical, Turners, and Hillcrest Pawn

Bill Carson
01-01-2011, 6:24 PM
I understand the frustration...but boycotts never work...they're counter-productive in almost every case. We do enough here telling people not to trust what they hear in a gun store...I don't know why this is so surprising to people...walk into any retail DIY home improvement store and ask a technical question...one of two things usually happen, you either get a blank stare or they feed you a line of crap you know isn't true. News flash people, gun stores are NO different. I don't expect my local gun shop to be filled with gun nuts who are all part-time attorneys specializing in gun law. People I've known in the business for years and years have been off 180 degrees from what the current law is...it happens...Instead of grabbing for the pitch forks and torches, lets just calm down and carry on what we're doing...slowly educating when the opportunity presents itself and pointing people to the proper resources to find out for themselves.

Big difference between a DIY home improvement store employees blank stare or line of crap and gun stores giving out incorrect info about gun laws. No DIY home improvemnt employee is quoting building code info to you. Most companys will not allow employees to give legal advice because they are not lawyers but somehow gun store employees do all the time. I am not concerned about the FUD that we from Cal-Guns hear in gun stores. I am concerned about all the uniformed gun store customers that are fed this crap and believe it. Jesus did not come to heal the healthy.

Maddog5150
01-01-2011, 6:33 PM
Meh, whenever a customer would come in and ask for ammo for a judge I would politely inform them about the law. I've gotten responses like, "I dont care, they have to find me first!" "Oh yeah? They will have to take it from my dead fingers!" "Its ok, my brothers a cop and he says its fine." Then again I worked in the IE so that should explain something :p A lot of times people would say it was in another state.

Either way, I would just shrug and point them to the .410 rounds. My job didnt pay me enough to try to go to peoples homes and police them.

Hopalong
01-01-2011, 8:21 PM
If people are upset about the way a guy choses to run his business, they should

Don't do business there

Report him to the authorities (in this case, I guess, the DOJ)

Bottom line is, a guy gets to run his business any way he choses, unless it's illegal.

Let's face it, California gun laws are open to interpretation, FUD, and misconception

These can be spread by any number of people and agencies, even lawyers.

There are few "experts", and even they may have different interpretations.

Although people may "hope" that gun store owners are experts, it's unrealistic to "expect" that they are experts.

Doctors are supposed to be experts and people would be foolish to not get a second opinion when it comes to something serious.

So, to me, the notion that people are committing felonies because of something they heard at a gun shop, may be true, but the responsibility falls on them, not the gun shop owner.

Get a second opinion, even third or forth.

Then roll the dice.