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JoeNoBody
12-31-2010, 10:28 AM
This is a true story, the name of the Police Department has been redacted to protect the stupid.

I will start by saying I live in Orange County. I will not mention the city by name for a little while longer.

It was Labor Day weekend. My Police Department got a 911 call about a man with a gun, walking in my neighborhood.

The neighbor that called it in, said the "gunman" may live in the house next to me. The gunman was described as a white guy with a blond, crew cut hair about 250 pounds. My neighbor is 80-years old and very much a senior citizen. He does not have blond hair and does not weigh 250 pounds. The cops asked him if he had any guns. He said yes and invited them in to check them out. They were satisfied he was not the "gunman" and continued the search.

The cops next came to my house. I have a sleep disorder and blood pressure issues (I'm 51 years old) so every night, I take a truck load of medications to allow me to sleep and keep my BP down. I was in bed, sound asleep when the cops knocked on my door. The cops spoke with my my son and wife. They asked if I had any firearms. I have no idea what the answer was, since I was in my bed sleeping. For the record, I am not a 250 pound, blond, crew cut guy. I am 200 pounds and completely bald.

My son woke me up and said "there are a bunch of cops outside and they they want to talk to you about some guy with a gun".

I had been asleep for a short time and the various medications I take, rendered me a very confused person. I walked outside of my home, dressed in only socks and shorts and was blinded by lights from the police cars. I had no idea what the f**k was going on, being very well drugged up. The cops had their guns focused on me (remember I was dressed in socks and shorts) and they were barking out all kinds of commands. I truly had no idea what was going on. I had no idea these people behind the powerful lights were cops. They kept barking out orders and I kept wondering why I had been roused out of bed. Eventually they had a chance and they took it. Two of the cops grabbed me from behind and slammed me, face first into the asphalt. My nose was broken and to this day, I have constant pain in my back and right elbow. My neighbors watched in horror as the cops brutalized me. One neighbor actually called 911 to ask to have some cops come over to stop the cops that were beating me senseless!

I was "cuffed and stuffed" into a police car.

The cops next decided to "clear the house". They told my wife and son to stay outside while they "cleared the house" for more than 2.5 hours! What they cleared from the house was every weapon they could find. My AR-15, two handguns, cross bows, arrows, 3 air guns and believe it or not... a sling shot!

After they finished "clearing my house". They took me to the hospital and dropped me off as a 5150. I spent 24 hours in the ER before being admitted into the psych ward. The next morning I met a doctor who must have agreed I did not belong there, but insisted I spend another night in custody.

I was finally released after 36 hours (more or less) in the psych ward.

I requested a copy of the incident report and did not see my copy for nearly a month. The report stated that the reporting party (the *** that called 911) could not say for sure that I was the one he saw in the street. Basically I was not identified as the subject they were looking for.

I could hardly walk for the first month or so after the incident. My back was in great pain all the time. I had to use a cane to walk.

I kept being told that I was now "5150 Prohibited" and if so much as one single round of ammo was found in my home or car, I could be arrested and jailed.

I started doing my homework and found this wonderful case.

http://le.alcoda.org/publications/point_of_view/files/Sweig.pdf

Everything that happened to Mr. Sweig in 2008, happened to me, without exception.

The Courts ruled that once Mr. Sweig was in custody (cuffed and stuffed) the incident had to stop. Since the cops entered Mr. Sweig's home after arresting him, they were therefore conducting an unlawful search and seizure.

I printed a copy of this ruling with a cover letter and dropped it off at the police station for the Internal Affairs Division to look over.

I heard nothing from the PD for about two months and then I got a letter in the mail. It was a form I was to fill out and send to the CA Dept. of Justice. About 4 weeks later, I received my reply, stating that I was eligible to possess a firearm.

On Dec. 24, all of my illegally seized property was returned. It was admitted that my cross bows, arrows, air guns and my son's sling shot should have never been taken. Anything that is not regulated (such as firearm sales are) can not be seized for any reason.

The cops that visited my neighborhood were grossly incompetent. They could not understand the difference between resisting arrest and being so completely confused as to have no idea what was going on or who was behind those bright lights. They were excited, as much as any child is, the night before Christmas, wondering what they will find under the tree. In this case they were so excited, they "had" to find a gun, no matter what. Forget the 4th Amendment, "CLEAR THE HOUSE"!

My nightmare is almost over. When I can truly say it's over, I'll update this post.

Stonewalker
12-31-2010, 10:39 AM
When you say "my nightmare is almost over" I assume you mean the criminal and civil lawsuits you filed are almost concluded? You didn't mention an attorney or court case anywhere in your story, did you contact an attorney? Are there public records or news articles you can post?

DougJ
12-31-2010, 10:41 AM
WOW, I hope you're working with savvy legal counsel.

Crazy story, especially how long they kept you.

thrasherfox
12-31-2010, 10:48 AM
yeah what Stonewalker said.

You need to pursue owning the keys to the city. I would be getting people fired, written up. I would do everything I could to cause as much stress for the department as possible.

That is totally unsat!!

00BuckShot
12-31-2010, 11:01 AM
Very unfortunate. Hope everything works in your favor from here on out.

BlindRacer
12-31-2010, 11:05 AM
If possible, please let us know the city this took place in, and what department? I live in Orange County as well.

You should definitely pursue criminal and civil lawsuits. Those who would do such a thing to you deserve to be fired, and if applicable, held criminally and financially liable for all of your misfortune. Don't let them get away with it, so that the same people can go and do it to another.

JoeNoBody
12-31-2010, 11:07 AM
Update and clarification

I did have a law firm, waiting to take action. So far, we have decided to wait and see.

There are no published stories, as this is the first time I have gone public. This case may be worth the Keys to the City, but that's for the attorneys to decide. All I know is my property has been returned and if I ever was 5150 prohibited, is has been removed.

Hector
12-31-2010, 11:07 AM
Every constitutional right that is stepped on...is for YOUR safety. Barf

sandman21
12-31-2010, 11:08 AM
IBTD!!!!!!!

seek legal representation. So that this does not happen again.

JoeNoBody
12-31-2010, 11:08 AM
Was this you or was it taken from an e-mail/another forum?

This is not a copy and paste. This actually happen to me this last Labor Day weekend.

Jason762
12-31-2010, 11:12 AM
This is not a copy and paste. This actually happen to me this last Labor Day weekend.

Yup. Figured it out by post #7. Deleted my comment since it didn't provide anything useful.

Good luck, hope everything goes well.

Stonewalker
12-31-2010, 11:12 AM
Update and clarification

I did have a law firm, waiting to take action. So far, we have decided to wait and see.

There are no published stories, as this is the first time I have gone public. This case may be worth the Keys to the City, but that's for the attorneys to decide. All I know is my property has been returned and if I ever was 5150 prohibited, is has been removed.

Well that's good, it sounds like your 2A rights are safe, which is way more than most people who wound up your situation could say! I've read many stories where somebody in your shoes were shot dead because they didn't realize how serious and/or jumpy the LEO on scene were. Is your attorney OK with you posting all this information in a public place? It might compromise a lawsuit.

This sounds like a LEO agency may end up getting it's coffers emptied and perhaps a few bad LEO fired/prosecuted. I look forward to more updates.

CSACANNONEER
12-31-2010, 11:17 AM
Why haven't you filed assault charges against the criminals who beat you? Do you or your lawyrs have a copy of all 911 tapes yet? I'm willing to bet that they are or will be "lost" so, get them asap!

nick
12-31-2010, 11:40 AM
If the facts are as stated, you should, no, you MUST sue. Every time a government official(s) get away with something like this enables them to do it again, and again, and again, until it becomes the norm. So every time something like this happens, the government must be slapped down as hard as possible. The main reason it keeps happening is that people allow it to happen by not pursuing whatever legal actions still available to them. So every person who had a good case like this against the government and chose not to pursue it is guilty of allowing this to happen to someone else.

Provided, of course, that the facts as stated are correct.

American Insurgent
12-31-2010, 11:51 AM
do not defeat the word filter ~rkt!!!!!! ***** LIKE THIS PISSES ME OFF!!!!

IntoForever
12-31-2010, 12:58 PM
Just takes a few bad actions to make the entire LEO look bad. If this is true, those involved need to be removed.

todd2968
12-31-2010, 1:30 PM
You will not enact change unless you pursue this legally. The officers will do this again and it sound like they were either not properly trained or overstepped. I hope you pursue this with the full extent of the law with pain and suffering to illegal search and full denial of your rights, not to mention tarnishing your name by throwing you in a pysch ward.

I expect an invite to the party you throw with the millions you get when it is all settled!!! Good luck

voiceofreason
12-31-2010, 1:36 PM
Sue and collect for the sake of the straight arrow police officers in the department that have to work with the trash.

Make it so the honorable officers don't have to work with such rubbish.

chiselchst
12-31-2010, 2:07 PM
I agree with the folks here, you MUST hit them, and hit them hard.

They need to be made an example.

What happened to you, is a massive violation to your, and your rights. It's absurd...

753X0
12-31-2010, 3:15 PM
Why haven't you filed assault charges against the criminals who beat you? Do you or your lawyrs have a copy of all 911 tapes yet? I'm willing to bet that they are or will be "lost" so, get them asap!
No charges can be filed by a private party. And assault would likely not be best here. More likely battery/ADW.

JoeNoBody
12-31-2010, 3:34 PM
You are so right. I could have been killed by those guys. All they understood was that I was refusing to do what they said. Even though I was practically naked, with only shorts and socks on and they could clearly see I was not armed or dangerous, they no doubt kept their guns aimed at my chest.

It was not a pleasant experience and my high regard for my city police department has been tarnished badly.


Well that's good, it sounds like your 2A rights are safe, which is way more than most people who wound up your situation could say! I've read many stories where somebody in your shoes were shot dead because they didn't realize how serious and/or jumpy the LEO on scene were. Is your attorney OK with you posting all this information in a public place? It might compromise a lawsuit.

This sounds like a LEO agency may end up getting it's coffers emptied and perhaps a few bad LEO fired/prosecuted. I look forward to more updates.

Burbur
12-31-2010, 3:40 PM
Granted, these officers should pay for their crimes, but why do the taxpayers of <<Orange County City>>?

This is one of the major faults I see with suing LEOs and civil law in general. If I beat you with a baseball bat, in front of someone else's house, Louisville Slugger and the other homeowner homeowner shouldn't be financially responsible whatsoever.

That said, sue every mother f****r in the room.

uyoga
12-31-2010, 3:43 PM
My recommendation is simple: Make SURE your lawyers are experienced Civil Rights lawyers. This is too big and important a case to just hand over to your local GP, or relative or family friend.

JoeNoBody
12-31-2010, 3:51 PM
I can't count how many attorneys called me after I contacted the OC Bar Association. Every one of them made it crystal clear they don't work for free. Until about 6 weeks ago, I had been unemployed for 2.5 years. Believe me I have no ability to hire a lawyer. The firm I did contact may or may not decide to move forward. If they do move forward, it will be at their expense, so I have little to say about it.

OJ Simpson had 5 million bucks to pay his defense team. That's how he got away with it.

I also contact the ACLU and was never contacted in reply. I understand they love this kind of stuff! I also contacted some better known law firms in Los Angeles and my request for help was ignored.

I posted the story so all of you that read it will know, that sometimes the common guy that gets abused by a police agency can still come up a winner, even if no body stands up for him/her.

I could have been classified 5150 prohibited. I would have lost all my weapons and would have spent the next five years, unable to own any firearms. I had no one to help me (the law firm I mentioned did not come along till late in the game) so I had to do my own research and try my best. I have no reason to believe the police chief of this department, nor the deputy chief, nor anyone above Captan ever knew about this incident.


If the facts are as stated, you should, no, you MUST sue. Every time a government official(s) get away with something like this enables them to do it again, and again, and again, until it becomes the norm. So every time something like this happens, the government must be slapped down as hard as possible. The main reason it keeps happening is that people allow it to happen by not pursuing whatever legal actions still available to them. So every person who had a good case like this against the government and chose not to pursue it is guilty of allowing this to happen to someone else.

Provided, of course, that the facts as stated are correct.

scarville
12-31-2010, 4:16 PM
Every constitutional right that is stepped on...is for YOUR safety. Barf
Sometimes is certainly seems it's either that that or officer safety.

nick
12-31-2010, 4:42 PM
No charges can be filed by a private party. And assault would likely not be best here. More likely battery/ADW.

Actually, charges can be filed by a private party. You don't get the same protections the DAs get when they file charges and the charges are dismissed, so it's not a safe path, but you can file charges and have a resulting court hearing.

nick
12-31-2010, 4:54 PM
I can't count how many attorneys called me after I contacted the OC Bar Association. Every one of them made it crystal clear they don't work for free. Until about 6 weeks ago, I had been unemployed for 2.5 years. Believe me I have no ability to hire a lawyer. The firm I did contact may or may not decide to move forward. If they do move forward, it will be at their expense, so I have little to say about it.

OJ Simpson had 5 million bucks to pay his defense team. That's how he got away with it.

I also contact the ACLU and was never contacted in reply. I understand they love this kind of stuff! I also contacted some better known law firms in Los Angeles and my request for help was ignored.

I posted the story so all of you that read it will know, that sometimes the common guy that gets abused by a police agency can still come up a winner, even if no body stands up for him/her.

I could have been classified 5150 prohibited. I would have lost all my weapons and would have spent the next five years, unable to own any firearms. I had no one to help me (the law firm I mentioned did not come along till late in the game) so I had to do my own research and try my best. I have no reason to believe the police chief of this department, nor the deputy chief, nor anyone above Captan ever knew about this incident.

Indeed, getting a lawyer to defend yourself from bogus charges or to do something where the only payoff is the return of some property you already own that was stolen from you (unless we're talking millions of dollars here) doesn't come cheap. Supposedly, the government is there for precisely that reason, but then, who will prosecute the guardians when they commit the crimes in question?

However, when it comes to you suing for the violation of your civil rights and the damages to you at the hands of the local government (which has taxpayer money to waste), I'd be surprised if there isn't enough lawyers willing to work on contingency, if the case is solid enough. Let me know if you're having a hard time finding one, and I'll ask some family members if they might recommend a lawyer who is likely to be interested in this kind of case (half of my family are lawyers. Sad, huh? :)).

nick
12-31-2010, 4:54 PM
My recommendation is simple: Make SURE your lawyers are experienced Civil Rights lawyers. This is too big and important a case to just hand over to your local GP, or relative or family friend.

Good advice, provided they take the case.

Jack L
12-31-2010, 5:31 PM
I can't count how many attorneys called me after I contacted the OC Bar Association. Every one of them made it crystal clear they don't work for free. Until about 6 weeks ago, I had been unemployed for 2.5 years. Believe me I have no ability to hire a lawyer. The firm I did contact may or may not decide to move forward. If they do move forward, it will be at their expense, so I have little to say about it.

OJ Simpson had 5 million bucks to pay his defense team. That's how he got away with it.

I also contact the ACLU and was never contacted in reply. I understand they love this kind of stuff! I also contacted some better known law firms in Los Angeles and my request for help was ignored.

I posted the story so all of you that read it will know, that sometimes the common guy that gets abused by a police agency can still come up a winner, even if no body stands up for him/her.

I could have been classified 5150 prohibited. I would have lost all my weapons and would have spent the next five years, unable to own any firearms. I had no one to help me (the law firm I mentioned did not come along till late in the game) so I had to do my own research and try my best. I have no reason to believe the police chief of this department, nor the deputy chief, nor anyone above Captan ever knew about this incident.


Have a local newspaper or magazine write your story up and make sure in it that you are seeking legal council. I bet your phone would ring.

GuyW
12-31-2010, 5:47 PM
You have to file a claim against the government within 6 months of the incident. Don't miss this deadline or your case will be absolutely OVER, finished, dead, forever.
.

dapster
12-31-2010, 6:23 PM
This is a true story, the name of the Police Department has been redacted to protect the stupid.

I will start by saying I live in Orange County. I will not mention the city by name for a little while longer.

My nightmare is almost over. When I can truly say it's over, I'll update this post.
Just curious, absent specifics such as the identity of the police department, what precisely is the purpose of this post? Further, what defines the termination of the OP's nightmare?

Kid Stanislaus
12-31-2010, 6:29 PM
He said he'd reveal the PD that did this. Has he done that? I remain skeptical.

JoeNoBody
01-01-2011, 8:50 AM
Just curious, absent specifics such as the identity of the police department, what precisely is the purpose of this post? Further, what defines the termination of the OP's nightmare?

The last issue remaining is my adult child's property in the form of a firearm. It was in my home, being stored by me when it was taken. I have been told that it will be boxed up and sent to the city PD where he/she lives and then be returned. It has not happened yet.

Have you ever thought that members of police departments may very well visit this web site too?

Why did I post this? To make everyone aware of Sweig v The People of California, 2008. That ruling may very well make a huge difference in the way law enforcement agencies interact with the people they are sworn to protect. Sweig v The People is now case law and can't be messed with. I'm sure the average street cop has never heard of this case. It should be standard classroom instruction in all California police academies.

If an attorney reads this and wants to take action, that's fine with me. Otherwise consider me a law abiding citizen who is in no position to take legal action against this PD. I consider myself fortunate to have had all my property returned. As for the physical injuries sustained that will likely follow me to the grave, that will be a life-long reminder of the fact that all is really required of a person applying for a job as a LEO is a High School Diploma.

I have no reason to believe that anything will change. Individual LEO's will never be held personally accountable for their actions as a general rule. Yes we do have a few cops, locked up in prison. Rafael Perez and the Rampart Division he worked in. He stole cocaine from the evidence room and gave it to street dealers to sell and share in the profits. Did any of the Rodney King cops do any time? No. Did Mark Fhurman do any time after being found guilty of lying under oath in the OJ case? No. We have the Oakland Transit cop locked up for manslaughter. The Long Beach cops who killed Doug Zerby will not do any time in prison, I'm confident of that. They will all loose their jobs and when they are sued in Civil Court, the LBPD and the City will pay the multi-million dollar judgments. The cops that actually killed Zerby will spend the rest of their lives working as Security Guards, watching over a pile of dirt on a construction site. For every 100 cops that have committed unjustified killings, perhaps one or two are in prison.

The Bobbies (cops) in England, to this day still do not carry guns, so deadly force is never an option.

Police work for the most part is 98% boredom with an occasional 2% of being in a situation where you are so scared, you loose control of your rational thinking. An Anaheim cop was in foot pursuit of a suspect, the bad guy ran through someone's front yard. The cop ran up and thought the guy standing in his own front yard was the bad guy, so he killed him. Remember the cop who had a guy on the ground? The cop was over him and had his gun pointed at the guy on the ground. The cop ordered the man to get up and as he did, the cop shot him in the back. Good thing this incident was caught on tape. I'll bet that cop is not in prison.

If there ever came a day when LEO's were held personally liable for their actions, we might have a kinder, gentler, less aggressive and more professional LEA's.

JoeNoBody
01-01-2011, 9:07 AM
Correction. Koon and Powell of the Rodney King incident did serve time of 30 months in prison. My mistake.

dieselpower
01-01-2011, 9:33 AM
So you have til first week in March to file. Lifelong injuries require lifelong medical bills...and it only get worse with age.

I got my arm wrenched when I was 35, by drunk LEO who thought he was a bar bouncer. Every year it gets worse, the cost to repair my arm is twice my salary and 6-8 weeks off work...so its not happening. Even if the VA pays it, its still 6-8weeks at best no work. At this time I can not lift my own rifle above my head [with that one arm]..it just will not do that. I am told in 10 years I will not be able to lift any weight and in 20 years I will not be able to raise my arm past my neck...

You really need to think about legal action.

bbguns44
01-01-2011, 9:55 AM
" Otherwise consider me a law abiding citizen who is in no position to take legal action against this PD."

Smells like BS to me. Cops show up & spontaneously beat the crap out of you & you're
not in a position to take action ? This is a gold mine for a any mildly competent lawyer.
The details of the story just don't jive. I've got high blood pressure & my pills don't knock
me out. What kind of pills are you taking ?

cdtx2001
01-01-2011, 10:03 AM
You need to contact the CGF, Calguns Foundation. They can point you to the appropriate legal path to take on this. Bweiss or Gene can help I'm sure.

bbguns44
01-01-2011, 10:11 AM
Why is it that when a gun owner or conservative gets pounded there is no legal
case but an illegal or liberal gets touched there's always a multi-million pay off ?
Are the ACLU, Jesse Jackson lawyers so much better ?

Ford8N
01-01-2011, 10:24 AM
Hmmmmm.......

No video from the car?

JoeNoBody
01-01-2011, 11:24 AM
Do you have a sleep disorder?

Remember what happened to Tiger Woods on Thanksgiving Day, 2 years ago. Forget about the part that he got caught cheating, he was trying to drive away while under the influence of Ambian, a highly addictive sleep aid that causes confusion and all kinds of other problems, what the person is not actually asleep.

I am not going to disclose to you or anyone else, what my list of medications consist of.

Obviously you dod not read the entire post and the follow up comments. I have been looking for a law firm to consider the case. They all want money up front. I had been unemployed for more than 2 years. Are you math challenged?

Everybody is all upset because I have not named the PD. If I did, it would likely ruin any chance I may have for future legal action.

Most people that have taken time to read this post, actually get it. Others can choose to not believe a word of it and go read another post.

" Otherwise consider me a law abiding citizen who is in no position to take legal action against this PD."

Smells like BS to me. Cops show up & spontaneously beat the crap out of you & you're
not in a position to take action ? This is a gold mine for a any mildly competent lawyer.
The details of the story just don't jive. I've got high blood pressure & my pills don't knock
me out. What kind of pills are you taking ?

JoeNoBody
01-01-2011, 11:27 AM
Why is it that when a gun owner or conservative gets pounded there is no legal
case but an illegal or liberal gets touched there's always a multi-million pay off ?
Are the ACLU, Jesse Jackson lawyers so much better ?

Perhaps if I were any color but white, they might have contacted me. My wife is a Latina, does that count?

dapster
01-01-2011, 5:07 PM
Have you ever thought that members of police departments may very well visit this web site too?

Why did I post this? To make everyone aware of Sweig v The People of California, 2008.
The above quoted material is responding to my post of 12-31-2010 7:23 PM to which I then say so what if "members of police departments may very well visit this web site too"?

With regard to the reason stated for your post being to "make everyone aware of Sweig v The People of California, 2008."

Allow me to suggest you could simply have said:

"Very interesting case: http://le.alcoda.org/publications/point_of_view/files/Sweig.pdf

"Everything that happened to Mr. Sweig in 2008, happened to me, without exception. Matters are still pending."

JoeNoBody
01-01-2011, 6:19 PM
I clicked on the link and it lead me to a "404 not found".

I never thought I would be crucified by the a few members of this group, for simply sharing what happened to me in 2010.

I take my Rights very seriously. Most people are too obsessed with "Dancing with the Stars" and other mindless entertainment to give any thought to the reasons why this makes our country the envy of all others. Why do you think that nearly every person on the planet wants to live in the USA?

The above quoted material is responding to my post of 12-31-2010 7:23 PM to which I then say so what if "members of police departments may very well visit this web site too"?

With regard to the reason stated for your post being to "make everyone aware of Sweig v The People of California, 2008."

Allow me to suggest you could simply have said:

"Very interesting case: http://le.alcoda.org/publications/po...iles/Sweig.pdf

"Everything that happened to Mr. Sweig in 2008, happened to me, without exception. Matters are still pending."

BAGunner
01-01-2011, 7:44 PM
the link in the OP works.
Sweig.pdf (http://le.alcoda.org/publications/point_of_view/files/Sweig.pdf)
I clicked on the link and it lead me to a "404 not found".

I never thought I would be crucified by the a few members of this group, for simply sharing what happened to me in 2010.

I take my Rights very seriously. Most people are too obsessed with "Dancing with the Stars" and other mindless entertainment to give any thought to the reasons why this makes our country the envy of all others. Why do you think that nearly every person on the planet wants to live in the USA?

bbguns44
01-01-2011, 8:10 PM
"I have been looking for a law firm to consider the case. They all want money up front"

There are tons of personal injury lawyers eager to to take contingency cases. There
was a Vietnamese guy who threatened to kill his roomate, cops showed up, he didn't
cooperate & they beat him up, he got a good settlement. Maybe you should find a
vietnamese lawyer. The longer you wait, the less likely you're getting anywhere.

Contact the Calguns lawyers. Assuming you told the truth, it certainly sounds like you
got a case. And considering you've been unemployeed for 2.5 years, the money should
come in very handy. But yea, I am skeptical. You weren't even the target just a
bystander and you got caught up ? What was so hard about the questions they asked
that a few yes & nos couldn't settle ? No I didn't hear anything. No I didn't see anything. Yes I've been sick & in bed for the past week.

Dutch3
01-01-2011, 8:25 PM
I never thought I would be crucified by the a few members of this group, for simply sharing what happened to me in 2010.



I thank you for sharing your experience. A friend endured similar treatment in 2005 during a "gang sweep" (Burbank PD - "Operation Silent Night"). A warrant was served on his home, his weapons were seized and he was subjected to "less than friendly" interrogation.

Although he was not involved in any of the activities or organizations targeted in the raid, nor was he ever charged with any crime as a result, his weapons were never returned and he has been informed they have been destroyed.

I have questioned the concept of authority with the ability to overtly abuse citizens and perform acts of burglary and theft while hiding behind "the law".

So far, I have come up empty for an explanation. While it is unfortunate you have experienced a similar incident, I appreciate you sharing it and hope others will do the same.

-D

stitchnicklas
01-01-2011, 8:26 PM
i suggest you con tact cgf and/or jason davis aka the california version of alan gura--->http://www.calgunlawyers.com/Davis_%26_Associates/Home.html

cbn620
01-02-2011, 3:03 AM
When I was a kid I watched the police brutalize my father, a Vietnam veteran, when he was having a flashback. I completely sympathize with you.

I doubt it, but the ACLU could be interested in a case like this on 4th amendment grounds. They can be pretty anti-gun but they stand up for our other rights pretty well. Definitely contact CGF or one of the law offices they're associated with, though. Won't even attempt to speak for them but that's what they're there for, and I'm sure they will at least hear you out.

At any rate I'm sorry to hear this happened to you. That is a very worst nightmare sort of situation to be in. I can't even imagine. I really wish you the best and I hope you take it to these bastards in every legal way possible.

Tarn_Helm
01-02-2011, 1:29 PM
The last issue remaining is . . .
The Bobbies (cops) in England, to this day still do not carry guns, so deadly force is never an option. . . . (Edited by me.)

Not true. (I do feel sorry for your troubles, but the claim you make above is false.)

I lived in the U.K. in from 1986 to 1987.

I was good friends with a detective in 1986 who, along with his detective buddy, was in the process of applying for admittance to the armed ranks of his jurisdiction's armed police.

The cops on the beat are like intersection crossing guards with radios, ASP batons, and pepper spray.

Those are the ones everyone sees.

But there have been armed police in the U.K. for a very long time.

Sidenote: Anyone who wants information about the English experience of guns and violence should read this: Guns and Violence: The English Experience (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0674016084/ref=pd_lpo_k2_dp_sr_2?pf_rd_p=486539851&pf_rd_s=lpo-top-stripe-1&pf_rd_t=201&pf_rd_i=0674893077&pf_rd_m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&pf_rd_r=0DTFDBJBRH0GS76K9E27), by Joyce Malcolm (http://www.law.gmu.edu/faculty/directory/fulltime/malcolm_joyce), an expert quoted by David T. Hardy (http://www.secondamendmentdocumentary.com/content/view/15/31/) in his film, "In Search of the Second Amendment (http://www.secondamendmentdocumentary.com/)."

planedude86
01-02-2011, 10:28 PM
Did IA contact you regarding your complaint? Do not let this matter drop, especially since you were injured as a result of this incident.

paintballergb
01-03-2011, 8:39 AM
I never thought I would be crucified by the a few members of this group, for simply sharing what happened to me in 2010.


This is Calguns man, we eat our own. :rolleyes:

ocspeedracer
01-03-2011, 9:08 AM
Thanks for sharing this, I hope you contact the CGF and I'm curious to see what they say.

MrClamperSir
02-12-2011, 6:02 PM
Update? Anything happening?

Legasat
02-12-2011, 7:04 PM
What a horrendous story! You probably need to speak with someone like Jason Davis (Attorney in OC).

Hope everything works out.

(I heard OJ spent $20M on his defense)

Noobie
02-12-2011, 8:18 PM
Nevermind - I just read your posts from May. You are an ex-cop, living in a bad neighborhood where people get shot in the head, and you're asking CG how to get a CCW.

Cali-Shooter
02-12-2011, 8:33 PM
Wow, I wish the OP the best in his endeavor. If he is able to find an attorney to represent him, he should take the damn city for all they're flippin' worth.

Absolutely, UNACCEPTABLE behavior on behalf of those cops involved. I would definitely not settle nor stop just for getting my property returned and having the 'prohibited' status repealed. Take them for all they've got, you can't give up.

geeknow
02-12-2011, 8:53 PM
Noobie,
Good catch. This is starting to look 'odd', and makes me think that, perhaps, cgn was used by the op for some other, more nefarious purpose by the op. It is certainly odd that no facts can be verified independantly. Almost like he was counting on a certain 'anti-LE' sentiment to rise up in his defense.

Very odd, indeed. I'm doubtful it happened as recounted.

Kid Stanislaus
02-12-2011, 9:02 PM
Yeah, its really beginning to stink.

forgiven
02-13-2011, 2:36 AM
:gene:

JoeNoBody
02-13-2011, 3:41 PM
Thanks to all of you for your comments, both positive and negative.

I was sure this post was deleted. I have not been able to find it.

Many of you pushed me for info as to what police department was involved. Now I can tell all of you that the PD involved, is the Anaheim Police Department.

I had contacted many lawyers and all of them told me "they do not work for free". Basically no one I contacted was willing to help me, except one firm. More later.

I did my research and found a case, Sweig v. the People of California. What happened to Mr. Sweig, happened, to me, with no exceptions in the chronology.

The Appellate Court ruled that once Mr. Sweig was "cuffed and stuffed" in a Police car, the cops had to stop. They had to call in they were "Code 4" no need for assistance and start writing the report. The cops instead decided, once Mr. Sweig was "cuffed and stuffed", it was time to search his house. The cops found his rifle (he was sitting on his porch, holding his rifle when the 911 call came in) and then found an "assault rifle" under his bed. Mr. Sweig was charged with "unlawful possession of an assault rifle". When it went to court, the Judge dismissed all the charges, based on the fact that the police conducted an unlawful search of Mr. Sweigs' home. The moment Mr. Sweig was in custody, the game was over! You can find the court's decision with a simple search. The whole decision is less than 15 pages.

Once I was in custody, the "game was over". The APD then decided to "clear the house" (as it was said in their official report). They then spent 2.5 hours in my home, with my wife and son sitting outside, searching for anything that they could take away. When my family was allowed back in the house, they saw all of my "toys" on the sofa.

3 air rifles
1 air pistol
1 AR-15
1 .45 cal auto
1 .44 cal revolver
2 cross bows
Arrows and my son's wrist rocket.

The cops asked my wife for permission to take all the items. She replied "why don't you ask my husband if it's OK, all these items belong to him". They gave her a receipt for the property and took it all away.

As I mentioned previously any property that can be purchased without regulation (basically anything except firearms) can not be seized. I guess the cops did not know this at the time.

I was taken to a hospital against my will and admitted under H&S 5150. I was waiting in the ER for 24 hours, before I was even admitted to the psych ward. My injuries were not treated during my time in the ER. The hospital was looking for a way to dump me on another facility, so they did not even so much as clean the horrific scrape on my left elbow. One person in the ER was kind enough to wash away the dried blood that was all over my face. I monitored my own blood pressure and told them I needed my meds. They refused to give them to me. My BP kept rising up and up and up.

I was finally admitted to the psych ward about midnight. I was given a paper to sign that basically would have made me "5150 Prohibited" (can not possess a firearm or ammo for 5 years), I refused to sign it.

My room had a bed, not a hospital bed, just a mattress on top of a plywood base. No TV, no radio, nothing. The psychiatrist came in my room about 06:00. We had a 5 minute conversation, long enough for her to agree, I did not belong there. Nevertheless, it was recommended I say another night, as if I had a choice in the matter!

I was really scared to be in a ward with 40 or so truly crazy men and women. I hated every minute of it.

Once I finally got out of there, every time I visited the APD in my efforts to get my property back, I was told by these people that I was now 5150 Prohibited.

Once this nightmare was over, I wrote a letter to the Internal Affairs Department of the APD and cited the Sweig V. California case, and basically suggested to them that they were F**ked! Next thing I know, the APD became VERY cooperative. All of my property that was not classified as a firearm, was returned without question. They still had my AR-15 and two hand guns.

I was told that I had to fill out a form and include $20.00 and send it to the California DOJ. If the hospital had reported my stay in the nut house to the DOJ, I would have truly been 5150 prohibited. I will never know the true story. Every attempt to get copies of my medical records from that hospital were refused. They would not release MY PERSONAL medical records to me, they would only release them to a doctor. It mattered not that had no personal doctor.

Did the hospital report me to the DOJ?
If so, did the APD pull some strings to have this report deleted from the DOJ database?

On Dec. 22, I received a letter from the DOJ, stating that I was "eligible to possess a firearm". I took the letter to the APD and on Dec. 24, they returned the firearms to me.

The one law firm that was willing to represent me, was sure they had an excellent civil case against the PD. They warned me that if we moved forward with a civil case, the APD would retaliate against me by at the minimum, charging me with Resisting Arrest or any other felony they could scrape up. The worst case if we moved forward was, I would see a hefty cash settlement, and I would be a convicted felon at the same time. My firearms were locked up in the APD for roughly 4 months. Perhaps some of you know what it's like to be defenseless. I hated it! I could never bear the idea of spending the rest of my life without a single firearm to protect me and my family.

Perhaps others in this group have a different opinion.

QQQ
02-13-2011, 3:48 PM
...

The one law firm that was willing to represent me, was sure they had an excellent civil case against the PD. They warned me that if we moved forward with a civil case, the APD would retaliate against me by at the minimum, charging me with Resisting Arrest or any other felony they could scrape up. The worst case if we moved forward was, I would see a hefty cash settlement, and I would be a convicted felon at the same time. My firearms were locked up in the APD for roughly 4 months. Perhaps some of you know what it's like to be defenseless. I hated it! I could never bear the idea of spending the rest of my life without a single firearm to protect me and my family.

Perhaps others in this group have a different opinion.

I am highly skeptical that they would retroactively charge you with a felony without any evidence thereof while you're rightfully suing their asses.
Sue them, but be sure that your lawyers know 2A law and have experience with lawsuits against police departments.

Curtis
02-13-2011, 4:02 PM
I'm glad all worked out well. I too had some (but not all) my firearms in the care of LE. Although my situation was different, it was still too difficult to get them back, in my opinion.

I grew up in Anaheim and my parents still live there. APD has a reputation for playing hardball.

Again, I'm glad that all your firearms have been returned. In the future, if you are looking for a thread you started, go to your profile and search "threads started by". I've had the same issue finding my own threads.

gunsmith
02-13-2011, 4:14 PM
I have not read the entire thread but if I were you I would ask your wife and son not to ever again consent to any search.

btw maybe some of our legal team here could handle the lawsuit for you

Shotgun Man
02-13-2011, 4:32 PM
I am highly skeptical that they would retroactively charge you with a felony without any evidence thereof while you're rightfully suing their asses.
Sue them, but be sure that your lawyers know 2A law and have experience with lawsuits against police departments.

The only evidence they would need is the cops' statements. Police reports could exist or be fabricated and pre-dated. I would not put it by the gov to charge somebody with resisting in retaliation to a lawsuit.

gunsmith
02-13-2011, 5:23 PM
the wife and son need to learn a simple sentence "I do not consent to any search".
Good luck.

QQQ
02-13-2011, 5:23 PM
The only evidence they would need is the cops' statements. Police reports could exist or be fabricated and pre-dated. I would not put it by the gov to charge somebody with resisting in retaliation to a lawsuit.

Really? It's a shame that a person could be tried for a felony offense based solely on witness statements.

JoeNoBody
02-13-2011, 6:12 PM
I have not read the entire thread but if I were you I would ask your wife and son not to ever again consent to any search.

btw maybe some of our legal team here could handle the lawsuit for you

My wife is not a born and raised American. My son is 12 years old and can not lawfully consent to anything.

Early last year, her nephew (an excellent soccer player) was murdered in her home country. My guess is that some big money was riding his team's victory. They lost the game. Later that day, he was murdered. Three shots to each leg and then the upper body shots followed. He was one day away from his 18th birthday.

Needless to say, the family had no money to pay the police to conduct a proper investigation. It was a common assumption that the police in her country were corrupt to the core.

When the cops invaded our home, my wife simply assumed this was SOP (Standard Operating Procedure), since her life's experience said "you do not interfere with the police" and you better have some money to make them happy.

My wife understands corruption and has little understanding of the Bill of Rights.

vincewarde
02-14-2011, 3:53 PM
Sue and collect for the sake of the straight arrow police officers in the department that have to work with the trash.

Make it so the honorable officers don't have to work with such rubbish.

AMEN BROTHER! These guys were way out of line. At the minimum they need to have some negative feedback and retraining directed their way. Most cops I have known - both as a paramedic and a PD Chaplain - would have NEVER behaved this this way.

Sadly, I have seen many people 5150'ed without adequate cause. Sometimes because the cops thought it was the safest thing to do, sometimes because it was the easiest thing to do. I have seen cops 5150 people for being involved in a domestic dispute because, "We don't want to get called here again this shift."

Now once someone is 5150'ed, removing firearms is a given. But in this case there were no grounds for the 5150.

THANK GOD this has worked out as well as it has.

JoeNoBody
02-14-2011, 5:58 PM
AMEN BROTHER! These guys were way out of line. At the minimum they need to have some negative feedback and retraining directed their way. Most cops I have known - both as a paramedic and a PD Chaplain - would have NEVER behaved this this way...



...Now once someone is 5150'ed, removing firearms is a given. But in this case there were no grounds for the 5150.

THANK GOD this has worked out as well as it has.

In one of my past posts to this thread, I mentioned how unjust this tactic really is.

- First the cops haul you in to a hospital on a 5150 charge and like me, I WAS NOT a 5150.

- The hospital taps a few keys on the keyboard and hits the send button off to the DOJ, and without a trial by a jury of your peers, you are now forbidden to own a firearm or any ammo for five years. You have no defense. You do get one appeal and one only.

- Sometime later, perhaps you are stopped by the police for a traffic infraction and they search you car and find a single .22 cal cartridge. Perhaps it's yours or perhaps it fell out the cops shirt pocket. This little find could now move you to a permanent ban on firearm ownership and possible a felony conviction.

You are now screwed for life, without any criminal charges, without a trial, without a Judge, without a jury verdict.

I would say the only reason things worked out for me, was because of "People V. Sweig" and the president the case set.

As for any future lawsuits, that's not my choice, but the choice of the Firm that actually believed we had a good shot at winning. If they are going to pick up the tab for the lawsuit, they call the shots, not me.

Cobrafreak
02-14-2011, 6:21 PM
It is your duty as a gun owner to sue the craap out of them because it will happen to us later if you dont.

cmaynes
02-14-2011, 6:24 PM
listen to your legal counsel and the best of luck on pressing charges...

JoeNoBody
02-14-2011, 8:06 PM
It is your duty as a gun owner to sue the craap out of them because it will happen to us later if you dont.

May I say, it's your duty to know the court's decisions (such as People V. Sweig) so you can fight back if your life ever gets phucked up, like mine did for 6 months.

As I said, If I were OJ Simpson and had 5 million dollars to hire the "Dream Team" to get me off on a double murder charge, it would mater not. But us "common people" who can't afford an attorney, have have to suck it up and get over it.

Charlie Manson never killed a single person and he will be locked up forever. OJ violently killed 2 people, almost completely cutting off the head of his children's mother and he got away with it! Every intelligent person in this country knows this.

When a common person commits murder, they go to prison forever. When OJ or Robert Blake commits murder, they get away with it. It's that simple. OJ is in prison for armed robbery, not murder.

Additionally, I said it's my lawyer's who will contact me, if they conclude a lawsuit is the best thing to do. I am not a lawyer. If I were not 2 years older than God, I might very seriously consider going to law school.

meangreen46
02-14-2011, 9:27 PM
:popcorn:

JoeNoBody
02-15-2011, 8:02 AM
the wife and son need to learn a simple sentence "I do not consent to any search".
Good luck.

I should make it clear that my wife did not give permission for the police to enter our home. They ordered my wife and son to wait outside as they "cleared the house" for 2.5 hours.

The Sweig case squashed the cops excuses for going in. First they claimed "exigent circumstances" gave them authority to go in. A exigent circumstance example, a cop is driving by a home, the drapes are open, he sees people on the sofa, it appears they are tied up. The cop sees a man with a gun walking around inside the home. He concludes this may be a home invasion robbery. He opens the door without knocking and shoots the bad guy. No problems here.

The second excuse they tried was the "community caretaker" option. A cop walks past a home and smells natural gas. He assumes there is a serious gas leak, no one is home, he calls the Gas Company and they will not be able to be there for 30 minutes. The cop decides to enter the house and investigate the cause of the gas leak. Perhaps it's an accidental gas leak, perhaps someone is inside, trying to commit suicide by gassing themselves. This action is not considered illegal in any way. What happens if he sees a bunch of iPods and iPads on the table and he thinks they may be stolen property? He has to turn around and walk out and then come back with a search warrant.

The cops in Sweig's case, searched the house illegally. They found the rifle he was holding when they arrived at the house. This was not good enough for them, they continued searching till they found the "assault rifle" under his bed. Conclusion: Completely illegal.

DemocracyEnaction
02-15-2011, 8:17 AM
I hear so many of these stories from Socal. The leos seem to think they are superior to the public. It is sad that the public cant trust those entrusted to protect and serve them.

GrizzlyGuy
02-15-2011, 8:25 AM
Good work JoeNoBody, and kudos for fighting the good fight. As Franklin said, "we must all hang together, or assuredly we shall all hang separately".

Here is People v. Sweig (http://scholar.google.com/scholar_case?case=9936914261473802559&hl=en&as_sdt=2&as_vis=1&oi=scholarr) for those interested in reading it. A quicker read is this summary of the case from the Alameda County District Attorney's website (http://le.alcoda.org/publications/point_of_view/files/Sweig.pdf).

Gray Peterson
02-15-2011, 8:33 AM
The one law firm that was willing to represent me, was sure they had an excellent civil case against the PD. They warned me that if we moved forward with a civil case, the APD would retaliate against me by at the minimum, charging me with Resisting Arrest or any other felony they could scrape up. The worst case if we moved forward was, I would see a hefty cash settlement, and I would be a convicted felon at the same time. My firearms were locked up in the APD for roughly 4 months. Perhaps some of you know what it's like to be defenseless. I hated it! I could never bear the idea of spending the rest of my life without a single firearm to protect me and my family.

Perhaps others in this group have a different opinion.

Contact Jason Davis. He can be contacted at http://www.calgunlawyers.com

-Gray

DannyInSoCal
02-15-2011, 8:42 AM
If you're not going to sue - Then ask to have this thread deleted...

GrizzlyGuy
02-15-2011, 8:53 AM
As for any future lawsuits, that's not my choice, but the choice of the Firm that actually believed we had a good shot at winning. If they are going to pick up the tab for the lawsuit, they call the shots, not me.

Note that a lawsuit may be difficult to win due to the LEA's immunity when they are acting in good faith. CA Welfare and Institutions Code 8102 (http://law.onecle.com/california/welfare/8102.html) requires them to confiscate the guns in a case like yours, so they would likely claim that they were simply making a good faith effort to obey the law:

(a) Whenever a person, who has been detained or apprehended
for examination of his or her mental condition or who is a person
described in Section 8100 or 8103, is found to own, have in his or
her possession or under his or her control, any firearm whatsoever,
or any other deadly weapon, the firearm or other deadly weapon shall
be confiscated by any law enforcement agency or peace officer, who
shall retain custody of the firearm or other deadly weapon.

People v. Sweig resulted in evidence from the confiscatory search being suppressed, but may not be enough to overcome LEA immunity in a civil case.

JoeNoBody
02-15-2011, 9:04 AM
If you're not going to sue - Then ask to have this thread deleted...

May I suggest that removing this thread would be quite unacceptable. As I have said many times, it's not my choice to sue or not. If I had tons of cash, I would hire the best 2nd Amendment Law Firm in the country and punish the offenders civilly.

I hope that by sharing this experience with this group, others will learn something from my experience.

Last Sunday, the APD came back to my neighborhood to respond to a domestic disturbance during the Super Bowl. After they were done, I approached the Sgt. I wanted to ask him if he was at my house on the Sunday evening of Labor Day. He was not, but did recall hearing about it. The conversation shifted to the Sweig case and when I said "you guys (meaning the APD) had no right to enter my home", the Sgt. giggled a bit and gave me this "you're as stupid as a bag of rocks" look. We debated the issue a bit more, he never agreed with me and we parted on pleasant terms. If a field supervisor is not aware of this case, then we are all in "a world of ****".

So Danny in So Cal, should we really delete this thread?

JoeNoBody
02-15-2011, 9:11 AM
Note that a lawsuit may be difficult to win due to the LEA's immunity when they are acting in good faith. CA Welfare and Institutions Code 8102 (http://law.onecle.com/california/welfare/8102.html) requires them to confiscate the guns in a case like yours, so they would likely claim that they were simply making a good faith effort to obey the law:



People v. Sweig resulted in evidence from the confiscatory search being suppressed, but may not be enough to overcome LEA immunity in a civil case.

The court ruled that once Sweig was in custody, and was physically separated from his weapons, confiscation was no longer warranted. Sweig was sitting in a chair on his porch, holding a rifle. If Sweig has simply put the rifle on the floor, or leaned it against a wall on the porch, the cops could have taken it. Because it was in the house, the court ruled the cops should not have gone inside for it. Sweig was in custody, the cops should have locked the front door and taken Sweig away. End of Story. The cops knew Sweig would be on a 5150 hold for 72 hours and that was plenty of time to request a search warrant. The search warrant would list the rifle in question, had they found the rifle, again game over, the "assault rifle" would not be listed on the search warrant and therefore may have still been considered a "fruit of the poisonous tree". Had they done that, we would not be discussing this case today.

Gray Peterson
02-15-2011, 9:39 AM
Joe, Please contact Jason Davis about this situation.

JoeNoBody
02-15-2011, 9:49 AM
Joe, Please contact Jason Davis about this situation.

The name was familiar so I did a search of my email and found that I did contact him way back when. He was the one who emailed me the form to send to the CA DOJ.

pitchbaby
02-15-2011, 10:14 AM
If Grey is asking you to contact Jason... it may be worthwhile to mention that to Jason when you call him again. Just sayin'.

Gray Peterson
02-15-2011, 10:54 AM
If Gray is asking you to contact Jason... it may be worthwhile to mention that to Jason when you call him again. Just sayin'.

The reason is after everything is said and done and now that you have your guns back, the chances of them charging you with resisting arrest is suspect for numerous reasons.

First off, charging someone in the middle of a civil rights suit agaisnt same department is quite suspect. It is the County's State Attorney that files charges, not the PD itself.

Contact Jason.

JoeNoBody
02-15-2011, 11:24 AM
The reason is after everything is said and done and now that you have your guns back, the chances of them charging you with resisting arrest is suspect for numerous reasons.

First off, charging someone in the middle of a civil rights suit agaisnt same department is quite suspect. It is the County's State Attorney that files charges, not the PD itself.

Contact Jason.

I did email Jason. I'm sure he'll recall our first conversations. Yes, I agree I would not likely be charged with any crimes, now that all of my property has been returned.

Stormfeather
02-15-2011, 12:18 PM
Let us know if you contact and go forward with a suit, would love to hear the results of this!

JimSar
02-15-2011, 5:49 PM
If you're not going to sue - Then ask to have this thread deleted...

I'm new here, so pardon my ignorance. I've been following this thread, I find it interesting, and I do root for the underdog. What's the logic behind this request to have this thread deleted if Joe won't sue?

locosway
02-15-2011, 5:53 PM
Another reason Hunter should have never run for Sheriff.

JoeNoBody
02-16-2011, 4:52 PM
Craig Hunter got wiped out in the election, but that's a topic for another post.

I did not vote for Sandra Hutchins. She says she's pro-2nd A.

Funny how the first thing she did after taking the job was to recall every CCW in Orange County!

locosway
02-16-2011, 6:53 PM
Craig Hunter got wiped out in the election, but that's a topic for another post.

I did not vote for Sandra Hutchins. She says she's pro-2nd A.

Funny how the first thing she did after taking the job was to recall every CCW in Orange County!

Hunter basically runs APD, and he could change the departments stance on 2A issues if he was so inclined.

Hutchens did not revoke all CCW's, but did revoke a lot of them.

JoeNoBody
03-04-2011, 5:48 PM
This is the end of the story.

Many of you wanted me to contact Jason Davis. I did so. Jason is very helpful and professional. Jason did not take my case. He concluded that my experience is more a 4th Amendment case, than a 2nd Amendment. Jason and his firm are 2nd A. He suggested I look for a 4A firm to represent me. As of this post I have yet to find a firm that will help me, being as I have little or no money.

To all of you that read this post to the end, I hope you will be more empowered. I had been a model, law abiding citizen, all of my life, until a legal, prescription drug took hold of me and turned me into a monster. I can only thank God and the Founding Fathers for the return of all my firearms. This was a horrible ride I hope none of you ever have to experience.

Best Regards
Joe Nobody
Anaheim CA
Home of the "Happiest Place in the World".

Kid Stanislaus
03-04-2011, 8:23 PM
Such is life.