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View Full Version : Big5 charges DROS on C&R


Nobody077
12-30-2010, 1:25 PM
So today during my lunch hour I stopped at the local Big5 near my work and found a very clean 91/30 with matching numbers it was a 42 Tulla and for $99 I figured it would look nice in my safe. So I tell the manager I would take it and handed her my 03 C&R, then I got the "What is this?" and I had that feeling that I would not be taking the rifle with me. So I explained the license and she left to call corporate offices, about 45min later she said we were good and she was doing the paper work, I was thinking wow great. Then she started asking me the normal DROS info, I figured it was for there paperwork no big deal. Then she said I can take the gun with me, never asked for a safe model or purchase of a gun lock, but I needed to pay for the DROS fees? She then showed me a Big5 paper she printed from the corporate site stating no 10 day wait but DROS must be filled out and $25 charged. Whats the point for a DROS without a 10 day wait? and I dont need one with my license for a 91/30. I knew Big5 was a long shot but hay.... wont waste my time next time and its a shame almost payed the money for the rifle it was that nice but diffident because they need to learn the laws

Scratch705
12-30-2010, 1:30 PM
C&R's bought from FFL's always have to go through DROS, at least in CA as far as i know.

Fate
12-30-2010, 1:37 PM
...they need to learn the laws

So do you. Buying from a local CA FFL = you need a DROS (Dealer Record Of Sale).

Nobody077
12-30-2010, 1:48 PM
Ok I usually purchase my C&R rifles online so have never payed any fees, I have also purchased one from a local firearms only shop and filled out the paperwork but was not charged the $25, that is the reason for the confusion

Thanks for the info, I will just keep purchasing online to skip the fees, I dont mind the paperwork just think its crazy to add all the cost to a $99 rifle.

hybridatsun350
12-30-2010, 2:51 PM
FFL01's have to charge DROS on all firearms they sell. Also, just having an FFL03 does not allow to just take the gun with you. In California, you need an FFL03 and a Certificate of Eligibility (COE).

pingpong
12-30-2010, 3:06 PM
I've never had the inkling to buy one at Big5. Online is usually better quality, cheaper, you don't need to buy a lock or have a safe affidavit, and given the 10 day gun-jail you end up getting it faster, too. If I end up getting one I don't like, then oh well, sell it at cost.

ke6guj
12-30-2010, 3:31 PM
I didn't hear you mention that you had a COE. you have to have BOTH a C&R FFL and a COE to be exempt from the 10-day wait, but the PC still requires that you DROS it.12078(t)(t)(1) The waiting period described in Sections 12071 or 12072 shall not apply to the sale, delivery, loan, or transfer of a firearm that is a curio or relic, as defined in Section 478.11 of Title 27 of the Code of Federal Regulations, or its successor, by a dealer to a person who is licensed as a collector pursuant to Chapter 44 (commencing with Section 921) of Title 18 of the United States Code and the regulations issued pursuant thereto who has a current certificate of eligibility issued to him or her by the Department of Justice pursuant to Section 12071. On the date that the delivery, sale, or transfer is made, the dealer delivering the firearm shall transmit to the Department of Justice an electronic or telephonic report of the transaction as is indicated in subdivision (b) or (c) of Section 12077.

it has been argued by some that you shouldn't need to fill out a 4473 (since you have an 03FFL), but that you would still need to do the state DROS paperwork.

OHOD
12-30-2010, 5:49 PM
Yet another reason for an 03 Flow Chart

I Swan
12-30-2010, 6:04 PM
I thought this was common sense.

Anchors
12-30-2010, 6:18 PM
Lol.
Yeah, even if you are exempt from the wait (with COE) you still have to DROS it.
Love CA and their illegal taxes. Oh wait, I mean "fees".

IrishPirate
12-30-2010, 6:25 PM
Thanks for the info, I will just keep purchasing online to skip the fees, I dont mind the paperwork just think its crazy to add all the cost to a $99 rifle.

$115 is too much for a mosin? ummmmm.......not for me. I like to hold guns before i buy them, especially C&R since quality is hard to guarantee. Big 5 will let you look at all their rifles so you can choose the one you want...that's worth $115 to me considering the normal price is more than that anyways. to each their own....

OHOD
12-30-2010, 6:37 PM
$115 is too much for a mosin? ummmmm.......not for me. I like to hold guns before i buy them, especially C&R since quality is hard to guarantee. Big 5 will let you look at all their rifles so you can choose the one you want...that's worth $115 to me considering the normal price is more than that anyways. to each their own....

And that is a very good point. Big 5 is really good about letting you look at all the C&R's they got. Last time I was there, I looked at all the C&R rifles on the rack and said that I wasn't interested in what he had.

When I started jabbering about laminated stocks and arsenal markings, he chimed up and said, "Our truck delivers every Thursday, your welcome to check them out".
I pass Big 5 on the way home from work.
It's like they built the store just to toy with me.

TRICKSTER
12-30-2010, 8:09 PM
Yet another reason to learn what the law allows before you try and buy a C&R.
Unfortunately, the usual response from a business that has problems with people erroneously telling them exemptions to a law is to stop allowing any exemptions.

ke6guj
12-30-2010, 8:13 PM
Yet another reason to learn what the law allows before you try and buy a C&R.
Unfortunately, the usual response from a business that has problems with people erroneously telling them exemptions to a law is to stop allowing any exemptions.

yup, if the OP didn't have his COE and he talked the clerk into selling him a rifle and skipped the 10-day wait, upon the next CADOJ audit, that big5 might pick up a violation. And it might be easier for Big5 to just decide NO EXEMPTIONS to the 10-day wait for anyone, even if they have an 03+COE.

Cokebottle
12-30-2010, 8:20 PM
Yet another reason for an 03 Flow Chart
Someone posted it a couple of days ago...

Buy Bigger Safe
vvv
Get COE
vvv
Make copies of 03 and COE and send them to everyone in the known universe, keep the unsigned originals in the big safe
vvv
Plan a road trip to J&G Sales in Arizona
vvv
Buy an even bigger safe

;)

TRICKSTER
12-30-2010, 8:39 PM
Yet another reason for an 03 Flow Chart

It's not that difficult. The problem seems to be that some people want the benefits of having a 03FFL, but don't want to take the time to learn the responsibilities that come with it. Everything you need to know has been posted here numerous times. Between CG and the ATF website, you should be able to find everything you need to know.

ke6guj
12-30-2010, 8:45 PM
It's not that difficult. The problem seems to be that some people want the benefits of having a 03FFL, but don't want to take the time to learn the responsibilities that come with it.thats part of the reason I won't do an 03FFL flowchart. YOu need to KNOW all the ins-and-outs of having an 03, and chopping it down so it fits in a flowchart makes it too easy. Hell, even after I helped make the handgun and shotgun AW charts, we still get people too lazy to run the firearm through the flowchart, and just want us to tell them if it is legal or not.

OHOD
12-30-2010, 9:29 PM
It's not that difficult. The problem seems to be that some people want the benefits of having a 03FFL, but don't want to take the time to learn the responsibilities that come with it. Everything you need to know has been posted here numerous times. Between CG and the ATF website, you should be able to find everything you need to know.

I guess to a noob like me, it does seem a little bit complicated. I think over time, I'll get the hang of it.
I thank all of you guys for answering many of my stupid questions.

OHOD
12-30-2010, 9:31 PM
thats part of the reason I won't do an 03FFL flowchart. YOu need to KNOW all the ins-and-outs of having an 03, and chopping it down so it fits in a flowchart makes it too easy. Hell, even after I helped make the handgun and shotgun AW charts, we still get people too lazy to run the firearm through the flowchart, and just want us to tell them if it is legal or not.

Good point.
There is some sweat equity and joy in learning about all the particulars.
I guess that comes with the territory.
I say no to an 03 flowsheet.

Must be an unwritten C&R Code of ethics or something. :D

NYY
12-30-2010, 10:27 PM
?? Whatever happened to the rule of if the C&R is older than 50 years, then no need for a 10 day wait......... Long guns over 50 years old are exempt. In California, this is the definition of C&R. If you want to buy or sell a long gun over 50 years old, and you are not otherwise prohibited from possessing a firearm, you can do so with a handshake. OR does this only work if its between 2 residents, not from a dealer...?

ke6guj
12-30-2010, 10:32 PM
?? Whatever happened to the rule of if the C&R is older than 50 years, then no need for a 10 day wait.........I KNOW thats a fact

its only a fact, now, if that 50+ year-old C&R is a long gun, and being sold by person who is not a dealer.

NYY
12-30-2010, 10:44 PM
its only a fact, now, if that 50+ year-old C&R is a long gun, and being sold by person who is not a dealer.

ahh i see

TRICKSTER
12-31-2010, 3:34 PM
I guess to a noob like me, it does seem a little bit complicated. I think over time, I'll get the hang of it.
I thank all of you guys for answering many of my stupid questions.

It is best if you take the time to do the research and learn for yourself.
Posting questions here is fine and the answers should point you in the right direction, but unless they can be backed up, don't take them as gospel. There are way to many people here, and on other forums, that post erroneous answers to questions because they just pass on the bad info that someone else gave them and don't do any research. Always verify the answers you receive on a forum by checking the ATF website and appropriate CA Penal Codes. Remember, it's your 03 FFL and ultimately, you are responsible if you violate the law. If you get audited, stating you were following what you were told on a forum will not help you.

I have found these links to be quite helpful.

http://www.atf.gov/publications/firearms/curios-relics/
http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/curios-relics.html
http://www.atf.gov/press/releases/2001/01/011801-openletter-ffl-collectors-curio-relics.html
http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/firearms-technology.html#curio-relic-qualification
http://ag.ca.gov/firearms/infobuls/2008-BOF-01.pdf
http://www.ag.ca.gov/firearms/cflcfaqs.php

Plus Empire Arms has this quick explanation of CA C&R regs.
https://www.empirearms.com/cal-ffl.htm

NYY
12-31-2010, 5:54 PM
just bought my Mosin Today at Big5. The Clerks knew what the correct protocol was...but i did mention, "what if i had my 03FFL" and he looked at me like i just said im Saddam Hussein and I am taking over the world... So some people who work there might not know all the ins and outs, but their a fun little group.

mdouglas1980
12-31-2010, 6:00 PM
Yet another reason for an 03 Flow Chart

+1!!

^^^ I like this idea

Cokebottle
12-31-2010, 6:30 PM
+1!!

^^^ I like this idea
Really no need for a flowchart.
The C&R laws are not all that complex, and the information needed is in the packet that all C&R holders receive from the BATFE within a couple of weeks of getting their C&R.

For non C&R holders, the laws are even simpler and it would be the shortest flowchart in history.

Res
12-31-2010, 7:22 PM
Hey guys, I've had my 03 for years and have bought plenty of guns. Whats this "bound book" everyone is talking about :conehead:

EOD Guy
12-31-2010, 7:39 PM
?? Whatever happened to the rule of if the C&R is older than 50 years, then no need for a 10 day wait......... Long guns over 50 years old are exempt. In California, this is the definition of C&R. If you want to buy or sell a long gun over 50 years old, and you are not otherwise prohibited from possessing a firearm, you can do so with a handshake. OR does this only work if its between 2 residents, not from a dealer...?

That's right, only not from a dealer. You can blame the Feds for that. The Brady bill requires background checks for all dealer sales, with a few exceptions. Before that, California dealers could sell 50 year old C&R rifles and shotguns without background check or waiting period.

It's Federal law thats to blame, not California law.

NYY
12-31-2010, 7:48 PM
AH, for once California gets a break and is not to blame for a gun law haha

Anchors
12-31-2010, 11:42 PM
That's right, only not from a dealer. You can blame the Feds for that. The Brady bill requires background checks for all dealer sales, with a few exceptions. Before that, California dealers could sell 50 year old C&R rifles and shotguns without background check or waiting period.

It's Federal law thats to blame, not California law.

I still blame CA for the waiting period.
But I will blame the Feds for the Brady Bill.

Interloper
01-01-2011, 1:17 PM
I actually had the same experience at a Big-5 in Nevada. The manager told me flat out that they couldn't sell to me as a Californian 03FFL or not. She even called the head office to confirm this. :confused:
I asked her how come I could go online and buy from a Nevada dealer and have it shipped to my house but I couldn't buy in person. Obviously she had no answer.
Hey guys, I've had my 03 for years and have bought plenty of guns. Whats this "bound book" everyone is talking about :conehead:

You best be trollin, son! :troll:

CSACANNONEER
01-01-2011, 1:20 PM
Hey guys, I've had my 03 for years and have bought plenty of guns. Whats this "bound book" everyone is talking about :conehead:

Wow.

paul0660
01-01-2011, 1:37 PM
Whats this "bound book" everyone is talking about

It's what you throw away when you let your license lapse, briefly, before reapplying.

EOD Guy
01-01-2011, 4:41 PM
I still blame CA for the waiting period.
But I will blame the Feds for the Brady Bill.

True.

EuReekCA
01-01-2011, 5:04 PM
$115 is too much for a mosin? ummmmm.......not for me. I like to hold guns before i buy them, especially C&R since quality is hard to guarantee. Big 5 will let you look at all their rifles so you can choose the one you want...that's worth $115 to me considering the normal price is more than that anyways. to each their own....

I don't have my C&R yet, but I couldn't pass up paying just shy of $140 total for a 1938 Tula with all matching #s, and smooth mechanicals.. I took a look at all 5 they had in store, and that one whispered "buy me!" :D I'll be back at my local Big5, still looking for an pre-war Tula ex-sniper ;)

Double G
01-01-2011, 7:57 PM
I have bought many rifles from ffl01 dealers and never paid a DROS. With the 03 you are exempt from the dros, all you need is your COE and C&R copy and you are good to go.

If you only have your 03 and buying from a dealer just pay the DROS and wait for your new purchase, while you are waiting get your COE, it will pay for itself in the long run.

Cokebottle
01-01-2011, 8:09 PM
I have bought many rifles from ffl01 dealers and never paid a DROS. With the 03 you are exempt from the dros, all you need is your COE and C&R copy and you are good to go.

If you only have your 03 and buying from a dealer just pay the DROS and wait for your new purchase, while you are waiting get your COE, it will pay for itself in the long run.
Nobody is exempt from DROS when buying from an 01/02/07.

With an 03 and COE, you are exempt from the 10 day waiting period, but you are not exempt from DROS.

finloq
01-02-2011, 1:47 AM
My first Big5 C&R purchase (before I had my FFL03) was a nice little Mosin M38. The clerk was great, pulled out all 3 that they had for me to choose, professionally filled out the paperwork, etc. The day (11) I arrived to pick up my carbine, it turns out that the clerk that DROS'd me, put down the wrong serial number on the paperwork (transposed two numbers or left one out, I can't remember).
Sometimes, your Big5 experience comes down to how much training do these kids get during their two hour orientation for their $9/hour jobs.

CSACANNONEER
01-02-2011, 7:21 AM
My first Big5 C&R purchase (before I had my FFL03) was a nice little Mosin M38. The clerk was great, pulled out all 3 that they had for me to choose, professionally filled out the paperwork, etc. The day (11) I arrived to pick up my carbine, it turns out that the clerk that DROS'd me, put down the wrong serial number on the paperwork (transposed two numbers or left one out, I can't remember).
Sometimes, your Big5 experience comes down to how much training do these kids get during their two hour orientation for their $9/hour jobs.

So? Did they still have the rifle you picked out? Did you get it that day? AFAIK, there is no reason to redo the DROS on a long gun if this happens.

finloq
01-02-2011, 7:25 AM
So? Did they still have the rifle you picked out? Did you get it that day? AFAIK, there is no reason to redo the DROS on a long gun if this happens.

Yeah, the carbine was still there, the number that was on the paperwork did not represent any gun that they had at all. they had basically DROS'd me for a fantasy gun. I got to wait around for about 35 minutes while the clerks puzzled their way into confusion on this one. Then a manager came out and did a refund/rebill (because they had keyed in the wrong serial number on their register and thus my receipt as well) and all was well.

Double G
01-02-2011, 8:16 AM
Nobody is exempt from DROS when buying from an 01/02/07.

With an 03 and COE, you are exempt from the 10 day waiting period, but you are not exempt from DROS.

If you are correct, there are many gun stores in California that are in violation, I have the rifles to prove it. It's been a while since I looked it up however as I recall C&R holders are exempt from the Brady law. If you search the internet you "may" find the section.

I don't know the 01 laws however I was told by every one I purchased from no DROS. If you find it, post it, I'm not to computer savvy.

Cokebottle
01-02-2011, 8:34 AM
If you are correct, there are many gun stores in California that are in violation, I have the rifles to prove it. It's been a while since I looked it up however as I recall C&R holders are exempt from the Brady law. If you search the internet you "may" find the section.

I don't know the 01 laws however I was told by every one I purchased from no DROS. If you find it, post it, I'm not to computer savvy.
There is a difference between "no DROS" and "No 10 day wait".
Even cops aren't exempt from DROS.

03FFL only = Exempt from Federal requirements to go through an 01FFL to transfer C&R guns interstate. Per California state law, handguns still must be transferred through an 01 unless physically imported by the C&R holder.

03FFL + COE = Exempt from 10 day waiting period for all C&R firearms. Exempt from the 1-every-30 day handgun purchase limitation. These are both State laws, not Federal.

That is all we are exempt from. DROS is Dealer Record Of Sale. When a dealer sells a gun from his inventory, he must complete the DROS paperwork and collect the $25.


Not only are we not exempt from DROS (which also registers handguns), but even though we can legally drive to AZ and purchase C&R long guns and handguns, we must still register (and pay $10) the handguns upon our return to California.


Short story, the 03FFL itself does not do a single thing for a person not participating in interstate transfers.
The 03+COE eliminates the 10 day wait.

That's all. The only DROS exemption is for person to person transfers of C&R long guns. Those are cash and carry between private parties, but if in gun shop inventory, they once again require DROS.

Double G
01-02-2011, 8:58 AM
There is a difference between "no DROS" and "No 10 day wait".
Even cops aren't exempt from DROS.

03FFL only = Exempt from Federal requirements to go through an 01FFL to transfer C&R guns interstate. Per California state law, handguns still must be transferred through an 01 unless physically imported by the C&R holder.

03FFL + COE = Exempt from 10 day waiting period for all C&R firearms. Exempt from the 1-every-30 day handgun purchase limitation. These are both State laws, not Federal.

That is all we are exempt from. DROS is Dealer Record Of Sale. When a dealer sells a gun from his inventory, he must complete the DROS paperwork and collect the $25.


Not only are we not exempt from DROS (which also registers handguns), but even though we can legally drive to AZ and purchase C&R long guns and handguns, we must still register (and pay $10) the handguns upon our return to California.


Short story, the 03FFL itself does not do a single thing for a person not participating in interstate transfers.
The 03+COE eliminates the 10 day wait.

That's all. The only DROS exemption is for person to person transfers of C&R long guns. Those are cash and carry between private parties, but if in gun shop inventory, they once again require DROS.

I must be the lucky one, well, not paying the DROS has saved me hundreds of dollars. I just would have never thought every one of the dealers would be wrong.

Also, it's $19 to the DOJ for out of state handguns, I have done that many times also.