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View Full Version : Gun Store tell me AR pistols, AK pistols, Frames illegal?


AaronHorrocks
12-29-2010, 9:29 PM
I am very well versed in the laws regarding rifles, and their manufacture, however not so much on handguns.
Something that I want to do is build a vz61. I was unsure, but under the impression that I could order a frame, get it sent to an FFL here, DROS it as a handgun, and then build it.
I went to the local gun store with paperwork about the vz61 frame offered by Czechpoint. The guy behind the counter handed me off to the elder "expert".


To boil down a 15 minute conversation, here's the basics:

He told me that it was illegal because it wasn't on the Safe Handgun Roster.

I countered with, "It's a frame, not a handgun. I can build it into a rifle, or even build it into a pistol and self-register." He said that too was illegal.

I countered again with "Well, people are building their own AK pistols, so you probably think that's illegal too?" He said that too was illegal.

I countered again with the AR pistol, how people are registering lowers as pistols, and that there are even receivers being marked and sold as pistols to be built up into pistols. He said that too was illegal.


All of this strikes me as odd, because a store that was selling a CA-legal Barret .416, you'd think would be well versed on all the laws...

So here are the two real questions I have leaving that store:
-Can I legally get a vz61 frame and register is? What's the problem?
-I guess when I've helped people to manufacture an AK pistol, I've been helping them commit a crime?

FatalKitty
12-29-2010, 9:32 PM
not every counter person at every gun store can know every gun law.

Find the PC that makes it legal, some examples, and go back there with a smile and a helpful attitude and educate another gun lover one all the cool ways we can say "**** you" to the man.

:)

MontClaire
12-29-2010, 9:33 PM
did you walk in the store and asked to see a "gat" and used words like " dawg", "hella good and s***t!" yo, nahh, ahm ahm....if not then tell them you checked the FFL and they are not on it. tell them you think they operate an illegal storefront and you'd be reporting them to BATF. walk away.......satisfied....

hoffmang
12-29-2010, 9:41 PM
The pistol exceptions are more complex than standard OLL rifles.

If done correctly, they are perfectly legal. However, it is quite difficult for an FFL to transfer a pistol frame as they aren't on the roster (even though it's allowed by law it's not allowed by the DROS software and is an underground regulation.)

-Gene

wildhawker
12-29-2010, 9:41 PM
For more information, search "NeRF".

The FFL is correct that you cannot purchase a non-Rostered handgun. However, a frame can be purchased as a "receiver" Federally, though your only option in California (currently) is to DROS as a long gun. This presents the same issues as AR and AK-style pistols using lg-DROSed frames for pistol builds. We recommend people do not build lg-DROSed frames into pistols at this time due to the unclear legal disposition of the frame after it is considered a "long gun" via the DROS process.

AaronHorrocks
12-30-2010, 7:26 AM
not every counter person at every gun store can know every gun law.

As I pointed out, the first person behind the counter that I talked to handed me off to thier "expert".

did you walk in the store and asked to see a "gat" and used words like " dawg", "hella good and s***t!" yo, nahh, ahm ahm....if not then tell them you checked the FFL and they are not on it. tell them you think they operate an illegal storefront and you'd be reporting them to BATF. walk away.......satisfied....

I don't talk like that, and I'm also not going to follow your advice.

Hoffman, thanks for the facts.

For more information, search "NeRF".

The FFL is correct that you cannot purchase a non-Rostered handgun. However, a frame can be purchased as a "receiver" Federally, though your only option in California (currently) is to DROS as a long gun. This presents the same issues as AR and AK-style pistols using lg-DROSed frames for pistol builds. We recommend people do not build lg-DROSed frames into pistols at this time due to the unclear legal disposition of the frame after it is considered a "long gun" via the DROS process.

I've already been reading everything I can about "NeRF"s here and other places. All it does is give a few bits of facts, and a lot of banter from people.
At NO POINT IN TIME did I approach this as getting a non-roster handgun. The paperwork I brought in was about the frame (even photographed) and the questioned that I asked was even about "transfering a frame".

BTW I asked about "manufacturing my own pistol frame/receiver", which I was also told was illegal. :confused:

devilinblack
12-30-2010, 9:04 AM
did you walk in the store and asked to see a "gat" and used words like " dawg", "hella good and s***t!" yo, nahh, ahm ahm....if not then tell them you checked the FFL and they are not on it. tell them you think they operate an illegal storefront and you'd be reporting them to BATF. walk away.......satisfied....


Wow, that was helpful!

Decoligny
12-30-2010, 9:07 AM
not every counter person at every gun store can know every gun law.

Find the PC that makes it legal, some examples, and go back there with a smile and a helpful attitude and educate another gun lover one all the cool ways we can say "**** you" to the man.

:)

PC doesn't make anything legal. PC makes things illegal. If you compile all the PCs that relate to the issue and none of them make it illegal, then it is legal.

franklinarmory
12-30-2010, 10:30 AM
Last I checked, the state won't allow pistol frames to be sold in Ca due to the "safe handgun" law. However, it would seem to be a contestable stance since you have a potentially legal way to build out the pistol. (e.g. exempted as a single shot under 12133 PC.) Since the only way to DROS an AR frame (currently) is as a long gun, the feds jump in and consider it a rifle frame and will not allow it to be built as a pistol.

I have been telling our dealers that there are only two legal ways for a Californian to get an AR Pistol. 1) They can finish off an 80% lower on their own. Or 2) they can purchase an AR pistol manufactured by an 07/FFL that was created as an exempted single shot such as our SE-SSP. Of course, someone could move in from out of state with an AR Pistol, or they could inherit one, but is there a run of the mill way for Californians to procure an AR or AK pistol? :confused:

wildhawker
12-30-2010, 10:32 AM
Not really. The other option is simply not an option due to the legal ambiguity and risk.

The OP described a NeRF, though he may nit have been aware of that prior to thus time.

Ford8N
12-30-2010, 10:42 AM
BTW I asked about "manufacturing my own pistol frame/receiver", which I was also told was illegal. :confused:

You can bend your own AK flat, build as a single shot then convert to a ten shot semi w/ BB.


The vz61 frame looks like a lot of machining but if you had access to machines it could be done.

hoffmang
12-30-2010, 10:46 AM
You can bend your own AK flat, build as a single shot then convert to a ten shot semi w/ BB.


The vz61 frame looks like a lot of machining but if you had access to machines it could be done.

You can manufacture your own firearms as long as they are not for sale. However, you do need to be mindful of the Handgun Roster laws and use an exemption to complete the manufacture. Once you complete the manufacture of a single shot dimensionally compliant handgun, you can always later convert it back to fully semiautomatic. Don't forget to obey the AW laws through the process however (BB if magazine well is not in the pistol grip for example.)

-Gene

PolishMike
12-30-2010, 10:49 AM
Although they probably did not explain it right they are technically correct at the moment.

Until we can DROS a receiver/frame as a Receiver/Frame and not a long gun there is no good way to do it.

Your best option is to find a cop local to you who no longer wants his vz61 frame.

Seesm
12-30-2010, 11:01 AM
What about the 80% percent pistol I want to build today at my shop? :P
Legally we CAN do THAT... Btw Aaron it's been awhile since I have seen you.. Hope your good.

teg767
12-30-2010, 11:44 AM
Regarding the VZ61 skorpion frame, try calling Jeff from PRK Arms down in Fresno, he might be able to help you with your inquiry on the registered "frame" issue. They even have this thread posted long time ago and was able to procure one for their store demo as seen on the thread link. Hope it helps.

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=241733

Falstaff
12-30-2010, 11:53 AM
As I pointed out, the first person behind the counter that I talked to handed me off to thier "expert".



I don't talk like that, and I'm also not going to follow your advice.

Hoffman, thanks for the facts.



I've already been reading everything I can about "NeRF"s here and other places. All it does is give a few bits of facts, and a lot of banter from people.
At NO POINT IN TIME did I approach this as getting a non-roster handgun. The paperwork I brought in was about the frame (even photographed) and the questioned that I asked was even about "transfering a frame".

BTW I asked about "manufacturing my own pistol frame/receiver", which I was also told was illegal. :confused:

Making your own frames for pistols OR rifles is legal. (As long as it's done by you for you without the intent to re-sell).
DROS'ing a an AR or AK type pistol receiver only is not legal unless your're roster exempt.
However, educated FFL's will DROS you a complete AK or AR type pistol configured as a single shot. (there is no law that says it's illegal to subsequently convert back to semi auto 10 shot)

AaronHorrocks
12-30-2010, 12:35 PM
The OP described a NeRF, though he may nit have been aware of that prior to thus time.

I know what a NeRF is, but it doesn't exactly help if I still can't buy it.
BTW, I have a name, and many titles... but none of them is "OP".


You can bend your own AK flat, build as a single shot then convert to a ten shot semi w/ BB.

The vz61 frame looks like a lot of machining but if you had access to machines it could be done.

Why do I have to build it as a simgleshot first? Can you cite the law?

I already have a demilled F/A vz61 frame... which doesn't help even if I had a machine shop. I could make a S/A of my own design, but I'd need an ATF approval. To build my own receiver I would need to get my hands on a S/A receiver in order to copy it anyhow, so we're back to square one.

You can manufacture your own firearms as long as they are not for sale. However, you do need to be mindful of the Handgun Roster laws and use an exemption to complete the manufacture. Once you complete the manufacture of a single shot dimensionally compliant handgun, you can always later convert it back to fully semiautomatic. Don't forget to obey the AW laws through the process however (BB if magazine well is not in the pistol grip for example.)

I've been manufacturing my own rifles for years, and I'm well aware of state and federal laws on rifles. Like my first post here mentioned, I'm not up on pistol laws.

What are the dimentional requirements? I've seen people post "10.5" inches, but I've never seen the text of the law. It seems to me that most handguns are under 10.5".

Although they probably did not explain it right they are technically correct at the moment.

I compressed the entire story... If you were there in person, you'd know it was FUD.

Btw Aaron it's been awhile since I have seen you..

ACTIVE DUTY! Some injuries... And a calguns ban for some more bogus fluff. Things have been good and bad, but at least I'm walking again. And back in California! :D

Turo
12-30-2010, 12:43 PM
BTW, I have a name, and many titles... but none of them is "OP".


OP is an abbreviation for "Original Poster" aka the person who started the thread, which you are.

AaronHorrocks
12-30-2010, 12:52 PM
I know what it is. I don't have to like it.

And don't call me "Sir", either. I'm enlisted. And I'm not that old.

Matt C
12-30-2010, 1:41 PM
Although they probably did not explain it right they are technically correct at the moment.

Actually they explained it fine. Just read "illegal" as too legally risky for our business. In fact I don't know of ANY FFL doing NeRF transfers.

stix213
12-30-2010, 1:48 PM
Why do I have to build it as a simgleshot first? Can you cite the law?


So you can avoid "imprisonment in a county jail not exceeding one year" per PC 12125


PC 12125
(a)Commencing January 1, 2001, any person in this state who manufactures or causes to be manufactured, imports into the state for sale, keeps for sale, offers or exposes for sale, gives, or lends any unsafe handgun shall be punished by imprisonment in a county jail not exceeding one year.
...


PC 12126 defines the term "unsafe handgun" so when you manufacture a handgun it can't meet the definition of anything listed there obviously.

I was going to step you through it all more, but you seem to be more interested in arguing with the people trying to help you than actually getting the information. You should be able to figure out the rest from there. good luck

Matt C
12-30-2010, 1:56 PM
PC 12126 defines the term "unsafe handgun" so when you manufacture a handgun it can't meet the definition of anything listed there obviously.

Actually the consensus seems to be that you are not manufacturing at all when building these handguns for your own use, otherwise it WOULD be illegal. Not that I agree, but hopefully Pena will nullify all that crap anyway.

AaronHorrocks
12-30-2010, 1:59 PM
stix213,

Thanks for that information. That's the stuff I'm looking for.

BTW, the people you think I'm "arguing with" have not posted anything close to valuable information as of yet. And in fact, I had to restate things I've already mentioned in the first post, when replying to them which makes me believe they didn't even bother reading it in it's entirety. Being said, they're just cluttering up my thread, and are now degrading it down to the level of polite and sophisticated insults. It's not welcome. People have been banned for much less around here.

stix213
12-30-2010, 2:01 PM
Actually the consensus seems to be that you are not manufacturing at all when building these handguns for your own use, otherwise it WOULD be illegal. Not that I agree, but hopefully Pena will nullify all that crap anyway.

Interesting, I may have understood the way the exemption works incorrectly then.

AaronHorrocks
12-30-2010, 2:06 PM
Well, what's the context of "manufacturing" in that PC?

Is it "in the business of"?

Does making one for personal use qualify as manufacturing? I thought that it did.

Matt C
12-30-2010, 2:19 PM
Well, what's the context of "manufacturing" in that PC?

Is it "in the business of"?

Does making one for personal use qualify as manufacturing? I thought that it did.

So did I. I think the relevent discussion between Gene and myself is somewhere in the NRF thread.

franklinarmory
12-30-2010, 3:03 PM
Actually the consensus seems to be that you are not manufacturing at all when building these handguns for your own use, otherwise it WOULD be illegal. Not that I agree, but hopefully Pena will nullify all that crap anyway.

To be clear... as far as I am aware and as far as has been noted herein, an individual cannot buy a pistol frame and build or manufacture a pistol. The individual must either buy a complete AR pistol or build one up from an 80% frame.

Manufacturing is generally defined as manufacturing for resale. This differs from building something for your personal use or building up a firearm that is owned by someone else. In other words, a gunsmith can build a customer's bag-o-parts; however, a gunsmith can't pre-build 5 rifles in hopes that a customer will come through the door. ...That's manufacturing. Ca PC is under 12085 and 12086.

Just today the ATF published a notice stating that it is not necessary to have an 07FFL if you are simply anodizing, engraving, or performing a similar task en mass. However, an 01FFL license would still be required because it is a firearm. This will help out the coaters platers, etc. but won't help out the gunsmith.

Argonaut
12-30-2010, 3:28 PM
Just wait for our new AG, Kamala Harris. She will reinterpret as many laws to restrict gun ownership as possible. It won't take long, Grey areas will be decided against us.

ke6guj
12-30-2010, 4:01 PM
Actually the consensus seems to be that you are not manufacturing at all when building these handguns for your own use, otherwise it WOULD be illegal. Not that I agree, but hopefully Pena will nullify all that crap anyway.


Well, what's the context of "manufacturing" in that PC?

Is it "in the business of"?

Does making one for personal use qualify as manufacturing? I thought that it did.

If you want to argue that it is only considered "manufacturing" if it were being done for business sale, then why can't manufacture as many large-cap mags as we want, for personal use.

12020. (a) Any person in this state who does any of the following is punishable by imprisonment in a county jail not exceeding one year or in the state prison:
(2) Commencing January 1, 2000, manufactures or causes to be manufactured, imports into the state, keeps for sale, or offers or exposes for sale, or who gives, or lends, any large-capacity magazine.
the wording of 12125(a) and 12020(a)(2) are almost identical, so if it is ok to build an unsafe handgun, why can't you build a large-cap mag?

Matt C
12-30-2010, 7:30 PM
If you want to argue that it is only considered "manufacturing" if it were being done for business sale, then why can't manufacture as many large-cap mags as we want, for personal use.


the wording of 12125(a) and 12020(a)(2) are almost identical, so if it is ok to build an unsafe handgun, why can't you build a large-cap mag?

Ask Gene.

hoffmang
12-30-2010, 8:18 PM
Ask Gene.

I'm pretty sure it was you who was taking the "it's not manufacturing position." Building an AK pistol is manufacturing and thus it has to be a dimensionally compliant single shot as single shot pistols are not unsafe handguns by definition.

-Gene

Matt C
12-30-2010, 10:25 PM
I'm pretty sure it was you who was taking the "it's not manufacturing position." Building an AK pistol is manufacturing and thus it has to be a dimensionally compliant single shot as single shot pistols are not unsafe handguns by definition.

-Gene

REALLY? I'm pretty sure you are wrong. Then again, I'm the "dense" one. ;)

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showpost.php?p=1762974&postcount=399

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showpost.php?p=1761778&postcount=323

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showpost.php?p=1761812&postcount=324

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showpost.php?p=1762069&postcount=336

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showpost.php?p=1762069&postcount=336

My favorite quote from that thread, from 2008"

BOTTOM LINE:I think this is potentially a very winnable case at the appeals court level (for vagueness if nothing else), though I have no doubt you would have to take it at least that far eventually. The real question is, with so many legal avenues towards the complete destruction of the roster, why waste what would probably end up being the same amount of time and money on this case for a "workaround"?


Hmmm, where are we on that NRF thing now again?

hoffmang
12-30-2010, 10:33 PM
REALLY? I'm pretty sure you are wrong. Then again, I'm the "dense" one. ;)


Ah yes. You're argument that further assembly is also manufacture. I forgot that one as you attempting to disagree with the NRF concept.

You'll note that ATF added evidence against you today saying that doing work on parts and most assembly on serialized frames isn't manufacturing.

The debate in this thread is about creation of a serializeable (serial number is optional here due to federal law) single shot pistol. The second step of conversion from single shot to not single shot is not manufacture. Because, if you're interpretation is correct then you commit a felony everytime you take the slide off a semiautomatic pistol to clean it and put it back on.

Keep being dense. :rolleyes:

-Gene

Matt C
12-30-2010, 10:50 PM
Ah yes. You're argument that further assembly is also manufacture. I forgot that one as you attempting to disagree with the NRF concept.

You'll note that ATF added evidence against you today saying that doing work on parts and most assembly on serialized frames isn't manufacturing.

The debate in this thread is about creation of a serializeable (serial number is optional here due to federal law) single shot pistol. The second step of conversion from single shot to not single shot is not manufacture. Because, if you're interpretation is correct then you commit a felony everytime you take the slide off a semiautomatic pistol to clean it and put it back on.

Keep being dense. :rolleyes:

-Gene

You'll have to forgive my denseness, god gave me looks but was no so generous with the brains, so bear with me here:

So there are two separate issues here. Aaron was talking about building on serialized vz61 frame, which you are saying is not manufacturing.

Ford8N then brings up the fact that you can manufacture a receiver, serialized or not, (we all agree this is manufacturing) and then "build" a roster exempt pistol.

Also according to you, there can be no "double manufacturing".

However once the serialized receiver (from an 80% for example) is done, it's manufactured, but you are saying it can still be manufactured (further?) into an illegal unsafe handgun right? I'll buy that. But then, if you theoretically build it into something exempt, then strip it right down again, then immediately build it into an unsafe handgun, that's ok because you cannot further manufacture it after it's already been built up once into something exempt?

That all seems quite shaky to me.

Hunter4life1990
12-30-2010, 11:16 PM
this law is strange to me because i cannot purchase a stripped receiver because i am not 21 because it is not a "long arm" but they turn around and tell anyone who buys a stripped receiver that it is drosd a long arm therefore you cannot make it into a pistol. Sooooo WTF? how does it work against us in both fronts usually its one orr the other. i would make a lil more sense to me if it was officially termed a long arm that way anyone 18 or older ould buy them but they are not so people in my age group cannot but people who can and want to make a pistol cant because it is a long gun? that doesnt make any ****ing sense

ke6guj
12-30-2010, 11:39 PM
this law is strange to me because i cannot purchase a stripped receiver because i am not 21 because it is not a "long arm" but they turn around and tell anyone who buys a stripped receiver that it is drosd a long arm therefore you cannot make it into a pistol. Sooooo WTF? how does it work against us in both fronts usually its one orr the other. i would make a lil more sense to me if it was officially termed a long arm that way anyone 18 or older ould buy them but they are not so people in my age group cannot but people who can and want to make a pistol cant because it is a long gun? that doesnt make any ****ing sense

it works out against you because of competing federal and state law.

Hunter4life1990
12-30-2010, 11:47 PM
But how can it be a long arm and not be a long arm at the same time?

ke6guj
12-30-2010, 11:49 PM
You'll have to forgive my denseness, god gave me looks but was no so generous with the brains, so bear with me here:

So there are two separate issues here. Aaron was talking about building on serialized vz61 frame, which you are saying is not manufacturing.

Ford8N then brings up the fact that you can manufacture a receiver, serialized or not, (we all agree this is manufacturing) and then "build" a roster exempt pistol.

Also according to you, there can be no "double manufacturing".

However once the serialized receiver (from an 80% for example) is done, it's manufactured, but you are saying it can still be manufactured (further?) into an illegal unsafe handgun right? I'll buy that. But then, if you theoretically build it into something exempt, then strip it right down again, then immediately build it into an unsafe handgun, that's ok because you cannot further manufacture it after it's already been built up once into something exempt?

That all seems quite shaky to me.I can bring up a "double manufacturing" handgun example. Group Industries made a ton of semi-auto "UZI" receivers (but didn't finish them out to 100% with all the parts welded to it) and they are considered manufactured firerams (they have GI's manufacturing info on them). GI went bankrupt and their inventory was auctioned off. If you want to buy one, it has to be 4473'd/DROSed because it is considered a firearm. Fast forward 10-20 years and Vector Arms bought some of that inventory and finished welding them up and then assembled them as pistols and rifles. When Vector did that, they had to mark their name, city, state onto them. So, if you see one of those receivers, it is marked with Group Industries on it and Vector Arms as well.

ke6guj
12-30-2010, 11:52 PM
But how can it be a long arm and not be a long arm at the same time?

because each controlling entity (feds and the state) can have conflicting laws and regulations, and it is just that way for now.

Hunter4life1990
12-30-2010, 11:57 PM
i gotcha ke6guj hopefully that stuff changes after i get back from BCT in georgia cuz ill still be 20 and would like to get myself a sweet graduation gift after i graduate from infantry scholl haha

hoffmang
12-31-2010, 12:09 AM
So there are two separate issues here. Aaron was talking about building on serialized vz61 frame, which you are saying is not manufacturing.
Commercially, it may be manufacturing. Privately, it's not manufacturing.


However once the serialized receiver (from an 80% for example) is done, it's manufactured, but you are saying it can still be manufactured (further?) into an illegal unsafe handgun right? I'll buy that. But then, if you theoretically build it into something exempt, then strip it right down again, then immediately build it into an unsafe handgun, that's ok because you cannot further manufacture it after it's already been built up once into something exempt?

That all seems quite shaky to me.

There are many things that a person not in the business can do that a person in the business can't. I can, for example, borrow a firearm and not enter it into an A/D book.

Since your looks are driving can they explain how reassembling a stripped firearm you own isn't manufacturing under your world view?

I know you can't but it's enjoyable to watch you ignore it.

-Gene

Matt C
12-31-2010, 12:28 AM
I can bring up a "double manufacturing" handgun example. Group Industries made a ton of semi-auto "UZI" receivers (but didn't finish them out to 100% with all the parts welded to it) and they are considered manufactured firerams (they have GI's manufacturing info on them). GI went bankrupt and their inventory was auctioned off. If you want to buy one, it has to be 4473'd/DROSed because it is considered a firearm. Fast forward 10-20 years and Vector Arms bought some of that inventory and finished welding them up and then assembled them as pistols and rifles. When Vector did that, they had to mark their name, city, state onto them. So, if you see one of those receivers, it is marked with Group Industries on it and Vector Arms as well.

Great example, thank you. Note that there is no NFA association either.



Since your looks are driving can they explain how reassembling a stripped firearm you own isn't manufacturing under your world view?


Conceptually it is the same as reassembling high-cap mag form an existing hi cap mag, that isn't manufacturing. Breaking a thing down from a whole into it's components and reassembling it is not manufacturing. Taking a 10 round mag and modifying it to be a high cap mag would be manufacturing, legally you are creating a new construct which did not exist before. When you create a non-rostered handgun, it is arguable that you do the same thing.

I know you can't but it's enjoyable to watch you ignore it.

-Gene

On the contrary. On the subject of ignoring unpleasant interrogatories however, where are we again on that NRF thing?

dantodd
12-31-2010, 11:44 AM
But how can it be a long arm and not be a long arm at the same time?

In the eyes of CA it is a long gun. It is not clear if this CA designation alters the ATF's view of the gun's status. However; you cannot buy one because you cannot buy a long gun unless you have reached the age or 21 OR the long gun is configured as either a rifle or a shotgun.

hoffmang
12-31-2010, 11:50 AM
On the contrary. On the subject of ignoring unpleasant interrogatories however, where are we again on that NRF thing?

The money and time is better spent on Peņa.

-Gene

Matt C
12-31-2010, 11:57 AM
The money and time is better spent on Peņa.

-Gene

So are you going to admit now that I was right when I said that exact same thing in 2008?

Cokebottle
12-31-2010, 12:16 PM
At NO POINT IN TIME did I approach this as getting a non-roster handgun. The paperwork I brought in was about the frame (even photographed) and the questioned that I asked was even about "transfering a frame".
That's the odd thing about the roster and the law.
Honestly, the AR/AK frame is no more or less legal than a stripped 1911 frame.
None can be transferred into the state because they are:
A) Not on the roster.
B) Not in a roster exempt form.

They aren't illegal to possess, they aren't illegal to ship to the FFL, but it is illegal for the FFL to transfer them to any non-exempt person (a cop can buy them).

In both cases, both the AK/AR, and the 1911, the receiver must be assembled in a roster-exempt form, meaning a fully functional handgun, single shot with some kind of lock securing a zero-round sled in the magwell, minimum overall length of 10.5", and minimum barrel length of 6".

hoffmang
12-31-2010, 2:06 PM
So are you going to admit now that I was right when I said that exact same thing in 2008?

That's an odd statement since you knew nothing of Peņa at the time and it hadn't been filed yet.

Still waiting for you to answer my question :gene:

-Gene

Matt C
12-31-2010, 2:19 PM
That's an odd statement since you knew nothing of Peņa at the time and it hadn't been filed yet.


Exactly, I said:
BOTTOM LINE:I think this is potentially a very winnable case at the appeals court level (for vagueness if nothing else), though I have no doubt you would have to take it at least that far eventually. The real question is, with so many legal avenues towards the complete destruction of the roster, why waste what would probably end up being the same amount of time and money on this case for a "workaround"?.

Isn't that exactly what Pena is? Hasn't CGF decided that NRFs are a distraction and a legal challenge to the roster itself is the best way to proceed? Man, you really hate to admit someone else is right don't you?


Still waiting for you to answer my question


Did you have some question other than the one I answered in post 42?

hoffmang
12-31-2010, 5:02 PM
Isn't that exactly what Pena is? Hasn't CGF decided that NRFs are a distraction and a legal challenge to the roster itself is the best way to proceed? Man, you really hate to admit someone else is right don't you?
And you really just have to be right.

Hindsight being 20-20 I was wrong to not proceed on NRFs. Nordyke was a surprise on the incorporation front to all so we were able to file Peņa much sooner than expected. What we didn't expect is the continuing hijinks allowing the case to be stalled past McDonald. Which is better, you being right or Californian's being able to acquire guns not on the roster?


Did you have some question other than the one I answered in post 42?
Yes. You refuse to admit that your interpretation of assembling a firearm by a non FFL for personal use on a serialized frame is manufacturing has no way to be differentiated from reassembling a firearm after cleaning. Can you explain why taking your handgun apart down to the serialized frame is different from assembling parts to the serialized frame you bought?

-Gene

Matt C
12-31-2010, 5:23 PM
Hindsight being 20-20 I was wrong to not proceed on NRFs. Nordyke was a surprise on the incorporation front to all so we were able to file Peņa much sooner than expected. What we didn't expect is the continuing hijinks allowing the case to be stalled past McDonald. Which is better, you being right or Californian's being able to acquire guns not on the roster?


That's BS revisionist history, you knew Nordyke would go our way and said so repeatedly as far back as 2008. I can dig up those posts if you want to deny it. You know perfectly well I'd rather be wrong and have the roster gone. What would be better is if the Roster had been challenged a la Peņa, and potentially under several other possible causes, back in 2008.


Yes. You refuse to admit that your interpretation of assembling a firearm by a non FFL for personal use on a serialized frame is manufacturing has no way to be differentiated from reassembling a firearm after cleaning. Can you explain why taking your handgun apart down to the serialized frame is different from assembling parts to the serialized frame you bought?


Actually I did answer that, but I'll post it again so you don't have to scroll up: Conceptually [reassembling a non-rostered firearm after cleaning] is the same as reassembling high-cap mag form an existing hi cap mag, that isn't manufacturing. Breaking a thing down from a whole into it's components and reassembling it is not manufacturing. Taking a 10 round mag and modifying it to be a high cap mag would be manufacturing, legally you are creating a new construct which did not exist before. When you create a non-rostered handgun, it is arguable that you do the same thing.