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thecoolguy
07-29-2006, 7:09 PM
he should not be charged with what they are charging him. i would of gave it to them after they punched him.
http://abclocal.go.com/kgo/story?section=local&id=4409500

6172crew
07-29-2006, 7:18 PM
Nice shot! Got him on a dead run:D.

JPglee1
07-29-2006, 7:22 PM
All the defense attorney has to do is show that crazy video of all the oakland urban youth destroying everyones cars and acting like idiots in the street...He'll get acquitted then.


Seriously tho, shooting them when they run away from you = murder in CALIFAS....IF they are running, you CANNOT shoot them, as you are NOT in danger.

Sucks, in TEXAS if its dark you can shoot em all you want LOL



JP

dwtt
07-29-2006, 7:24 PM
Here's the best part of the reporter's story:

"While he doesn't condone what the store clerk is accused of doing, we found one Oakland business owner who told us he certainly understands it.

Auto shop owner: "It's a little like the wild west down here. The police won't come unless there is a shooting."

The owner of an auto repair shop in West Oakland doesn't want us to show his face but he regularly packs a gun at work. Uusually it's a 40-caliber pistol, tucked in the back of his pants, loaded and ready for use.

Auto shop owner: "Especially if you try to take my business away from me. I provide for my family with this, my livelihood. I put a roof over my head. I feed myself. And if you're going to come in here and try to steal from me, you're going to have a fight. And if you hurt me, I'm going to hurt you back."


Of course Jerry Brown will still claim he's stopping crime in Oakland as he campaigns to be our next AG.

Matt C
07-29-2006, 7:53 PM
Sorry, but you can't shoot folks in the back. I predict this will be plead out to manslaughter and the guy gets minimal jail time.

Side note: Situational awareness is the key to preventing crap like this.

6172crew
07-29-2006, 9:02 PM
Sorry, but you can't shoot folks in the back. I predict this will be plead out to manslaughter and the guy gets minimal jail time.

Side note: Situational awareness is the key to preventing crap like this.
Thats not totally true, you can pursue because the guy could have been going to get a gun and come back. We dont know the whole story and like always I wont take anything the liberal media says as what really happened.

Matt C
07-29-2006, 11:53 PM
Thats not totally true, you can pursue because the guy could have been going to get a gun and come back. We dont know the whole story and like always I wont take anything the liberal media says as what really happened.

That's really reaching.

bwiese
07-30-2006, 12:02 AM
That's really reaching.

Yeah, the guy's stupid and is likely toast. In fact the civil stuff may be worse than criminal stuff - even if the guy gets off on the criminal charges, he'll lose his biz, savings, etc. since there will readily be a civil finding against him.

Pappy91W
07-30-2006, 12:09 AM
Sorry, but you can't shoot folks in the back. I predict this will be plead out to manslaughter and the guy gets minimal jail time.

Side note: Situational awareness is the key to preventing crap like this.

Maybe and maybe not. You wern't there and neither was I. Who's to say?

The facts are:

1. A robbery occured.
2. The robbers thumped the victim.
3. Robbers fled.
4. Victim gave chase.
5. Victim shot and killed one badguy. (Popped fleeing fellon.. OOPSIE! Had the cops have done it, it would be a non-issue. As far as the badguy getting shot in the back, WHO CARES? We're not talking about dueling where "honor" is at stake)
6. One less badguy. (COOL!)

Sadly, yeah, I can see this being plead out, should be a damned dismissal, but that's not how California works.


Shiznit happens...

Pappy91W
07-30-2006, 12:13 AM
Yeah, the guy's stupid and is likely toast. In fact the civil stuff may be worse than criminal stuff - even if the guy gets off on the criminal charges, he'll lose his biz, savings, etc. since there will readily be a civil finding against him.

Oh yeah! Truth!

*Badguys folks* That racist clerk killed my precious innocent boy that ain't hurt no one no how! SHOW ME DA MONEY! I want some compensation for my po innocent boy.

x2delight
07-30-2006, 1:43 AM
I dunno if someone saw this earlier. but about a week ago a friend of my familes shot and killed a robber during a robbery. Store was in southern california in the city of Loma Linda. Naders Market, he shot and killed the robber when he entered the store. We also own 2 liquor stores and we dont tolerate this crap. just like that auto shop owner said. we do this to provide for our family. now a days these cowards are coming in and robbing stores and even thought the clerk gave up all the monies the robber shoots to kill anyways.

althought i dont condone the clerk for what he did in that oakland robbery becuase he was out of danger. but iam still glad he packs a gun for that reason.

god damn crooks need to learn liquor stores arent the places to rob anymore these days.

halifax
07-30-2006, 7:25 AM
Sorry, but you can't shoot folks in the back. I predict this will be plead out to manslaughter and the guy gets minimal jail time.

Not necessarily true. Although it's not quite the same, the Lake county prosecuter hasn't filed charges against the homeowner who shot and killed a fleeing home-invasion suspect. The homeowner witnessed his step-son being beat in the head with a baseball bat. He probably acted in the heat of passion when he got his gun and shot the perp even after he ran from the house.

amd64
07-30-2006, 8:30 AM
Laws are too slanted in the dirtbag's favor nowadays; as long as these excuses-for-humans are treated like protected species, things will never get better.

And there's nothing gained in catching petty criminals like this. They would spend a short time in criminal school (jail) to refresh their tactics, lift some weights, and network with colleagues.. Then they get out on probation to keep on doing what they do, and graduate to committing more violent crimes. There's one less dirtbag that'll follow that career path. I'm sad it ruins a good store clerk's life as a result.

6172crew
07-30-2006, 8:34 AM
That's really reaching.

That isnt what my cop buddy told me.

Are you a lawyer or in a position to back up the claims you have made or are you basing your statement off of what you have heard on the news or movies?:confused:

If a guy comes into my home then he knows where I live and if I beleive he or she is going to get a weapon to come back and do harm I can pursue that person.

Makes more since than "you cant shoot someone in the back" or "thats reaching" to me.

Matt C
07-30-2006, 11:09 AM
If a guy comes into my home then he knows where I live and if I beleive he or she is going to get a weapon to come back and do harm I can pursue that person.

No, you can't, you are not in immediate danger. When you can do is arm yourself and call 911. That is exactly what the law tells you to do. If he comes back and enters your home he is fair game.

As others have pointed out there are always exceptions, but generally I think it's a good rule- Dont shoot people in the back.

Red Flag
07-30-2006, 11:36 AM
Welcome to California...

You can NOT shoot someone in the back unless you are defending someone who is under imminent danger of being maimed or killed..

If the guy was fleeing, you are no longer in danger and you can not use lethal force. The bad guy did not have the ability to cause you great bodily harm if he is running away from you. (Unless he is shooting at you while he's running, but I anit taking that chance!)

Chris

slickjoesd
07-30-2006, 11:43 AM
Welcome to California...

You can NOT shoot someone in the back unless you are defending someone who is under imminent danger of being maimed or killed..

If the guy was fleeing, you are no longer in danger and you can not use lethal force. The bad guy did not have the ability to cause you great bodily harm if he is running away from you. (Unless he is shooting at you while he's running, but I anit taking that chance!)

Chris

In the .mil, we have that same thing in a class we take, if heís a fleeing felon, committed a crime with a weapon, STILL ARMED, has not obeyed your commands to stop or drop the wapon you may use the force that is necessary to prevent another crime. So basically you can shoot him, yes in the back..... What would happen if you didnít and he ran into a school a block away and wasted 30 kids? Then you would be the bad guy for not doing it.

slickjoesd
07-30-2006, 11:45 AM
but thats from LE background, not from some joe shmoe

Red Flag
07-30-2006, 11:57 AM
In the .mil, we have that same thing in a class we take, if heís a fleeing felon, committed a crime with a weapon, STILL ARMED, has not obeyed your commands to stop or drop the wapon you may use the force that is necessary to prevent another crime. So basically you can shoot him, yes in the back..... What would happen if you didnít and he ran into a school a block away and wasted 30 kids? Then you would be the bad guy for not doing it.

Mil is different the non-LEO civilian. As a CCW holder I am not allowed to stand my ground and fight unless I have no other way out. I am not going to risk going to jail FOREVER. Would I feel bad for the kids, hell ya, but legally, I would not be able to do anyting about it. LEO might, but civies cant.

Chris

slickjoesd
07-30-2006, 12:05 PM
Mil is different the non-LEO civilian. As a CCW holder I am not allowed to stand my ground and fight unless I have no other way out. I am not going to risk going to jail FOREVER. Would I feel bad for the kids, hell ya, but legally, I would not be able to do anyting about it. LEO might, but civies cant.

Chris
I am also a CCW holder, i guess its one of thoese you would have to be there.

Kruzr
07-30-2006, 12:06 PM
If a guy comes into my home then he knows where I live and if I beleive he or she is going to get a weapon to come back and do harm I can pursue that person
You can pursue him but not with a gun unless you have a permit. You can call the police and wait in your house with a gun in case he comes back and breaks down the door. That's about all you can do legally after the badguy has fled the scene. A friendly DA (you remember them, the same 58 that DOJ keeps referring to) will decide if you will be charged but under the law, it is voluntary manslaughter. You may only use lethal force when confronted with a lethal situation.

6172crew
07-30-2006, 1:50 PM
You can pursue him but not with a gun unless you have a permit. You can call the police and wait in your house with a gun in case he comes back and breaks down the door. That's about all you can do legally after the badguy has fled the scene. A friendly DA (you remember them, the same 58 that DOJ keeps referring to) will decide if you will be charged but under the law, it is voluntary manslaughter. You may only use lethal force when confronted with a lethal situation.

I still say good shot, got him on a dead run. The guy wont be coming back and the only reason was he shot the guy.

I havent been told anything by anyone here that has any kind of proof to back up statements , and I have told you what a cop has told me. What law says you cannot pursue after being burglerized at your place of buisness?

Sorry no spell check at work.;)

Red Flag
07-30-2006, 1:53 PM
You can pursue all you want. Be the best witness you can be....but you can not shoot the guy.

Chris

6172crew
07-30-2006, 2:08 PM
You can pursue all you want. Be the best witness you can be....but you can not shoot the guy.

Chris
If the guy assaulted you then I say you can, whos to say he wasnt going to get a gun and come back to do the job?

The reason Im aurguing this is I was told this by my buddy after watching a clerk chase a guy out of his store with a gun. He said the guy was in the right.:cool:

Matt C
07-30-2006, 2:53 PM
You CAN chase a guy with a gun if he just commited a felony in your presence. It is however a REALLY bad idea. If you can't figure out why, I'll leave you for darwin.

You CAN NOT shoot the guy in the back no matter what he did, unless you are somehow in IMMEDIATE fear of your life or great bodily harm OR are defending another person who is.

If you are an LEO you can shoot the fleeing felon under state law but most likely there is a department policy prohibiting is under most circumstances.

If you want proof explore www.leginfo.ca.gov/calaw.html

6172crew
07-30-2006, 6:02 PM
You CAN chase a guy with a gun if he just commited a felony in your presence. It is however a REALLY bad idea. If you can't figure out why, I'll leave you for darwin.

You CAN NOT shoot the guy in the back no matter what he did, unless you are somehow in IMMEDIATE fear of your life or great bodily harm OR are defending another person who is.

If you are an LEO you can shoot the fleeing felon under state law but most likely there is a department policy prohibiting is under most circumstances.

If you want proof explore www.leginfo.ca.gov/calaw.html

You CAN chase a guy with a gun if he just commited a felony in your presence. It is however a REALLY bad idea

So you can chase a guy down that has just beat you and robbed you (burglury is a fellony).

You CAN NOT shoot the guy in the back no matter what he did, unless you are somehow in IMMEDIATE fear of your life or great bodily harm OR are defending another person who is.

Why the hell else would you shoot someone?

and as as far as Darwin goes, I wouldnt let him go to return, sounds like you would.

I guess you couldnt find the info on the link or else you would have posted it, are you wanting me to look up your stated facts?

Red Flag
07-30-2006, 6:14 PM
Yes, you can chase a felon all over and even through other peopleís houses if you witnessed the crime. I donít know what youíre not getting. In the state of California, you can NOT shoot a fleeing felon! No matter what he did to you, if he is running away he is not a threat anymore.

That is what this guy did. His life was not in danger anymore but he chose to chase down the bad guy and shoot him in the back. Big no no, period!

And now heís paying the price, as would anyone who did what he did.

Chris

VeryCoolCat
07-30-2006, 6:45 PM
The law says you cannot pursue a fleeing intruder/robber once they are outside of your home/buisness.

I BELIEVE the law was to prevent collateral damage of a shoot out between owner/robber in a public place i.e. busy street or area with homes.

If you shoot someone in the back, even if you were just robbed and your home/buisness there will be questions oh yeah there will be questions... but since they were on your property you can say he tried to run when you pulled a gun.

If you shoot someone in the back in a public spot... thats murder even if they did just rob you. the rule i believe is to prevent people from 'staging robberies to justify murder'

Theres a trick around this. If your front buisness door has a secret lockdown button you can use that and then fire away at the robbers because then you're in immediate danger.

As for the home, if someone is in your home... you have to get them before they reach the exit.

Apostolos
07-30-2006, 10:08 PM
Quote from the article:

According to police, when the two men ran out of the store, Homran chased them and shot Martin from a distance.

I don't know how you could be in fear of imminent danger of death or great bodily injury when someone is running away from you and you're chasing them with a gun.

The above description is of revenge, not self-defense.

Blessings,
David

artherd
07-30-2006, 10:42 PM
Mil is different the non-LEO civilian. As a CCW holder I am not allowed to stand my ground and fight unless I have no other way out.
CA has no 'duty to retreat'.

Generally, you may not shoot someone who is running away, unless they somehow are still a direct and immediate threat to your life, based on the objective doctorine of a reasonable person.

For instance, even if they had their back turned, and you saw their elbow indicating they were going for what looks like a firearm in their right front pocket, you may shoot them at that instant, be it in the front or the back. Hardly advisable however.

socalguns
07-30-2006, 11:20 PM
go for a jury trial buddy, you'll get off.
I know because i'm psychic.
And if (or when) you're faced with a wrongful death suit,
go for a jury trial buddy, you'll get off.
I know because i'm psychic.
:D

USMC_2651_E5
07-31-2006, 4:31 AM
I don't think that the Penal Code offers any protection to civilians because this is the only response I got when I searched the Penal Code for "fleeing felon." Either way, LEOs and civilians could both be civily liable. Pay attention to sub-section 3.

196. Homicide is justifiable when committed by public officers and
those acting by their command in their aid and assistance, either--
1. In obedience to any judgment of a competent Court; or,
2. When necessarily committed in overcoming actual resistance to
the execution of some legal process, or in the discharge of any other
legal duty; or,
3. When necessarily committed in retaking felons who have been
rescued or have escaped, or when necessarily committed in arresting
persons charged with felony, and who are fleeing from justice or
resisting such arrest.

ryang
07-31-2006, 8:42 AM
Thats not totally true, you can pursue because the guy could have been going to get a gun and come back.Here's a (hopefully) simple description that might save someone jail time: there is an attacker and a defender. The attacker is the one comitting a crime and the defender is the object of that crime. Defenders can legally use deadly force to protect themselves or others from an immediate threat to life. Attackers can not. The moment an attacker breaks off their attack and runs away they are no longer an attacker. The moment a defender pursues they become the attacker.

I agree that it's possible an attacker could simply be running away to gain better cover and resume the attack but the key word there is resume. As a good guy you have to wait until you see an imminent threat before you can shoot someone. That's one of the disadvantages you have to work under as a good guy. Not shooting a bad guy who's running away--even if you "know" they are running for cover and will resume the attack--is another disadvantage good guys have.

Victim shot and killed one badguy. (Popped fleeing fellon.. OOPSIE! Had the cops have done it, it would be a non-issue.Had the cops done it, they would have done so with more legal authority and training than a civilian. They also would have followed department guidelines to ensure the only time they shoot is when they are justified to do so. That would make it a non-issue--except for the civilian outcry afterwards. There was a cop in Miami who shot a motorcyclist clearly intent on running him down. IA ruled clean shoot but public outcry meant he was found guilty of murder.

That isnt what my cop buddy told me.I think asking cops for legal advice is one of the worst things you can do. I say that because they know enough of the law to seem like a credible authority but they are not perfect. If you treat what a cop says as gospel you can get into trouble later on. Like any source you should think for yourself and get a second opinion--and a third, and a fourth if you can. Case law can be considered the "ultimate" source but even case law changes over time.

If you're still hung up on cops as the ultimate source, consider this true tale: I was in a reserve law enforcement class. We had a test on homicide and this was one of the questions: "A woman is shot five times in the head but survives. Is the crime of murder complete?" Several of my classmates were unsure about the answer and asked their cop friends. All of their cop friends--including detectives with 5+ years experience--replied yes. The answer was no; if the victim survives then how can it be murder? Attempted murder yes, murder no. This was a simple question but they all got it wrong. Cops are human and can make mistakes. Don't treat what one cop says as gospel simply because they're a cop.

rkt88edmo
07-31-2006, 10:26 AM
Sorry, but you can't shoot folks in the back. I predict this will be plead out to manslaughter and the guy gets minimal jail time.

Side note: Situational awareness is the key to preventing crap like this.


If he armed himself everytime his mental buzzer was going off, he'd probably be armed 4/5s of the time and drawing down on 1/5 of his legit customers. :mad:

One less bad guy is good, getting charged and having to fight it is bad (worse?)

6172crew
07-31-2006, 10:52 AM
After looking back on all the post and replies I think I was just saying I believe that shooting this guy in the back is good and the DA is another reason why they will continue to rob his store and take food from his families mouth.

And... that a blanket statement like you cant follow a guy out of the store is false and we dont know what happened except it appears you can go into a store beat the owner about the head and as long as you turn your back on him you will get away unless the cops just happen to be out front.

Tell the folks who would rob a store that they can be shot if the do those things and all but a few would stop commiting this crime...IMHO:cool:

Matt C
07-31-2006, 11:51 AM
If he armed himself everytime his mental buzzer was going off, he'd probably be armed 4/5s of the time and drawing down on 1/5 of his legit customers.

Yeah, that's what situational awareness means.:rolleyes: How about he carries CCW 5/5s of the time and only draws when presented with an actual threat?:cool:

socalguns
07-31-2006, 3:14 PM
To quote ben franklin
force (jury nullification) ********s upon reasons (penal code) back :)

rkt88edmo
07-31-2006, 3:28 PM
Yeah, that's what situational awareness means.:rolleyes: How about he carries CCW 5/5s of the time and only draws when presented with an actual threat?:cool:

Well, he is within bad breath distance of everyone who come up to the counter if he doesn't pre-empt he may have a very hard time presenting when the threat becomes "actual" :p

dmckean44
07-31-2006, 3:50 PM
It's funny I watched a TV show on fox where an old lady chased a guy outside her store and shot him dead as he was getting away and they called her a hero. But I guess if you do that in California you're a murderer.

linuxgunner
07-31-2006, 3:53 PM
It is murder. Using force after there is no threat is a retaliation or punishment. We don't allow retaliation in this society. All punishment is handled through our justice system. Our justice system is not perfect (no system ever is) but within our society, it's our first and last choice for punishing people who do things which are seriously wrong (crimes).

Paul1960
07-31-2006, 6:14 PM
Welcome to California... America
Chris
There ... fixed it for you.

Outside of Texas where you can cut down Girl Scouts selling cookies door-to-door eight seconds after sunset using a belt fed machine gun it's never good to shoot a fleeing criminal. Even in Texas you'll face a civil trial as they've got plenty of lawyers too. The advice given nationwide is that once the deadly conflict has been broken to not shoot. You can't shoot them a minute, five minutes, or five weeks later if the attack is over.

Yeah, I was in fear that the guy was going to his car to reload, grab a hand grenade, or get reinforcements ... as long as you can get 12 others on the jury to believe your story you're golden.

Apeman88
07-31-2006, 7:33 PM
I don;t like to but do agree shooting someone in the back that just robbed you is "bad". But isn;t the whole idea of arming yourself for defensive reasons (in your house or place of business or with a CCW) to protect yourself and your PROPERTY? Don't I have the right to protect my property (money, jewlery and etc)? If they just robbed me and are fleeing... don;t I have to right to stop them with all means necessary to recover my property?? If they are running away with my "property" regardless the value, I should have the right to draw and ask them to stop... and if they don't... can't I shoot them to recover my property?

Ken

6172crew
07-31-2006, 7:38 PM
I don;t like to but do agree shooting someone in the back that just robbed you is "bad". But isn;t the whole idea of arming yourself for defensive reasons (in your house or place of business or with a CCW) to protect yourself and your PROPERTY? Don't I have the right to protect my property (money, jewlery and etc)? If they just robbed me and are fleeing... don;t I have to right to stop them with all means necessary to recover my property?? If they are running away with my "property" regardless the value, I should have the right to draw and ask them to stop... and if they don't... can't I shoot them to recover my property?

Ken
Ken, Im almost sure you cannot protect your property, even in AZ you can only protect your life or the life of others.

And even when you do that your going to get sued, do a search for "Quarterbore" and read his story....wackadoo!

ryang
07-31-2006, 9:02 PM
I should have the right to draw and ask them to stop... and if they don't... can't I shoot them to recover my property?Short answer: no. It doesn't matter how much that personal property cost, you can't shoot unless you or someone else is in imminent threat to life.

Relatively few people own guns. Even fewer practice how to shoot for self-defense. Fewer still study when to shoot for self-defense. Try to be in the minority who know both how and when.

trinity9
08-01-2006, 12:31 AM
Side note: Situational awareness is the key to preventing crap like this.


I've worked fast food in difficult areas in Sacramento for 20 years-- situational awareness is just that-- awareness. It is difficult to be on guard day in and day out, hour after hour. I was once robbed just after 10 a.m. on a Sunday morning.

In a perfect world the shooting would be justifiable and an educated jury would send this man home.

trinity9

gh429
08-01-2006, 1:04 AM
The belligerent side of me says good job, waste that MF, he gets what he deserved. Because that's what I would WANT to do if I were the victim.

However the rational side of me asks, is it right to put people to death for committing an unarmed robbery? How about simple burglary?

The punishment should fit the crime regardless of who dishes out the punishment...

HkUSP45
08-01-2006, 1:54 AM
He was a coward for shooting the BG in the back. It should have been done during the confrontation. Plus if its true what the BG stole, then the clerk should let it go and claim it as lost merchandise and report the incident.
a plus is there's one less crook in the world

Apeman88
08-01-2006, 10:30 AM
Ken, Im almost sure you cannot protect your property, even in AZ you can only protect your life or the life of others.

I do beleive this is true... but during the LA riot in the 90's... those Korean business owners were on the roof of their businesses "protecting" their property. I do recall them shooting from the roof tops... don;t think they actually shot anyone. But I think if some BG came on their property... they would of shoot to kill.

Say you own a liquor store... some BG (unarmed) comes in and starts openly stealing and ransacking your place destroying everything in his path. Are you allowed to draw your weapon and demand he stops? And what if he does not? Are you allowed to shoot? Or you can only watch him destroy your property and maybe even burn it down to the ground before the cops arrive?

Another senario is you go home and find your daughter being mulested by your preist of 10 years. He sees you and tells you it's been going on for a few years and promises you, like the other times, he won't hurt or kill her but just wants to have some fun with her. Technically you and your daughter are not in a "life threatening" situation. What then?

I'm not trying to be an @ss. Just trying to understand where the line is. I'm sure each state and each situation is different.

Ken

Matt C
08-01-2006, 10:46 AM
In CA during a riot there is a whole other set of use of force rules that apply. Deadly force is legal when attempting to suppress a riot, not attempting to suppress a guy running out your front door with some t-shirts.

rod
08-01-2006, 10:50 AM
Say you own a liquor store... some BG (unarmed) comes in and starts openly stealing and ransacking your place destroying everything in his path. Are you allowed to draw your weapon and demand he stops? And what if he does not? Are you allowed to shoot? Or you can only watch him destroy your property and maybe even burn it down to the ground before the cops arrive?

Another senario is you go home and find your daughter being mulested by your preist of 10 years. He sees you and tells you it's been going on for a few years and promises you, like the other times, he won't hurt or kill her but just wants to have some fun with her. Technically you and your daughter are not in a "life threatening" situation. What then?

Ken
I think a BG acting the way you describe in the liquor store would cause me to fear for my life. IF there was no way to escape, I'd shoot.

The priest having his way with your daughter...shoot him. As long as she is under 18 years old. I'm assuming that you mean an under age daughter. I believe that a BG causing "great bodily harm" is justification for lead poisoning.