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View Full Version : Want to use the Hi-power as a SD pistol but


jrara
12-28-2010, 10:03 AM
will removing the mag disconnect going to cause me legal issues if used in a SD situation?

zfields
12-28-2010, 10:42 AM
Ive seen this hashed out on a few different boards, always ends up with no clear answer. Really depends on the DA it seems if they feel like attacking that subject or not.

XDRoX
12-28-2010, 10:56 AM
will removing the mag disconnect going to cause me legal issues if used in a SD situation?

If if does, you'd be the first.

Chach
12-28-2010, 10:57 AM
It can be argued either way by lawyers, and as zfields said, no real clear answer has ever come about after this question has been hashed out on any forum.

My question is, why do you want to remove the magazine disconnect? Have you adequately broken in the magazines to the gun? I've found that polishing them where the disconnect contacts the mag body greatly helps the feel of the trigger. Also, try using nickel mags, IMO they seem smoother than the blued ones.

Heiko
12-28-2010, 11:02 AM
I can't see how that modification could be used against you in a criminal case. Quite honestly, if you were in that situation and the gun was even sent to DOJ for forensic testing, that is something that they might not even check. The gun might not even be sent out since the issue of "whodunnit" and with what gun is not at issue.

If one were prosecuted in a SD type shooting, the issue is whether it was justified. The circumstances, the threat, the actions and reactions, and your intent are what will be scrutinized, not whether you used a handgun, shotgun, a crossbow, or a sock full of quarters.

zfields
12-28-2010, 11:04 AM
I can't see how that modification could be used against you in a criminal case. Quite honestly, if you were in that situation and the gun was even sent to DOJ for forensic testing, that is something that they might not even check. The gun might not even be sent out since the issue of "whodunnit" and with what gun is not at issue.

If one were prosecuted in a SD type shooting, the issue is whether it was justified. The circumstances, the threat, the actions and reactions, and your intent are what will be scrutinized, not whether you used a handgun, shotgun, a crossbow, or a sock full of quarters.

You sir, have far to much faith in our court system.

Heiko
12-28-2010, 11:16 AM
You sir, have far to much faith in our court system.

Yes and no. I have to have some faith as that's all we've got. Love it or hate it, we're contrained by it. I have seen some severe injustices including a veteran peace officer I know who got prosecuted and convicted of voluntary manslaughter for an on-duty shooting that was totally justified. I am intimately aware of the facts of that case and the guy got screwed over so I do have a healthy amount of scepticism and disdain for the court system. In that case, a very good man who in no way was a murderous rogue cop got sentenced to state prison for doing his job.

All we can do as armed individuals is try to be educated and prepared. We can't prepare for all legal attacks but we can at least prepare in terms of understanding self-defense and what to say or not say in the aftermath of a shooting if we should be so unlucky as to be in that situation.

Vanilla Gorilla
12-28-2010, 11:29 AM
You sir, have far to much faith in our court system.

:yes:+1:rofl2:

GuyW
12-28-2010, 11:51 AM
My question is, why do you want to remove the magazine disconnect? Have you adequately broken in the magazines to the gun? I've found that polishing them where the disconnect contacts the mag body greatly helps the feel of the trigger. Also, try using nickel mags, IMO they seem smoother than the blued ones.

Directly related to SD:

With the disconnect in place, the gun cannot fire without a magazine in place.

Without the disconnect, you at least have a single shot gun...

It's presence is also detrimental to smoother trigger action.

.

jyo
12-28-2010, 11:59 AM
In court, it can be proved that several Federal agencies have ordered their pistols with the magazine safety removed---in other words, if its good enough for the Feds, it should not be a problem---the same is true of hollow point bullets, they can be defended in court. Be aware, I ain't a lawyer, so don't take this as legal advice!

Turbinator
12-28-2010, 12:08 PM
In court, it can be proved that several Federal agencies have ordered their pistols with the magazine safety removed---in other words, if its good enough for the Feds, it should not be a problem---the same is true of hollow point bullets, they can be defended in court. Be aware, I ain't a lawyer, so don't take this as legal advice!

And I'm no lawyer either, and this is not legal advice, but I once kept a HiPower (clone) at the ready for home defense - with the mag disconnect removed. After much research and reading (at the time), I concluded that explaining the mag disconnect removal would be the least of my worries in an actual situation.

Turby

GuyW
12-28-2010, 12:13 PM
In court, it can be proved that several Federal agencies have ordered their pistols with the magazine safety removed

Got any links to statements about / by the feds?
.

Infidel
12-28-2010, 12:14 PM
After much research and reading (at the time), I concluded that explaining the mag disconnect removal would be the least of my worries in an actual situation.

Turby

I agree...Very good point Turby!

Heiko
12-28-2010, 1:11 PM
And I'm no lawyer either, and this is not legal advice, but I once kept a HiPower (clone) at the ready for home defense - with the mag disconnect removed. After much research and reading (at the time), I concluded that explaining the mag disconnect removal would be the least of my worries in an actual situation.
Turby

Agreed. Explaining the circumstances of the shooting and whether it was legally justified would be the main concern. If it was a bad shoot it wouldn't matter whether your magazine disconnect was operational or disabled or whether you had Hogue grips or Trijicon sights, it would be that you commited an unjustified homicide.

GUNFREAK
12-28-2010, 2:05 PM
It's presence is also detrimental to smoother trigger action.

.

How does the magazine disconnect affect the trigger?

Sorry to the Op for thread jacking btw

pTa
12-28-2010, 2:12 PM
How does the magazine disconnect affect the trigger?

Sorry to the Op for thread jacking btw

it blocks the trigger bar while the mgazin is not inserted/ but even with you mag in place- the bar still drags agains the trigger bar.

Have all HIPOWERS had the feature?

railroader
12-28-2010, 2:51 PM
How does the magazine disconnect affect the trigger?

Sorry to the Op for thread jacking btw

The disconnect drags against the front of the mag when you pull the trigger. It is spring loaded too so when it is removed the trigger is lighter and the grittiness is removed. Some people polish the disconnect and the front of the mag to smooth things up. Mark

Khram
12-28-2010, 3:04 PM
I don't believe in doing so but to each his own. I'd live with it or use another design.

B Strong
12-28-2010, 3:18 PM
And I'm no lawyer either, and this is not legal advice, but I once kept a HiPower (clone) at the ready for home defense - with the mag disconnect removed. After much research and reading (at the time), I concluded that explaining the mag disconnect removal would be the least of my worries in an actual situation.

Turby

Bingo.

Every BHP I've ever owned either came w/o the mag disconnect, or I pulled it myself.

Desert_Rat
12-28-2010, 3:24 PM
I would be more worried about the civil action that will be sure to come after a SD shoot. I think that is the time where the issue of the equipment used will be brought up.

brassburnz
12-28-2010, 3:26 PM
I removed the mag disconnect from my Hungarian Hi-Power clone. It helped with the trigger pull some. Then I realized it was the crappy sights that affected getting off a good shot more than the trigger, so I put the mag disconnect back in.

I think the safest gun is the one that shoots where it's supposed to when it's supposed to. Maybe I'm just to simple minded to think otherwise.

BunnySlayer
12-28-2010, 5:12 PM
If the shooting is, in all other resects, legal and above board then I dont believe it would be an issue in a crimminal trial, coroners inquest etc etc. It could however be an issue in the inevitable civil action, following any shooting.

dfletcher
12-28-2010, 6:09 PM
I think the only time it could be an issue is if you accidentally shot the bad guy. With the magazine out. And didn't kill him. :cool:

Actually, it would be interesting to hear from an attorney and have them answer the question as to whether they would try to use it against the fellow doing the shooting and how. Getting very creative, can they think of a way to use it against the shooter?

luckystrike
12-28-2010, 6:15 PM
I wouldnt sweat it, it might depend if the state govt wants to help out their criminal brethren by trying to get into the mag disconnect issue.

STAGE 2
12-28-2010, 7:09 PM
will removing the mag disconnect going to cause me legal issues if used in a SD situation?

No. There are no documented cases where someone was convicted of a good shoot because of any gun modification. You hear stuff like this because there are a select group of individuals who need to fill space in the gun rags and scaring gun owners sells magazines.

Facts are far more boring, and the facts are that what you did to your gun doesn't go to any element of any crime. If you intend to shoot someone, and do, then its not going to matter whether you had a mag disconnect or not.

B Strong
12-28-2010, 7:10 PM
No. There are no documented cases where someone was convicted of a good shoot because of any gun modification. You hear stuff like this because there are a select group of individuals who need to fill space in the gun rags and scaring gun owners sells magazines.

Facts are far more boring, and the facts are that what you did to your gun doesn't go to any element of any crime. If you intend to shoot someone, and do, then its not going to matter whether you had a mag disconnect or not.

Cough Ayoob Cough