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erik_26
12-27-2010, 7:13 PM
Which is better, Laser on the rail, in the grip or in the guide rod?

Sig P220R

Chief-7700
12-27-2010, 7:20 PM
A Laser could be fun after you learn grip, trigger control and sight alignment with ability to put all your shots in the 10 ring at 15 to 25 yards.

What happens if the batteries go dead?

Sam
12-27-2010, 7:40 PM
I like the crimson trace grips. Don't use them as your primary sights, they are just another tool in the tool box.

erik_26
12-27-2010, 8:03 PM
No, they wouldn't be my primary sights. I am use to my fixed sights. I haven't ever used either of the three laser systems I mentioned and was looking for feedback on what works and what does not.

Sam
12-27-2010, 8:50 PM
Im not opposed to a laser on the rail but I don't like the idea of putting it in the guide rod.

stormvet
12-27-2010, 9:09 PM
Rail or grip.

evidens83
12-27-2010, 9:11 PM
None

Cokebottle
12-27-2010, 9:14 PM
I like the crimson trace grips. Don't use them as your primary sights, they are just another tool in the tool box.
+1

As far as type?
The closer to the centerline of the bore it is, the more accurate it will be (at typical handgun ranges... once you get out over 30 yards or so, the laser will "impact" high due to bullet drop).
That would be the guide rod type, followed by the Crimson Trace, and last in line would be a laser mounted under a tactical light mounted to the rail.

dascoyne
12-28-2010, 12:46 AM
My Glock 21SF has a guide rod laser - works just fine ... and I don't have to shop for a new holster. The only disadvantage of a guide rod laser is the expense and the understanding that they're weapon model-specific (i.e. I can't use the laser on any other pistol)

liftman
12-28-2010, 5:44 AM
I've got one of these rear sight lasers on my bump in the night pistol. http://www.laserlyte.com/Laser_Gun_Sights/Landing_Page/index.html. Very nice unit and will work with most all holsters.

supersonic
12-28-2010, 6:55 AM
The closer to the centerline of the bore it is, the more accurate it will be (at typical handgun ranges... once you get out over 30 yards or so, the laser will "impact" high due to bullet drop).
That would be the guide rod type, followed by the Crimson Trace, and last in line would be a laser mounted under a tactical light mounted to the rail.

I have all three types & they are each just as 'accurate' as the next once they are zeroed. Once the red dot is resting right on top of your front sight @ 25 yds., it doesn't make a difference where the laser's origin is coming from. As far as 'accuracy' goes, that's the gun, not the laser (assuming you've removed the human from the equation).

45R
12-28-2010, 7:13 AM
What happens if the batteries go dead?

Install new ones :D

supersonic
12-28-2010, 8:52 AM
What happens if the batteries go dead?

The batteries never just "go dead." You will start to see a very noticeable decrease in brightness when they are starting to get low on juice. Also, some of the better quality units will actually 'tell you' when the batteries are starting their descent by "flashing" the laser when you turn it on. Either way, I personally believe in a backup when it comes to something this serious. That is why I have tritium irons on all, but a few, of my handguns.

Im not opposed to a laser on the rail but I don't like the idea of putting it in the guide rod.

Why? If you are talking about having to modify your firearm, that isn't the case at all. The LaserMax system is a guiderod with a pre-installed captured recoil spring. They are pretty much bulletproof and the laser is built-in. I have one in my G-23, and the part just replaces the stock plastic rod. In fact, the LM rod is of superior quality to the Glock part in that it is made of steel and has a Wolff-style spring on it. The only thing I don't like about the LM is the fact that the on/off switch (which replaces the stock takedown lever) can inadvertently be activated by holstering the weapon. The operation of it is a bit "mushy." I wish, for the price I paid for it, that the switch was more "positive" a/la detent with more of a SNAP-on, SNAP-off action to it.

erik_26
12-28-2010, 9:37 AM
I have been thinking about buying the LaserMax guide rod laser for my 92fs and p220. The price is the biggest deterrent for now.

dascoyne
12-28-2010, 9:56 AM
The guide rod laser is the only one that doesn't add bulk to the pistol. I don't depend on a laser for aiming and I almost never use it. I just like knowing it's there in case I need it. Price seems to be the only thing really that keeps LaserMax from taking over most of the autoloader market.

1911Operator
12-28-2010, 10:03 AM
I always thought lasers were "cool" until I bought one, It was a TLR2, flashlight and laser combo. I tried to use the laser and even though it was zeroed, it was a pain in the butt to get used to. IMO Im just gonna stick to flashlights, iron or night sights. I do however practice a few shots of hip firing once a while. Ill put about 30 rounds into a target, I was always good at it, most of my rounds end up in a 10" group.

Heiko
12-28-2010, 10:11 AM
First off, I cannot say the word laser without thinking about "laser" with the air quotes. :D

Second, I have always questioned the usefulness of laser sights and thought that, as many have pointed out, they are treated as a substitute for proper aim with iron sights and proper technique. I have come to think of them as a good backup for aiming when iron sights cannot be used due to body position or injury. They could also be good for when vision is compromised such that acquiring iron sights is impaired. I'm thinking for if someone is a bit groggy or vision is impaired by sudden light or flash. I'm not sure of the utility or effectiveness as a visual deterrent to a bad guy who sees the laser beam and thinks better of his intended actions. I suppose if a laser stops a bad guy and prevents you from having to actually shoot someone, it's a good use.

Given those situations, I just bought a TLR-2 light/laser for my primary HD pistol. I have been using a M3X but came across the TLR-2 for sale and since I have been considering a laser, jumped on it. I figure it's good to have and I don't have to turn the laser portion on. I am prohibited from use of a laser for my carry guns though so the laser is strictly for home.

erik_26
12-28-2010, 11:13 AM
When I think of “laser” I always think of the first Austin Powers movie when Dr. Evil wants sharks with laser beams attached to their heads.

I only shoot with iron sights now (except for with my rifle). I am a decent shot. The only real thought for having a laser is for fun.

But you brought up a good point. In the event of self-defense in the middle of the night it might come in handy for faster target acquisition in a low light setting. I can’t speak for criminals, but personally the thought of a laser point at my chest is unsettling.

I haven't bought one yet because I have viewed it as more of a toy type accessory. I don't want to add bulk to my weapon if I can avoid it. I wasn’t sure about the pros/cons of each system available. So the more I think about it, the more I lean towards the lasermax.

Vanilla Gorilla
12-28-2010, 11:31 AM
None

+1:yes:

plan-b
12-28-2010, 1:04 PM
I'm pretty sure "none" wasn't part of the original question.

Anyway... I don't have a LASER aiming device yet, but I've looked into them as well and my thoughts are that the guide rod & grip LASERs won't require a special holster (though a grip LASER might depending on the holster). The railed units would be a little more flexible since you'd be able to move them to another gun if you switch up later on.

For those that poopoo on the LASER, it shouldn't be the primary aiming device. But defensive situations aren't always predictable and you might not be able to hold your gun at arms length and line up your sights. Space constraints, body positions, all differ situationally. It's nice to have an alternate way of pointing at the bad guy in case you physically can't in a traditional manner.

And for those who think it's a deterrent, it isn't. The bad guy is gonna be either looking for you or looking for valuables. They won't be staring down at their chest while rifling through your belongings. Unless you happen to keep a fogger running in the house, there's a very high likelihood they may not even notice the dot.

supersonic
12-28-2010, 6:52 PM
And for those who think it's a deterrent, it isn't. The bad guy is gonna be either looking for you or looking for valuables. They won't be staring down at their chest while rifling through your belongings. Unless you happen to keep a fogger running in the house, there's a very high likelihood they may not even notice the dot.

Sorry, but from first-hand experience I can tell you that you are quite wrong. One doesn't have to be 'looking down at their chest' or 'in a room full of fog' to see that they are being targeted with a class IIIa laser. In very low-light (& especially dark) situations, the CIII is VERY noticeable, especially for whomever is on the 'business end' of one. Of course there are exceptions. However, based on LE testimony (& my own experience) a weapon-mounted laser can absolutely be a deterrent.

kln5
12-28-2010, 7:18 PM
one good thing about the laser sights is when my wife shoots with it on she can see the aim point move as she pulls the trigger. It will help get rid of recoil anticipation.

Shady
12-28-2010, 7:27 PM
you should put your laser in the trash
the only thing its going to do is slow you down

MrOrange
12-28-2010, 9:55 PM
I must have a radically different method of shooting than most of youse.

For anything past arms length, here's what I do:

1. Focus on target.
2. Bring up gun between eyeball and target.
3. Shift focus to gun, from vague outline over target to front sight all neat and evenly squared away in rear sight, depending on level of accuracy required.
4. Break shot. The shot going off is a visual thing; when I see what I need to see in any particular instance, off it goes. (Thank you, Brian Enos.)

With a glowing red dot on the target, you ride right past 3 and go straight to 4. I can't understand how that is undesirable.

Laser not the primary? What are you going to do, line up the irons and if they somehow go away, turn on the laser? Or are you planning to force your focus off the red dot on the target to the irons, then if you don't like what you see, go back and double-check with the laser, like you're bore sighting?

Toys? Do you guys think of optics the same way? You can dunk CTCs and LaserMax guide rods underwater and they'll still work. I suppose if you dropped the gun just right so a rock or whatever hit the laser housing before anything else, it might knock it out of kilter. I could say the same for fixed iron sights. With a laser you can take a quick sight pic and verify both are where you left them.

Batteries? Yes, anything can fail or break down eventually. I honestly don't even know how long I've had the Lasergrips on my primary, a Commander, but it's been at least 5 and probably 6-7 years. Still on the first set of batteries.

More complicated? Not with CTCs. Grab gun, laser goes on. I don't want to be playing finger tap-dance with switches for light, laser, bang and bang-disable.
[Which brings up something else I wonder about: Why isn't there a roaring demand for lights that are pressure switch or otherwise "grab gun" activated?]

Using the dot as a deterrent isn't part of my game plan, although I've read of multiple police encounters where the dot made a suspect re-evaluate his future. In one, the copper with the dot-thrower on his pistol showed up after several other officers, including ones with ARs, had the subject at gunpoint and he wasn't impressed. As soon as the officer put the dot on him, the guy cooperated, enthusiastically.

I like 'em, I love 'em, I want more of 'em.
It's to the point now where if I were shopping for an SD sidearm, whether or not there was a CTC product for it would be a deal-breaker.

plan-b
12-28-2010, 10:06 PM
In my experience (formerly selling class IIIa LASERs as well as class II and IIa) it's really hard to pick up the actual beam of the laser. Unless there's enough particulate in the air that is. I still feel like the bad guy, who's got other things on their mind, won't be paying enough attention to look for it.

Admittedly, for firearm aiming devices, I've only had experience with the Insight, Streamlight and Surefire units and those beams weren't visible. So there could very well be other brands out there that are visible. But in any event, the bad guy is going to be focused on doing something bad.

Norcal Industries
12-28-2010, 10:57 PM
i have a lasermax on my 92fs and glock 17, and i love it. so much easier to take in peripheral when you dont have to focus on sights. check out the lasermax video. it explains exactly why a laser is a good tool.

supersonic
12-29-2010, 6:14 AM
I must have a radically different method of shooting than most of youse.

For anything past arms length, here's what I do:

1. Focus on target.
2. Bring up gun between eyeball and target.
3. Shift focus to gun, from vague outline over target to front sight all neat and evenly squared away in rear sight, depending on level of accuracy required.
4. Break shot. The shot going off is a visual thing; when I see what I need to see in any particular instance, off it goes. (Thank you, Brian Enos.)

With a glowing red dot on the target, you ride right past 3 and go straight to 4. I can't understand how that is undesirable.

Laser not the primary? What are you going to do, line up the irons and if they somehow go away, turn on the laser? Or are you planning to force your focus off the red dot on the target to the irons, then if you don't like what you see, go back and double-check with the laser, like you're bore sighting?

Toys? Do you guys think of optics the same way? You can dunk CTCs and LaserMax guide rods underwater and they'll still work. I suppose if you dropped the gun just right so a rock or whatever hit the laser housing before anything else, it might knock it out of kilter. I could say the same for fixed iron sights. With a laser you can take a quick sight pic and verify both are where you left them.

Batteries? Yes, anything can fail or break down eventually. I honestly don't even know how long I've had the Lasergrips on my primary, a Commander, but it's been at least 5 and probably 6-7 years. Still on the first set of batteries.

More complicated? Not with CTCs. Grab gun, laser goes on. I don't want to be playing finger tap-dance with switches for light, laser, bang and bang-disable.
[Which brings up something else I wonder about: Why isn't there a roaring demand for lights that are pressure switch or otherwise "grab gun" activated?]

Using the dot as a deterrent isn't part of my game plan, although I've read of multiple police encounters where the dot made a suspect re-evaluate his future. In one, the copper with the dot-thrower on his pistol showed up after several other officers, including ones with ARs, had the subject at gunpoint and he wasn't impressed. As soon as the officer put the dot on him, the guy cooperated, enthusiastically.

I like 'em, I love 'em, I want more of 'em.
It's to the point now where if I were shopping for an SD sidearm, whether or not there was a CTC product for it would be a deal-breaker.

See, THIS^ appears to be someone with actual real life experience with the effectiveness of a weapon laser! Why not have ALL the tools to help you save your own (and others') lives? SLAP on those day/night tritiums!!!! SLAP ON those CTC/Lasermax, etc. laser aiming devices.....because they WORK!!! And each one gives you an advantage in a situation where you WANT ALL the advantages you can get! Oh, and BTW, I bought my S&W1911 stock with CTC Grips about ~4 years ago. I've put thousands of rounds through it (using the lasergrips about 1/3-1/2 the time). The original batteries are still going strong!:D

http://i205.photobucket.com/albums/bb181/giftedgiver/DSCN3295.jpg

erik_26
12-29-2010, 7:22 AM
[QUOTE=supersonic;5521046]See, THIS^ appears to be someone with actual real life experience with the effectiveness of a weapon laser! Why not have ALL the tools to help you save your own (and others') lives? SLAP on those day/night tritiums!!!! SLAP ON those CTC/Lasermax, etc. laser aiming devices.....because they WORK!!! And each one gives you an advantage in a situation where you WANT ALL the advantages you can get! Oh, and BTW, I bought my S&W1911 stock with CTC Grips about ~4 years ago. I've put thousands of rounds through it (using the lasergrips about 1/3-1/2 the time). The original batteries are still going strong!:D

Supersonic, you make a valid point. Why not have every advantage you can get?

Now to decide crimson trace, or lasermax? i like the feel of my stock grips. Does the crimson trace change the way the gun feels? If so then I will go with the lasermax.

dascoyne
12-29-2010, 7:57 AM
one good thing about the laser sights is when my wife shoots with it on she can see the aim point move as she pulls the trigger. It will help get rid of recoil anticipation.Using a laser while shooting is NOT the best way to teach trigger contol. On the contrary it's not uncommon to see a beginner or newcomer at the range with their new or rented pistol with a laser expecting to x-ring but hitting the bottom of the page because the haven't been taught basic trigger control. The biggest problem with a laser is that beginners think it can compensate for lack of training.

When using the laser as a training device it's a different matter. Activate the laser in dry fire practice, not while shooting, to learn trigger control.

brassburnz
12-29-2010, 8:43 AM
I USED to have CT lasergrips on a Beretta 92FS and 1911 (can't remember which gun it was). They both functioned well and shot to point of aim at reasonable distances. But they were very distracting. Sold them off to buy other stuff.

This year I started having problems with my back, which makes it difficult to get into a good shooting stance and hold it. I don't really shoot groups any more with a pistol, more like a shotgun pattern. So I picked up another set of CT grips for a 1911. Not sure if using the laser will make my shooting any better, but it's just something I want to experiment with.

No experience with the LaserMax, but I'd probably buy one for a Glock if I found a good deal. Don't like the way the CT's mount on a Glock.

supersonic
12-29-2010, 9:37 AM
Now to decide crimson trace, or lasermax? i like the feel of my stock grips. Does the crimson trace change the way the gun feels? If so then I will go with the lasermax.

For anything other than a Glock, I would go with CTC. They don't change the feel/contour of the stock grips (in fact, I think the 1911 CTC's actually feel better than the stock ones in that the activation switch on the front strap is rubber, and it gives an overall comfortable 'hybrid plastic/soft rubber' feel to it). And on the SIG model, there are 2 rubber activation switches: one on each side of the grip (a "foolproof" switch, if you will, so that any pressure put on the grip will activate the laser). And, the other nice thing about CTC's is that they have a "master switch" that you can click off when you know you won't need it so that accidental pressure (say during storage/travel) doesn't cause constant activation, which will drain the batteries.


When using the laser as a training device it's a different matter. Activate the laser in dry fire practice, not while shooting, to learn trigger control.

I am a BIG advocate for this because I learned a great deal of my trigger control from using what I call the 'bullet method.' (***MAKE SURE GUN IS UNLOADED.....THEN DO IT AGAIN!!!***) After activating your laser, you find a spot on the wall as your aiming point. Then, you simply place a cartridge (any will do from .25 to .45) right behind your front sight on the slide and dry fire the weapon. The goal is to consistently make sure 2 things don't happen: the red dot on the wall must barely, if at all, move. Finally, the "bullet" must still be on your slide after the trigger breaks. Now, this only works for flat-topped slides. However, if you can find a semi-concave item that will balance on top of a rounded top, you can make that work as well. After 20 min. a day practice (for about a week or two) in this manner, you will be amazed at how much trigger control you will have gained.


No experience with the LaserMax, but I'd probably buy one for a Glock if I found a good deal. Don't like the way the CT's mount on a Glock.

Agreed. I don't like them either. They make cycling the slide awkward, if not difficult. I've done the above excercise with my Glocks with a GTL mounted under the dust cover. The LaserMax is great, though. That new LaserLyte (?) rear sight that has a laser built into it seems very promising, though, for a system that doesn't hamper holster use.

rdmax
12-29-2010, 1:09 PM
Interesting to see so many different opinions, experiences, likes and dislikes about a laser.

I have three sets of CTC grips for CCW and home protection. Targeting is fast, once you practise and train with it a little bit. It does magnify your shaky hands, but over time, it helps you train to be less shaky with practise. You can shoot at almost any angle and hit a target as long as you can pull the trigger. I had one sit for over three years and the battery worked just fine. I was afraid the battery would drain over time, but it did not seem to. If it does, it is really slow. If I was a BG with a laser pointed at me, I know I am in trouble. Once sighted, it will hit wherever the dot is pointed at. I have never been in an actual gun fight, but if I did, I am not sure if I will be lining up a set of iron sights before pulling the trigger. It would probably be point and shoot with both eyes open. So, a laser is going to definately help.

Cokebottle
12-29-2010, 2:12 PM
In my experience (formerly selling class IIIa LASERs as well as class II and IIa) it's really hard to pick up the actual beam of the laser. Unless there's enough particulate in the air that is. I still feel like the bad guy, who's got other things on their mind, won't be paying enough attention to look for it.
You don't have to see the beam.

Most times, the bad guy is going to be looking around for shadows, lights, or signs of movement. It's only the hardcore desperate tweaker that is not going to be aware of things happening in the room.
Whether or not he sees the red dot on his chest is irrelevant because if you can "spot" him, he can see the source of the laser. That bright dot is going to not only serve as a warning shot, but will also give your position away.

At least with a hand-held flashlight, he's somewhat dazzled, and if you hold it high and to the side, he's not going to be able to pinpoint your gun or your chest/head unless he has his own light source to illuminate you.

vietboy1st
12-29-2010, 2:15 PM
laser got me confused. Because i suck at telling the distances .
what is the point for having iron sight and scope instead of laser ? laser job is to join out the target nothing else. Yes you can zero the laser in at ceteran distance but it is pretty confused to me.

supersonic
12-29-2010, 5:21 PM
That bright dot is going to not only serve as a warning shot, but will also give your position away.

At least with a hand-held flashlight, he's somewhat dazzled, and if you hold it high and to the side, he's not going to be able to pinpoint your gun or your chest/head unless he has his own light source to illuminate you.

I think I'll take a .25mm red dot giving away my position WAY before I'd go with a HUGE, blinding light. Yeah, you can hold it out at arm's length, but if the BG is quick enough.....you may very well lose an arm (or at least a hand!);):p

Cokebottle
12-29-2010, 5:37 PM
I think I'll take a .25mm red dot giving away my position WAY before I'd go with a HUGE, blinding light. Yeah, you can hold it out at arm's length, but if the BG is quick enough.....you may very well lose an arm (or at least a hand!);):p
Try it.

Have your wife wake you up at some random time by standing in the bedroom door with a flashlight aimed directly at your face.

If it's anything more than a cheapie 2-cell Radio Shack Christmas freebie, you aren't going to see anything but a huge bright ball.

BG most likely isn't going to be using a light, his eyes are going to be adjusted to the darkness. A quality tactical light, or even a 3-4 cell Maglight, is going to completely blind him.

supersonic
12-29-2010, 6:41 PM
Try it.

Have your wife wake you up at some random time by standing in the bedroom door with a flashlight aimed directly at your face.

If it's anything more than a cheapie 2-cell Radio Shack Christmas freebie, you aren't going to see anything but a huge bright ball.

BG most likely isn't going to be using a light, his eyes are going to be adjusted to the darkness. A quality tactical light, or even a 3-4 cell Maglight, is going to completely blind him.

I have and I know. But just because it will blind you doesn't mean you will not instinctively start shooting in that direction. As far as lights go, I favor the strobing type (like the Blackhawk XIPHOS) that causes disorientation and can be switched from strobe to off to on, ....... Much more a chance of BG going WTF!!!!! and stumbling over his own feet. :D However, being behind cover with a laser/nightsights and a strobing weaponlight pretty much trumps all, IMO. Regardless of everything, however, there will almost never be a time when all the cards fall in your deck. Being caught in a "perfect" tactical position during a home invasion/burglary/robbery is about as likely as being hit by lightning.

ajaffe
01-16-2011, 8:32 PM
Hate to bring this back to life but I am looking for a light/laser combo for a G17 and 1911 later on. I am torn between the following:
Viridian Green Laser + light combo
Streamlight TLR2s
Surefire x400

I like the concept of the green laser but Viridian is a new name to me. Are they as reliable as the other two?
Does the streamlight's laser have as high an output as the surefire?
Why does the Surefire cost nearly double the other two?