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View Full Version : Knoxx SpecOps vs. COPstock


tman
07-25-2006, 1:11 AM
SpecOps (http://www.knoxx.com/NewStyleKnoxx/TechSupport/SpecOpstech.html) vs. COPstock (http://www.knoxx.com/NewStyleKnoxx/TechSupport/COPtech.htm)


Has anyone used both?

It looks like the COPstock also reduces recoil. I have read that the SpecOps is great at reducing recoil and was wondering how the COPstock compares.

Having a nice looking folding stock while also getting recoil reduction would be great... Or is the SpecOps the way to go?

Also, I was wondering how the metal COPstock felt against the shoulder when firing compared to the SpecOps with the rubber piece. It looks like it may be painful, but is it?


Thanks.

EDIT: I also came across the SpecOps Folder (http://www.knoxx.com/NewStyleKnoxx/Products/SpecOps_Folder.html), is this an improved version of the COPstock?

Ironballs
07-25-2006, 4:29 AM
spec ops has two recoil reducing points, better shoulder pad, adj. lop,

copstock has one reducing point, wire not comfortable on shoulder, can be pistol grip only/more compact..

had both, sold my copstock.. love my specops buy ymmv

jessegpresley
07-25-2006, 3:36 PM
The SpecOps Folder just looks like a CopStock with a slimmer profile. The CopStock is a bit wide above your grip; this seems to be remedied with the SpecOps Folder.

tman
07-25-2006, 6:18 PM
I wondering how the SpecOps folder will compare with the SpecOps in terms of recoil, especially considering the lack of rubber agaisnt the shoulder?

Also, anyone know when the SpecOps folder will be available?

James R.
07-25-2006, 6:47 PM
but hey, just sharin...take it or leave it.

I bought the SpecOps and IMHO it fits poorly. It left a mark on the trigger guard and the trigger guard doesn't even sit centered in the channel (screwed up on the design in CAD apparently). Mine was bad enough that when you pushed the thing thru recoil it actually hit the safety button and pushed it in a tiny bit. It never engaged, but c'mon NOTHING should be touching PERIOD.

I sent it to Knoxx, they looked it over and said that what I was observing was, "normal" and "how it's designed" etc. OK fair enough...that's how it's designed and IMHO that means it's designed somewhat poorly.

I took it out to the range and shot it despite my misgivings. Yes, it's very effective at reducing recoil, far less jarring than a fixed non PG stock. However, you have to get a cheek weld waaaay back on the stock lest you be slapped / pinched in the face by the whole recoiling tube affair. And for me as a left handed shooter I ran into one particularly nasty side effect of the whole swallowing the trigger guard into the stock deal.

You touch off the shot by pulling the trigger, in an instant the stock moves back and up on the ramp. Your finger of course stays stationary...as this all happens the side sadle runs across the top of your trigger finger knuckle and takes off a chunk of flesh. It drew blood on the very first shot...

Also, I dunno if it was the heat or what, but I had the butt extended to the 2nd from last furthest out and the thing felt very rubbery and unsteady. When you fired it felt like it was bowing upwards under the recoil forces.

Suffice it to say it's going back to Midway, I appreciate Larry's efforts to win me over and fix the problems but I was not satisfied. I also let some other folks at the range shoot it and they all pretty much agreed. It's a bit of a gimmic, too many moving parts and doesn't really belong on a tactical shotgun. The least of your worries when you're fighting for your life is how sore your shoulder is gonna be from shooting the shotty. Furthermore some of the recoil pads out there are pretty effective...

I ended up ordering a Davis Speedfeed IV which is what Remington uses on their Law Enforcement 870 PMAX gun...I handled one at Turners and it's rock solid. They had a great deal too $399 for an 870 with extended cap mag, Speedfeed IV stock and foreend, that's about $30 less than you can usually build one for yourself...

PS - If you simply have to have one of these gadgets I'd try the CopStock over the SpecOps simply because if it works as bellows which it appears to it seems far less apt to pinch.

Regards,

James R.

CaCrusin
07-26-2006, 7:54 AM
[b]What do the Professionals Say? – Here is a review of the SpecOps by a State Trooper and Trainer. At his request, I have deleted the name of the large State agency he works for. /b]

Dear Knoxx Industries,

First off I would like to apologize for the lateness of this email. As you know I am still a working traffic Trooper, and thus my time in the office is very little. I would also like to thank you for your understanding during this T&E period. The past several month have seen a lot of change at the _HP, and __ DPS.

I have been a firearms instructor with the _HP going on 7 years now. One of my least favorite responsibilities is training, and qualification with the department issued Remington 870 shotguns. I personally love the weapon system, but alas, my troopers hate it with a passion. Our problems with the 870 center around two main areas: 1. Recoil, and 2. Proper fit. Because of these two issues few troopers like the 870. So training and qualification is a non-stop ***** fest for most troopers. I have been on the look out for ways to fix those two aforementioned problems. Our department issue shotguns have a hodge-podge mix of factory stocks, and Speedfeed stocks. These two options are the only way we can try to make guns fit troopers.

Then I met you at the 2005 Shot Show. You showed me one of the prototypes of the SpecOps stock. I thought this might be an answer to “our” shotgun problems. You explained all the features and the fact that it (SpecOps Stock) would reduce felt recoil approximately 70%. I was extremely skeptical about this claim, but I wanted to try one out nonetheless. I received the stock and was impressed with the quality. I installed it on one of our spare 870's. It installed quickly and easily. It was rock solid. I grabbed a case (200 rounds) of rifled slugs and left for the range. I then loaded and fired seven slugs as fast as I could work the slide. I was like, “Ok, it still kicks pretty good.” Then I remembered you telling me to shoot a regular 870 for comparison. I did so. That is when the light bulb went on for me. I then proceeded to fire the rest of the case through the 870 with the SpecOps stock. I also let a fellow instructor test drive it as well. We liked it so much we put four cases of “00” Buck and Slugs through it. I was no longer a skeptic.

What became very apparent to me was that the recoil characteristics of the 870 changed, reduced recoil and muzzle flip. Once I got a solid handle on this change I was able to make headshots on a standard FBI Q target at 15 yards a lot faster than with my 870 equipped with a Speedfeed stock. I am now to the point where I can do this almost as fast as I can work the action. I can make center of mass hits just as fast at 25 yards too.

I handed the 870 with the SpecOps stock to some of our troopers in _____ to test out. Most were immediately impressed or converted after firing their own gun. I was scheduled to run shotgun qualification for ___ DPS in _______ City. I was very much looking forward to this for many reasons. Chiefly command staff was going to be present. I knew when command staff fired the 870 with the SpecOps stock, we could get some ordered. Also I knew some of our weaker shooters were going to qualify without the headache. At the last minute I was re-tasked to Field Train a new Trooper. So I gave the shotgun with the SpecOps stock to the guy taking my place. I explained the proper use of the stock, and the precautions. He made sure the correct people put rounds down range with the SpecOps 870. All were impressed. At least 15 of our officers stated they were going to purchase this themselves. Command Staff was impressed as well. Hopefully we will be ordering SpecOps stocks with the next budget.

There is one example that I would like to share about your stock. First let me set a little background. I have a female officer that is plagued with problems with the 870. She is a veteran trooper with more then 15 years experience. She is haunted by a good many old injuries. She failed to qualify with her 870. I went through the standard remedial training on the fundamentals. I then handed her the 870 with the SpecOps, adjusted it for the proper size. Explained how it worked. The trooper opted to immediately re-qualify instead of a warm up and re-qualify. She fired a 90%. The look on her face when I told her the score was priceless. She has advised me that she placed an order for a SpecOps stock.

In closing I am keeping the SpecOps stock, and have installed it on my issue 870. Just let me know how much I owe you!! Also our PIO has yet to get back to me on the issue of allowing the _HP, __ DPS to be used. You can use my name alone if you wish. I will stand by your product proudly.

Thank you again,

Trp. James Steele

Couldn't say it any better myself.

CaCrusin

James R.
07-26-2006, 10:11 AM
I'm not tryin to rip the product. I was excited about it, bought it, put it on my gun and wanted it there badly enough to go thru shipping it to you and the whole 9 yards. I took your advice and shot the thing and found it quite effective, but it had some issues which I didn't much like.

Clearly the side saddle thing is out of your control, furthermore being a left handed shooter I'm a bit of an abberation (though there are an awful lot of us). This whole combination of saddle and stock resulted in a combination that cut into my trigger finger with each and every shot :-( Not a good fit for me...

I even went so far as to fire my shotgun right handed (talk about awkward) and confirmed that that finger received no cuts. This issue only really affects left handed shooters with a side saddle...the lower part of the saddle gets banged into your trigger finger just below the knuckle, badly enough that it drew blood.

Regards,

James R.

CaCrusin
07-26-2006, 3:20 PM
I'm not tryin to rip the product. I was excited about it, bought it, put it on my gun and wanted it there badly enough to go thru shipping it to you and the whole 9 yards. I took your advice and shot the thing and found it quite effective, but it had some issues which I didn't much like.

Clearly the side saddle thing is out of your control, furthermore being a left handed shooter I'm a bit of an abberation (though there are an awful lot of us). This whole combination of saddle and stock resulted in a combination that cut into my trigger finger with each and every shot :-( Not a good fit for me...

I even went so far as to fire my shotgun right handed (talk about awkward) and confirmed that that finger received no cuts. This issue only really affects left handed shooters with a side saddle...the lower part of the saddle gets banged into your trigger finger just below the knuckle, badly enough that it drew blood.

Regards,

James R.

It is unfortunate that your SideSaddle (not a Knoxx product) cut your hand. However, that is not a flaw in the SpecOps design but rather in the design of the side saddle. It should not hang down low enough or be sharp enough to cut your hand. While I haven't tried it myself, I am confident that the Mesa Tactical unit would not cause you injury. The fact is that the design of the SpecOps requires that the shotgun move rearward during recoil. A modicum of care should be taken to avoid sharp edges on accessories.

I didn't take your comments personally and respect your opinion.

CaCrusin

James R.
07-26-2006, 4:01 PM
It is unfortunate that your SideSaddle (not a Knoxx product) cut your hand. However, that is not a flaw in the SpecOps design but rather in the design of the side saddle. It should not hang down low enough or be sharp enough to cut your hand. While I haven't tried it myself, I am confident that the Mesa Tactical unit would not cause you injury. The fact is that the design of the SpecOps requires that the shotgun move rearward during recoil. A modicum of care should be taken to avoid sharp edges on accessories.

I didn't take your comments personally and respect your opinion.

CaCrusin

Yeah the ATI SideSaddle or whatever it is hangs down lower than it needs to that's for sure. However it's not sharp, it's just the sheer force of the recoil that does it. It basically blunt strikes your finger and there's not much meat on that part of the finger until you're squishin skin between the outside world and bone.

On a stock that doesn't allow the trigger to move relative to your fingers / hands this is not an issue. I won't call it a flaw of the SpecOps, but rather a byproduct of how the SpecOps works coupled with the design of the SideSaddle sticking down a bit further than is really necessary.

Mesa Tactical is nice, but goddamn...just to put a saddle and buttstock on a gun from them costs more than the rifle ;-)

Regards,

James R.

ErinMT
07-26-2006, 5:55 PM
I love mine, though the pinching between the cheek rest and buffer tube has pulled a hair or two out of my face on occasion.

And a sling point on the sides of the metal portion that meets with the firearm would be nice for those that like single point QD slings.

tman
07-27-2006, 9:54 PM
Thanks for the replies.

I wrote an email to Knoxx a couple nights ago:

Hello

I have some questions regarding the SpecOps Folder

When will it be available?

How much will it cost?

Can I pre-order?

How does the recoil reduction compare to the original SpecOps stock?
Does the lack of a rubber pad make much of a difference?

Thank you!

CaCrusin
07-28-2006, 7:55 AM
When will it be available?

It should be available in another three weeks, depending on the next set of sample parts.

How much will it cost?

$119.95 MSRP

Can I pre-order?

Yes, please do.

How does the recoil reduction compare to the original SpecOps stock?

The recoil reduction is the same as the COPstock Folder...very effective. The SpecOps has a secondary reducing device and a larger buttpad so it is still superior.

Does the lack of a rubber pad make much of a difference?

The new SpecOps Folder does have a very nice rubber pad. It is very comfortable, but not quite the same as the SpecOps. If a folding stock is what you want or need, this is the one for you.

We will have it for the Remington 870 and Mossberg pump guns in 12- and 20-gauge.

Thanks for your interest.

CaCrusin

saki302
07-29-2006, 1:32 PM
For those who can't use the knoxx stock, I think Hogue makes a recoil reducing setup as well, but I've never tried it. My Benelli never bothered me too much, and that kicks worse than any pump I've tried ;)

-Dave

mblat
07-29-2006, 3:18 PM
I used both - I didn't find Copstock very comfortable. SpecOps truly reduces recoil a lot. Even my 120 pounds wife can know shoot magnum loads, even though she still prefers not to do it....

tman
08-02-2006, 8:36 AM
CaCrusin: Thanks for the reply.

It sounds like the SpecOps Folder is a lot like the COPstock. What are the differences?

Thanks again.

Gromulin
08-02-2006, 3:36 PM
since a Knoxx guy is here....

I recently put a CompStock on my Mossberg 590A1, and was dissapointed that the sling attachment point in the bottom of the stock was placed in the wrong position by the factory. The only mention of this was in the single page instruction sheet, directing the owner (me) to drill a hole 1.25" forward of the existing hole. Fair enough, it is documented.

BUT...kind of disheartening to have to drill a hole in a brand new $129.00 stock. It assembles easy enough that I did'nt initially even have to refer to the instructions, so I could have missed it very easily. I was fooling around with the new stock, pushing the gun down againt the floor just to see how much travel it had, when I notices the hole dissapear under the butt plate, and realized what would happen if the sling was attached...THEN..I looked at the instructions.

Anyway, have not had a chance to shoot it yet, but sure seems like a solid product, just bummed to have to bubba-fy any NEW product, that should have been caught in the design / pre-production QA process.

Just my .03 (adjusted for inflation)

CaCrusin
08-03-2006, 7:35 AM
The differences between the COPStock Folder and SpecOps Folder are primarily cosmetic. They both use the same mechansim and will reduce recoil to the same degree. The new stock is being introduced due to manufacturing needs. We are basing all of our products on the SpecOps platform and the COPstock is on a different mold. It is more cost-effective to run one part many times than two parts fewer times.

As to the sling stud on the CompStock...That goes back to the early days before Knoxx. The inventor of all of this technology didn't want to build it. He licensed the CompStock to Hogue. They made the tooling, but changed the design of the mechansim. They replaced the cam-lever with a piece of chain. This reduced the effectiveness of the system and sales were poor. The position of the sling stud hole was set by Hogue and built into the tooling. When the inventor decided to go into the manufacturing business, we bought the rights back, along with the tooling. We put the cam-lever back in which made the sling stud hole unusable. The cost to retool is far beyond reasonable for such a little item. I am confident that once you shoot your CompStock, you will forgive this minor issue.

Good shooting,

CaCrusin

Gromulin
08-03-2006, 3:10 PM
As to the sling stud on the CompStock...That goes back to the early days before Knoxx. The inventor of all of this technology didn't want to build it. He licensed the CompStock to Hogue. They made the tooling, but changed the design of the mechansim. They replaced the cam-lever with a piece of chain. This reduced the effectiveness of the system and sales were poor. The position of the sling stud hole was set by Hogue and built into the tooling. When the inventor decided to go into the manufacturing business, we bought the rights back, along with the tooling. We put the cam-lever back in which made the sling stud hole unusable. The cost to retool is far beyond reasonable for such a little item. I am confident that once you shoot your CompStock, you will forgive this minor issue.

Good shooting,

CaCrusin

Fair enough. Thanks for the answer, I'll keep that in mind.