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View Full Version : Might sell Gen 4/AR15 for a Garand. Lots of questions.


Anchors
12-23-2010, 1:30 AM
I keep looking at my new guns next and thinking, "I can get one of these anytime I want." Then I look at the C&R stuff and think "This is a piece of history, once these are gone, they are gone forever."

So with that being said. I think I will sell my Glock Gen 4 or AR, if not the whole thing at least the upper. And buy an M1 Garand through CMP.

I am looking at getting a Service Grade, I think.

I think something WWII era would be the best, but I want something that will still shoot decently and won't be TOO rough. I am cool with something that is in the same shape as your average mosin as long as it shoots well.
A bunch of scratches and dings are fine as long as there are no cracks in the stock and the bore is solid.
Prefer if the bluing was about 75% or better.
Prefer if most parts matched correct manufacturer (if matching numbers aren't possible to come by).

So what are my options in the service grade arena?
I know a lot of people go for the H&R with high serial to get a like new rifle.
But I want something WWII era.
Which is the best manufacture to pick and why?

Also, I have a C&R and all the other requirements, but I am not a member of a shooting organization I guess. So I will probably join GCA or CRPA.
Can I join the group and order in the same day? I read something about someone getting something notarized?!

Thanks for all the help guys, I know I just posted a long thread about Toks. Please bear with me haha.

Noonanda
12-23-2010, 7:01 AM
join the GCA, you get a subscription to their magazine which is all about garands.

I have a service grand Garand I got back in 05 timeframe from the CMP and have never regretted it.

Unlike a lot of rifles from other countries, there are not many "all matching" Garands, they were not serialized like that, and after rearsenal they might have a hodgepodge oif different manufaturers parts, but thats part of its history. Some people go through alot of money, time and effort try to match a Garand by drawing number and manufacturers. they are fighting against history even then because during production it was common for manufacturers to use other companies parts aka a Springfield bolt in a winchester reciever.

If you want a war service rifle, Springfield is the way to go, you can ask them for a WW2 Serial number and they will try to accomidate.

Garands were not blued, they were parkerized.

If you plan on shooting this (which you will) dont sweat the exterior as much as the interior. you want one with a low throat and muzzle erosion.
CMP will not send you a junker, they check them out and will repair or replace parts if it is messed upo when you recieve it. So if you get one with a cracked stock they will make it right.

Welcome to Garands, they are as fun as Mosins, and just as addictive.

mls343
12-23-2010, 7:59 AM
If you want a WWII receiver, your choices are Springfield or Winchester. Condition of the stock can very as Service Grade designation is not really graded on the condition of the stock (for the most part...) but the readings from the barrel and throat.

BTW - the general conditions of the Service Grades coming out of The CMP has been fantastic. I've recently received 2 Springfields and 2 HRA's that have been just about new condition. All of them, however, have been post WWII production ('55 production), so YMMV.

Going The CMP route is very smart and you will not be disappointed. The only problem with going Curio and Relic is that you think you have cured BRD only to find out C&R disease is much, much worse...

Milsurp Collector
12-23-2010, 10:26 AM
Based on your stated preferences, get a Service Grade Winchester (before it is too late).

http://i625.photobucket.com/albums/tt337/milsurp_collector/CMP%20Birch/a13adbc8.jpg

One page of the order form/application has to have a notarized signature the first time you send it in. It is good for 3 years.

stevie
12-23-2010, 10:51 AM
If you want a WWII get the Winchester. Any service grade should meet to your satisfaction. The Springfield may or may not be WWII, HRA will be post WWII.

Best bet for matching will be a correct grade HRA or Springfield. A post WWII service grade HRA or Springfiled MAY get you close. The WWII service grade Springfield or Winchester will probably have been rebuilt at least once and will probably not be close to matching.

Anchors
12-23-2010, 2:25 PM
The Winny's are more expensive right? Is it really that much better than a Springer for the WWII serial?

Milsurp Collector
12-23-2010, 3:24 PM
The Winny's are more expensive right? Is it really that much better than a Springer for the WWII serial?

Not better, rarer. By the end of World War II, Springfield Armory had produced approx. 3.5 million M1 Rifles, Winchester approx. 500,000.

You newer guys don't realize how good you have it right now. The CMP didn't have Winchesters available for several years. When word got out a couple of years ago that they would have some Winchesters for sale there was a frenzy. They sold out quickly. I had to wait several months to get mine.

This is currently a Golden Age at the CMP with these Greek Air Force returns. When they are gone people are going to look back and say "wow, they had SAs and Winchesters and HRAs available, in fantastic condition. I should have bought more when I had the chance."

World War II era Springfield Armory M1s are "common". If you want WWII era and you don't have any M1s and you have a choice between a SA and a Winchester, get the Winchester (while you can).

stevie
12-23-2010, 3:31 PM
Heck, I remember when there was collector, service and rack grade. You choose between the grades and USGI or Danish. There was no pick on manufacturer If you were lucky a post-it with S/N range was honored.

Before that was the DCM, you only has one choice, and I waited 18 months for that rifle. At that time you were limited one rifle in your life. Times have changed.

Anchors
12-23-2010, 4:17 PM
Heck, I remember when there was collector, service and rack grade. You choose between the grades and USGI or Danish. There was no pick on manufacturer If you were lucky a post-it with S/N range was honored.

Before that was the DCM, you only has one choice, and I waited 18 months for that rifle. At that time you were limited one rifle in your life. Times have changed.

Yeah, I wish they had the Correct and Collector grade rifles.

I just noticed the Winchesters are $200 more, I thought they were $100 more.
I still want one though. All Winchesters are War Era then, correct?

I think I will buy a Service Grade Winchester and request a USGI stock via post it?

Should I request a low serial number or does it really matter at that point since it will be WWII era?

stevie
12-23-2010, 4:26 PM
All Winchesters will be WWII. I would not be too worried about S/N range. Good luck on the stock.

Yes 200.00 above cost of other service grades.

Anchors
12-23-2010, 8:04 PM
That's it, the glock must go! haha.

cruddymutt
12-23-2010, 9:35 PM
I sent off for my 1st CMP Garand last week. I ordered a Service Grade Springfield and asked for USGI wood and a WW2 serial. We will see what I get. OP you will also need a Jurat form with that notary but your notary should know that.

Anchors
12-23-2010, 9:54 PM
I sent off for my 1st CMP Garand last week. I ordered a Service Grade Springfield and asked for USGI wood and a WW2 serial. We will see what I get. OP you will also need a Jurat form with that notary but your notary should know that.

What do I need to get notarized and what is a Jurat form?!

Milsurp Collector
12-24-2010, 8:13 AM
What do I need to get notarized...


One page of the order form/application has to have a notarized signature the first time you send it in. It is good for 3 years.

...and what is a Jurat form?!
http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=372250&highlight=jurat

I keep looking at my new guns next and thinking, "I can get one of these anytime I want." Then I look at the C&R stuff and think "This is a piece of history, once these are gone, they are gone forever."



You got that right. ;)

XRNbcCobcvA&rel=0

Anchors
12-24-2010, 6:11 PM
http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=372250&highlight=jurat



You got that right. ;)

XRNbcCobcvA&rel=0

Thanks for that link.
And that video is awesome!
I have never seen that show, but it looks even better than Saving Private Ryan. I didn't want the clip to end haha.

NRAhighpowershooter
12-24-2010, 8:03 PM
just remember if you order a winchester... just about the only parts on the rifle being WRA will be the receiver...

Anchors
12-24-2010, 8:38 PM
just remember if you order a winchester... just about the only parts on the rifle being WRA will be the receiver...

Yeah I just read that. That and the fact that the Winchesters had a lot of production problems.
I would still get it if it was all Winchester. But if I just get a Springfield rifle with a Winchester receiver, what is the point?

I think I will throw the extra $200 toward ammo (which is expensive?! Jeez).

I just finished buying my membership to GCA and it said they will send my info to CMP on Monday.
So do I need to include a copy of my membership card in my order packet?

Noonanda
12-24-2010, 9:10 PM
So do I need to include a copy of my membership card in my order packet?

no they should take care of it at GCA, they are a good outfit. You can request a War dated Springfield, but the only thing that might be WW2 dated is the reciever based on the Serial #. for example, my M-1 was made in Feb of 1945 so it might have gotten into some of the fighting in the pacific like Okinawa, but it was also rebarreled in late 51 so I know it most likely spent some time in Korea.

Anchors
12-24-2010, 9:23 PM
no they should take care of it at GCA, they are a good outfit. You can request a War dated Springfield, but the only thing that might be WW2 dated is the reciever based on the Serial #. for example, my M-1 was made in Feb of 1945 so it might have gotten into some of the fighting in the pacific like Okinawa, but it was also rebarreled in late 51 so I know it most likely spent some time in Korea.

That is still pretty cool! That would be cool if it had been in both. Too bad there's no way to know for sure.

Couldn't I just request "Serial number under 3,000,000."

Then it would definitely be WW2 era (or older).

I wonder if any of the oldest serial numbers are still in decent shape and owned by various people.

ro442173
12-24-2010, 9:32 PM
...And dude, watch the Band of Brothers :thumbsup:

Anchors
12-24-2010, 10:32 PM
I will watch it tonight!

Okay. I've got the universal order form filled out.

I just need to:
Sign it in front of notary (but I need them to do the jurat form as opposed to simple acknowledgment. I hope my bank's free notary can provide this).
(Black and white copies okay?)
Photocopy my passport.
Photocopy my C&R
Photocopy GCA membership (I know you said you don't need it, but they said there is no exception to having a copy in the packet. So I will just wait until it gets here).

Credit card info is filled out.
Checklist filled out.
Send to CMP in a large envelope with a stick-it note on the order form requesting "Would like WW2 serial number and USGI stock, please. Thanks!"

All good?!

pro-nra
12-25-2010, 9:22 AM
I am blesses as CMP have my record. All I need to do is order rifle or ammo through the internet and CMP sends it to me and not other paperwork required.

Milsurp Collector
12-25-2010, 9:30 AM
just remember if you order a winchester... just about the only parts on the rifle being WRA will be the receiver...

Yeah I just read that. That and the fact that the Winchesters had a lot of production problems.
I would still get it if it was all Winchester. But if I just get a Springfield rifle with a Winchester receiver, what is the point?



What NRAhighpowershooter said is right. I lucked out because my CMP Service Grade Winchester came with a WRA op rod, lower band, and rear sight base. It isn't hard to find Winchester parts (except original stocks, barrels, and lockbar sights) if you want to make it more "correct", which I have done:

http://i625.photobucket.com/albums/tt337/milsurp_collector/CMP%20Birch/1401b887.jpg
http://i625.photobucket.com/albums/tt337/milsurp_collector/CMP%20Birch/ae63c5f9.jpg
http://i625.photobucket.com/albums/tt337/milsurp_collector/CMP%20Birch/4129619e.jpg
http://i625.photobucket.com/albums/tt337/milsurp_collector/CMP%20Birch/fbf96133.jpg

I have also obtained a WRA barrel and stock but neither is as good as the current parts so I haven't bothered to install them. My Winchester M1 Rifle and M1 Carbine are two of my best shooters and the ones I use in my gun club's Garand and carbine competitions.

Many guys, once they get their first Garand, decide they want to have


a WWII-era Springfield Armory
a 1950s Springfield Armory
a Winchester
a Harrington & Richardson
an International Harvester


so that's why I recommended getting the Winchester since you also wanted WWII. As I said, Winchesters are rarer than SAs. But if cost is an issue there is nothing wrong with getting a SA to start with.

Orlando
12-25-2010, 12:45 PM
WWII or Post War will be in the same condition within the same grade.
A all correct WW11 rifle (If they had them) would cost several thousand $$$ and up. Only correct garde rifles they have are Post War SA and HRA
I wouldnt waste your money on the Winchester Garands. Fot the most part they are a CMP assembled Garand,
Mine came with a NOS 52 SA barrel that CMP installed. I sent it back as I didnt pay for a CMP built rifle.
Most of the Winchesters will come with a "not very attractive" birch commercial stock.
Dont know that I would worry about asking for a WWII receiver as chances are the rest of the rifle will be post war. Not many of the Service Grades are a WWII anyway. Better chances for one would be with a Field Grade but then you run the risk of a worn out barrel and bad wood
I would go for a Service Grade in either SA or HRA and ask for USGI wood.
JMO
Good Luck

Anchors
12-25-2010, 1:41 PM
I will watch it tonight!

Okay. I've got the universal order form filled out.

I just need to:
Sign it in front of notary (but I need them to do the jurat form as opposed to simple acknowledgment. I hope my bank's free notary can provide this).
(Black and white copies okay?)
Photocopy my passport.
Photocopy my C&R
Photocopy GCA membership (I know you said you don't need it, but they said there is no exception to having a copy in the packet. So I will just wait until it gets here).

Credit card info is filled out.
Checklist filled out.
Send to CMP in a large envelope with a stick-it note on the order form requesting "Would like WW2 serial number and USGI stock, please. Thanks!"

All good?!

Okay so I watched the first two episodes of Band of Brothers last night and I'm hooked on it haha (even if some of it is inaccurate). I really like the vets talking in the beginning of each episode.

Yeah I still would like a WW2 receiver and USGI wood.
We'll see what happens as son as the GCA membership and the money come through.

Geodetic
12-25-2010, 7:41 PM
I have 4 service grades: 2 HRA's and 2 Springfields. One of the Springfields is a 1943 production and is noticeably rougher than the other 3. "Service Grade" is based more on muzzle and throat erosion than appearance and finish. Odd's are you will want at least 2 Garands. It tends to be addicting. Hope you get a good one. They are a blast to shoot. Nothing says "I'm Serious" like a 8 rounds of semi auto 30-06!:D

Sunday
12-25-2010, 8:25 PM
The problem is once you get the Garand and start shooting with it, nothing else but a 1903 Springfield will do when you want to give the Garand a day off from range duty. There is a certain feel to the old girls that the new rifles are missing. Though nothing is easier to shoot than the AR types. I have always wondered how much a brand new made in the USA with top quality metals and forgings and wood, would Garand cost?

Anchors
12-25-2010, 10:31 PM
The problem is once you get the Garand and start shooting with it, nothing else but a 1903 Springfield will do when you want to give the Garand a day off from range duty. There is a certain feel to the old girls that the new rifles are missing. Though nothing is easier to shoot than the AR types. I have always wondered how much a brand new made in the USA with top quality metals and forgings and wood Garand would cost?

I have wondered that too. If the real deal is $600 bucks.
I would think if they wanted to they could reproduce it and sell it for less than that, but of course that won't happen. (If it did I'm sure it would be a top selling rifle though).

In the gun world if you make something quality and do it cheap it can be just as profitable as something overpriced of the same quality.
Look at Spike's AR uppers. I have one and it is great and for $500 I can't complain.

Anchors
12-25-2010, 10:32 PM
I have 4 service grades: 2 HRA's and 2 Springfields. One of the Springfields is a 1943 production and is noticeably rougher than the other 3. "Service Grade" is based more on muzzle and throat erosion than appearance and finish. Odd's are you will want at least 2 Garands. It tends to be addicting. Hope you get a good one. They are a blast to shoot. Nothing says "I'm Serious" like a 8 rounds of semi auto 30-06!:D

Do you have any pictures of the two springfields side by side?
Are they both USGI stock?

Just curious as to what I'm getting into.

Milsurp Collector
12-26-2010, 2:27 AM
I have wondered that too. If the real deal is $600 bucks.
I would think if they wanted to they could reproduce it and sell it for less than that, but of course that won't happen. (If it did I'm sure it would be a top selling rifle though).



Several years ago Springfield Armory, Inc. (current maker of 1911s and M1As) made new M1 Rifles with cast receivers, but they couldn't compete with genuine M1s from the CMP so they no longer make/sell them, although you often see them at gun shows as "commemorative" Garands

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=207177213
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=207951504

For comparison, a bare forged M14-type receiver alone costs almost $900

http://www.lrbarms.com/m14receivers.html

Anchors
12-26-2010, 3:08 AM
Several years ago Springfield Armory, Inc. (current maker of 1911s and M1As) made new M1 Rifles with cast receivers, but they couldn't compete with genuine M1s from the CMP so they no longer make/sell them, although you often see them at gun shows as "commemorative" Garands

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=207177213
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=207951504

For comparison, a bare forged M14-type receiver alone costs almost $900

http://www.lrbarms.com/m14receivers.html

Ah, so that is where those commemorative ones came to life.
I bet money when CMP is out that Springfield will make new ones for the lovely price of somewhere in the ballpark of their M1A.

Yeah, there are a couple 1911/M14 styles that I have had my eye on for a while, but damn M14s are expensive.
Too bad all the real ones were machine guns and we dumped a bunch of them in the 90s :(
Would have been a great thing to keep CMP alive while providing the next great rifle in American history. (btw CMP is the best idea ever, I wish I knew it had existed when I was younger).

Orlando
12-26-2010, 5:35 AM
There is no way a company could make a new commercial Garand for anywhere close to what a Service Grade sells for. They might be able to build one for close to what a Correct Grade goes for but it wouldnt have a forged receiver.
WWII Garands always have rougher machining than Post War rifles. They were pumping them out as fast as they could as there was a war going on. If you want a WWII rifle thats to be expected.
If you want a near perfect pretty rifle ,order a Correct Grade, If you want a rifle with some history order a Service Grade.
http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f197/Garandlover/misc/MVC-008S-1.jpg

NRAhighpowershooter
12-26-2010, 8:54 AM
Several years ago Springfield Armory, Inc. (current maker of 1911s and M1As) made new M1 Rifles with cast receivers, but they couldn't compete with genuine M1s from the CMP so they no longer make/sell them, although you often see them at gun shows as "commemorative" Garands

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=207177213
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=207951504

For comparison, a bare forged M14-type receiver alone costs almost $900

http://www.lrbarms.com/m14receivers.html

Actually.. SA Inc. bought up almost all the Danish Garand parts kits remaining out there.. reparked the parts and made their M1's (Can't call 'em Garand 'taint right). the reason they stopped was because they ran out of parts....

SanPedroShooter
12-26-2010, 9:14 AM
I will watch it tonight!

Okay. I've got the universal order form filled out.

I just need to:
Sign it in front of notary (but I need them to do the jurat form as opposed to simple acknowledgment. I hope my bank's free notary can provide this).
(Black and white copies okay?)
Photocopy my passport.
Photocopy my C&R
Photocopy GCA membership (I know you said you don't need it, but they said there is no exception to having a copy in the packet. So I will just wait until it gets here).

Credit card info is filled out.
Checklist filled out.
Send to CMP in a large envelope with a stick-it note on the order form requesting "Would like WW2 serial number and USGI stock, please. Thanks!"

All good?!

The notary i went to did not provide me with a jurat, so my order was held up. I went back to the same guy, and he was out of jurat forms, so he printed an acknowledgement off the internet, filled it out and stamped it. The cmp accepted it. If you go to the bank, you shouldnt have any problems, just make sure you get the acknowledgement form or jurat stamped and signed. Another notary told me, if it aint stamped, it aint notarized.
The notary i went to was not up on his ****, and since i have never notarized anything, i didnt realize their was a problem. I did think it was funny that he didnt use his stamp, but he filled out the cmp form, so i didnt think there would be a problem.
The combination of my inexperiance and the notarys stupidity should be pretty hard to duplicate, but you just never know...

Geodetic
12-26-2010, 11:49 AM
Heres some photos of my 1943 Springfield: http://picasaweb.google.com/105576149063038811539/1943Garand?authkey=Gv1sRgCK7vkqvRnYezqQE&feat=directlink

Still not a bad looking rifle. Mainly the stock that has seen noticeable abuse. You really can't go wrong with an M1 either way.

Sunday
12-26-2010, 2:01 PM
A Garand could shoot like a dream and still be ugly and still be a Garand. It all depends what you want. You could spend a small fortune turning the rifle into a match grade target rifle if you wanted . I have given up on turning rifles into target rifles I just like to shoot them.

Anchors
12-26-2010, 7:09 PM
Heres some photos of my 1943 Springfield: http://picasaweb.google.com/105576149063038811539/1943Garand?authkey=Gv1sRgCK7vkqvRnYezqQE&feat=directlink

Still not a bad looking rifle. Mainly the stock that has seen noticeable abuse. You really can't go wrong with an M1 either way.

Looks beautiful to me! I don't think there's a thing wrong with that stock.
When I think of a "rough stock" my mind flashes to a beat up mosin with shellac flaking off the handguard and gouges and cracks.
That stock looks perfect to me.
It was in a war, I expect some character on it.
If that is what mine looks like I'll be stocked.
I want a '43, that would be perfect.

Anchors
12-26-2010, 8:04 PM
This got me thinking.
Will we ever see non-automatic military surplus sold to the public again?
Will we see M9, M21, M40, etc? (Beretta 92/Rem 700).
Seems like CMP could sell these instead of getting out of the gun game once M1 are gone since they can't sell M14s.

Orlando
12-27-2010, 3:20 AM
No its not part of their Charter