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View Full Version : What would happen if the Dealer...........


jrara
12-22-2010, 10:10 PM
sold you a gun that is not on the roster?

No single shot exemption mods done to the gun.

Would you get denied at DROS?

Or will you be able to pick up the weapon and if DOJ catches will they ask you to return it?

Ron-Solo
12-22-2010, 10:35 PM
The dealer has to enter an exemption code to process a DROS on a non-roster gun, so it would get noticed then. If he overrode the code, he risks losing his license during an audit. The DROS wouldn't catch it because he overrode the exemption code. When they audit him, and he doesn't have documentation (photocopy of LE ID, etc) he is hung out to dry by DOJ.

Don't know what DOJ would do about the purchaser or if they could require you to surrender it. Interesting question.

Hippo
12-22-2010, 10:54 PM
I remember Turners sold some thumbhole stock mini14s a few years back. DoJ tracked all buyers down and they had to return them to Turners or exchange them for non-thumbholed version.

jtmkinsd
12-22-2010, 11:00 PM
Guns get misidentified sometimes...in many instances an off-roster gun, which differs very little from a rostered one, will be DROSed as the rostered version. It's an honest mistake...which will not show up anywhere...DOJ wouldn't "catch it" because the DROS says it is model X, when in fact it is model Y. Chances of it turning up in an audit are equally small...the auditor would have to notice a non-rostered model number in the bound book (most of them don't know what is and isn't rostered without looking it up themselves) going to an individual who is not roster exempt...and while it could ultimately be caught...the punishment for the dealer would be commensurate with the number of infractions. You may hear a yarn or two about someone having to give up their non-rostered gun because someone along the line realized they weren't supposed to have it...but I know of no instance where this has actually happened.

ke6guj
12-22-2010, 11:05 PM
here's an example. Glock came out with a new variation of one of their models, had a different front mount and mag release IIRC. Some dealers assumed that the roster listing covered that version. After some were sold CADOJ decided that that version was actually off-list. CADOJ sent a letter to all the customers that bought that version and explained that there was a mixup and that they could go to the dealer to have the firearm swapped out for the correct, on-roster version. The letter made it look like they HAD to swap it out, but it was only a request. I also seem to recall that the letter tried to say that if they kept the off-roster version, that they would be prohibited from reselling it in the future, but we dont' see under what PC/regulation would allow them to prohibit you from reselling an off-roster hadngun that was "accidentilly" sold to you by a dealer.

jtmkinsd
12-22-2010, 11:11 PM
here's an example. Glock came out with a new variation of one of their models, had a different front mount and mag release IIRC. Some dealers assumed that the roster listing covered that version. After some were sold CADOJ decided that that version was actually off-list. CADOJ sent a letter to all the customers that bought that version and explained that there was a mixup and that they could go to the dealer to have the firearm swapped out for the correct, on-roster version. The letter made it look like they HAD to swap it out, but it was only a request. I also seem to recall that the letter tried to say that if they kept the off-roster version, that they would be prohibited from reselling it in the future, but we dont' see under what PC/regulation would allow them to prohibit you from reselling an off-roster hadngun that was "accidentilly" sold to you by a dealer.

I do know of the "enmass recall" of non-rostered guns...like you pointed to...but the occasional one that slips by is not going to trigger the DOJ S.W.A.T. team reaction.

Ron-Solo
12-23-2010, 12:33 AM
I remember Turners sold some thumbhole stock mini14s a few years back. DoJ tracked all buyers down and they had to return them to Turners or exchange them for non-thumbholed version.

That's a whole different can of worms and gets into assault weapon issues.

ap3572001
12-23-2010, 8:40 AM
So if a dealer bought an off list pistol ( did now know it was of list) and sold it retail in Ca ( an honest mistake) and someone sends You a letter someday and says that You should return it.

A). Do You HAVE to return it?

B). WHat if You no longer have it? ( Did a PPT to another person in Ca)

This topic makes me what to bring up another question :

Once an OFF LIST HANDGUN IS in physically in the State ( Not stolen , legal to own , just off list) , ANYONE CAN PPT IT TO ANYONE?

I remember sometime ago , I beat this subject to death and still never got a half way good answer.

When a PPT between two people a buyer and the seller takes place at an FFL , does ANYONE look where the gun came from ?

Whatisthis?
12-23-2010, 9:27 AM
If the off list handgun is legally in CA, it can be PPTed with anyone able to buy a handgun. That's the reason for some guns in the marketplace being more expensive; it's the only way for some of us in Cali to acquire off roster handguns, so they can mark up the price a bit.

ap3572001
12-23-2010, 10:09 AM
If the off list handgun is legally in CA, it can be PPTed with anyone able to buy a handgun. That's the reason for some guns in the marketplace being more expensive; it's the only way for some of us in Cali to acquire off roster handguns, so they can mark up the price a bit.

Define legally in Ca? A Reno resident brings His Smith and Wesson model 27 and a GEN4 Glock. Are they legally in Ca?

Antihero47
12-23-2010, 11:13 AM
If both residents have CA ID's I believe the transfer is all good. If someone from another state comes in and tries to do a PPT and they see they are not a CA resident then the guns are subject to the Roster.

Someone correct me if I'm wrong.

ap3572001
12-23-2010, 11:18 AM
If both residents have CA ID's I believe the transfer is all good. If someone from another state comes in and tries to do a PPT and they see they are not a CA resident then the guns are subject to the Roster.

Someone correct me if I'm wrong.


Here is my point.
If a handgun is in CA and the handun is NOT STOLEN or ILLEGAL to own , ANYONE CAN PPT IT TO ANYONE . Tell me if I am wrong?

When to Ca residents go to an FFL to PPT a handgun (that is not sotolen and IS legal to own) does anyone look where it came from ????

dascoyne
12-23-2010, 11:34 AM
here's an example. Glock came out with a new variation of one of their models, had a different front mount and mag release IIRC. Some dealers assumed that the roster listing covered that version. After some were sold CADOJ decided that that version was actually off-list. CADOJ sent a letter to all the customers that bought that version and explained that there was a mixup and that they could go to the dealer to have the firearm swapped out for the correct, on-roster version. The letter made it look like they HAD to swap it out, but it was only a request. I also seem to recall that the letter tried to say that if they kept the off-roster version, that they would be prohibited from reselling it in the future, but we dont' see under what PC/regulation would allow them to prohibit you from reselling an off-roster hadngun that was "accidentilly" sold to you by a dealer.Gee. Really? "A person really close to me" who bought such a pistol when they first came out never got such a letter.

Antihero47
12-23-2010, 12:01 PM
Here is my point.
If a handgun is in CA and the handun is NOT STOLEN or ILLEGAL to own , ANYONE CAN PPT IT TO ANYONE . Tell me if I am wrong?

When to Ca residents go to an FFL to PPT a handgun (that is not sotolen and IS legal to own) does anyone look where it came from ????

If the handgun is owned by a CA resident and is off roster it can be ppt'd to any ca resident who has a HSC card. If it is not on the roster and someone from another state owns it it can not be ppt'd to you.

When CA residents go to PPT a firearm they are asked for their ID's to be copied and info put into the computer. Then they have you fill out paperwork indicating that you are lawfully the owner or purchaser of said firearm.

ke6guj
12-23-2010, 12:09 PM
So if a dealer bought an off list pistol ( did now know it was of list) and sold it retail in Ca ( an honest mistake) and someone sends You a letter someday and says that You should return it.

A). Do You HAVE to return it? from what I recall, the letter requested you return it, but did not demand it.


B). WHat if You no longer have it? ( Did a PPT to another person in Ca)IIRC, they requested that you forward the info to the new owner, or inform CADOJ who it was sold to. I don't recall the specifics.

This topic makes me what to bring up another question :

Once an OFF LIST HANDGUN IS in physically in the State ( Not stolen , legal to own , just off list) , ANYONE CAN PPT IT TO ANYONE?

I remember sometime ago , I beat this subject to death and still never got a half way good answer.

When a PPT between two people a buyer and the seller takes place at an FFL , does ANYONE look where the gun came from ?if that ANYONE selling it is a CA-resident, yes it can be PPTed to anyone else that is a CA-resident and legal to own a handgun.

No, past history of the handgun does not really matter.

ke6guj
12-23-2010, 12:12 PM
Define legally in Ca? A Reno resident brings His Smith and Wesson model 27 and a GEN4 Glock. Are they legally in Ca?yes, they are legally in CA, if the intent is not to sell it. If it was imported with the intent to sell an off-roster handgun, they they are not legally in CA.

If both residents have CA ID's I believe the transfer is all good. If someone from another state comes in and tries to do a PPT and they see they are not a CA resident then the guns are subject to the Roster.

Someone correct me if I'm wrong.correct.


Here is my point.
If a handgun is in CA and the handun is NOT STOLEN or ILLEGAL to own , ANYONE CAN PPT IT TO ANYONE . Tell me if I am wrong?as long as both ANYONE's are CA-residents, YES.

When to Ca residents go to an FFL to PPT a handgun (that is not sotolen and IS legal to own) does anyone look where it came from ????not normally.

Gee. Really? "A person really close to me" who bought such a pistol when they first came out never got such a letter.I don't know if CADOJ tracked down every person that bought one of those, but I do remember seeing that letter in the past. Might have just been Turner's customers that got it.

ke6guj
12-23-2010, 12:29 PM
I can't find the letter, but here is some old conversation about it, http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=134625

plan-b
12-23-2010, 1:24 PM
Weren't some Kahr P380s sold earlier in the year when Kahr got it on the roster, but then it turned out that it'd be a CA specific version and that the ones sold weren't genuinely legit to sell? I wonder if those folks got letters.

Whatisthis?
12-23-2010, 6:43 PM
Define legally in Ca? A Reno resident brings His Smith and Wesson model 27 and a GEN4 Glock. Are they legally in Ca?

Ya, sorry, I didn't really define the legal part, just assumed. My bad. Ke6guj explained the "legal" part very well.

ap3572001
12-24-2010, 8:31 AM
Ya, sorry, I didn't really define the legal part, just assumed. My bad. Ke6guj explained the "legal" part very well.
Yes, I understand it all..... About the intent , about how the off list handgun got here, the HSC cards , etc.

I guess to make my point I will need a crazy ( extreme) example :)

.... A Ca resident "A" ( who has HSC card and able to own handguns) is walking down the street. An HK45 or a GEN4 Glock( NOT REPORTED STOLEN AND NOT INVOLVED IN ANY CRIME) falls form the sky and lends in front of Him...

He picks it up and than meets another Ca resident "B" ( who also has HSC and is able to own handguns) .

They both go to a local CA FFL and perform a PPT of this pistol. From "A" to "B".

Won't anyone know or see that the pistol is not in the name of Ca resident "A" ????? That is is NOT His gun.

ke6guj
12-24-2010, 12:46 PM
AFAIK, CADOJ does not check past history of the handgun (except maybe to make sure it isn't stolen) so it would just be transfered to B. How A got it doesn't normally matter. The fact that it may or may not be currently registered to A is not normally a problem. I won't speak in absolutes since I don't have knowledge about every single PPT DROS done in the past, so I can't say that it would never be a problem if it wasn't registered to A, but I have never heard of a PPT DROS denied because it wasn't.

ap3572001
12-24-2010, 12:58 PM
AFAIK, CADOJ does not check past history of the handgun (except maybe to make sure it isn't stolen) so it would just be transfered to B. How A got it doesn't normally matter. The fact that it may or may not be currently registered to A is not normally a problem. I won't speak in absolutes since I don't have knowledge about every single PPT DROS done in the past, so I can't say that it would never be a problem if it wasn't registered to A, but I have never heard of a PPT DROS denied because it wasn't.

I see. That's what I was talking about. They check where it will go , not where it came from.

ke6guj
12-24-2010, 1:56 PM
I see. That's what I was talking about. They check where it will go , not where it came from.right, but just because they don't check doesn't mean that you can violate the law in how it gets there.

ap3572001
12-24-2010, 4:12 PM
right, but just because they don't check doesn't mean that you can violate the law in how it gets there.

I know that . I just wanted an understanding that the selling owner does not need to show how they obtained a pistol. I have a PPK and BHP that were both brought back from WWII. If I PPT them , I don't need to show who brought them . DO I ? :)