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diddler
07-22-2006, 7:05 AM
All,

Is it ok for a "regular joe" gun owner to modify a magazine permanently to accept fewer rounds?

For instance, can I drive to Nevada, buy a 20rd mag, weld in a pin or something so it would only accept 10rds then drive back to the PRK?

Legal or bad ju-ju?

Thanks!

Ryan

SemiAutoSam
07-22-2006, 7:09 AM
It may be legal but why tempt fate just buy the ten round mags for what ever you have.

Btw what type of firearm are you in need of mags for ?

Everyone has the 10 round AR mags are you searching for AK mags or FAL, HK maybe ??

diddler
07-22-2006, 6:49 PM
I'm considering trying my hand at duplicating the "rear loading" magazine as described on that Cali-legal CAK-147. Since they're not willing to sell it seperately, I don't see why I couldn't make one for my own use. Just can't figure out the legality.

Seems like if you can use a 20 round mag, pin it somehow so the follower can't go down past 10, make the hole in the back to load thru and figure out some way to pull the spring down like a 22LR Browning Buckmark pistol. So far that sounds like the best way to build an AK with the few options I've seen so far.

Ryan

JPglee1
07-22-2006, 7:07 PM
I still don't understand how they limit it from holding more than 10rds if its top loaded... The follower has to come down pretty far to put 10 in thru the back, I when I played with the concept I was able to put about 14 in thru the top when the rear would only take 10... I wonder how Atlantic dealt with this issue...


J

diddler
07-22-2006, 8:10 PM
I still don't understand how they limit it from holding more than 10rds if its top loaded... The follower has to come down pretty far to put 10 in thru the back, I when I played with the concept I was able to put about 14 in thru the top when the rear would only take 10

J

You've tried this mod yourself before?

I'm trying to wrap my brain around this, and of course it hurts that I've never held an AK or an AK magazine before in my life. I'm working off the concept of the AR magazine and hoping the general concept works on any generic spring loaded mag. Not only that, this ENTIRE concept is nothing more than a visual in my head, without any practical evidence! Just a conceptualization, I'm trying to reverse engineer something I've never seen. That said, I hope the following makes sense! :D

Imagine holding an unmodified 20 round mag in your hand, then load it with 10 rounds. The follower is now somewhere around half way down towards the baseplate. Now put a permanent stop inside and underneath the follower so it can't descend further.

Then, using your x-ray vision (or some quality depth measuring tools) find where the last cartridge sits on top of the follower, then cut or drill a hole right at that point on the back/spine of the mag body.

Finally, attach something to the spring that protrudes outside of the mag body, perhaps a short peg on either side of the mag that comes out through two grooves cut vertically in the sides of the mag. Grab the pegs and pull the spring down. The follower drops with the spring until it bottoms out on the stop added in the first step. Everything above the follower is now empty space and you load through the hole in the rear. Release the pegs and the spring pushes the follower and cartridges up against the feed lips.

Sound reasonable? I don't see how this concept will allow any more than the 10 rounds. There could still be dozens of snafu's in the design. For instance, what happens if you release the spring and instead of "jamming" the cartridges correctly against the feed lips it just forces the top round up between them? Only release the spring when the bolt is closed to make a "roof" on the top of the mag? Could you even expect that loading the next round will correctly push the previous one upwards, or do you need to flip the rifle upside down and let them fall down against the feed lips by gravity?

Advice needed! :)

Ryan

JPglee1
07-22-2006, 8:14 PM
You've tried this mod yourself before?



Ryan


Yah I tried it, but its getting late and my wife is wanting me to spend time with her, Ill explain more tommorow or later tonite... Its like this: when you put the follower down 1/2 way like you said, to load 10rounds on top of it, theres still room between the top most round and the feed lips of the mag until you release the follower, because the hole in the mag has to be about 1.5" below the feed lips...

This isn't a big deal if you ALWAYS back load it, but if some genius pulls the top cover and goes thru the top, that room that was above the follower when back loaded can now be filled with 4 more rounds from the top... follow me?


J

blacklisted
07-22-2006, 8:21 PM
Yah I tried it, but its getting late and my wife is wanting me to spend time with her, Ill explain more tommorow or later tonite... Its like this: when you put the follower down 1/2 way like you said, to load 10rounds on top of it, theres still room between the top most round and the feed lips of the mag until you release the follower, because the hole in the mag has to be about 1.5" below the feed lips...

This isn't a big deal if you ALWAYS back load it, but if some genius pulls the top cover and goes thru the top, that room that was above the follower when back loaded can now be filled with 4 more rounds from the top... follow me?


J

I get it...maybe the magazine only holds 5-6 when loaded that way.

diddler
07-22-2006, 9:03 PM
when you put the follower down 1/2 way like you said, to load 10rounds on top of it, theres still room between the top most round and the feed lips of the mag until you release the follower

J

I guess thats the part I don't understand, why is there still room between the top round and the feed lips when the 10th round is squeezed in between the 9 cartridges above and the follower just below it?

Just a guess here, I'm thinking that for the hole to be accessible with the magazine pinned in place it would have to be down low enough on the spine of the magazine to clear the trigger guard and magazine release, and when the hole is at that position you've already got more than enough room above for 10 rounds. Is this correct, or have I missed the boat?

If that is correct, what if the hole was made in the FRONT spine of the mag, just beneath the receiver? Of course the cartridges would be less inclined to just work their way into place. Loaded from the rear tip first they have an inherent tubular "wedge" shape that pushes obstacles (namely the previously loaded cartridges) aside, as opposed to pushing it primer end first backwards into the mag.

So if thats the case, what about a "side load" design? Cut a slightly oversized cartridge shaped hole in one side of the mag just above the follower as it sits on its stop.

God, I gotta get my hands on some of these things so I can do more than conceptualize. As JPglee1 pointed out, someone has figured out a way to do it. Until I can see it myself or have someone else describe it in detail, I'm mostly throwing punches in the dark.

Ryan

JHC
07-22-2006, 9:38 PM
I slaughtered one of my mags awhile back in a similar experiment. I found that if you load upside down you can get 8 rounds in but not everytime, it takes 4 or 5 trys to get the cartridges to lay correctly as they have nothing but the bottom of the bolt carrier to rest against. If you load righ-side up you will have to have the load port higher and will not get as many cartridges in. I'm dying to see someone post their rifle from atlantic so we can see how they did it.

diddler
07-22-2006, 10:07 PM
I'm dying to see someone post their rifle from atlantic so we can see how they did it.

Amen to that. I'm not hoping to re-invent the wheel unless I have to.

What happened with your experiments with loading right side up? Why did the port need to be higher, and why were the number of rounds fewer?

Thanks!

Ryan

JHC
07-23-2006, 6:02 AM
Loading right side up seems to work as long as you can drop the cartridges in letting them drop to the follower which keeps them aligned but you will need the load port up high to do so you can load all of them in, the problem is that the port would have to be so high that it would be in the receiver.

I also tried loading right-side up with the port at the bottom and using each cartridge to push the one before it up by the next slipping underneath and all that did was crossed them up, I think thats due to the double stack design.

I'm terrible at explaining things so I will try to post some pics of my mags so you can see what doesn't work, someone smarter than me will figure it out eventually, but for now field stripping seems like a pretty easy alternative for loading if you have to have that pistol grip

JHC
07-23-2006, 6:14 AM
Here's a pic of my experiment, the loading port is oblong so you can load either side of the double stack. The red line represents the receiver and trigger-guard. As you can see it doesn't take much room at the top of the magazine to get 10 rounds in.

JHC
07-23-2006, 6:17 AM
Here is a pic of a stripped magazine so you can get an idea of how long the follower is

diddler
07-23-2006, 10:34 AM
Well, I can see we're on the same page, what you built is almost exactly what I had in mind. The only difference is that I was planning to have a way to pull down on the spring itself instead of the follower, and I was hoping to have a little sideways notch I could push the spring pins into at the end of its travel, to hold the spring compressed so I'd have both hands to load.

Of course that doesn't address the problems you've explained about the rounds crossing up with the "load upwards against gravity" design I was thinking about.

Ok, how about this: Add two vertical plates inside to turn it into a single stack magazine instead of a double stack. Perhaps they'd curve at the very top to force the top-most cartridge against the feed lip on one side.

Or even simpler, just one plate that forces the cartridges over to one side instead of two plates that center the rounds. That way they can only be stacked in-line, and will automatically ride the rounds up against the feed lip on that given side. Of course with either design you'd have to make a new follower and possibly a new spring that would fit up into that narrower passage. But the follower could be a simple design since it wouldn't have to correctly feed and juggle a double stack of cartridges.

Or even better, is there any chance someone has already made a single stack magazine for the AK?

Well, I've run that idea up the flagpole. Anyone care to salute it? :) Are we getting stupidly complex yet? Thank you DOJ, my government making life easier for me!

Ryan

JPglee1
07-23-2006, 12:30 PM
http://i5.tinypic.com/20s95sj.jpg

OK... see the distance from the feed lips to the hole in the back of the mag?? Thats what I was talking about.

If you let the follower go down far enough from the new hole to stack in 10rds from the back, there's gonna be enough room above the follower to add more rounds if top-loaded...

You pull the tab down and stack your ten rounds in the back, when you put in your tenth round (thru the back, mag in gun, gun horizontal/normal) you still have approx 1.5" from the top of that round to the feed lips in the mag.

When you let go of the follower, that last round (and all the rest) move up the approx 1.5" and contact the feed lips. This is great if you are back loading only, you can't get more than 10 in...

BUT, if you were to pull down the follower, stack in your 10rds thru the back, then once the 10th round is in thru the back. you could take off the top cover, and you'd still have room for at least 2 more rounds (more like 3-4 in my testing) by pushing them in from the top...

The reason this happens is because the distance from the feed lips to the follower when you have that last round loaded thru the back, to make it all work.


Im really hoping you guys are understanding what I'm saying here... If not, PLEASE put the mag in your gun, rear load 10rds, then take of the top cover and without changing anything see if you can top load a couple more.. I bet you can.



J

diddler
07-23-2006, 5:24 PM
Ok, I think I finally get what you're referring to but I don't think it holds true with the design concept I'm describing.

I believe what you're describing (and what may be in the picture posted by JHC, its hard to tell) is having the hole for the loading port right up near the trigger guard and magazine catch. The first round you would load in the empty mag would be at the bottom of the stack, right on top of the follower. The tenth round would be laid on top of the previous nine, release the spring and yeah, it would travel up into the receiver the extra 1.5" you're talking about.

My design has the load hole at the bottom. If the rifle were held in a normal fashion each round added to the bottom of the stack would push the previous rounds up against the feed lips. Or if the rifle were upside-down, the first round loaded would fall down right against the feed lips, and the tenth round would just squeeze in between the follower and the other 9 rounds already inside sitting directly on the feed lips. No extra space to load any more rounds.

I hope this is making sense, short of drawing a picture on the back of a napkin I'm not sure how else I'm going to get my thoughts across.

So far, the singe stack idea sounds like it would work best at keeping them from jambing up inside, and there should be plenty of space inside a 20 round body to convert to a 10 round single stack. Honestly the only thing I haven't figured out is the spring, since it would have to fit in the more narrow passage.

Ryan