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View Full Version : AB962 ban .22 sale over the internet


justinjames
12-18-2010, 5:24 PM
Hey guys, Does AB962 ban .22 sale over the internet. I looked and couldnt find the article over the controversy about .22 long rifle being a "Pistol Load":rolleyes:. sorry mods if this is in the wrong forum, please move if it is!!!

rromeo
12-18-2010, 5:25 PM
Can somebody add a sticky that nobody knows which ammo is affected by 962?

Cokebottle
12-18-2010, 5:28 PM
Can somebody add a sticky that nobody knows which ammo is affected by 962?
+1

The law does not specify. It simply says "handgun ammunition" (or it may say "common handgun ammunition").
If the word "common" is used, then it would not include 7.62, 5.56, .45LC, or any number of other rounds that are primarily used in long guns, but MAY be used in handguns.

But the law does not specify. The interpretation is left open to the seller.

Just another reason why this is a stupid law that needs to go away.

IrishPirate
12-18-2010, 5:31 PM
the question is not whether it does or does not, but rather whether it will or will not be struck down beofre it actually takes effect.




no one really knows for sure. The entire law was written in the grey area.

Just-in
12-18-2010, 6:50 PM
This is going to be great when trying to buy ammo at big box stores like big 5 where the staff aren't knowledgeable to begin with.

I've had people behind the counter say I had to be 21 to buy birdshot.
then reffered to some riffle ammo as machine gun rounds.

scootle
12-18-2010, 7:26 PM
This is going to be great when trying to buy ammo at big box stores like big 5 where the staff aren't knowledgeable to begin with.

Well, in the case of Face-to-Face sales at Big5, it won't really matter. AB962 only affects internet/mail-order sales.

Nobody knows for sure yet what will happen... I'm sure the legal stuff will heat up in the coming month or so as the deadline looms.

QQQ
12-18-2010, 7:33 PM
Well, in the case of Face-to-Face sales at Big5, it won't really matter. AB962 only affects internet/mail-order sales.

Nobody knows for sure yet what will happen... I'm sure the legal stuff will heat up in the coming month or so as the deadline looms.

It will require thumbprints and record-keeping for face-to-face sales from stores.
And I'm not very optimistic about it going away in a month. Buy now.

CALI SHOT DOC
12-18-2010, 7:34 PM
Well, in the case of Face-to-Face sales at Big5, it won't really matter. AB962 only affects internet/mail-order sales.

Nobody knows for sure yet what will happen... I'm sure the legal stuff will heat up in the coming month or so as the deadline looms.

it also affects local business'. Ammo must be behind a counter or something where it can't be touched by the consumer and an ID and fingerprint will be mandatory also. Ive asked 3 big5s and all said they are going to continue to sell ammo.

XDRoX
12-18-2010, 7:51 PM
Can somebody add a sticky that nobody knows which ammo is affected by 962?

You just made my Sig.:D

erratikmind
12-18-2010, 8:25 PM
The 22lr round is my main range round for my conversion kits and rimfire handguns and rifles. Being semi retired and planning on full retirement this coming May, I have been buying cases of 22lr on a regular basis, this past year. I placed my final internet order for 10k rounds, this morning. LOL . . . I received a case via UPS, yesterday.

I made a large centerfire ammo purchase (3 hand truck loads) of 9mm, .40 S&W, and .223 at the last Cow Palace gun show. The next one will be next in January.

If the situation with AB 962 changes . . . Wonderful! . . . If not, I am flush on ammo for my 3 weekly range sessions for quite some time to come. I simply want to be able to enjoy shooting without rationing my ammo. ;)

erratikmind
12-18-2010, 8:31 PM
The 22lr round is my main range round for my conversion kits and rimfire handguns and rifles. Being semi retired and planning on full retirement this coming May, I have been buying cases of 22lr on a regular basis, this past year. I placed my final internet order for 10k rounds, this morning. LOL . . . I received a case via UPS, yesterday.

I made a large centerfire ammo purchase (3 hand truck loads) of 9mm, .40 S&W, and .223 at the last Cow Palace gun show. The next one will be next in January.

If the situation with AB 962 changes . . . Wonderful! . . . If not, I am flush on ammo for my 3 weekly range sessions for quite some time to come. I simply want to be able to enjoy shooting without rationing my ammo. ;)

rromeo
12-19-2010, 6:12 AM
You just made my Sig.:DI'm very proud of this moment. 11 years on the internet and I've finally been quoted in a sig.

I know the search feature doesn't always work like you want it to, but sometimes the answer is on the first or even second page of threads. I guess I'm old fashioned. The first forum I joined many years ago was quite strict about searching and starting dupe threads.

jackandblood
12-19-2010, 8:30 AM
so like this thing really has a chance in hell of passing or what? 500-555 rd boxes not too concerned about, turners and big5 do decent. Velocitors, Aguila specialty, and .22wmr in general would be the sticking point.

Someone please PM the current state of this legislation. I'm stocked with rimfire, but if this thing goes through, I want to have a decent stash of centerfire ammo for future prospects. Any info would be gladly welcomed. Thanks.

Cokebottle
12-19-2010, 10:21 AM
so like this thing really has a chance in hell of passing or what? 500-555 rd boxes not too concerned about, turners and big5 do decent. Velocitors, Aguila specialty, and .22wmr in general would be the sticking point.

Someone please PM the current state of this legislation. I'm stocked with rimfire, but if this thing goes through, I want to have a decent stash of centerfire ammo for future prospects. Any info would be gladly welcomed. Thanks.
It passed, Arnold signed it.
This happened in late 2009.

The first stage of the law took effect in Feb 2010, when shops were required to lock up handgun ammo behind the counter.
The second stage takes effect Feb 2011, when shops are required to obtain ID and a thumbprint, and store those records for 20 years.
This is also the stage that supposedly bans internet sales (though that is actually questionable).

Current status: Two lawsuits. The first was dismissed because the case wasn't "ripe".... as of right now, there have been no "damages", so the judge dismissed it. There is a 2nd case filed that will move into court next month.

CSACANNONEER
12-19-2010, 10:32 AM
AB962 does not ban any ammo sales! It does, however, force any non FTF ammo sales to be treated similarly to non-FTF alcohol sales are treated. Now, we just have to get the common carriers and vendors to really red the law and understand that it's not a hard law to comply with while still shipping handgun ammo here!

Rigma
12-19-2010, 9:51 PM
Here is something interesting, anyone else had this experience???

Every time I buy bulk box of .22lr at "Wally's" the clerk asks me:

"Is this for a handgun (and or "pistol")???”

Perhaps Wally's is just being prepared and training the people in "Sporting Goods" area early and doing the old "CYA".

Last time someone asked I said "No, it's for my pulse rifle"...and just got a blank stare.

Tough audience at the "Wally's"...

ke6guj
12-19-2010, 11:47 PM
Here is something interesting, anyone else had this experience???

Every time I buy bulk box of .22lr at "Wally's" the clerk asks me:

"Is this for a handgun (and or "pistol")???”

Perhaps Wally's is just being prepared and training the people in "Sporting Goods" area early and doing the old "CYA".
that is so that they don't violate federal law, has nothing to do with upcoming AB962 stuff.


ATF HomeFirearmsFrequently Asked QuestionsConduct of Business — Licensees
Conduct of Business — Licensees

Q: Does a customer have to be a certain age to buy firearms or ammunition from a licensee?
Yes. Under the GCA, long guns and long gun ammunition may be sold only to persons 18 years of age or older. Sales of handguns and ammunition for handguns are limited to persons 21 years of age and older. Although some State and local ordinances have lower age requirements, dealers are bound by the minimum age requirements established by the GCA. If State law or local ordinances establish a higher minimum age, the dealer must observe the higher age requirement.

[18 U.S.C. 922(b)(1), 27 CFR 478.99(b)]

Q: May a licensee sell interchangeable ammunition such as .22 cal. rimfire to a person less than 21 years old?
Yes, provided the buyer is 18 years of age or older, and the dealer is satisfied that it is for use in a rifle. If the ammunition is intended for use in a handgun, the 21-year-old minimum age requirement is applicable.
[18 U.S.C. 922(b)(1), 27 CFR 478.99(b)]

rojocorsa
12-20-2010, 6:57 AM
One of the best things I've learned is that no one said that laws had to make sense.

rromeo
12-20-2010, 7:07 AM
I think .410 ammo is probably the most obvious. "This clearly is not handgun ammunition, that box says '.410 handgun,' not this one."

Rigma
12-20-2010, 7:08 PM
that is so that they don't violate federal law, has nothing to do with upcoming AB962 stuff.



[18 U.S.C. 922(b)(1), 27 CFR 478.99(b)]

That makes sense...except for the fact that I'm usually also buying several boxes of handgun ammo as well...and they are only concerned about the .22???

ke6guj
12-20-2010, 7:44 PM
I think .410 ammo is probably the most obvious. "This clearly is not handgun ammunition, that box says '.410 handgun,' not this one."

why would it be obvious? They make .410 handguns and you can use standard .410 shells in it. It just happens that there is at least one vendor that is making a .410 shell "designed" for handgun usage. The fact that we can't own them in CA, without great difficulty, does not mean that Walmart can just ignore the requirement that you be 21 to buy .410 handgun ammo. Remember that much of this stuff is programmed in nationwide, in order to comply with federal law, so they wouldn't neccessarily make an adjustment to remove that question from 410 ammo, since they don't think anyone in CA would buy it for a handgun.



That makes sense...except for the fact that I'm usually also buying several boxes of handgun ammo as well...and they are only concerned about the .22???

I'm not familiar with the exact wording of the POS system that wal-mart uses, but it might be that "handgun only" ammo just prompts the checker "is the buyer over 21?" and if you look like an old fart, they just check YES and move on. but on "dual-use" ammo like .22lr, it may be that the POS initially asks, handgun or long gun. Then, based on that answer, it procedes to the "over 21?" or "over 18?" question. And with "rifle only" ammo, it might just ask "over 18?". Its been years since I bought ammo from walmart, so I don't know how the system is currently set up. And it might be something as simple asthe SKU of the handgun ammo you bought was improperly not tagged in the system with a minimum age requirement.

Librarian
12-20-2010, 8:17 PM
Can somebody add a sticky that nobody knows which ammo is affected by 962?

Like this one?

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=374467

rromeo
12-21-2010, 5:47 AM
why would it be obvious? They make .410 handguns and you can use standard .410 shells in it. It just happens that there is at least one vendor that is making a .410 shell "designed" for handgun usage. The fact that we can't own them in CA, without great difficulty, does not mean that Walmart can just ignore the requirement that you be 21 to buy .410 handgun ammo. Remember that much of this stuff is programmed in nationwide, in order to comply with federal law, so they wouldn't neccessarily make an adjustment to remove that question from 410 ammo, since they don't think anyone in CA would buy it for a handgun.

It sounded funnier in my head.

shadow65
12-21-2010, 6:02 AM
I really feel bad for you guys behind the lines and the ridiculous laws and law makers you have to deal with. So much misinformation and politicians trying to make a name for themselves in the eyes of the ignorant and fearful.
You guys hang in there!

WTSGDYBBR
12-21-2010, 6:16 PM
Just got a Email from Cabelas "Only 30 Days Before AB 962 Becomes reality - Load Up Now !

jackandblood
12-21-2010, 9:15 PM
Just remind Big5 employee LR stands for Long Rifle. Give'um a minute to settle in. then should be golden.

Rigma
12-21-2010, 11:24 PM
I'm not familiar with the exact wording of the POS system that wal-mart uses, but it might be that "handgun only" ammo just prompts the checker "is the buyer over 21?" and if you look like an old fart, they just check YES and move on. but on "dual-use" ammo like .22lr, it may be that the POS initially asks, handgun or long gun. Then, based on that answer, it procedes to the "over 21?" or "over 18?" question. And with "rifle only" ammo, it might just ask "over 18?". Its been years since I bought ammo from walmart, so I don't know how the system is currently set up. And it might be something as simple asthe SKU of the handgun ammo you bought was improperly not tagged in the system with a minimum age requirement.

Makes complete sense and fits with my experience. Can't blame Wally's too much for trying to be in compliance with the evolving mess. The "mess" is what has me concerned.

When laws become so ambiguous that nobody has clarity....well then welcome to gun control laws I guess...

donw
12-22-2010, 6:59 AM
what amazes me is the fact that not ONE California legislator was voted out this last election! the people of California were dumb enough to RE-elect the very same people who have been keeping us IN THE MESS WE'RE IN!

Izzy43
12-22-2010, 7:17 AM
what amazes me is the fact that not ONE California legislator was voted out this last election! the people of California were dumb enough to RE-elect the very same people who have been keeping us IN THE MESS WE'RE IN!

It's because so many are :taz::taz::taz::taz::taz::taz: and I am not talking about the legislators.

BAGunner
12-22-2010, 9:49 AM
What make you think a new dumbass is better than a old dumbass?

what amazes me is the fact that not ONE California legislator was voted out this last election! the people of California were dumb enough to RE-elect the very same people who have been keeping us IN THE MESS WE'RE IN!

littlejake
12-22-2010, 10:59 AM
We went down this road before with the GCA of 1968. That was the year I turned 21. Except for the fingerprint, the GCA of 1968 had similar ID and recording requirements. We had to do it until 1986.

This did nothing useful under the GCA of 1968 -- then, like now, it's just another hurdle that honest citizens have to endure.

Politicians continually forget the lessons of history and repeat the same mistakes. /rant

And BTW -- the GCA of 1968 did include .22 rimfire because it could be used in handguns. Even the .30 Carbine round because IIRC Ruger made a Blackhawk that fired the round.

1nsanity
12-22-2010, 4:59 PM
I wonder how this will affect private party FTF sales of ammo in classified section. If I’m not mistaken, private FTF sales would still require background check and identity verification?

ke6guj
12-22-2010, 5:03 PM
I wonder how this will affect private party FTF sales of ammo in classified section. If Iím not mistaken, private FTF sales would still require background check and identity verification?why would a private party sale require a BG check when not even a retail sale will require a BG check?

1nsanity
12-22-2010, 5:11 PM
Sorry, I thought the the bill also prohibits the sale to anyone prohibited be that they are a minor or if you have a felony currently which prohibits you from owning a firearm to begin with. So a background check would be required or am I reading wrong?

ke6guj
12-22-2010, 5:18 PM
Sorry, I thought the the bill also prohibits the sale to anyone prohibited be that they are a minor oryes,
SEC. 5. Section 12316 of the Penal Code is amended to read:
12316. (a) (1) Any person, corporation, or dealer who does any of
the following shall be punished by imprisonment in a county jail for
a term not to exceed six months, or by a fine not to exceed one
thousand dollars ($1,000), or by both the imprisonment and fine:
(A) Sells any ammunition or reloaded ammunition to a person under
18 years of age.
(B) Sells any ammunition or reloaded ammunition designed and
intended for use in a handgun to a person under 21 years of age. As
used in this subparagraph, "ammunition" means handgun ammunition as
defined in subdivision (a) of Section 12323. Where ammunition or
reloaded ammunition may be used in both a rifle and a handgun, it may
be sold to a person who is at least 18 years of age, but less than
21 years of age, if the vendor reasonably believes that the
ammunition is being acquired for use in a rifle and not a handgun.
(C) Supplies, delivers, or gives possession of any ammunition to
any minor who he or she knows, or using reasonable care should know,
is prohibited from possessing that ammunition at that time pursuant
to Section 12101.you just look at the ID, no BG check required. this is already existing law, AB962 did not add to this part.





if you have a felony currently which prohibits you from owning a firearm to begin with. So a background check would be required or am I reading wrong?



12316 (b) (1) No person prohibited from owning or possessing a firearm
under Section 12021 or 12021.1 of this code or Section 8100 or 8103
of the Welfare and Institutions Code shall own, possess, or have
under his or her custody or control, any ammunition or reloaded
ammunition.
(2) For purposes of this subdivision, "ammunition" shall include,
but not be limited to, any bullet, cartridge, magazine, clip, speed
loader, autoloader, or projectile capable of being fired from a
firearm with a deadly consequence. "Ammunition" does not include
blanks.
(3) A violation of paragraph (1) of this subdivision is punishable
by imprisonment in a county jail not to exceed one year or in the
state prison, by a fine not to exceed one thousand dollars ($1,000),
or by both the fine and imprisonment.
(4) A person who is not prohibited by paragraph (1) from owning,
possessing, or having under his or her custody or control, any
ammunition or reloaded ammunition, but who is enjoined from engaging
in activity pursuant to an injunction issued pursuant to Section 3479
of the Civil Code against that person as a member of a criminal
street gang, as defined in Section 186.22, may not own, possess, or
have under his or her custody or control, any ammunition or reloaded
ammunition.
that says that if you are prohibited from possessing ammo, that it would be a crime if you did possess it. There is nothing new that says that a vendor must check you out to see if you are prohibited from buying ammo before he sells you that ammo. Only subsection (4) of the above is new, the rest is existing law. existing law doesn't reuqire an ammo vendor do a BG check on an ammo purchaser now.

1nsanity
12-22-2010, 5:21 PM
Ahhhh, gotcha, thanks! I have the gist of whats going on just haven't had time to go through it in detail. Yeah, I tend to be lazy! :D Thanks again for the clarification!