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mikehaas
07-19-2006, 11:14 AM
CalGunLaws.com (a Trutanich-Michel, LLP website) has just posted a discussion of the definition of "machinegun".

MACHINE GUN DEFINITION (http://calgunlaws.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=464)

Mike

Joe
07-19-2006, 11:23 AM
your link doesnt work

JPglee1
07-19-2006, 11:25 AM
CalGunLaws.com (a Trutanich-Michel, LLP website) has just posted a discussion of the definition of "machinegun".

http://calgunlaws.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=464

Mike


The legal definition is more than 1 round fired per pull of the trigger.

Not that hard :)


J

Hunter
07-19-2006, 11:38 AM
The legal definition is more than 1 round fired per pull of the trigger.

Not that hard :)


J

True, but what the article is also trying to show is that one can also be charged with machinegun ownership for just having parts exclusive to a machine gun (ie frame, side plate, ect..). Regardless of it being able to fire or even having a trigger to pull in the first place.

Joe
07-19-2006, 11:47 AM
humm, the link still doesnt work for me. all i see is "Sorry, this Module isn't active!"

JPglee1
07-19-2006, 11:55 AM
True, but what the article is also trying to show is that one can also be charged with machinegun ownership for just having parts exclusive to a machine gun (ie frame, side plate, ect..). Regardless of it being able to fire or even having a trigger to pull in the first place.

Yep, thats constructive possession, been that way for a long time.


Its pretty specific tho, if you have an AR, dont have any M16 FCG parts, if you have an AK, don't have an auto sear and a template...

Under the law, a piece of fence pipe 1.375" I.D. and a sten gun receiver template is enough to get you 10yrs on constructive possession....


FWIW you can make just about any semi auto with a bolt handle and a trigger a F/A with a shoestring.... If the BATF wants you, they'll get you.


J

mikehaas
07-19-2006, 12:50 PM
humm, the link still doesnt work for me. all i see is "Sorry, this Module isn't active!"

Something might be mangling the URL before it gets to your browser. Try this:
MACHINE GUN DEFINITION (http://calgunlaws.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=464)

if that doesn't work, check the URL in your browser. After the "http" part, the web address should be...

calgunlaws.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=464

Mike

mikehaas
07-19-2006, 12:54 PM
The legal definition is more than 1 round fired per pull of the trigger.

Not that hard :)

J
Does the phrase "frame and receiver" ring a bell? Have you seen that language popup recently somewhere?

Mike

JPglee1
07-19-2006, 12:58 PM
Does the phrase "frame and receiver" ring a bell? Have you seen that language popup recently somewhere?

Mike


Yep...any AR can be a MG with 2 holes and M16 parts...

J

Joe
07-19-2006, 1:03 PM
Something might be mangling the URL before it gets to your browser. Try this:
MACHINE GUN DEFINITION (http://calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=37404)

if that doesn't work, check the URL in your browser. After the "http" part, the web address should be...

calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=37404

Mike


i think you messed up the new link. its just linking me to this exact page... this thread. :)

Hunter
07-19-2006, 1:10 PM
Yep...any AR can be a MG with 2 holes and M16 parts...

J

For an AR lower, you will need the rest of the items, as you point out, to be in violation. But in some cases, just having a frame that is only for a machine gun will get you in the same hot water. That is, you donot need to have any of the other parts in your possession thats needed to make it operational. An AR lower CAN be used for a machine gun, but that is not its only use, so you must have the other parts in your possession to get in trouble.

Hunter
07-19-2006, 1:11 PM
i think you messed up the new link. its just linking me to this exact page... this thread. :)

When you get the home page, just use the "search" button for "machine gun". It will pop up then.

http://calgunlaws.com/

DrjonesUSA
07-19-2006, 1:36 PM
Yep...any AR can be a MG with 2 holes and M16 parts...

J


My understanding is that AR (semi) and M16 (auto) lowers are significantly different and a semi lower cannot be converted to full-auto without the use of a milling machine.

It is NOT as simple as dropping in the parts.

Hunter
07-19-2006, 1:56 PM
My understanding is that AR (semi) and M16 (auto) lowers are significantly different and a semi lower cannot be converted to full-auto without the use of a milling machine.

It is NOT as simple as dropping in the parts.


Some lowers are indeed as you have described, and will have the block area left in place. But others out on the market have been fully machined out. The bottom line is that one can own an ar lower minus the block, as long as they don't have the required parts to go full auto.

Now, if I understand it correctly, what Mike's post is pointing out is that this is getting a little fuzzy with those receivers /frames determined to be for a machine gun only. Then you will not need to have the remaining parts to be charged with possession.

SemiAutoSam
07-19-2006, 2:17 PM
My understanding is that AR (semi) and M16 (auto) lowers are significantly different and a semi lower cannot be converted to full-auto without the use of a milling machine.

It is NOT as simple as dropping in the parts.

Are you not famialar with the term DIAS

Not true BATF can make a AR15 dance just like a M16 with the right assortment of M16 parts even without a DIAS or M16 sear.

DrjonesUSA
07-19-2006, 2:47 PM
Some lowers are indeed as you have described, and will have the block area left in place. But others out on the market have been fully machined out. The bottom line is that one can own an ar lower minus the block, as long as they don't have the required parts to go full auto.

Now, if I understand it correctly, what Mike's post is pointing out is that this is getting a little fuzzy with those receivers /frames determined to be for a machine gun only. Then you will not need to have the remaining parts to be charged with possession.



This is all very unclear to me and I should do more research.

If a full-auto capable (properly milled) AR lower is legal to own without the NFA paperwork, what IS the regulated, NFA part?

The auto sear??

If so, why can you buy M16 fire control parts online??

I've read both; that the auto-sear is the regulated part, and that the lower is the regulated part. Which is it??

The NFA and related laws (GCA 1968, '86 FOPA) is a perfect example of laws/regulations that are convoluted ON PURPOSE.

SemiAutoSam
07-19-2006, 3:24 PM
This is all very unclear to me and I should do more research.

If a full-auto capable (properly milled) AR lower is legal to own without the NFA paperwork, what IS the regulated, NFA part?

The auto sear??

If so, why can you buy M16 fire control parts online??

I've read both; that the auto-sear is the regulated part, and that the lower is the regulated part. Which is it??

The NFA and related laws (GCA 1968, '86 FOPA) is a perfect example of laws/regulations that are convoluted ON PURPOSE.

As far as Title 1 weapons its the Lower receiver but with Title 2 IE NFA weapons it could be the receiver or the sear or alot of things

A AR15 lower receiver can be able to hold a DIAS but that does not make it an NFA weapon until it has the DIAS in it or the other group of M16 parts

THE bolt carrier, Hammer, Trigger, Disconnect, Selector.

Also If a person OWNS a registered DIAS they can use a AR15 rifle as the "HOST" for the Registered DIAS to sit in and if the DIAS the barrel is not limited to be at least 16 inches as well as it does not matter what leanth the barrel is IF the Registered DIAS is in the rifle.

Once the R/DIAS is taken out of the barrel then if the SHorter than 16 inch barrel is not removed the item is considered a contraband SBR...


Both the M16 lower and the RDIAS can be registered just like a sear for a HK 91 can be used in the HK93 and or HK51 that is IF the caliber is listed on the FORM 3 or 4 in the case of a individual.

You can (depending who you try to buy them from) buy m16 parts as they are not tightly controlled but the industry has started to control the sales of these parts on its own look at the Bushmaster catalog you cannot buy M16 parts from them unless you show them your a SOT or hold a tax stamp.

hope this helps

Hunter
07-19-2006, 3:43 PM
This is all very unclear to me and I should do more research.
.......

SemiAutoSam did a good job of laying out the basics. I might add that having a auto sear is not illegal in itself. If the sear is unregistered, then you can posses it alone (ie no receiver to drop it in) or you can have it with a receiver that is registered as a machine gun. In both cases you are good to go.

When all of this came down requiring registrations starting with 1968 GCA and ending with the final act in 1986, one could do two things. 1) Register the receiver of the firearm as a full auto and in that case you could replace the existing fire control group (aka sear) as many times as you wanted to with new ones as they wore out. Or 2) register the sear. By doing this you could then legally move that sear group from gun to gun without paying NFA tax each time. A good example is the HK sears. You will find individual rifles that are regsitered receiver guns and those will only be licensed for that caliber and only that gun. On the other hand, you could have taken the sear and registered it as machine gun for 9mm, .223, and .308. Then you would be free to use that registered sear on any HK-91, Hk-93, HK-94, SP989, ect.. . Otherwords, you could take a semi-auto receiver and add the sear to go full auto (still would need the proper bolt). Then when you had run out of ammo, in one caliber:D , you could take the sear out use it in another gun of another caliber.

mikehaas
07-19-2006, 4:49 PM
i think you messed up the new link. its just linking me to this exact page... this thread. :)
Fixed, thanks, sorry.

One of those "cut, copy, crash" things.

Mike

REDHORSE
07-19-2006, 5:00 PM
http://calgunlaws.com/modules.php?name=NukeNews&file=article&sid=464

xenophobe
07-19-2006, 8:25 PM
Owning a semiautomatic rifle and a shoestring = owning an illegal machine gun.

http://img146.imageshack.us/img146/6466/shoestringzp3.jpg

SemiAutoSam
07-19-2006, 8:36 PM
Owning a semiautomatic rifle and a shoestring = owning an illegal machine gun.

http://img146.imageshack.us/img146/6466/shoestringzp3.jpg

SO this could be considered string theory?









Would this be a relative to Richard Millhouse Nixon ?

m24armorer
07-19-2006, 11:24 PM
Just take a look at the Bushmaster Carbon 15. A .125 hole away from a beautiful day. SHTF works here.