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LOW2000
07-18-2006, 3:44 PM
If you have a rifle with evil features and want to store it without a magazine or want to clean it without a magazine in it, as soon as you remove the upper, then the weapon is no longer centerfire right?

While the lower receiver is the weapon, the upper designates caliber and rimfire/centerfire.

So in an effort to protect ones self from people knocking on the door unexpectedly, couldn't one just keep the uppers detached from the lowers until the weapon is back in its usual nuetered state? That would leave open the door that despite having a collapsable stock, pistol grip and detached magazine, it is not a centerfire rifle and as such is not subject to AW regulations any more than a rifle with a .22 upper/conversion attached would be.

SemiAutoSam
07-18-2006, 3:55 PM
If you have a rifle with evil features and want to store it without a magazine or want to clean it without a magazine in it, as soon as you remove the upper, then the weapon is no longer centerfire right?

While the lower receiver is the weapon, the upper designates caliber and rimfire/centerfire.

So in an effort to protect ones self from people knocking on the door unexpectedly, couldn't one just keep the uppers detached from the lowers until the weapon is back in its usual nuetered state? That would leave open the door that despite having a collapsable stock, pistol grip and detached magazine, it is not a centerfire rifle and as such is not subject to AW regulations any more than a rifle with a .22 upper/conversion attached would be.


IF the upper designates caliber and rimfire - centerfire then why is the lower engraved with the caliber ?

bwiese
07-18-2006, 4:02 PM
If you have a rifle with evil features and want to store it without a magazine or want to clean it without a magazine in it, as soon as you remove the upper, then the weapon is no longer centerfire right?

That's likely something a court would have to decide. You might have a defense. Got money?

This has been treated in the FAQ and also more elaborately in the AR/AK memo next to it on the blue title bar here on Calguns.

While constructive possession concepts don't count for disassembled rifle parts, the fact that the lower has a pistol grip and maybe a telestock might well make this an AW if the lower was counted as a true rifle.

I have been constantly repeating - including multiple times in the FAQ - that no one should have an off-list lower with an open magwell and also pistol grip and/or telestock. If the receiver were truly regarded as the rifle doing otherwise may well make you have an AW.

Already we had one guy who brought in a lower for trade to a SJ gunshop and had a pistol grip and maybe a telestock, but no fixed mag. Somehow the DOJ was called and it was regarded as 'contraband'. He's lucky he wasn't busted and just lost his OLL.


While the lower receiver is the weapon, the upper designates caliber and rimfire/centerfire.

No. This is why (unless you specifically have a lower marked as 22LR!) you generally should not have a detachable magazine configuration plus pistol grip and/or telestock - regardless of whether or not the upper is rimfire, or you have a bolt action or pump action upper. The moment the upper is taken off the lower you could have problems.

(There are off-list lowers marked '22LR' although they wouldn't let you use a detachable mag and pistol grip for 5.56.)

These concerns don't apply to AK-type guns where the serialized receiver and type of action (rimfire/centerfire, manual vs semiauto) are tied together.


So in an effort to protect ones self from people knocking on the door unexpectedly, couldn't one just keep the uppers detached from the lowers until the weapon is back in its usual nuetered state?

Keep a fixed (nondetachable) 10rd mag screwed down in the lower, fine.

Don't have an open magwell unless you have a plain stock and no pistol grip (i..e, a legal gripless configuration.

Of course, either of these cases are legal so why take the upper off the lower?

JUST NEVER HAVE A OFF-LIST AR LOWER WITH AN OPEN MAGWELL AND A PISTOL GRIP AND/OR TELESTOCK AND/OR FLASH-HIDER-EQUIPPED UPPER ATTACHED.

That would leave open the door that despite having a collapsable stock, pistol grip and detached magazine, it is not a centerfire rifle and as such is not subject to AW regulations any more than a rifle with a .22 upper/conversion attached would be.

Nice try, but it's simply too risky. I'm sure a court could make an adequate determination for you :)

midnitereaper
07-18-2006, 4:04 PM
Way ahead of you! After reading the post yesterday on the guy in LA and another friend telling me about a similar story in San Diego I decided to detach all my uppers from lowers and keep them stored that way.

bwiese
07-18-2006, 4:13 PM
Way ahead of you! After reading the post yesterday on the guy in LA and another friend telling me about a similar story in San Diego I decided to detach all my uppers from lowers and keep them stored that way.

Geez, that's useless.

You are no more legal or illegal w/upper detached (unless when assembled you are in an illegal configuration - say, gripless and A2 stock but have a flash hider).

Some people just don't understand, apparently.

Read and UNDERSTAND the FAQ.

LOW2000
07-18-2006, 4:13 PM
IF the upper designates caliber and rimfire - centerfire then why is the lower engraved with the caliber ?

Mine do not, YMMV.

If lower and engraving designated caliber, I can't see the DOJ accepting registrations for lowers/AW's previously that were submitted as "multi" or "8888"

bwiese
07-18-2006, 4:16 PM
If lower and engraving designated caliber, I can't see the DOJ accepting registrations for lowers/AW's previously that were submitted as "multi" or "8888"

Wrong.

Caliber is supplmental information. Fill it out as it's configured.

If a reg period for some reason opens, and your gun has multiple calibers, register it as multicaliber - or just fill in "223, 9mm, 6.8, 7.62x39, 6.5Grendel" and they'll just put multicaliber/8888 on the reg form. They will do exactly what they did in 2000 for this.

LOW2000
07-18-2006, 4:25 PM
I still put forth the arguement that barrel diameter and possibly the bolt determine caliber (since you can fire a .22 down a .223 barrel with a rimfire conversion) and if there is no barrel present, then there is no caliber. If there is no caliber how in gods name could it be argued other than by constructive possession that what you have is a centerfire rifle?

midnitereaper
07-18-2006, 4:30 PM
Geez, that's useless.

You are no more legal or illegal w/upper detached (unless when assembled you are in an illegal configuration - say, gripless and A2 stock but have a flash hider).

Some people just don't understand, apparently.

Read and UNDERSTAND the FAQ.

Are you a lawyer? Simple fact is you can pretty much buy and have any part you want for a weapon and not be in violation of the law. The violation will come into effect when you assemble the weapon. The police cannot do anything to you unless they catch you with the weapon fully assembled. That is why you are more likely to get pinched at the range or on the road than at home.

Another thing is I only did this as a precaution for myself. I don't go advertising to my neighbors what I got and try to draw as little to no attention as possible to myself.

AxonGap
07-18-2006, 4:56 PM
If you have a rifle with evil features and want to store it without a magazine or want to clean it without a magazine in it, as soon as you remove the upper, then the weapon is no longer centerfire right?

While the lower receiver is the weapon, the upper designates caliber and rimfire/centerfire.

So in an effort to protect ones self from people knocking on the door unexpectedly, couldn't one just keep the uppers detached from the lowers until the weapon is back in its usual nuetered state? That would leave open the door that despite having a collapsable stock, pistol grip and detached magazine, it is not a centerfire rifle and as such is not subject to AW regulations any more than a rifle with a .22 upper/conversion attached would be.

Remove the pistol grip and replace it w/ an SRB if you are concerned. If you are still not fully convinced about the whole OLL thing you may consider getting a FAB-10 or CA Bushy for all your "bad-boy" parts.

bwiese
07-18-2006, 5:15 PM
I still put forth the arguement that barrel diameter and possibly the bolt determine caliber (since you can fire a .22 down a .223 barrel with a rimfire conversion) and if there is no barrel present, then there is no caliber. If there is no caliber how in gods name could it be argued other than by constructive possession that what you have is a centerfire rifle?

You have an argument or defense, not something clearcut.

You're gonna be in a court where the judge will make a determination of "is this a rifle or not". Could be a tossup.

We've already seen near-bust for an off-list lower w/open magwell and pistol grip + telestock. It was seized.

It's your ******, not mine.

The DOJ appears to tolerate rimfire detachable mag ARs if and only if they're marked "22LR" on the lower. That makes it rimfire-eligible.

Please, DO NOT HAVE AN OPEN MAGWELL WITH A PISTOL GRIP AND/OR TELESTOCK ATTACHED.

bwiese
07-18-2006, 5:29 PM
Are you a lawyer?

Sounds like you're new here.

No, but I think some other folks here will tell you I (along with a few others here) know the ins & outs of the AW laws and AW regulatory code fairly well, and that we know areas of exposure.

I wrote the FAQ on this website, and some (similar) paperwork that's been distributed by OLL vendor(s) with OLLs was pronounced by a gun lawyer as "this will save your customers' asses" (rough quote).

Simple fact is you can pretty much buy and have any part you want for a weapon and not be in violation of the law.

True - except for short-barrel rifles and machinegun stuff.

The violation will come into effect when you assemble the weapon. The police cannot do anything to you unless they catch you with the weapon fully assembled.

Generally so, yes... BUT:

I continue to assert that there is SUBSTANTIAL RISK that an off-list AR lower with pistol grip and telestock could well be regarded as an (illegal) assault weapon. Given the murkiness of "receiver = gun" it could go either way.

You might have a defense, but we've already just seen that one OLL w/pistol grip and open magwell was regarded as contraband by DOJ and was seized at a gunshop. The OLL owner was lucky he wasn't arrested.

Furthermore, what you're really saying is you want an open magwell with a detached upper.

The only rational reason is that the upper would be attached with an open magwell still present. Given the upper is easier to remove/reinstall than a fixed 10rd mag, there's a strong appearance that you wanted an open-mag rifle. It would make far more sense to leave the fixed 10rd mag in since that is legal.



that is why you are more likely to get pinched at the range or on the road than at home.

Where didja get that BS from?

80+% of all AW violations are from 'in the home' and not in transit. (Told to me by a gun lawyer.) Often due to domestic situations. There are even a variety of legitimate non-crime reasons why cops + emergency personnel could enter your home.



Another thing is I only did this as a precaution for myself. I don't go advertising to my neighbors what I got and try to draw as little to no attention as possible to myself.

Well hiding a felony doesn't mean it's not a felony.

Configure in either of two ways:
keep lower with a fixed 10rd magazine;

if the lower has an open magwell, it should have a regular stock and no pistol grip (use SRB or MonsterMan grip, both of which are legal non-pistol grip grips as per 978.20) and not have an upper w/flash hider attached.


There's a lot of attention to this and you have to be cleaner than Caesar's wife. Doing the above keeps you clean.

If you have $10K-$15K to fight in court, go take risks. Going up thru appellate division, it can go to $40+K.

midnitereaper
07-19-2006, 1:46 PM
oops! you got me on the pistol grip. A stripped lower is called a rifle or so they say so having the open mag and pistol grip I am in violation. Can someone point me in the right direction for California law of what is considered a firearm? I don't have the money right now for 2 more mag locks and 10rnd mags but at the same time it is such a pain in the ****** getting that grip screwed in.

bwiese
07-19-2006, 1:55 PM
oops! you got me on the pistol grip. A stripped lower is called a rifle or so they say so having the open mag and pistol grip I am in violation.

Or open magwell and telestock - another evil feature. Or open magwell, no pistol grip, no telestock, and an attached upper w/flash hider.


Can someone point me in the right direction for California law of what is considered a firearm?

It's not necessarily what's a firearm, but how that context plays with what is an assault weapon. Stick with the FAQ and you'll be fine.

I don't have the money right now for 2 more mag locks and 10rnd mags but at the same time it is such a pain in the ****** getting that grip screwed in.

Then hold off till you have the money and keep your lowers grip free and have a regular A2 stock on 'em.

Or, just get an SRB to cover the grip boss and go gripless, or use a MonsterMan grip (and no flash hider or telestock) to have a legal configuration: the MonsterMan grip does not count as a 978.20-defined pistolg grip.

ecounter
07-19-2006, 8:36 PM
So what if I have a Lauer Lower with no caliber stamp and a Bushmaster Carbon 15 .22 rimfire upper. The entire rifle is assembled with detachable .22 magazines(open Mag well). Opinions on weather this constitutes a legal build in CA or not? Again there is no caliber stamp on the Lower. Take in mind that from what I understand a Carbon 15 .22 lower will still accomidate a .223 upper. so there is no technical difference other than a .22 LR marking as opposed to none at all. Here is an interesting article <http://www.nramemberscouncils.com/CAL-DOJregs2.shtml>

LOW2000
07-20-2006, 8:26 AM
The feel of this place has changed so much in the last several months.

The law clearly states that AW regulations apply to CENTERFIRE SEMIAUTO ONLY!!

If there is no upper on the weapon, and especially if the lower is not caliber marked, it cannot be proven that it is a centerfire weapon, nor even semi-auto for that matter.

That would be like saying its ok to have evil features if you have a bolt action upper but as soon as you take the upper off, you've committed a felony.

It almost makes me want to take out my gas tubes and plug the gas hole on the barrel and just use the charging handle to chamber a round every time.

phish
07-20-2006, 9:14 AM
1.) go into the bathroom
2.) turn off the lights
3.) make sure any windows are covered
4.) while cleaning your rifle with an open magwell, recite the following words: "Kal DOJ, Kal DOJ, Kal DOJ"

If you did everything correctly, a flash-bang will be thrown through into the bathroom and a SWAT team will haul you off in cuffs.

midnitereaper
07-20-2006, 9:48 AM
1.) go into the bathroom
2.) turn off the lights
3.) make sure any windows are covered
4.) while cleaning your rifle with an open magwell, recite the following words: "Kal DOJ, Kal DOJ, Kal DOJ"

If you did everything correctly, a flash-bang will be thrown through into the bathroom and a SWAT team will haul you off in cuffs.

hahaha nice one!

midnitereaper
07-20-2006, 9:53 AM
Interesting point made here. Bwies has stated that removing the upper from the lower for storage in my example is bad because the leo will still see it as an AW illegally made or whatever. But what if by some chance(bad Karma) I was cleaning the weapon and LEO busted in on me. There I am with my lower seperated from the upper and no 10 round mag secured. Can they haul me and my rifle off for having an illegal AW or will they understand that I am cleaning it and thats why it is disassembled?

phish
07-20-2006, 10:08 AM
midnitereaper,

I understand your concerns, along with the intent of this thread. But realistically, unless you're cleaning your rifle on your driveway or front porch, how's anybody going to know?

In terms of storeage, there's always the risk of getting busted during a search warrant or domestic violence call, but we're all kind to our women-folk right?

grammaton76
07-20-2006, 1:17 PM
Interesting point made here. Bwies has stated that removing the upper from the lower for storage in my example is bad because the leo will still see it as an AW illegally made or whatever. But what if by some chance(bad Karma) I was cleaning the weapon and LEO busted in on me. There I am with my lower seperated from the upper and no 10 round mag secured. Can they haul me and my rifle off for having an illegal AW or will they understand that I am cleaning it and thats why it is disassembled?

Not if, before removing the mag, you remove the pistol grip and telescoping stock (if you're using one). Provided you do that, at no point have you assembled an AW.

xenophobe
07-20-2006, 1:32 PM
Are you a lawyer?

No, and only experience in the field working for a firearm manufacturer, distributor or retailer keeps him from being able to testify as an expert witness in court. He definitely has enough knowlege of this area to be considered an expert.

I know we can argue about law and not agree on it, neither one of us really being wrong. Just having different opinions which would need to be settled by case law. Because, that's where California AW law sits... in an interpretationary limbo, where even the DOJ and the 58 DA's can read the law and regulations differently.

xenophobe
07-20-2006, 1:38 PM
The law clearly states that AW regulations apply to CENTERFIRE SEMIAUTO ONLY!!

If there is no upper on the weapon, and especially if the lower is not caliber marked, it cannot be proven that it is a centerfire weapon, nor even semi-auto for that matter.

I agree with you in principle. However, you are not factoring in the "lowest common denominator" into your facts.

Not only must you interpret the law strictly, you should also allow for what a lay-police officer or anti-gun DA will decide in their interpretation of the law. In the end, your interpretation really does not matter. The decision of the LE operator, watch commander, DA, etc... that is what you are up against.

And in many cases, it doesn't matter what the Judge rules. By the time you get to the point that a Judge and/or Jury have to decide, you've already wasted tens of thousands of dollars to reach that conclusion.

Theory of law is great. Practical application is realistic.

thmpr
07-20-2006, 2:53 PM
It boils down to CYOA! It is not worth the money and time.