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Anchors
12-16-2010, 3:50 AM
This might be a long shot for anyone to know off hand.

But how much can one find these for in free states? (Arizona).

I am from AZ, but I have only dealt with one gun shop there and I was buying modern handguns, I don't know where the good C&R spots are in the Phoenix area (can't drive to Prescott for J&G).

I want to pick one up next time I'm there.
I saw a Chinese one on here just go for $175, which I thought is probably a good price even outside CA, so it got me thinking.

I would prefer a Russian, Chinese as a second option depending on prices. I just read that Yugos do not accept normal magazines?

nick
12-16-2010, 5:41 AM
$200 or below for a Romanian or Polish. A Chinese one, it depends, it can be lower or higher than that, depending on what it is. Russians go for $400-500 easily.

That Chinese one was a steal. To think I was late by a few minutes :(

morrcarr67
12-16-2010, 7:10 AM
I just read that Yugos do not accept normal magazines?

You are correct. They have a larger frame and use a 9 round magazine. You can modify a CZ52 mag to work in the Yugo.

Living in a free state like the AZ you should get your C&R license. You will be able to get any C&R handgun sent to your front door. No need to drive to J&G they will deliver.

Also, J&G goes to the Phoenix area for gun shows all the time. I'm sure you will find that hey have plenty of C&R guns for you.

Anchors
12-16-2010, 1:48 PM
I live in CA and AZ and also have a C&R license.
I have bought modern handguns in AZ and imported them (legally via DOJ form) so I know this won't be a problem.

Well, 9 rounds doesn't sound all that bad.
To be honest I just want the commie star on the grips haha.
I would like a Russian, but that is pretty pricey. I think I'll look for another Norinco when I'm in AZ.
The Romys look promising too.

Any good C&R shops down there though?
I didn't buy my own guns until after I started going to school in CA (dumb!) haha.

Anchors
12-18-2010, 6:06 PM
I guess I'll just get a Yugo from J&G.
Really wanted a normal one though, but sources seem limited (and private sales prices are nuts!)

dogolden
12-18-2010, 6:53 PM
http://www.southernohiogun.com/skin/frontend/sog/default/images/media/sog_issue227.pdf

$165 + S&H = not bad!

Anchors
12-18-2010, 7:29 PM
AHHH where were you four days ago!!! haha
Think they will still honor it?

Edit to add: Thank you very much!

JAGGUY
12-18-2010, 7:31 PM
Give them a call on Monday. They have honored special requests like that from me on several occasions.

Anchors
12-18-2010, 7:36 PM
That would be great.
Since it will still have to go through an FFL I will take every break I can get haha.
Can companies only ship to address on C&R holders license?
Because I am a dual resident in AZ and have bought handguns there and legally imported them. I would rather pay $19 reg. fee than a $50 transfer fee.

Dr.Mauser
12-18-2010, 8:25 PM
Is the Russian Tokarev better than the Romanian or Polish versions?

VegasND
12-18-2010, 8:27 PM
It is legal for you to have an 03 C&R license for each address. Then you can have handguns sent to AZ and save the extra cost.
That would be great.
Since it will still have to go through an FFL I will take every break I can get haha.
Can companies only ship to address on C&R holders license?
Because I am a dual resident in AZ and have bought handguns there and legally imported them. I would rather pay $19 reg. fee than a $50 transfer fee.

Anchors
12-18-2010, 8:41 PM
It is legal for you to have an 03 C&R license for each address. Then you can have handguns sent to AZ and save the extra cost.

I think you have to pick one and I picked CA because I am here for school more.

@Mauser The Russians are certainly more valuable and collectible. If I could find one and get it for around the same $200 I would jump on it definitely.

7.62x54R
12-18-2010, 10:49 PM
Is the Russian Tokarev better than the Romanian or Polish versions?

Russian---> Polish---> Yugo--->Tokagypt --->Romanian--->Chinese

Russians because they are the most valuable. War time build quality is rough

Polish have good build quality, affordable and available.

Yugo also have good build quality and affordable but they have the mag issue. (http://www.ccsportingarms.com/product.sc?productId=58&categoryId=1) Also available. I recommend buying from J&G because you get two magazines.

Tokagypt /Hungarian are good build quality and were re chambered to 9mm and worked well but don't find them often. They are expensive too.

Romanian are a toss up either good or bad build quality but cheap and work none the less.

Chinese i know the Tokarev chambered are better than 9mm chambered ones. Not common in Tokarev most were chambered to 9mm

matrix
12-19-2010, 12:25 AM
Anyone know of any FFL dealer in the Bay Area from Oakland all the way down to San Jose that are vendors of SOG and offer best pricing?

Anchors
12-19-2010, 1:02 AM
Russian---> Polish---> Yugo--->Tokagypt --->Romanian--->Chinese

Russians because they are the most valuable. War time build quality is rough

Polish have good build quality, affordable and available.

Yugo also have good build quality and affordable but they have the mag issue. (http://www.ccsportingarms.com/product.sc?productId=58&categoryId=1) Also available. I recommend buying from J&G because you get two magazines.

Tokagypt /Hungarian are good build quality and were re chambered to 9mm and worked well but don't find them often. They are expensive too.

Romanian are a toss up either good or bad build quality but cheap and work none the less.

Chinese i know the Tokarev chambered are better than 9mm chambered ones. Not common in Tokarev most were chambered to 9mm

Really? Damn maybe I should get the Polish one then.
I know it sounds dumb, but I really wanted to commie star on the grips though. (Which the Polish lacks).

VegasND
12-19-2010, 4:19 AM
...
Yugo also have good build quality and affordable but they have the mag issue. (http://www.ccsportingarms.com/product.sc?productId=58&categoryId=1) Also available. I recommend buying from J&G because you get two magazines. ...
FYI: I bought two of the magazines you linked to. It took over 2 weeks for them to arrive but I shot the pistol with them yesterday. They both worked without any problems. Held 9 rounds, fit the magazine well without being loose (yeah, I've owned triplek mags -- never again), fed the ammo without a glitch, and locked the slide back. Quality and price are both good, I'm ordering more.

morrcarr67
12-19-2010, 11:04 AM
RyanAnchors you can have a C&R at both locations. I have two licenses. One in the PRK and one in Nevada I have everything but long guns over 50 years old sent to my NV FFL. I will never again pay an 01 FFL to do a transfer on a C&R purchase. :D

Rekrab
12-19-2010, 1:44 PM
I didn't think the Chinese Norinco 213s were C&R?

I paid 200 for mine and I've been pretty happy with it.

emcon5
12-19-2010, 2:18 PM
Anyone know of any FFL dealer in the Bay Area from Oakland all the way down to San Jose that are vendors of SOG and offer best pricing?

No affiliation, but if Christmas money hadn't been spent, I would be really interested in this:

Romanian Tok with 2 magazines and ~500 rounds of ammo for $275 in East Bay.
http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=372740&highlight=Tokarev

Actually, that is not true. I AM really interested in it, I just don't want to spend the money right now......

Anchors
12-19-2010, 5:30 PM
That is a decent deal. If I was in the bay I would jump on that.

Don the savage
12-19-2010, 5:54 PM
I have a polish tt33 that I bought from turners for 219 last year. I think some of the stores still have them. great gun the mags that came with it were horrible. Bought some new ones at the gun show and am working through my spam cans of ammo from j&g.
By the way, is 7.62x25 considered pistol or rifle ammo for ab962?

Anchors
12-19-2010, 7:56 PM
I have a polish tt33 that I bought from turners for 219 last year. I think some of the stores still have them. great gun the mags that came with it were horrible. Bought some new ones at the gun show and am working through my spam cans of ammo from j&g.
By the way, is 7.62x25 considered pistol or rifle ammo for ab962?

Really? I would do that to save on shipping/transfers. I facebook'd Turners to see if they still have them haha.
I'm sure it is pistol ammo.

I decided to post a WTB in the sale forums and see what turned up before I go off transferring and ordering all over the place.

7.62x54R
12-20-2010, 12:45 AM
FYI: I bought two of the magazines you linked to. It took over 2 weeks for them to arrive but I shot the pistol with them yesterday. They both worked without any problems. Held 9 rounds, fit the magazine well without being loose (yeah, I've owned triplek mags -- never again), fed the ammo without a glitch, and locked the slide back. Quality and price are both good, I'm ordering more.

Good to know i may have to buy at least two. I thought about buying another gun to get two more mags. :D

Anchors
12-20-2010, 1:50 AM
I decided to post a WTB in the sale forums and see what turned up before I go off transferring and ordering all over the place.

Unless one of you wants to unload your Tok for a fair price:D
Paid in cash!

VegasND
12-20-2010, 6:46 AM
You're not alone, I've done that too.
Good to know i may have to buy at least two. I thought about buying another gun to get two more mags. :D
I found one on consignment in Surprise several months ago that had 2 mags. I actually made an offer on it -- turned down, evidently the seller knew how hard the mags have been to get.

Anchors
12-20-2010, 4:47 PM
You're not alone, I've done that too.

I found one on consignment in Surprise several months ago that had 2 mags. I actually made an offer on it -- turned down, evidently the seller knew how hard the mags have been to get.

I'm guessing that was in NV?

No luck so far on the forums and another calgunner is also looking for one right now.
I guess I'll have to go with SOG and just eat the $100 in red tape on top of the base price. (Shipping+$50 Transfer Fee+$25 HSC).

emcon5
12-20-2010, 5:25 PM
I(Shipping+$50 Transfer Fee+$25 HSC).Semi-tangent: Is a HSC required for a C&R to register a C&R handgun purchased out of state?

Anchors
12-20-2010, 5:28 PM
Semi-tangent: Is a HSC required for a C&R to register a C&R handgun purchased out of state?

No. Also not required if you purchase a C&R locally and have a C&R+COE.

In fact, it isn't required for any handgun purchased out of state.
I bought my Gen 4 Glock in AZ and registered it here no problem without the HSC (which is why I don't have one).
Guns are cheaper in AZ. I paid $525. (I am a dual-resident).

Someone sell me their damn Tok!!

VegasND
12-20-2010, 5:51 PM
I'm guessing that was in NV?
Surprise, AZ. The gun shop near Dysart and Grand. You have Phoenix in your address so I thought you'd know where it was.
No luck so far on the forums and another calgunner is also looking for one right now.
I guess I'll have to go with SOG and just eat the $100 in red tape on top of the base price. (Shipping+$50 Transfer Fee+$25 HSC).
If you're back in AZ at times, just check gunstores and classifieds there. There's always a couple for sale around AZ.

Anchors
12-20-2010, 6:46 PM
Surprise, AZ. The gun shop near Dysart and Grand. You have Phoenix in your address so I thought you'd know where it was.

Ohh I didn't see that you said Surprise in that! I know where surprise is.

If you're back in AZ at times, just check gunstores and classifieds there. There's always a couple for sale around AZ.

I will be there in two weeks! Any tips on what classifieds to check or online forums possibly?

Are handguns cash and carry in AZ for private party? I know rifles/C&R/dealer sales are.
*EDIT* Nevermind, obviously they are. I forgot about gun shows as a reference haha.

How much was the Yugo in Surprise? I want to get one eventually even though I want the standard Polish/Russian right now.

Guns are so much cheaper in AZ. It bums me out whenever I have to come back for school haha.
And all the NFA stuff being virtually shall issue. Drool.

VegasND
12-20-2010, 9:10 PM
I will be there in two weeks! Any tips on what classifieds to check or online forums possibly?
Check Backpage.com -- there's always a bunch of guns under sporting goods.
ArizonaGunOwner.com ArizonaShooting.com AZWeaponsite.com
are 3 fora -- at least one requires a minimum number of posts to see classifieds. I feel that only one is actually a friendly place to visit.
Are handguns cash and carry in AZ for private party? I know rifles/C&R/dealer sales are.
*EDIT* Nevermind, obviously they are. I forgot about gun shows as a reference haha.

How much was the Yugo in Surprise? I want to get one eventually even though I want the standard Polish/Russian right now.
I've forgotten how much it was but I'd recommend the drive up to Prescott. Don't limit your visit to J&G, there's a bunch of gun stores up there worth visiting, some of the better ones are out in Prescott Valley. I've bought several guns from Prescott Valley Guns -- Take the highway almost out of Prescott Valley and make a u-turn when you see Humbolt School District offices on the North side. Stay on the frontage road past the offices and Prescott Valley Guns will soon be on your right. The Prescott Gun Shows are inexpensive and packed with goodies and although the usual expensive gun show items are there, bargains aren't uncommon; I think it's the best value in gun shows going right now. I've also seen guns at swap meets but prices are generally high.
Guns are so much cheaper in AZ. It bums me out whenever I have to come back for school haha.
And all the NFA stuff being virtually shall issue. Drool.
Yeah, gun prices are very different from state to state. I'm trying to get money together for some NFA goodies of my own. Try to hook up with some Full-Auto guys, they have the best shoots.

matrix
12-21-2010, 12:20 AM
Any Bay Area FFL that can order a Romanian/Polish Tokarev off SOH?

Anchors
12-21-2010, 1:43 AM
Any Bay Area FFL that can order a Romanian/Polish Tokarev off SOH?

You can order it and have it sent to any FFL that will do transfers. Call a local shop and ask what they charge first. $75-$100 is the norm. There is ONE place here that charges $50 (including DROS).


I think while in AZ I need to get a Polish Tokarev and a Romanian SKS.
Do Romanian SKS go for less than $300 private party in free states? Otherwise I will just order from Century and hope they don't send me a pile of nuts and bolts. Though I would prefer a better middle man to inspect the quality and offer a handpick.

Dr.Mauser
12-22-2010, 8:24 PM
Found a couple of Soviet Made Tokarevs:

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=207652771

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=207548412

Anchors
12-22-2010, 10:49 PM
Found a couple of Soviet Made Tokarevs:

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=207652771

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=207548412

The second one is pretty rough, but it was made in 40.
They both look pretty nice.
But the second one is at $300 with reserve not met, so I cringe to think of what the reserve is.

Dr.Mauser
12-23-2010, 1:36 AM
give it a go lol its a real tokarev, so you wont be disappointed

7.62x54R
12-23-2010, 1:42 AM
The second one is pretty rough, but it was made in 40.
They both look pretty nice.
But the second one is at $300 with reserve not met, so I cringe to think of what the reserve is.

Im sure its higher than that. The lowest ive seen one go for was 470ish

Anchors
12-23-2010, 1:50 AM
give it a go lol its a real tokarev, so you wont be disappointed

Im sure its higher than that. The lowest ive seen one go for was 470ish

Yeah $500 was the starting point I had in my mind. If I had that money right now I would probably get a Garand (see other post, just posted and need help haha)
I'm pretty sure I will be buying the Polish and picking it up while in AZ.

Whatever SOG charges for shipping+FFL transfer $20 (oh free states)+illegal $19 DOJ tax upon return.
I will be transferring it via new handgun resident form instead of the C&R handgun form since I will be an AZ resident when in AZ buying it.

sass2924
12-24-2010, 10:26 AM
So a C&R handgun that is not on the doj roster can be brought into California? Like the Tokarev.

iareConfusE
12-24-2010, 11:58 AM
Woop just did the paperwork for my Polish Tok yesterday form another CGN member. 10 days...

Dr.Mauser
12-24-2010, 2:04 PM
Cannot wait to be 21...

nick
12-24-2010, 2:11 PM
Cannot wait to be 21...

It's not all it's hyped up to be. Then again, I celebrated my 21st birthday in a ****hole of a place :)

Dr.Mauser
12-26-2010, 1:24 PM
I only care about getting my c&R and getting handguns lol

DIRTY HARRY
12-26-2010, 9:37 PM
i found one for 200 is that a good deal? its a early one with no safety. billy

!@#$
12-26-2010, 9:48 PM
i found one for 200 is that a good deal? its a early one with no safety. billy

not a good deal.

tell me where it is:D

Rekrab
12-27-2010, 12:49 PM
i found one for 200 is that a good deal? its a early one with no safety. billy

The only ones I've seen without safeties were bring backs. I'd definitely hop on that just for the lack of safety. Does it have an import mark on it?

Anchors
12-27-2010, 2:00 PM
SOG told me friday they needed that FFL's FFL again even though they have done business before.
Then I get them to send it and they say okay we got it, but we need 24 hours to update it before you can order (it was friday) so I have to wait until monday.
Now I just called and she NOW tells me that they are out of stock on Polish Toks. She didn't tell me that friday (even though I told her what I wanted).
She told me I could get the Romanian for the same price, but not the discount price. I told her I would pass.
I am pretty much soured with SOG by this same girl's lack of communication and general attitude throughout last week and today.
I will wait until one pops up from a calgunner.

JAGGUY
12-27-2010, 2:11 PM
That's too bad about your experience with SOG. I do know they have been out of the Polish Tok's for several months.
I have had great luck dealing with them over the years but it looks like you got a sales rep having a bad day. I always deal with Kelly (ext 226) or Trish and have had good experience with both.
Sometimes it just doesn't work out.....

dogolden
12-27-2010, 3:52 PM
I ordered a couple of Polish Tok's from SOG 2(?) weeks ago and they were pretty decent. I also ordered a couple of Romanian Tok's, and a handful of cz82's. All of them sold out weekend before last. I ordered 4 more Romanian Tok's and 4 more cz82's today from SOG.

Sometimes even I get the 'run around' with SOG. I don't leave messages with them because my experience is that they don't call back. Just call back and talk to whoever answers the phone. Can you imagine in this time and age that you have to call a business back because they can't return your calls??

harmoniums
12-27-2010, 4:33 PM
heres my polish

NDQ6TrBvM6M

Fate
12-27-2010, 4:48 PM
heres my polish

NDQ6TrBvM6M

Tsk, tsk. Sweeping your cameraman before you've verified gun is clear. Tsk, tsk.

harmoniums
12-27-2010, 4:53 PM
Tsk, tsk. Sweeping your cameraman before you've verified gun is clear. Tsk, tsk.

I was waiting for this!
I did an actual safety check before the video, but for the safety check on video I wanted you to be able to see the mag release and the chamber hence the sweep-tastic action.
Non ideal I will agree, but I wanted you to get a good look at each feature.

j.primo
12-27-2010, 4:59 PM
I just picked up my polish TTC today. Just got to take out the ugly safety then fill it so I can put some nicer wood grips on it.

sigfan91
12-27-2010, 5:29 PM
Russian---> Polish---> Yugo--->Tokagypt --->Romanian--->Chinese

Russians because they are the most valuable. War time build quality is rough

Polish have good build quality, affordable and available.

Yugo also have good build quality and affordable but they have the mag issue. (http://www.ccsportingarms.com/product.sc?productId=58&categoryId=1) Also available. I recommend buying from J&G because you get two magazines.

Tokagypt /Hungarian are good build quality and were re chambered to 9mm and worked well but don't find them often. They are expensive too.

Romanian are a toss up either good or bad build quality but cheap and work none the less.

Chinese i know the Tokarev chambered are better than 9mm chambered ones. Not common in Tokarev most were chambered to 9mm

Does this ranking take into consideration the stupid "safety" mandated by the ATF for importing purposes?

Romy and Polish Tokarevs have that safety added by the importers. Chinese Tokarevs have a safety installed by the factory, which is preferable.

Of course a Tokarev without any manual safety is much better.

Anchors
12-28-2010, 2:51 AM
I ordered a couple of Polish Tok's from SOG 2(?) weeks ago and they were pretty decent. I also ordered a couple of Romanian Tok's, and a handful of cz82's. All of them sold out weekend before last. I ordered 4 more Romanian Tok's and 4 more cz82's today from SOG.

Sometimes even I get the 'run around' with SOG. I don't leave messages with them because my experience is that they don't call back. Just call back and talk to whoever answers the phone. Can you imagine in this time and age that you have to call a business back because they can't return your calls??

Yeah I don't get that with companies these days, especially in this economy.
Interested in selling any of the Pols? haha.

heres my polish

NDQ6TrBvM6M

That is in great shape. That is what I was going for. I was going to get the handpick and ask for numbers matching with the best finish.
Nice Tok.

I will look around Phoenix when I am there next week for a good C&R shop that might have Toks, but I won't hold my breath. Probably just buy whatever fancies me at the time. Maybe a Romy SKS if I can find one.

iareConfusE
12-28-2010, 8:40 AM
I ordered a couple of Polish Tok's from SOG 2(?) weeks ago and they were pretty decent. I also ordered a couple of Romanian Tok's, and a handful of cz82's. All of them sold out weekend before last. I ordered 4 more Romanian Tok's and 4 more cz82's today from SOG.

Sometimes even I get the 'run around' with SOG. I don't leave messages with them because my experience is that they don't call back. Just call back and talk to whoever answers the phone. Can you imagine in this time and age that you have to call a business back because they can't return your calls??

Speaking of SOG, are you supposed to receive an order confirmation when you place an order at their online website? I put an order in for a single Tokarev magazine last night and I haven't received a confirmation email yet.

Also, is shipping for their products free? They didn't give an option to calculate shipping during checkout, and when I neared finishing the check out process it gave me my grand total that I was going to be charged, and that didn't include shipping. I'm going to be pretty unhappy if I find out later on that they went ahead and charged me $10 for shipping without first notifying me before I even bought the product...

stevie
12-28-2010, 9:24 AM
SOG adds shipping separately, I did not get a shipping confimation.

JAGGUY
12-28-2010, 9:34 AM
SOG will ad shipping costs on top of your order, they don't offer free shipping. Usually a $9.95 s&h will be added so ordering 1 cheap item doesn't make sense.

doctor_vals
12-28-2010, 9:38 AM
Russian---> Polish---> Yugo--->Tokagypt --->Romanian--->Chinese

Russians because they are the most valuable. War time build quality is rough
Polish have good build quality, affordable and available.
Yugo also have good build quality and affordable.
Tokagypt /Hungarian are good build quality and were re chambered to 9mm and worked well but don't find them often. They are expensive too.
Romanian are a toss up either good or bad build quality but cheap and work none the less.
Chinese i know the Tokarev chambered are better than 9mm chambered ones. Not common in Tokarev most were chambered to 9mm

Agreed with "Russian---> Polish---> Yugo--->Tokagypt --->Romanian--->Chinese".
I have Russian - and this is distance - 20"

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/attachment.php?attachmentid=79918&stc=1&d=1293557742

Good to know i may have to buy at least two. I thought about buying another gun to get two more mags. :D

Let me know, I've got 3 extra mags in mint condition, with lanyard. (sold to matrix)

empirearms
12-28-2010, 9:54 AM
I didn't think the Chinese Norinco 213s were C&R?

Correct, the Chinese Norinco 213 Tokarev *IS NOT* a C&R weapon and CANNOT be imported into California (it is not on "the list" of approved handguns).

The Chinese Type 51 and Type 54 Tokarevs doe qualify as C&R, but not the 213 (even though most were imported into the USA by California-based importers).

iareConfusE
12-28-2010, 1:03 PM
SOG will ad shipping costs on top of your order, they don't offer free shipping. Usually a $9.95 s&h will be added so ordering 1 cheap item doesn't make sense.

Yeah, that's pretty f'ing ridiculous. I just emailed them to cancel my order. $12 shipping for an $18 magazine is ridiculous. I know that USPS flat rate small box costs only $4.85. Theres' no way I'm paying $12 for shipping. Pretty upsetting that they don't allow you to see your shipping costs prior to final checkout. I don't understand how they get away with tacking on a ridiculous shipping fee without even telling the customer. If there's one thing I've learned from working in the retail industry, it's that you don't spend a customer's money without asking - it just pisses them off.

JAGGUY
12-28-2010, 1:15 PM
I have a few Tok mags from Rick Reich
http://www.gunboards.com/sites/reichoutfitters/index.html

I think they are $11 ea shipped. This is just a sideline for him so it takes a couple of weeks to get your order but he is gtg on everything I have ordered

Anchors
12-28-2010, 3:59 PM
Agreed with "Russian---> Polish---> Yugo--->Tokagypt --->Romanian--->Chinese".
I have Russian - and this is distance - 20"

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/attachment.php?attachmentid=79918&stc=1&d=1293557742



Let me know, I've got 3 extra mags in mint condition, with lanyard.

Nice Tok!!

iareConfusE
12-28-2010, 9:58 PM
Agreed with "Russian---> Polish---> Yugo--->Tokagypt --->Romanian--->Chinese".
I have Russian - and this is distance - 20"

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/attachment.php?attachmentid=79918&stc=1&d=1293557742



Let me know, I've got 3 extra mags in mint condition, with lanyard.

20 inches? :p

Anchors
12-28-2010, 10:32 PM
20 inches? :p

For shooting at that distance a carbine length rifle is best. :D

doctor_vals
01-03-2011, 1:34 PM
20 inches? :p

maybe miles.... :rolleyes:
sorry, my bad :)

of course 20 yards :D