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View Full Version : Trading without an FFL or C&R


ja391
07-17-2006, 4:33 PM
It's true that you can make a face to face transfer if the two long arms being traded are more than 50 years old, correct? If so, how should the transfer be done, since the 4473 slips still have our name attached to the firearm?

50 Freak
07-17-2006, 4:53 PM
Yes, if the rifle is over 50 years old, it's pretty much cash and carry. Most people ask for a copy of the buyer's driver's license (sort of a CYA action) but I don't believe it's required by law.

Not sure if this is applicable to handguns....

EOD Guy
07-17-2006, 5:41 PM
Yes, if the rifle is over 50 years old, it's pretty much cash and carry. Most people ask for a copy of the buyer's driver's license (sort of a CYA action) but I don't believe it's required by law.

Not sure if this is applicable to handguns....

It is only valid for C&R rifles and shotguns over 50 years old. Handguns still have to be transferred through a dealer.

-hanko
07-17-2006, 9:46 PM
Times 3, it's "fifty years OR OLDER". Take an extra year anytime you can.

-hanko

chiefcrash
07-18-2006, 8:23 AM
Yes, if the rifle is over 50 years old, it's pretty much cash and carry. Most people ask for a copy of the buyer's driver's license (sort of a CYA action) but I don't believe it's required by law.

Not sure if this is applicable to handguns....

Well, the reason they'll ask for a copy of the driver's license (or FFL license if available) is so they can put that info in their "Bound Book". Yer supposed to put it in the bound book at least...

ja391
07-18-2006, 7:15 PM
Well, the reason they'll ask for a copy of the driver's license (or FFL license if available) is so they can put that info in their "Bound Book". Yer supposed to put it in the bound book at least...

What if I don't have a C&R?

http://ag.ca.gov/firearms/pubfaqs.htm#9

chiefcrash
07-18-2006, 8:31 PM
If you don't have a C&R or a regular FFL, the transfer has to go through a FFL. The only exception that i know of is if it's an antique (mostly cap & ball black powder firearms, including REPLICAS)

you can get rifles more than 50 years old shipped straight to your door (or face to face), but only if you have a C&R license

http://www.surplusrifle.com/shooting2005/howtogetyourcurionrelicffl03/index.asp
http://www.empirearms.com/cal-ffl.htm

ja391
07-18-2006, 8:59 PM
From the DOJ link I posted earlier, I was under the impression that you CAN do a FTF transfer of a rifle or shotgun (not a pistol) without an FFL or C&R license as long as the long arm is on the federal C&R list and is more than 50 years old. I believe this is only possible in CA. I know that I can't order a C&R (even if it is 50 years or older) without a license since it's from a dealer and not a private party (with the exception of ordering from CMP).

From the link you posted ( http://www.empirearms.com/cal-ffl.htm ), it states:
"Within California, non dealers, which includes private parties with or without a Class 03 (C&R) FFL license, can sell each other any rifle that cannot be readily concealed on the person that is a federally defined C&R that is more than 50 years old (except to minors, drug addicts and those with felony or certain misdemeanor criminal records).

From CA DOJ website ( http://ag.ca.gov/firearms/pubfaqs.htm#9 ):
"The buyer, must meet the normal firearm purchase and delivery requirements. "Antique firearms," as defined in Section 921(a)(16) of Title 18 of the United States Code, and curio or relic rifles/shotguns, defined in Section 178.11 of Title 27 of the Code of Federal Regulations that are over 50 years old, are exempt from this requirement."

Gunlaw.com ( http://www.gunlaw.com/qna.phtml?category=4 ):
"CAN I LEGALLY SELL A GUN DIRECT TO A FRIEND OR RELATIVE?
In California, virtually all private party transfers of firearms must now be processed through a transfer dealer.... When neither party is a dealer, a rifle or shotgun which is both over 50 years old and listed on the Federal Curio & Relics list may be transferred direct."

Anyway, I'll be sure to call the DOJ tomorrow to be sure.

Mssr. Eleganté
07-18-2006, 9:28 PM
From the DOJ link I posted earlier, I was under the impression that you CAN do a FTF transfer of a rifle or shotgun (not a pistol) without an FFL or C&R license as long as the long arm is on the federal C&R list and is more than 50 years old...

...Anyway, I'll be sure to call the DOJ tomorrow to be sure.

Don't bother calling DOJ to find out. There is a 50/50 chance they will give you the wrong answer. But that doesn't matter because you have already done the research and come to the correct conclusion.

Unlicensed California residents can transfer C&R long guns that are at least 50 years old to other unlicensed California residents without going through an FFL.

But it seems like your main question is how do you prove the firearm no longer belongs to you once it has been transfered to someone else. Like you said, if you originally bought the gun from an FFL Dealer then your name will still be associated with the firearm on the Federal Form 4473 and also in the Dealers bound book.

If you are unlicensed, then there is no requirement for you to keep any records of the transaction at all. But some people like to print up a receipt or invoice for the transfer of any firearms. In addition to a description of the firearm and the price paid, you can include a place for the buyer's driver's license number and a statement that they can signed saying something like "buyer is not prohibited from owning or purchasing firearms".

This is not required, but is just a CYA thing.

Rumpled
07-18-2006, 9:59 PM
To reiterate. Over 50 year old longgun is cash and carry 'tween CA residents.

DOJ has a "No Longer in Possession" form for a little CYA; check their website.

ja391
07-18-2006, 10:30 PM
Great, thanks for all the help. I'll be sure to print out an invoice\waiver and send off the "no longer in possession" form.

EOD Guy
07-19-2006, 4:29 AM
Great, thanks for all the help. I'll be sure to print out an invoice\waiver and send off the "no longer in possession" form.

The "No Longer in Possession" form is for reporting handguns that were registered in your name and that you no longer have for one reason or another, such a theft, out of state sale, etc.

chiefcrash
07-19-2006, 7:33 AM
yea, i love the ambiguity. It hints at it, it doesn't say you can't do it, but it doesn't flat out say you CAN do it.

just don't forget to check your county/city laws. in california, you never know what little law could be hiding in a dusty book somewhere...

11Z50
07-19-2006, 7:41 AM
There is a provision in the Penal Code that says these types of transactions are legal on an "infrequent basis" DOJ interprets this as 5 or less a year. I used to collect C&Rs and confirmed this a few years back. Frankly, I don't think anybody cares. Handguns are a different story.

I don't have a Penal Code in front of me right now but can look it up if somebody needs it.

EOD Guy
07-20-2006, 5:31 AM
There is a provision in the Penal Code that says these types of transactions are legal on an "infrequent basis" DOJ interprets this as 5 or less a year. I used to collect C&Rs and confirmed this a few years back. Frankly, I don't think anybody cares. Handguns are a different story.

I don't have a Penal Code in front of me right now but can look it up if somebody needs it.

The 5 transaction limit only applies to handguns and each transaction can be for any number of handguns. Naturally, the transfers must be made through an FFL.

For rifles and shotguns, the penal code states that infrequent means "occasional and without regularity." See PC 12070(c)(1).