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50 Shooter
07-17-2006, 8:12 AM
This was posted on Biggerhammer, I know Tom so this isn't BS.


I have a friend who had a search warrant executed by the LA gun task force at his apartment, which is located above a home, within LA city limits a few months back. This task force is headed up by ATF, with LAPD and LASO being the primary agencies participating. Pursuant to the warrant execution, one Springfield M1A with its' original flash hider attached and numerous .50 cal incindiary type bullets were seized. My friend was not arrested at the time and led to believe the case might not even be prosecuted. The task force left his entire gun collection, which is extensive, with him at his apartment. A little more info here for you to consider. My friend has no criminal record of any kind, is a decorated Vietnam vet, is gainfully employed as a carpenter, and is law abiding.

A couple of weeks ago, the task force arrived at his apartment and arrested my friend and charged him with five felonies. He was taken to jail where he remained for two days until his bail was set and met. He is charged with being in possession of an unregistered assault rifle, and in possession of destructive devices, and in possession of destructive devices within so many feet of a school. Five felonies under California law in total.

Being a retired ATF special agent myself, I contacted the case agent who happens to be a LAPD dectective assigned to the task force. I asked him why such a chicken ##### case was being prosecuted. Why were they ruining my friend's life after his service to our country and the fact that he has no past criminal record. I asked him what happened to law enforcement using common sense and discretion in a case like this. The detective told me they didn't make the laws, but it was their job to enforce the law and that the DA has a no tolerence policy regarding firearms.

I tried to explain to him that the M1A rifle with its' original flash hider was legally sold to 1000's of people in CA before the assault rifle law was even enacted. Many of these original owners to this day do not know they are in violation by having the flash hider on their rifle. The detective didn't care. I explained that on at least two prior occasions I had contacted DOJ myself and had been informed the explosive bullets were legal in California as they are under ATF law, as long as they were not loaded into a case and able to fire. He said that was incorrect info and that under CA law the bullets alone are destructive devices and that each individual bullet could be charged separately.

So, I got nowhere with the detective. The case is going forward. My friend if convicted, is looking at the minimum of two years in state prison. I will be testifying as an expert at his trial and try to inform the jury exactly what is going on here. The task force wants numbers so they can get more money. The DA's office wants numbers, as well. So does ATF, all at the expense of my friend. Trust me, the agencies do not care about my friend.

So, we should all take heed of this case. I got rid of my bullets immediately upon hearing of the search warrant. My advice to CA residents is to do the same, and take their unregistered so called assault rifles out of the state. We all need to realize what we are dealing with in California. Tom

tenpercentfirearms
07-17-2006, 8:15 AM
That is why I don't have unregistered assault weapons and my tracer rounds were all burned up over a year ago.

rkt88edmo
07-17-2006, 8:20 AM
Sounds like they were fishing based on obtaining info about CA or LA residents purchasing the 'naughty' bullets.

:rolleyes:

not good.

glen avon
07-17-2006, 8:24 AM
well, missing from this is the basis for the search warrant. what were they looking for and why?

JPglee1
07-17-2006, 8:30 AM
I have to agree, he was breaking the law... albeit a stupid law, he wasn't in compliance and thats the shiz that happens.

FH on an M1A = felony, we all know that

Incindiary bullets are clearly called out as illegal in the CA regs...


With that said, does homeboy got a legal defense fund? I got $ I can help with.

J

50 Shooter
07-17-2006, 8:36 AM
I won't know more until I hear from Tom, it's not good. Take it as a warning if you have either.

ReconDoc242
07-17-2006, 8:50 AM
wow that stinks. Good luck to Toms friend. He will need it.

Turbinator
07-17-2006, 8:54 AM
How did they even know to get a search warrant for this guy in the first place? Was he flamboyantly displaying his M1A with flash suppressor and juggling his bullets in public?

Turby

JPglee1
07-17-2006, 8:56 AM
My guess:

A fellow vietnam vet (who was a nut job maybe) got pinched with something he shouldn't have had and gave up his buddy knowing what he had was more illegal than the first guys crap...

OR: He showed pics of his crap on the INET not knowing (or maybe not caring) that it was illegal, thinkign he had anonymity...

OR: Someone saw him shooting crap he shouldn't have been at a public range (off duty LEO maybe)

OR: Elvis beamed his thoughts to Arnie who sent the hit squad out... haha


J

bwiese
07-17-2006, 9:11 AM
Sad to say, but he shoulda known.

Why the hell he didn't swap out the flash hider or reg his M1A, I dunno.

The ammo thing may be handwaving for emphasis. The bullets (as opposed to complete rounds) may or may not be 'evil', I'll have to read up on that. There could be confusion in terminology and law between 'bullets' and 'cartridges' leading to this (and the cop and DA may casually throw the term 'bullet' around interchangeably w/'cartridge'). Even if not, wonder if they could try a constructive possession charge on legal bullets, cases, etc., to assert that in fact evil ammo was present? Not sure...

Now, the AW possession charge is a wobbler. I take it there were no allegations of transport, manufacture, or importation?

Also, THIS IS WHY YOU NEVER RELY ON PHONE CALL INFO FROM DOJ OR ATF.
Written information is likely to be higher quality, but is not really much of a defense esp if it's from a desk clerk 'analyst' or even an agent.

Past history of legal conduct and/or being a veteran is no defense. Your boy needs a good lawyer.

Also, 50Shooter's directive to "... take their unregistered so called assault rifles out of the state" is flawed. That means you're only one busted taillight away from MULTIPLE 12280(a) felony charges instead of a single possible wobbler 12280(b). The correct thing to do is (1) destroy the weapon or arrange its legal surrender thru your lawyer if it's banned by name or (2) remove/replace/strip down evil features on an unlisted firearm until the firearm is compliant.

JPglee1
07-17-2006, 9:22 AM
Bill, would that wobbler be one that would preclude gun ownership for 10yrs after the conviction?

I know MOST misdemeanors DO NOT preclude you from hand or long gun ownership after clearing probation... but I'm not sure on that one.

If its a wobbler than there is no GUARANTEE it will be a misdemeanor, right?



JP

P.S. I can't believe its a wobbler misdemeanor to unlawfully carry a registered loaded handgun, thats almost a reasonable thing for them to do!

tcrpe
07-17-2006, 9:26 AM
How did they even know to get a search warrant for this guy in the first place? Was he flamboyantly displaying his M1A with flash suppressor and juggling his bullets in public?

Turby


Did they have probably cause?

How?

Toolbox X
07-17-2006, 9:28 AM
This is scary as hell.

Reasonable people should easily be able to look at the situation you described and see that your friend is not a danger to society, and at the very least putting him in prison would be a huge waste of our tax dollars.

If your friend can prove he legally possessed the M1A before the 2000 ban (up to 2 AW's), I know there is a provision to drop the charge to a misdemeanor. The felony charges from the incinderary rounds might negate that provision, but it's still worth a shot.

Your friends needs to get the best lawyer he can find, and contact the NRA, CRPA, and any other organizations that understand how insane this is and how it could happen to so many people who don't know they are breaking the law.

6172crew
07-17-2006, 9:31 AM
I think that DA could use about 200 letters on his desk asking why this case is important but they dont have time for all the violent cases. (My buddy is LASD) and he said they dont have time for even murder cases and will plead those.

bwiese
07-17-2006, 9:31 AM
Bill, would that wobbler be one that would preclude gun ownership for 10yrs after the conviction?

I don't think so.

If its a wobbler than there is no GUARANTEE it will be a misdemeanor, right?

Yup. In fact when I first read it it looked like it was only a misdemeanor.

They can charge it either way. And it gives some 'bait' to plead down to if they still wanna get something out of a prosecution.

JPglee1
07-17-2006, 9:31 AM
This is scary as hell.

Reasonable people should easily be able to look at the situation you described and see that your friend is not a danger to society, and at the very least putting him in prison would be a huge waste of our tax dollars.




Hopefully the jury will agree, if they aren't a bunch of liberal minorities from countries with archane gun laws that think all guns are evil...

I wish him the best of luck. We need to help him with a defense fund, this could be ANY one of us ya know! :eek:


J

Toolbox X
07-17-2006, 9:33 AM
Also, 50Shooter's directive to "... take their unregistered so called assault rifles out of the state" is flawed. That means you're only one busted taillight away from MULTIPLE 12280(a) felony charges instead of a single possible wobbler 12280(b). The correct thing to do is (1) destroy the weapon or arrange its legal surrender thru your lawyer if it's banned by name or (2) remove/replace/strip down evil features on an unlisted firearm until the firearm is compliant.

(3) A sledgehammer will make a named lower receiver compliant really fast. Just make sure you keep the part with the serial number to prove it is destroyed, especially if that serial number is tied to you or people connected to you.

JPglee1
07-17-2006, 9:35 AM
(3) A sledgehammer will make a named lower receiver compliant really fast. Just make sure you keep the part with the serial number to prove it is destroyed, especially if that serial number is tied to you or people connected to you.

I'd cut it in half and make it an ash tray :)


J

Toolbox X
07-17-2006, 9:40 AM
Bill should put more emphasis on how serious the felony charge is for transportation of an illegal AW.

There is another case in northern CA where a guy brought his unregistered AR to Reno to sell it. Long story short he didn't think he was offered enough money so he did not sell it. He was driving back, got pulled over, cop found it, multiple felony charges.

These felonies are not something you want to @#$% around with.

bwiese
07-17-2006, 9:55 AM
Bill should put more emphasis on how serious the felony charge is for transportation of an illegal AW.

There is another case in northern CA where a guy brought his unregistered AR to Reno to sell it. Long story short he didn't think he was offered enough money so he did not sell it. He was driving back, got pulled over, cop found it, multiple felony charges.


Yep, moving an unreg'd AW around can conceivably get you three felonies, esp if you're driving it back into CA as this drive-to-Reno guy did.

Anyone holding onto an unreg'd AW in CA is just plain stupid.

Either deconfigure it (if not listed) or destroy it if named. For this latter case, it may be best to call a lawyer and arrange for a legal surrender.

shooterx10
07-17-2006, 10:40 AM
Of course, this is total BS, over a piece of metal that is around 3" long with the holes configured the wrong way.

I bet if this incident happened in a more gun-friendly county, he wouldn't be in the amount of heat he is in now. This is not surprising since this incident was in LA County.

Since this is Southern Cal, Bruce Colodny is the one to call at http://www.gunlaw.com/ So, if any of you want to mount a legal defense fun for Mr. Miller's friend, this is probably the lawyer he'll need.

I don't know if any of you believe in a Higher Power (that's God), but I'm going to pray for him.

blkA4alb
07-17-2006, 10:45 AM
As much BS as this is, he was still breaking the law. And thats that. Being a veteran does not give him a get-out-of-jail-free card. He was in possession of an AW which is a simple fix to make compliant. Ignorance is not an excuse. I do wish the best for him and that they just drop the case though. Good luck!

50 Shooter
07-17-2006, 10:58 AM
Bill,
My advice was to fix the problem NOW! If you have either of these do it by any means possible. Do lose your gun rights for something stupid.

tenpercentfirearms
07-17-2006, 11:39 AM
We all know the laws do nothing to stop crime, but we all know the laws. It is hard to get all worked up for this or contribute to a legal defense fund when he was caught red handed. Again, this is only scary if you have assault weapons or tracer rounds. If you do, get rid of them!

JPglee1
07-17-2006, 11:43 AM
We all know the laws do nothing to stop crime, but we all know the laws. It is hard to get all worked up for this or contribute to a legal defense fund when he was caught red handed. Again, this is only scary if you have assault weapons or tracer rounds. If you do, get rid of them!

I'll contribute to a legal defense fund...

I still believe in the 2nd Amendment, regardless of our stupid laws. He didn't shoot anyone or cause any strife/harm with his "AW" so I don't think he should be getting a felony out of the deal and would like to help as much as I could.

It could just as easily be any one of us with an OLL gun and a DA bent on making an example...

If he robbed a bank with it, I would say fry his arse.

We need to know the rest of the situation, how the search happened, etc.



J

GJJ
07-17-2006, 11:48 AM
Yep. It is his fault. Just like it was the Jews fault for being in Nazi Germany in the 1930s. They should have known better (give me a break).

All laws are morally right and should be enforced because we all know that the Bill of Rights has nothing to do with what type of do-dad we stick on the end of our rifles.

That's not infringement. We should blame the victim.

glen avon
07-17-2006, 11:54 AM
It could just as easily be any one of us with an OLL gun and a DA bent on making an example... J

I disagree, there is no question as to the legality of an unregistered AW.

50 Shooter
07-17-2006, 12:01 PM
As far as DD's go, read on to make sure you're not in violation.

http://caag.state.ca.us/firearms/dwcl/12301.htm

Stanze
07-17-2006, 12:07 PM
SB-23 must be repealed, it's putting good people behind bars. I've known of several people that had unregistered "AW"s that had no idea they were in violation. These are good, hardworking, honest people that pay taxes. Repeal it now!

SC_00_05
07-17-2006, 12:09 PM
Yep. It is his fault. Just like it was the Jews fault for being in Nazi Germany in the 1930s. They should have known better (give me a break).

All laws are morally right and should be enforced because we all know that the Bill of Rights has nothing to do with what type of do-dad we stick on the end of our rifles.

That's not infringement. We should blame the victim.
Thank you for being the first to speak up. I hope the legislature passes a law saying that all gun owners must poke themself in the eye six times a day. I'm willing to bet about half would comply since "the law's the law".

artherd
07-17-2006, 12:11 PM
I disagree, there is no question as to the legality of an unregistered AW.
Since this AW hinges on the poor and overlapping definitions of "Flash Hider" and "Muzzle Brake", and nothing more, I disagree with your disagreement!

Going to jail because one item is "usually made with holes, or closed slots, or something, and this has open slots, even though it still reduced recoil your honor..."

Also, Tracer, incendiary, or actually Explosive (ie Mk211?) bullets? Or just AMAX?

blkA4alb
07-17-2006, 12:13 PM
Havn't seen you around here for awhile artherd. Welcome back! :p

bg
07-17-2006, 12:17 PM
I got the same letter. Wouldn't surprise, but would
sadden me, if these same tactics were not used to
locate OLL's, since those are up in the air as well.
I know someone will say they are legal and I have no
arguement with that. But if this is so, why the holdup
on the nothern cal confiscation ?

Come on let's face it. The cops nor politico's want
law abiding citizens to own or use/enjoy firearms.

artherd
07-17-2006, 12:18 PM
Thanks! I've been pretty busy with work as of late. Haven't actually had a chance to go shooting in ages :P

Hunter
07-17-2006, 12:24 PM
I have to agree, he was breaking the law... albeit a stupid law, he wasn't in compliance and thats the shiz that happens.

FH on an M1A = felony, we all know that

Incindiary bullets are clearly called out as illegal in the CA regs...


With that said, does homeboy got a legal defense fund? I got $ I can help with.

J

The law banning incindiary and tracers was ORIGINALLY for cartridges ONLY. At that time, one could have the bullets but not loaded rounds. But sometime after 1992 I believe the law was changed to ban "projectiles". I can remember when one could go to the Cow Palace show in the early 90's and buy bags of the 30 cal orange tip bullets. I can see how some people, whom do not keep up on the changes, could still have some INC or T bullets in their collections. Now loaded rounds on the other hand have been banned for a lot longer than I can recall.

glen avon
07-17-2006, 12:27 PM
Thank you for being the first to speak up. I hope the legislature passes a law saying that all gun owners must poke themself in the eye six times a day. I'm willing to bet about half would comply since "the law's the law".

of course you never comply with laws that offend your well-defined set of personal ethics, ain't that right Mr. Thoreau?

glen avon
07-17-2006, 12:30 PM
Since this AW hinges on the poor and overlapping definitions of "Flash Hider" and "Muzzle Brake", ...

there is no credible argument that the GI-type flash hider is anything but a flash hider.

you can disagree all you like, but this one is easy. this is not a matter of something designed, used and sold for decades as a muzzle brake suddenly being deemd a flash hider. it's the other way around.

SC_00_05
07-17-2006, 12:40 PM
of course you never comply with laws that offend your well-defined set of personal ethics, ain't that right Mr. Thoreau?
Sorry, I'm not ready to accept being the state's official whipping boy for simply owning firearms. Please don't let me stop you, however, from following all the laws, no matter how ridiculous. As I'm sure you know, the key is, if you are going to break the law (which I'd never do of course), just be smart about it and stay low.

50 Shooter
07-17-2006, 12:59 PM
I got the same email from John, I think Tom emailed him the info about his friend. John Burtt use to live in Riverside and knows Tom also.

GJJ
07-17-2006, 1:06 PM
This is kind of off the subject. But, I could never imagine being part of an organization (DOJ, BATFE, ect..) where I would be compelled to ruin peoples lives for breaking laws that I knew were unconstitutional or just plain silly.

I know that most cops are good people. I would even go as far as saying that most guys that joined DOJ or BATFE want to make a positive difference in society by stopping criminals. But, the day I had to put away some basically honest guy for a stupid piece of metal on the end of a rifle would be the day I quit. They couldn't pay me enough.

50 Shooter
07-17-2006, 1:09 PM
Here's the latest info from Tom.

Someone got into a jam with the task force, and gave up my friend's name as having the flash hider on the M1A. That's how law enforcement works it... they get something on someone and then informs them how they can help themself out by giving up someone else they might know who is dirty. This is fine if we are talking about major crime, but to have to stoop this low is amazing to me. I always focused on serious crimes against society, not this nitpicky minor stuff. But, it is not minor to my friend. He's most likely going to become a convicted felon, have to give up all his firearms and spend some time in prison. Unbelievable. California is out of control. Now they are trying to make any rifle that has a detachable mag and isn't already an assault rifle, an assault rifle and would require registration. This is our attorney generals latest plan. As I understand it, this would include rimfires. This will get Ruger mini 14's, and CA legal Springfield M1A's that have a muzzle brake instead of the flash hider. Anyway, what's left for me is to get out of here sooner than later. I'm working on that as we speak. Tom

The Soup Nazi
07-17-2006, 1:24 PM
Thats a whole bunch of crap. My parents didn't leave Chi Comm to go to Taiwan to leave there to escape from Chinese influence to encounter MORE communist influence in the United States of America. Quote Captain Picard, Star Trek First Contact: "The line must be drawn here. This far, no further!"

What a way to show your appreciation for someone who put his life on the line so you could go get a BS (emphasis on BS) degree in law and screw over people who didn't follow asinine laws.

glen avon
07-17-2006, 1:38 PM
I think there is more to it than an unregistered M1A.

no matter how corrupt or evil law enforcement is (and I don't think it is), there simply *must* be better things to do. there has got to be more to this story.

6172crew
07-17-2006, 1:54 PM
I think there is more to it than an unregistered M1A.

no matter how corrupt or evil law enforcement is (and I don't think it is), there simply *must* be better things to do. there has got to be more to this story.
But if this is pretty much what happened then in fact the brown shirts are out of control.

I heard awhile back there was a 1800# to call to snitch on your neighbor program, I wonder if this is how it happened. Seems as though the ATF and state agencies are working close on this, I wonder what happens when they come across pot plants during these raids. Doesnt seem to bother the law makers when folks grown dope in CA.

50 Freak
07-17-2006, 1:57 PM
I think there is more to it than an unregistered M1A.


Okay, lets say this guy is not some child molesting racist terrorist jihadist. And that the bust was for a FH on a old M1A/M14 and a couple of bullets (not full cartriges, but just the bullet heads). Would you still agree to send this guy up the creek?

Something just irks me about having a gun that is completely legal when you bought it, and then having to register it as an AW, as if it's not, the gun you've had for years and years is now illegal. Something just stinks there. Isn't this borderline Post de-facto laws?

glen avon
07-17-2006, 2:04 PM
if he did indeed have an uregistered M1A AW and some unloaded tracer bullets I think it would be unfair and unjust to send him up a creek.

and I think the overwhelming majority of LE would agree, that's why I think there is more to this. that, and how did they see bullets when they were looking for a rifle?

JPglee1
07-17-2006, 2:25 PM
Here's the latest info from Tom.

Someone got into a jam with the task force, and gave up my friend's name as having the flash hider on the M1A.


Yep, I called that one...


Thats the only way cops get anything done most the time cuz they are so spread thin w/out enough $$$$... Tips get the work done.

Sad it had to happen that way. Even sadder if the dude that dimed him knew it was illegal and never told him...


J

glen avon
07-17-2006, 2:27 PM
FYI:

Penal Code section 12301. (a) The term "destructive device," as used in this chapter, shall include any of the following weapons:
(1) Any projectile containing any explosive or incendiary material or any other chemical substance, including, but not limited to, that which is commonly known as tracer or incendiary ammunition, except tracer ammunition manufactured for use in shotguns.

so incendiary bullets are enough.

huh.

50 Freak
07-17-2006, 2:30 PM
Are AP rifle ammo legal???

I'm going to have to go through my ammo collection. Make sure there are not thermal nuclear warhead 22LRs.....:D

JPglee1
07-17-2006, 2:32 PM
I disagree, there is no question as to the legality of an unregistered AW.


I agree, except that in this case it was an M1A that had been owned for years and the man might not have known it was 1 simple little part away from being illegal.

If it was an evil black rifle like an AK or AR that everyone knows is illegal in CA now, I would think differently...

The sad thing is he could have simply taken it off and set it next to the rifle and been 100% legal.

Maybe he'll have some sympathetic jurors...


J

glen avon
07-17-2006, 2:33 PM
Even sadder if the dude that dimed him knew it was illegal and never told him...
J

yes, but how many people do you know, that you show your guns to or shoot with, that would not immediately inform you of their opinion of the legality of one of your guns? I don't know of any on my part. If his friend thought it was illegal, I would bet fair money he had told him of his opinion at least once.

not that his "friend" isn't a steaming pile of crap from what we know right now.

but I think we will see that this was not about the M1A. if it was, they would have stopped the search when they found it, and almost certainly not have found the bullets. do you keep unloaded bullets in plain sight of your guns? I think most of us do not. we keep them in boxes on a shelf.

6172crew
07-17-2006, 2:33 PM
FYI:

Penal Code section 12301. (a) The term "destructive device," as used in this chapter, shall include any of the following weapons:
(1) Any projectile containing any explosive or incendiary material or any other chemical substance, including, but not limited to, that which is commonly known as tracer or incendiary ammunition, except tracer ammunition manufactured for use in shotguns.

so incendiary bullets are enough.

huh.

Yikes, I had a .50bmg API round left over from my Somalia deployment and gave it to a guy working the froont desk at a autobody shop. Hope he got rid of it.:eek:

JPglee1
07-17-2006, 2:41 PM
s not about the M1A. if it was, they would have stopped the search when they found it, and almost certainly not have found the bullets. do you keep unloaded bullets in plain sight of your guns? I think most of us do not. we keep them in boxes on a shelf.


Well...

1) LEO doesn't stop searching once they start... why would they stop looking for more evidence :D A gun is a big item it can fit in lots of places that other illegal items can fit and so they will look anywhere they can that a gun would fit since it would be legit on the warrant. Now if they pilfered in his sock drawer and the warrent was SPECIFICALLY for a long rifle ONLY it would get tossed, but most magistrates write the warrant as a blanket warrant for anything illegal that is found and they usually cover the residence, out buildings, cars, garages, etc.

2) As we speak I infact do have loose rounds and a couple boxes of primers on the floor of my closet next to my rifle... So its not impossible to think he might have... I had a box of wolf 762x39 spill open and I havent picked it up yet, so anyone that saw my rifle would see those also.

But, in my case, no one would see them inside my home, out at a shoot maybe, but I don't have any illegal guns anyway so its a moot point.


This will be an interesting case for sure!


J

JPglee1
07-17-2006, 2:43 PM
FYI:

Penal Code section 12301. (a) The term "destructive device," as used in this chapter, shall include any of the following weapons:
(1) Any projectile containing any explosive or incendiary material or any other chemical substance, including, but not limited to, that which is commonly known as tracer or incendiary ammunition, except tracer ammunition manufactured for use in shotguns.

so incendiary bullets are enough.

huh.


What happens if they have the paint stripped off them and you don't KNOW they are API or Incindiary...

Can you imagine going to a shoot with LEO present and lighting off a tracer on accident cuz you bought a loose bundle of loaded rounds that had the paint worn off... *YIKES*


J

vonsmith
07-17-2006, 2:45 PM
Well...

But, in my case, no one would see them inside my home, out at a shoot maybe,
but I don't have any illegal guns anyway so its a moot point.

J
As far as you know you don't. :D


=vonsmith=

glen avon
07-17-2006, 2:48 PM
I hear that happens every once in a while.

if it was only one, that would be a tough case to prosecute. no proof, the bullet is history.

however - if you get caught with one tracer, with the paint worn off, that is still a violation (so long as you intended to possess the bullet in the first place). it's a general intent crime.

JPglee1
07-17-2006, 2:51 PM
As far as you know you don't. :D


=vonsmith=


As far as the law is written Today, July 17th 3:50pm I am 100% legal with all my firearms. If something changes in the law in the future that is beyond my control.


J

50 Freak
07-17-2006, 2:52 PM
I'm starting the believe the laws are written in such a way, that all guns will be illegal in one form or another. The way it is now, I'd bet more than 50% of all gun owners in CA are in violation of some gun law or another.

Sort of like car laws. You cannot drive from your house to the local supermarket without breaking one law or another almost.

So much for America being the land of the free.

Hell, I've felt more free in Russia when I visited there.

Mute
07-17-2006, 3:06 PM
The biggest problem with this whole story is the arbitrary nature of the enforcement. We all know that M1A violates the existing AWB laws but he's in the same boat as about 90%+ of all gunowners who bought AWs before 2000 (if you believe the estimated compliance rates).

A majority of these other gunowners also are in possession of items that, if the law is applied evenly, qualifies for the same prosecution attempts, yet most of them have not and probably never will. This is both a good and a bad thing. It means you're unlikely to get arrested, if we're just looking strictly at numbers. However, this also means that there's an element of selective prosecution. How can anyone expect there to be respect for law and order when this is becoming the nature of law enforcement?

I suspect as many other posters have noted, that there is probably more background story. That still doesn't change the fact that enforcement of the AWB seems to be predicated on a whim or just the need to showboat.

stag1500
07-17-2006, 3:19 PM
Why don't we pass this story along to the JPFO (Jews for the Preservation of Firearms Ownership)? Those guys passionately hate the BATFE. Maybe they can use this story in further exposing the tyranny of the BATFE and the Kalifornia Department of Injustice.

bwiese
07-17-2006, 4:25 PM
Does anyone know if there were allegations of full-auto guns or other similar kind of activities?

Awhile back we had a fire chief (or something like that) up in the Sierrras who was busted for an unreg'd AR, some AP rounds(?), and a sniperscope. The AR turned out to be reg'd, other charges were dropped as to ammo, and the sniperscope thing was a misdemeanor that resulted in a fine. That's my dim recollection of the disposition.

50 Freak
07-17-2006, 4:43 PM
What's a "sniperscope".

Is that just a regular rifle scope? If it is, boy am I in trouble as are a ton of people on this very forum.

Is is a night vision scope capable of being mounted on a rifle? or what?

glen avon
07-17-2006, 4:45 PM
What's a "sniperscope".

Is is a night vision scope capable of being mounted on a rifle? or what?

yes, it's an NVD that projects IR radiation and is mounted on a firearm.

bwiese
07-17-2006, 4:46 PM
What's a "sniperscope".

Is that just a regular rifle scope? If it is, boy am I in trouble as are a ton of people on this very forum.

Is is a night vision scope capable of being mounted on a rifle? or what?

This was a thread several months ago.
Sniperscope is defined in PC as having an attached illuminator.
It's OK to have an infrared scope, but if it has attached IR illuminator, it's an (illegal) sniperscope. Open question as to whether it's still a sniperscope if batteries are removed.

Can't remember if the item itself is illegal, or only illegal if mounted on gun.

Some of the stuff ATN sells fits this category.

glen avon
07-17-2006, 4:46 PM
I did a google search and found nothing on any LA Co. Task Force focussing on guns.

bwiese
07-17-2006, 4:48 PM
I did a google search and found nothing on any LA Co. Task Force focussing on guns.

'Task force' may be 3 cops needing relaxed duty ;)

glen avon
07-17-2006, 4:49 PM
What's a "sniperscope".

your answer is here (http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showpost.php?p=318323&postcount=3)

glen avon
07-17-2006, 4:50 PM
and what ever happened with the CAS shooter bust a few months ago? these busts always start out big and disappear.

50 Freak
07-17-2006, 4:55 PM
So can you have a regular night vision scope and have an IR illuminator attached to your cap or in a headband. Wouldn't that be technically legal?

and what ever happened with the CAS shooter bust a few months ago? these busts always start out big and disappear.
And typically gun busts are plea bargained out. The DA or LE dept is looking for a big "splash" for the headlines. Then they try to get you to plea bargain down with threats of living your life in jail forever. But when it comes down to it, they don't want this to go to court and will often drop all charges as the trial date gets closer.

glen avon
07-17-2006, 4:58 PM
yes, but foolish if you are hunting two-legged critters, as any IR projector will look like a flashlight.

for night shooting, it would work just fine. as would IR floodlights (which are made).

50 Freak
07-17-2006, 5:00 PM
yes, but foolish if you are hunting two-legged critters, as any IR projector will look like a flashlight.

for night shooting, it would work just fine. as would IR floodlights (which are made).

That's why I like to nuke them from orbit. Only way to be sure....:D :D

SemiAutoSam
07-17-2006, 5:00 PM
yes, it's an NVD that projects IR radiation and is mounted on a firearm.


projects IR radiation to illuminate the target ?

Or any IR light on the weapon or scope ?

SemiAutoSam
07-17-2006, 5:11 PM
Illegal if capable of being mounted on a gun AND it works via the use of projected IR from an illuminator mounted on the rifle or the scope.

The definition also includes the term "electronic telescope".

Does this mean that this AN/PVS4 is against the law ?
http://i80.photobucket.com/albums/j184/mag-lock/ANPVS4.jpg


Here is a link to a AN/PVS4 listed on ebay for 900.00
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=250009316801&fromMakeTrack=true

glen avon
07-17-2006, 5:29 PM
criminy please do a little footwork yourselves

penal code section 468. Any person who knowingly buys, sells, receives, disposes of,
conceals, or has in his possession a sniperscope shall be guilty of a
misdemeanor, punishable by a fine not to exceed one thousand
dollars ($1,000) or by imprisonment in the county jail for not more
than one year, or by both such fine and imprisonment.
As used in this section, sniperscope means any attachment, device
or similar contrivance designed for or adaptable to use on a firearm
which, through the use of a projected infrared light source and
electronic telescope, enables the operator thereof to visually
determine and locate the presence of objects during the nighttime.

the PVS4 itself does not project IR radiation so it is not illegal but they attract black helicopters and IRS agents, so.... ;)

SemiAutoSam
07-17-2006, 5:31 PM
Why don't we pass this story along to the JPFO (Jews for the Preservation of Firearms Ownership)? Those guys passionately hate the BATFE. Maybe they can use this story in further exposing the tyranny of the BATFE and the Kalifornia Department of Injustice.

Here ya go

http://www.jpfo.org/

dwtt
07-17-2006, 6:17 PM
Does this mean that this AN/PVS4 is against the law ?
http://i80.photobucket.com/albums/j184/mag-lock/ANPVS4.jpg


Here is a link to a AN/PVS4 listed on ebay for 900.00
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=250009316801&fromMakeTrack=true
That's legal, it's an image intensifier that doesn't have an IR light source lighting up the subject. If you can, get a generation 3 image intensifier, the image quality is better and it'll last longer.

BTW, I also got the email from FCSA and anticipated the BATF visit, but I don't live in LA and my rifle is registered, so they'll have to go away disappointed. I do have 500 rounds of 700gr AP .50 cal bullets, but they're legal.

SemiAutoSam
07-17-2006, 6:21 PM
That's legal, it's an image intensifier that doesn't have an IR light source lighting up the subject.


Well it works better with a light source but will also work without it.

To be illegal does the IR light source have to be attached to the weapon or Starlight scope ?

IE if the IR light is attached to a vehicle and the person using the scope/weapon is not in or on the vehicle ?

Cato
07-17-2006, 6:21 PM
SB-23 must be repealed, it's putting good people behind bars. I've known of several people that had unregistered "AW"s that had no idea they were in violation. These are good, hardworking, honest people that pay taxes. Repeal it now!


How we gonna do that in this state?

SemiAutoSam
07-17-2006, 6:23 PM
How we gonna do that in this state?

Simple just evict the anti's and the dems to another state ohh say like New Jersey.

Its too bad our numbers arent greater. If there were more of US than of THEM and all of us VOTED we could repeal it no contest.

Evil Gun
07-17-2006, 6:40 PM
Another reason I moved to Arizona.

50 Freak
07-17-2006, 6:57 PM
Another reason I moved to Arizona.

no offense, but why are you still here. This board was created for those of us caught behind the lines. Not for people living in the other "free" states to remind us of our state's shortcomings.

stevie
07-17-2006, 7:10 PM
Cause its a "free country" outside of CA :rolleyes:

glen avon
07-17-2006, 7:31 PM
Simple just evict the anti's and the dems to another state ohh say like New Jersey....

why Joisey? they don't talk crap on us. our brothers in NJ need our help, not our politicians.

I say send all of the antis and libs to, ohhh, ARIZONA! :D :D :D

SemiAutoSam
07-17-2006, 7:33 PM
why Joisey? they don't talk crap on us. our brothers in NJ need our help, not our politicians.

I say send all of the antis and libs to, ohhh, ARIZONA! :D :D :D

OK that works with me after around this time of year its almost like HELL there and I can't think of a better place for OUR politicians and antis than HELL.

Spiggy
07-17-2006, 8:07 PM
psh, I say we send them to North Korea and have KJI deal with them

stag1500
07-17-2006, 9:25 PM
Why don't we buy them plane tickets to France? Their Socialist views would be widely accepted over there.

The Soup Nazi
07-17-2006, 9:26 PM
Why don't we buy them plane tickets to France? Their Socialist views would be widely accepted over there.

They'll feel right at home coming up with ways for another country's immigration and unemployment problems. Subsidized bread, right? And by bread, they mean pate rolled up in a pastry.

accordingtoome
07-17-2006, 10:42 PM
you can't own a .50 cal bullet??

blkA4alb
07-17-2006, 10:56 PM
you can't own a .50 cal bullet??
:confused: Of course you can, as long as its not incendiary or a tracer. AP rifle bullets are legal. This guy had incendiary bullets.