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View Full Version : saiga-12 models


mdades
07-15-2006, 9:25 PM
if anyone has one of these
to sell, please see my ad
# 45 at yahoo calgunsale.

(i hope posting this way is
okay, with the for sale
forum down)

M. Sage
07-15-2006, 10:51 PM
Wouldn't you have to fix the magazine into the rifle? Any shottie with a detachable mag is illegal, IIRC.

If so, how would you load it?

Can't wait till I move out of CA. First big "fun" purchase I make will probably be a Saiga with evil features.

JPglee1
07-15-2006, 10:54 PM
Wouldn't you have to fix the magazine into the rifle? Any shottie with a detachable mag is illegal, IIRC.

If so, how would you load it?

Can't wait till I move out of CA. First big "fun" purchase I make will probably be a Saiga with evil features.


SAIGA w/a "sporting" stock...not a PG.


J

kantstudien
07-15-2006, 11:02 PM
Any semi-auto shotgun with a detachable magazine is an "***-salt weapon"

JPglee1
07-15-2006, 11:04 PM
Oh yah, I forgot about that part...good call... Its late and I'm tanked.


J

M. Sage
07-15-2006, 11:06 PM
Oh yah, I forgot about that part...good call... Its late and I'm tanked.


J

Oops, I said "any shottie" when I meant "any SEMI AUTO shottie." My fault.

Late... and I need to be tanked. :P

grammaton76
07-15-2006, 11:20 PM
The Saiga-12 is a banned-by-name shotgun if I remember right. Can't have it in CA period.

chiefcrash
07-18-2006, 3:15 PM
i always kinda wondered what was so "evil" about a detachable mag on a shotgun...

I'm also wondering if the 10-round mag rule applies to shotguns. what if you had a REALLY long tube extention...

Stanze
07-18-2006, 3:39 PM
i always kinda wondered what was so "evil" about a detachable mag on a shotgun...

I'm also wondering if the 10-round mag rule applies to shotguns. what if you had a REALLY long tube extention...

Nothing is evil about a detachable mag shotgun. We lost that freedom because anti-gun people were elected to office, that's democracy at work.

You can use those minishell shotgun rounds that get more than 10 in a extended tube.:D http://www.the-armory.com/shopsite_sc/store/html/aguila.html

M. Sage
07-18-2006, 6:55 PM
Nothing is evil about a detachable mag shotgun. We lost that freedom because anti-gun people were elected to office, that's democracy at work.

You can use those minishell shotgun rounds that get more than 10 in a extended tube.:D http://www.the-armory.com/shopsite_sc/store/html/aguila.html


Detachables are fine on any shotgun but a semi-auto...

chiefcrash
07-18-2006, 9:17 PM
Nothing is evil about a detachable mag shotgun. We lost that freedom because anti-gun people were elected to office, that's democracy at work.

You can use those minishell shotgun rounds that get more than 10 in a extended tube.:D http://www.the-armory.com/shopsite_sc/store/html/aguila.html

well, *i* know there's nothing evil about them. i was alway kinda curious about what justification the idiots used...

M. Sage
07-18-2006, 9:22 PM
well, *i* know there's nothing evil about them. i was alway kinda curious about what justification the idiots used...

The fast reload time. Compare reloading a tubular mag to just swapping the box mag.

Anything that holds ammo in a detachable box is bad enough in their eyes, but a shotgun? Wow, just too much.

Mudvayne540ld
07-18-2006, 11:17 PM
just make sure you dont use a revolving cylinder on any shotgun!!!!!

mdades
07-19-2006, 10:15 AM
i got cut off the calgunsale
forum at yahoo for posting
the ad. i assumed there
was some legal way to buy
one of these. does anyone
know of a legal semi-auto
shotgun with a magazine
torwards the rear? perhaps
something like the saiga-12,
but with a fixed mag that
would be legal here, perhaps
an internal mag of some sort
similar to some rifles i've
seen, or even a rear tube
mag in the butt like some
.22 rifles. i'd really hate
to settle for a single-shot
shotgun.


m ades

Pokey
07-19-2006, 11:10 AM
About the only option that I can think of is the EAA PM-5. 7rnd mag fed pump, they are fast but a little tough to find. I have one and if you're anywhere around the central coast your welcome to test drive.

jessegpresley
07-19-2006, 4:55 PM
i got cut off the calgunsale
forum at yahoo for posting
the ad. i assumed there
was some legal way to buy
one of these. does anyone
know of a legal semi-auto
shotgun with a magazine
torwards the rear? perhaps
something like the saiga-12,
but with a fixed mag that
would be legal here, perhaps
an internal mag of some sort
similar to some rifles i've
seen, or even a rear tube
mag in the butt like some
.22 rifles. i'd really hate
to settle for a single-shot
shotgun.


m ades


Oh yeah, you're the same guy who swears the DOJ told him he could do a mail order FFL transfer of a Kel-Tec P32.

Why would you have to settle for "a single-shot shotgun"? There are any number of semi-auto shotguns that hold up to 7 rounds, and the Valtro PM-5 is a pump action that takes 7 round magazines.

http://img.inkfrog.com/pix/saintelvis/shot1.jpg

VeryCoolCat
07-19-2006, 6:22 PM
What the hell is that at the bottom?

M. Sage
07-19-2006, 6:30 PM
I'd say that's the Valtro PM-5... like it said above. :P

I was just re-reading the CA shotguns section because someone I video game with (he's from Texas) just got a Saiga...

It looks like you can have a semi auto with a vertical grip, as long as you don't have a detachable mag or a folding (or telescoping) stock... OR

You can have a folding (or telescoping), non-thumbhole stock without a vertical grip. Strange.

double_action
07-19-2006, 7:14 PM
Looks pretty cool . . .

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=52631160

mdades
07-20-2006, 3:18 AM
pokey- thanks, but
unfortunatly a pump takes
two hands and i can only use
one hand at a time. i
covered the reason why along
with the other reasons i
wanted that shotgun and
could not actually use
anything else in that ad i
posted on calgunsale at
yahoo, and in the thread i
put in the legal forum here.

jesse- see the ad or the
discussion with regard to the
single-shot. as to the
kel-tec, i've been told on
calgunsale by the guy who
started it not to discuss it
there or he will keep editing
my posts. on here, i was
told not to discuss the
issue by a moderator, who
was a lot more pleasant than
the guy at calgunsale. oh,
and i'm not a guy...

marianne ades

grammaton76
07-20-2006, 1:32 PM
Question - how willing are you to take this to court/whatnot?

In your case, you've got a bona fide handicap/disability issue which prevents you from engaging in the shooting sports without a shotgun that's restricted.

I don't want to get your hopes up, but maybe you could try hassling the DOJ about it. There's a process by which they can approve the import and subsequent registration of an assault weapon for regular citizens. However - they charge you up front, if they deny it you're out the money, and they always deny it.

My point is that perhaps you could talk to the DOJ and some lawyers about getting them to actually approve one of those import permits for you. In which case, you'd be able to buy a Saiga from free America.

Now, as for something with the weight balance more towards the rear, take a look at this:

http://www.cheapspeech.com/Pics/Friends/Brian/BullpupShotgun//s_dsc09353.jpg

It's pump action and (just barely) meets the CA minimum length requirements. You could pump that with one hand if, for example, you were to attach a long stick to the front, with a side support for your foot (pump it by hitting the stick on the ground, then step on the side support to rack it forward).

Edit: just discovered I didn't use img tags.

mdades
07-20-2006, 3:34 PM
thanks for the advice and
photo link. what is the
make and model? it's not
listed on that page. do you
just pump it by moving the
forward grip back and
forth? and where is the
magazine? there does not
look like there is enough
length under the barrel.

grammaton76
07-20-2006, 3:49 PM
thanks for the advice and
photo link. what is the
make and model? it's not
listed on that page.

That's a Maverick 88 Bullpup, manufactured by Mossberg. Cost $400 off of Gunbroker; it's my roomie's gun, not mine. You can usually find them on Gunbroker by searching for "mossberg bullpup" or "maverick bullpup" or "bullpup shotgun".

do you
just pump it by moving the
forward grip back and
forth?

Correct.

and where is the
magazine? there does not
look like there is enough
length under the barrel.

Actually, there is, because the action is moved way back. The bullpup design places the action behind the pistol grip (right where you can see the ejection port), and immediately forward of the bulge in the stock, is the magazine tube. It holds 5 rounds, if I remember right. You might even be able to load mini shells in it, although I'm not sure.

bwiese
07-20-2006, 5:09 PM
Question - how willing are you to take this to court/whatnot?

In your case, you've got a bona fide handicap/disability issue which prevents you from engaging in the shooting sports without a shotgun that's restricted.

I don't want to get your hopes up, but maybe you could try hassling the DOJ about it. There's a process by which they can approve the import and subsequent registration of an assault weapon for regular citizens. However - they charge you up front, if they deny it you're out the money, and they always deny it.

DOJ will NOT give out a special needs permit for AWs. Their issuance is discretionary and they can't be sued for not giving one out to handicapped.

The only AW permit they will give out is MAWP for military folks temporarily stationed in CA.

Spiggy
07-20-2006, 10:35 PM
iirc, aint too hard to finger a shell into a tube unless you dont have fingers :confused:

no offense to my fingerless freinds

mdades
07-20-2006, 11:00 PM
thanks for the info. i did
not realize it was a bullpup
design because the photo was
so dark. actually, i have
never heard of a bullpup
shotgun- only rifles. i
always though the design
was better as long as you
did not need a longer sight
radius. i also always
thought they were neat
looking.
this might work- i could
just stick the stock between
my arm and my side, and hold
onto the forward grip. it
would however, require me
to actuate the trigger
remotely... i can do that
with just a solenoid, a
battery, and a switch on
the forward grip. should
be pretty easy, although i
might need to find someone
to machine a clamp that
would fit on the trigger
guard to hold the solenoid.

but, does anyone know if
an electrically-actuated
trigger is illegal?

oh, and any chance there
are after-market carbon
fiber stock available for
this gun?

thanks,

m ades.

ps is this still available
in mossberg's current
inventory, or is it only
available on the used
market? i tried looking
at the mossberg website,
but the site just does not
seem to work well.

grammaton76
07-21-2006, 1:31 AM
thanks for the info. i did
not realize it was a bullpup
design because the photo was
so dark.

Ah, you must be on a CRT. I usually calibrate my pics for LCD monitors, sorry... contrast ratio usually shows up better that way.

actually, i have never heard of a bullpup shotgun- only rifles. i always though the design was better as long as you did not need a longer sight radius. i also always thought they were neat looking.

Yup. To my knowledge, this is the only bullpup shotgun design that's even somewhat readily available on the market. It's a pretty solid design, too - it was designed as a bullpup from the factory, so it doesn't have all the same problems as a third-party conversion kit.

this might work- i could just stick the stock between my arm and my side, and hold onto the forward grip. it would however, require me to actuate the trigger remotely... i can do that with just a solenoid, a battery, and a switch on the forward grip.

Yep. And if you want to pay a gunsmith to get inside it, he could probably install the solenoid on the "real" trigger, which is farther back inside the stock. However, you'll need to get him to disable the secondary safety. This particular model has a secondary safety, such that unless you're gripping the rear pistol grip, it won't fire. You could probably defeat that with a clamp of some sort.

should be pretty easy, although i might need to find someone to machine a clamp that would fit on the trigger guard to hold the solenoid.

Entirely possible.

but, does anyone know if an electrically-actuated trigger is illegal?

You'd be in danger of it being considered a multi-burst trigger actuator IF it would pull the trigger more than once per pull of the trigger. A simple solenoid should not present this problem.

oh, and any chance there are after-market carbon fiber stock available for this gun?

There's after-market stocks for the Maverick 88, but the bullpup itself is a factory installed custom stock on the maverick 88. I think this is the only bullpup model out there. The polymer is really tough, but you may be looking for light - which this isn't, exactly.

ps is this still available in mossberg's current inventory, or is it only available on the used market? i tried looking at the mossberg website, but the site just does not seem to work well.

I don't think it's presently offered. From what I understand, this was marketed to LE and never caught on, and was discontinued in the early to mid 90s. My first exposure to it was when I bought an Airsoft version of it in Japan. If you look closely, you'll see these shotguns on Battlestar Galactica (season 1, the initial prison break episode), Stargate (the original movie), and a number of other sci-fi movies.

I think the used market is the only way to get this.

By the way, be careful with modifications to it. The barrel is like .5" or so over legal and the OAL just barely squeaks by. You don't want to mess with that and have legal problems.

rssslvr
07-21-2006, 2:09 AM
There is one on gunbroker right now NIB for $665
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=52549334

rssslvr
07-21-2006, 2:17 AM
What about this shotgun.Would it be legal here
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=52855830

saki302
07-21-2006, 2:38 AM
Beat me to it. The high Standard Model 10B is FULLY CA legal
(no folding stock) and it's a semi-auto.. If you can stomach the $1000 price tag. If you want a compact semi, this would be your only choice.
And it's not banned by name or characteristics.

http://216.219.239.217/%7Eadmin26/1/1/1%203746.jpg
http://216.219.239.217/%7Eadmin26/1/1/1%203745.jpg

The listed model looks like it has the removable flashlight, which is preferred (mag-lite- yay high tech!).

I saw one for sale at Costa Mesa after the 2000 ban, but it was pricey to me then ($750).
The butt plate spins freely presumably to let you shoot around corners better. It has a distinctly tail-heavy balance when handled. I think mag capacity is 4 or 5.

-Dave

rssslvr
07-21-2006, 2:43 AM
Yeah $1000 is pretty spendy.I think iI would go with a benelli M4 first for that kind of money

mdades
07-21-2006, 2:55 AM
thanks for the help. yes, i
do use a crt.

just put a bid on the one at
gunbroker- weird, though,
it did not come up in my
search on that site. thanks
for letting me know.

grammaton76
07-21-2006, 3:24 AM
That 10b is pretty neat actually. Never seen it before.

mdades
07-21-2006, 3:57 AM
i decided to bid on the
high standard since it fits
my needs a bit better than
the maverick- but the seller
insists on getting a phone
call first, so i guess i'll
have to do that. thanks for
telling me. unfortunately,
i may have to buy the
maverick too, since there
does not seem to be any way
to cancel my bid. i assumed
gunbroker was like ebay in
that i could do that.

JPglee1
07-21-2006, 7:17 AM
By the way, be careful with modifications to it. The barrel is like .5" or so over legal and the OAL just barely squeaks by. You don't want to mess with that and have legal problems.

Do you mean 26" OAL or 30" OAL?

Since it's a semi I'm assuming 30"



J

bwiese
07-21-2006, 11:08 AM
Do you mean 26" OAL or 30" OAL?

Since it's a semi I'm assuming 30"


The exceptional 30" limit that triggers AW status only applies to semiautomatic centerfire rifles.

It does not apply to shotguns, where std 26" limit applies.

jessegpresley
07-21-2006, 11:48 AM
There is one on gunbroker right now NIB for $665
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=52549334

A few months ago those were goin' for around $300 on Gunbroker.

saki302
07-21-2006, 1:02 PM
To cancel gunbroker bids you have to email the seller, and have them email the admin to do it. The REALLY don't like cancelled bids there- had to do it once for a bidder.

-Dave

grammaton76
07-24-2006, 3:57 AM
Do you mean 26" OAL or 30" OAL?

Since it's a semi I'm assuming 30"

Dunno what the measurements are on the 10b; I was talking about the Maverick bullpup, which is a pump.