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chickenfried
07-14-2006, 4:09 PM
Anybody have any experience with these rifles?

http://www.aimsurplus.com/acatalog/New_Rifles_.html

TonyNorCal
07-14-2006, 4:56 PM
A few problems exist with these...

1.) They have 12 round mags which aren't legal to import.

2.) They're not safe to fire .308 commercial ammo in (even in small doses). And, they are likely at the edge of what's safe for 7.62 Nato. I had a long talk with Dennis Kroh about this (owner of Empire Arms, definetly knows his stuff and is a straight shooter).

Here's what he said...

When these first arrived on our shores they sold 20. Out of the 20, 16 developed excessive headspace issues (some after firing only a box or two of commercial .308. So, 16 became wall hangers. He is also aware of one catastrophic failure that caused a serious injury (luckily not from a rifle he sold, but at a local range). Now, to their credit AIM does say use only 7.62 NATO ammo. However, Dennis feels that even this is pushing the limit for these rifles. Contrary to what some say these were not made out of any special steel.

Even if you already have mags I would pass on these. Sometimes one's safety is worth more than a 169 dollar rifle.

3.) One more thing...these being less than 50 years of age...require an FFL 1.


From a post Dennis made...

Actually we neither buy nor sell Ishapore Enfields chambered in 7.62 NATO.
We had done so when they were first imported, but over HALF of the ones we bought and sold during that period ended up with headspace problems that relegated them to "wallhanger" status after firing as little as one box of commercial .308 Winchester ammo in them.

The first sign of trouble was that the extractor broke off and the owners wanted to know where they could obtain a replacement extractor.

Further inspection of their rifle found that the headspace of every one of the suspect rifles (though they had been previously checked by us before selling them) had been stretched beyond FIELD limits and were no longer safe to fire (it was the extreme bulging of the base of the case that caused the ejector to break).

I have personally seen one person (thank GOD he didn't buy it from us) at a local range, get severely injured in the groin after his Model 2A1 Ishapore Enfield had a intense gas-rupture and "let go" when firing it, blowing the loaded magazine under high-pressure out of the rifle and landing between his legs.

This "accident" required major hospitalization and surgery to repair his grievious and painful injury. This guy was so CLEVER that even after the extractor broke-off of his Ishapore Model 2A1 rifle (hello. . . serious WARNING SIGN there. . . ) he continued to shoot it at the range while simply knocking out the empty case after every shot by running a cleaning-rod down the barrel rather than attempt to purchase another extractor!

Little wonder that his wife forbid him from owning even a single firearm after that experience (we ended up buying every gun he owned or will ever own from her).

Nahhh. . . we won't find or sell you one of these rifles. . . we like you too much!


------------------
Denny Kroh, owner, EMPIRE ARMS
email: kroh@empirearms.com
website: http://www.empirearms.com

grammaton76
07-14-2006, 4:58 PM
A few problems exist with these...

1.) They have 12 round mags which aren't legal to import.

2.) They're not safe to fire .308 commercial ammo in (even in small doses). And, they are likely at the edge of what's safe for 7.62 Nato. I had a long talk with Dennis Kroh about this (owner of Empire Arms, definetly knows his stuff and is a straight shooter).

So, what you're saying is, that this is the only rifle in the world which PREFERS the under-powered Indian surplus ammo? :)

Kestryll
07-14-2006, 10:15 PM
Read this, it debunks a fair bit of the myth about Ishapore Enfields.
http://www.surplusrifle.com/shooting/oddshot2/index.asp

TonyNorCal
07-14-2006, 10:24 PM
I'll go with Dennis Kroh's expertise over the guy at Surplus Rifle....but shoot as you will...it's your life and limb.

ivanimal
07-14-2006, 10:52 PM
I own an Ishipore Enfield. It is the same feel as my 303 made in Australia. The only difference is the baked enamel finish. You have to be really careful as to what you use as a cleaner. The good thing is that you dont have to worry about using corrosive ammo if you buy modern NATO ammo. I paid 300 for mine at a gun show in the 90's. I have not taken it out in years as it sits in my moms safe in SF. I say buy it or regret it.:cool:

Pthfndr
07-15-2006, 6:29 PM
I'll go with Dennis Kroh's expertise over the guy at Surplus Rifle

Why do you believe one to be more credible than the other?

JPglee1
07-15-2006, 6:37 PM
So, what you're saying is, that this is the only rifle in the world which PREFERS the under-powered Indian surplus ammo? :)


Or WOLF with its massive 2400FPS haha


J

Boomer1961
07-16-2006, 1:22 AM
Why do you believe one to be more credible than the other?

Because the dang thing shot back and almost killed the fella. Did you read the feedback. Either true or not, just the risk is to great to take the chance.

This is Indian, and they have never really gotten on track with their military industrial capability.

They are hindered by the usual massive corruption seen in third world nations, the cottage industry type of production where standards of excellence are hit or miss, plus their military by circumstance has a much lower standard for acceptance, and so on and so on.

Remember these are the same folks where their air force pilots die by the scores each year in accidents, where they are far more are killed by these accidents than in all the wars including the war of independence. In 2003 alone they had nearly 100 crashes. Their MIG 21 pilots have mutinied on several occasions because they did not wish to die during training. More than half their MIG 21 series aircraft have been lost in accidents (thats hundreds and hundreds) and they are usually fatal. Their aeronautic industry just does not have the capability to perform the maintenance or manufacture spare parts or the ability to produce a better aircraft. The MIG 21 losses can be compared to the US thunderchief losses during the Vietnam War where over half the aircraft of this type that were produced were shot down, except no one is shooting at the Indian MIG's when they burst into flames in mid air. This has been considered an acceptable risk by India in order to have a high performance jet fighter plane, Do you doubt they would not do the same for a locally made rifle for the police for the lower caste.

The same goes for their small arms, their military vehicles, their missiles and planes also having a similar history to the MIG's.

I just hope with McDonald's doing a trial Beta testing of having these folks in India taking our drive through order and typing it on their computer and having it go on through the INTERNET to go on the TelePrompTer for the illegal Mexican Cook and underage high school drop out cashier does not get screwed up like the Indian Military Industrial Complex does with the stuff they make for the Indian Military.

I read in the paper that the McDonald's in Brentwood CA is one of these McDonald's where you will be talking to a fella in India to take your order. Funny thing is their English will probably be better than the illegal Mexican who took your order before......the world just keeps getting smaller and smaller.


Now then....
The ad says....
"...Their engineers made design enhancements to the No1Mk3 Enfield by utilizing superior 1960's technology in steel manufacturing and tooling when compared with the turn of the century processes used to make the .303cal. Enfields. ......"

Funny thing is India has never been known, especially back in the 1960's, for superior steel manufacture and tooling. We know that was the Japanese and Germans since WWII that have made these great strides in steel manufacture (and maybe a few others like Russia). India has become knowns for cheap inexpensive recycled steel now a days but back then.....they were not even known for that. No doubt inferior steels may well have been used on weapons made for their military, and possibly includes at least some of these firearms.

Now the same folks that buy a cheap and dangerous surplus weapon to have for a every day shooter are the same folks that buy a VULCAN attempted replica firearm. Maybe that VULCAN owner is Indian (ooops! I should not insult the Indians by saying such a thing as associating them with VULCAN. I am sure ALL the firearms made in India are of better quality than a VULCAN).

The add also says...
".... They were shot little and ...."

Well most military surplus arms run the gamut from new, to arsenal reworks, to great condition, to shooter grade. I think it telling that you do not see any of these in shooter grade, maybe because they never lasted that long. Maybe before they make it to shooter grade they blow up or just fall apart. Maybe they were under orders to not shoot this thing unless they absolutely had to and the risk of not shooting was greater than the risk of shooting.

Now to own a piece of historical importance, a nice conversation piece, a little piece of India, or for the few who are true shooting enthusiast and understand how to safely shoot such a weapon (having the time, patience, training, and money to buy/load appropriate cartridges) I can understand. Lord knows I have several such firearms that I can not go out and shoot day after day and would be risking my life to do so. Sometimes owning a dangerous weapon like that Japanese WWII pistol that goes off when you bump the side of the safety while holstering it is 90% the fun of owning such a weapon just to be able to show it off and complain about it.

This one may well be worth buying just because of the controversy and the heated discussions that it can generate and also seeing how many folks step back a hundred feet when you shoot it at the range versus how many folks saying "I am not afraid, let me shoot it, all that INTERNET yakking about this is just a bunch of hogwash...." It will surely get the tongues of many wagging at the range.

There is nothing wrong by going with the reputation or folk lore about a firearm. You are playing with your life and is it really worth a $169 rifle just because you have an itch to own it due to the nice looking ad and great price. If so I have a Ford Pinto with a full tank of gas to sell ya.
:eek:

I would not be surprised by the way the Indian arms industry is that some of these maybe great shooters while others have a multitude of problems like that head spacing deal as they do not have the system controls in their manufacturing processes that we have in the West. They have come a long ways in the last two decades but back in the 1960's I know they had their problems.

If you want an every day cheap shooter, pass on this one as there are too many other fine inexpensive firearms out there.

If you do purchase this then keep us up to date and document the head spacing carefully and don't forget to duck when you shoot it, also it may pay to put a bullet proof vest over your crotch if you plan to make more babies or at least enjoy practicing making them with the wife.

Well my fingers ran away tonight, sorry for the long post. I should have never taken typing in high school.

TAKE CARE EVERYONE!

Pthfndr
07-16-2006, 8:50 AM
Because the dang thing shot back and almost killed the fella. Did you read the feedback. Either true or not, just the risk is to great to take the chance.

-snip-

Well my fingers ran away tonight, sorry for the long post. I should have never taken typing in high school.

TAKE CARE EVERYONE!

Dang guy, a lot of writing and you didn't answer my question. Ted Duncan is a regular contributor to SurplusRifles.com. He also says he spoke with Ian Skinnerton, who is a known authority on Enfields, and who said he had no personal knowledge of any catastrophic failures of the Ishapur rifles.

Any surplus rifle should be properly inspected before being fired. No matter where it comes from.

ivanimal
07-16-2006, 3:14 PM
I put a few hundred rounds through mine a total of six times, the funy thing is these rifles shoot best when dirty. I was gettin 5-6 inch groups at 100 yards with a few really obvious fliers. Once a few rounds went through, 100 or so I would clean it. The groups had shrunk to about 3-4 inches and fewer fliers by then. Once cleaned they would open up again. Dont quote me on group size as I was usually shooting 3 or 4 different milsurps on the same day but I am sure of the groups getting smaller. No other rifle with the exception of the Carcano ever did that for me.

STAGE 2
07-22-2006, 5:59 PM
I'm confused, after the numerous articles that have been posted on the differences between .308 and 7.62, why would someone who is an expert on firearms go ahead and shoot .308 through a gun that it wasn't designed for?

For the record, there are several gents who are quite knowledgable on some of the other firearms boards who are picking these things up 2 or 3 at a time. Quite odd if they are as dangerous as stated.

lpspinner
07-28-2006, 9:10 AM
I'll go with Dennis Kroh's expertise over the guy at Surplus Rifle....but shoot as you will...it's your life and limb.

First off, my OWN personal opinion of him is very low. Something about him rubs me the wrong way and when the Russian Captured K98's first appeared I read one of his post offering his "selection" for sale. He came across as arrogant and that his stuff that comes from his behind don't stink.

Now in his defense he did post and apologized. He didn't think his ad was that arrogant. Apparently I wasn't the only one to think so. iirc, this was on Gunsnet a long while back. Ever since then, his opinions are his.

Now back to the Enfield. My buddy has one and we've gone for extensive range sessions with it. The rifle is still intact. In fact I think we were shooting South African Surplus back then.

I now own a beater on that someone tried to convert to a jungle carbine, so once I get the barrel recrowned, I'll be shooting that.

Seriously, if they were really bad, do you think guys like AIM, Interordnance, Century would still be in business? With this sue happy culture of ours, if one exploded, you or your family would be suing them. And if they were all bad... you can multiply this.

footdoc
07-28-2006, 9:24 PM
I got a 2A1 earlier this year, and I have been shooting SA .308 through it for the last six months without any issue. It is an accurate rifle with silky smooth action.

screech
12-08-2006, 6:26 AM
I'll go with Dennis Kroh's expertise over the guy at Surplus Rifle....but shoot as you will...it's your life and limb.

I have delt with Dennis Kroh in the past. From my experience he is a liar. He over rates his guns condition and when a problem arrises you will certainly get into a heated argument.
He is in the same class as Tom Forrest and David B.
Just my experience. I call his overpriced junk "junk" and his discriptions "lies".
If he was selling these 308 Enfield 2A's, they would be the greatest thing out there!

JesseXXX
12-08-2006, 10:34 AM
What about .303 No 4 .... specifically the U.S. Property ones....? I got 2 of them....:confused: I haven't fired them yet...

I did have a Brit .303 that the casing basically "welded" itself into the chamber... I had to slam the bolt up and back to extract... the casing looked "wiedl" as if the metal was "pulled" with force.... The gunsmith told me the head-space was blowm-gone... the rifle was returned to Big 5... no questions asked....

TonyNorCal
12-08-2006, 3:47 PM
Well, sorry some of you have had bad experiences with Dennis. I've had the opposite, but obviously people have different experiences.

I'n purchased about 5 rifles from him (all through the 'new stuff' list) and have been pleased.

I know a number of serious (far more serious and knowledgeable than me) collectors over on gunboards think highly of him.

I've also found him to be very helpful on the phone and more than once I've spent a good half hour or so just asking him question about various milsurps...many were noobish questions...and he was patient and helpful and I didn't buy anything during those calls...nor was I pressured to.

But, that's just my experience. And, experiences vary...just like they do with gun shops...some like certain shops and some have bad experiences there.

saki302
12-08-2006, 3:59 PM
If the indian enfields were that dangerous, they would be pulled, and you'd hear a lot more about failures. So far, no one has produced an example of a blown Enfield 7.62, or one damaged from firing that I know of. I'd love to examine photos of one.

I have one which is one of the cleanest I've ever seen- the baked finish might be new, as it looks fabulous! I think they are parkerized underneath.

-Dave

whatever
12-09-2006, 5:06 PM
I've owned two of the 2A rifles. Both can do 2 inches at 100 yards with good ammo. The one I have now is scoped.

The thing about the headspace is some people don't understand that you need to use a FIELD guage to check them. They will undoubtably fail a commercial NO-GO but it doesn't matter.

They have "military" chambers, meaining a bit over-sized to accomodate a variety of ammo types and conditions. Mine will not close on a Field, but just barely. Yet there are no signs of excessive headspace on the fired cartridges.

No backed out primers (even on handloads without crimped primers), no case bulging, no sticky bolt handle, etc.

Buy one or don't. However in my personal experience they are fun and accurate rifles.

griffon
12-10-2006, 2:33 AM
I've got close to 1000 rounds through 3 of them, including a gibbs jungle carbine that I loved, and have had no problems with any of them. The comments first posted here seem to be completely at odds with what I've seen and heard on forums. In 10 years I haven't seen one situation reported about an exploding 308, and in fact there are good sources of info on nato versus winchester and chamber pressures, and also the steel type.
I just bought one a few weeks ago and want two more, reason? you can't buy 303 these days without spending gold, and nato ammo is all over for cheap, it shoots good too, also, the guns shoot good and the price is right.
Look for the price on 308s to continue climbing, two years ago they could be had almost anywhere for $100, now $150 is a very cheap price in Los Angeles, and over on our classifieds there's one for $300, that sort of price is becoming typical.

Got 308's anybody?

Michael303
12-10-2006, 8:27 AM
I have an Ishapor 2A1 and have shot hundreds of rounds with no problems or headspace issues. The 2A1 and L39A1 came in real handy when I couldn’t find enough .303 to feed my other Enfields. As for head space issues, I’ve checked mine before and after and have found no excessive issues.

With milsurps, there seems to be a large “that gun is junk” mentality, especially when you are faced with people who genuinely believe that spending more money equates to a better firearm. Granted, Ishapor (formerly Rifle Factory India) is on the Subcontentent, but that doesn’t mean they weren’t using tools to ensure proper fit and assembly.

Until I see a legitimate gripe or warning about this particular batch (not just a derogatory rant about how bad cheap rifles are) I’d say grab one, check to ensure headspace, and then shoot it until you get tired.

griffon
12-10-2006, 8:54 PM
here's a reference'; I hope.

http://www3.sympatico.ca/shooters/7_62vs308.htm

gose
12-10-2006, 10:58 PM
Won one today, so I guess I'll find out soon if there are any issues :)

tteng
12-11-2006, 11:01 AM
I bought one from AIMS (comes w/ 10rd mag for Calif.customer) about 6mo ago. Shot it w/ 7.62mm South African surplus (about 40rd), action smooth and flawless. However, the grouping was poor, 4-6" at 50yrd.
After dissembly, I found the action bedding (the wood underneath the action) was half-rotted and spongy. I did some woodwork (clean/file/sand/JBweld) to repair the bedding, but have not shot it since because of other rifle interest.
BTW, it is not C&R, so FFL1 is required.

Michael303
12-12-2006, 10:38 AM
Tteng-

You'll also want to make sure the fore end stud and spring are in place. I've bought a few No1 MkIII's and 2A1's where somebody had removed that piece. It’s easy to lose, and easy to replace. Most importantly, its absence will make for a pretty poor grouping.

saki302
12-12-2006, 12:20 PM
The new ones I've seen are in much worse condition than the older imports- mostly as far as the wood and bore goes.

What does the 10rd mag look like, is it a modified 12?

-Dave

tteng
12-12-2006, 1:22 PM
The 10-rd mag is aftermarket, looks like the 12-rd mag. It feeds fine.

gazzavc
03-10-2007, 10:20 PM
Tell you what they are good for though.

Reenactors.

We love 'em. Cheap .308 Austrian or British blanks, makes it economical for the reenactor on a budget. You can buy a case of 2000 blanks for less than $70 delivered. That's .03c per round. With the equivalent .303 blanks costing over .35c a round its a no brainer.

Cheers

Gaz

wheelgunner
03-11-2007, 9:44 AM
The new ones I've seen are in much worse condition than the older imports- mostly as far as the wood and bore goes.

What does the 10rd mag look like, is it a modified 12?

-Dave

Is that for all of the grades that AIM offers?

dfletcher
03-11-2007, 6:52 PM
My Ishapore does not have the baked enamel finish, it has a blued finish & at about 85% I think it looks best. Excessive headspace is I think a result of the Enfields using rear rather than front locking lugs, I don't think it is the result of too powerful a cartridge.

Saying that the Ishapores have a "generous" chamber dimension is putting it mildly though.

With respect to being "over 50 years old" I presume this is a reference to whether or not the Ishapores are C & R eligible. They are listed as C & R eligible in their original military condition.

BHP FAN
02-27-2009, 12:52 AM
My Gibbs 2A Carbine handles .308 handloads or 7.62 NATO just fine,but the mag is crap,as was the 5 rounder from promag.Anybody know where to find a decent magazine for the Ishies?

Gryff
02-27-2009, 2:35 AM
Cool...zombie thread. Back from the dead. Feed it some brains (Where's Iggy?) and let's see how long it lives for!

big50_1
02-27-2009, 8:34 AM
Got a Enfield 2A 7.62 Nato years ago because I somehow wound up with a lot of 7.62 Nato ammo and had no gun in that caliber. I read up and found out that the steel of the receiver and bolt was different than the .303 versions. BUT looking at mine, the look of the receiver steel and the bolt were very different from each other.

I didn't feel comfortable with firing the gun and sold the Enfield without firing the piece. In retrospect, just because a gun is cheap and affordable doesn't make it safe. Who knows, maybe I slid by getting a bolt stuck in my forehead (or not)!

M1A Rifleman
02-27-2009, 9:33 AM
[QUOTE=This is Indian, and they have never really gotten on track with their military industrial capability.
[/QUOTE]

Makes sense to me as a reason to stay away, which is why I don't shoot Indian or Pakistani ammo, including Wolf.

There was an NRA warning regarding the safety of British Enfields back in the 70's/80's due to several barrel failures documented with GI ammo. These were standard unmodified rifles. Failures were do to 40-yearold arms being warn out.

I would not trust or shoot a reworked/caliber conversion Enfield or any other firearm from that part of the world.

But, for those who disagree, enjoy your choice, you won't need to worry about me buying out the stock of Indian made weapons or ammo.

gtmmark
02-27-2009, 9:48 AM
I also have a 2A and have run at least a thousand rounds through it with no headspace issues, I have gauges and check all my shooters regularly. As far as Dennis Kroh the guy is an arrogant ***** call his shop and see for yourself.

eighteenninetytwo
02-27-2009, 12:37 PM
Couple of Points as have a few of these and several more Enfields. I know several people who have shot lots and lots of .308 through these rifles without an issue. There are lots of myths about these things and it would really help to check with peopel who know Enfields before making judgements.

Headspace - These are military rifles and the action was designed in the late 1890's. They were designed to be dropped in a trench and dragged across teh desert and still fire afterwards, so the chambers by modern standards are sloppy. Do as the guy Above said - use a military field gauge NOT modern commerical gauge. Even if it's failing that use discretion, but Enfields do have two significant size holes in the chamber for gas exchaust in case of head separation.

Also someone made a lovely little comment about india and their industrial quality. Possibly a fair point in general, but the factories that made the Enfield No.1 MkIII and then the 2A1 in india were set up and run by the British and even after Indian independence were still run to the same standards as the british armouries, same checks, same proof marks and same metallurgy. Where the difference is, is in how rifles are treated after they get out of the factory.

I found that mine were very accurate - no problems with having fired corrosive ammo, and as it's easier to get quality 7.62 than .303, they tend to open a few eyes at the range when the guy next to you with scoped M16alike is getting bigger groups than something which looks like it was out of date in the First world war

smle-man
02-27-2009, 1:27 PM
Makes sense to me as a reason to stay away, which is why I don't shoot Indian or Pakistani ammo, including Wolf.

There was an NRA warning regarding the safety of British Enfields back in the 70's/80's due to several barrel failures documented with GI ammo. These were standard unmodified rifles. Failures were do to 40-yearold arms being warn out.

I would not trust or shoot a reworked/caliber conversion Enfield or any other firearm from that part of the world.

But, for those who disagree, enjoy your choice, you won't need to worry about me buying out the stock of Indian made weapons or ammo.

The warning you refer to was in #4 rifles for barrels that had craze-cracking in the throats from untold quantities of rounds fired through them. There were 2 rifles that failed in the hands of cadet forces in GB, rather than inspect all of the rifles they simply pulled them from service. The condition was caused by extensive use of cordite ammunition. For the sake of this discussion no 7.62 NATO or 7.62x51 has been loaded with cordite so this particular problem can't occur in a 2A/1. It makes sense to have any rifle that is old and well used inspected for safe shooting prior to using it.

eighteenninetytwo
02-27-2009, 3:40 PM
Actually one further point ot make is that these are NOT REWORKED RIFLES. The metallurgy is different from the No.1 Mk3 which was firing .303 british and these rifles are tested for teh 7.62 x 51 mm round.

smle-man
02-27-2009, 7:27 PM
http://www.jouster.com/cgi-bin/fal/fal.pl?read=5087

Some of the folks on this forum are still serving Commonwealth armorers who have experience with the Lee Enfield and 2A series. Worth reading this discussion about the 2As. I learned something.

Farquaad
02-27-2009, 8:33 PM
I do not have a 2a but everything I have ever heard is that they are great rifles. I own several Ishapore .303 both post independence examples and they are fine quality, on par with the English and Australian examples I own. The failure described earlier is almost (if not completely) impossible in any Enfield design. The receiver is designed to handle a case failure. Headspace will probably fail a no go gauge, use a field gauge, it is what they are designed for.

Even if a rifle failed I would wager that every rifle ever built has had a catastrophic failure at some point for some reason. M-1, M-1a, AR-15s, you name it it has or will fail. One rifle can not be used to judge the type of firearm.

Whoever this Empire Arms guy is selling everyone a bill of goods, I really believe his Enfield story is a load of crap, and second after checking out his website anyone who buys anything from that guy got sold a bill of goods too. Everything there is overpriced by a factor of at least 2. What a rip off.

joea
02-27-2009, 9:04 PM
My Gibbs 2A Carbine handles .308 handloads or 7.62 NATO just fine,but the mag is crap,as was the 5 rounder from promag.
Anybody know where to find a decent magazine for the Ishies?
Here ya go...
http://www.e-gunparts.com/DisplayAd.asp?chrProductSKU=376330&chrSuperS

BHP FAN
02-28-2009, 1:02 AM
Thanks guys.I got one of the 5 rounders from Promag ,and the first time I loaded it the top round kept popping out like a jack-in-the-box.The last round slipped half under the bolt and was bent into an ''L''. The stock mag ,a twelve rounder,normally loaded with ten rounds [with two five round strippers] works pretty well in the Ishi's,but the Importer switched to ten round after-market Promags,and in so doing,they changed the normally dependable work horse Enfield into a tempermental jammo-matic.

big50_1
02-28-2009, 8:32 AM
BHP FAN-Take a heavy pair of pliers/vise and play-around-with/tweek the feed lips of the mag to get it right. That means supporting the top round so it feeds directly into the chamber. I've done that with some aftermarket mags that are problemental.

Are you really a fan of the BHP? Had two and a Charles Daly (very nice gun for the price), what are your thoughts about them?

dfletcher
02-28-2009, 9:35 AM
Brownells sells a mag lip tool for about $5.00 - basically a screwdriver with a round shank, a slit in the side. The thing works so damn good, it's saved a few mags from being launched downrange by me, including the SMLE replacement mags. They can be made to work, but I had to fiddle with mine to get them to seat in the gun and feed.

gazzavc
02-28-2009, 6:15 PM
A pair of needle nose pliers will do the same thing just perfectly. If I remember correctly the right lip needs to higher than the left.....

G-Man WC
02-28-2009, 7:29 PM
I call B.S. I've fired thousands of 308win and 7.62x51 in my 2a purchased 15 years ago. I've never had a stuck bolt or had any sign of high pressure on fired brass. Use a go-no-go guage and check yourself first. I'm suggesting safety first and know what your shooting. Any Milsup should be checked out before firing. Thanks for the link to the mag

BHP FAN
03-01-2009, 3:00 PM
BHP FAN-Take a heavy pair of pliers/vise and play-around-with/tweek the feed lips of the mag to get it right. That means supporting the top round so it feeds directly into the chamber. I've done that with some aftermarket mags that are problemental.

Are you really a fan of the BHP? Had two and a Charles Daly (very nice gun for the price), what are your thoughts about them?

Yes I'm a huge fan of Browning,his firearms,and their derivatives.I have three 9mm BHP's.Argentine milsurp,1980's Utah address,WWII MKI* Canadian .Two Ballester Molinas,a Armada and a Policia.Gave my son my 1913 Colt last year,for his 21st.Replaced it with a nice new RIA G.I. .45 .I've got a Tokarev I converted to 9mm back when 7.62 x 25 was hard to find.I've got other guns,mostly old milsurp,and BP,but the Brownings and Browning derivatives are my favorites.

BHP FAN
03-01-2009, 3:21 PM
I call B.S. I've fired thousands of 308win and 7.62x51 in my 2a purchased 15 years ago. I've never had a stuck bolt or had any sign of high pressure on fired brass. Use a go-no-go guage and check yourself first. I'm suggesting safety first and know what your shooting. Any Milsup should be checked out before firing. Thanks for the link to the mag
I've got about thirty guns,mostly old milsurp.Two are Enfields.They feed great,but this 2a just pisses me off.I'm sure the stock military units work fine,but this is a Gibbs rework.I think the problem is the aftermarket mag,not the gun.

BillCA
03-01-2009, 4:48 PM
I picked up an Ishy 2A in the late 90's that was in good shape and it's one of those that Navy Arms converted to a jungle carbine format. It is by no means a tack driver with the original Enfield military sights but it will hit a silhoutte target at 200m (disclaimer: my old eyes aren't the best and the crude sights don't help me much).

For those who put down the Indian manufacturing, it may be true for many products, but their arms industry used the Enfield production machines and high quality steel for re-arming their army. No shortcuts.

I've put at least 300 rds downrange with the Ishy and no signs of any problems. It's a fine rifle but it kicks hard. But I did find out by accident it is a natural pointer from the hip. I hit a soda can at 20 yards 8/10 times out in the boonies to get rid of some milsurp ammo. Quite surprising.

BHP FAN
03-01-2009, 5:28 PM
I don't doubt the carbine itself is well made,I wouldn't have bought it otherwise.That darn magazine is a steaming pile of...something,though.One of the fellas here mentioned a Brownell's maglips tool though,and I'm getting one of those for sure. I can always use tools,being an AGA member,and shade tree gunsmith. failing that,another member here posted a link to Gunpartsco,who I've been doing buisness with since they were Numrich Arms the first time...but I used his link,and the original,NOT aftermarket mags are in stock again.If I can't make my mag work,that's next. As far as the sights go,I ordered Mojo's because the STOUT recoil of the little Gibbs Carbine caused the stock sight to flip up each shot.So I ordered the Mojo,and a fresh spring...same thing.Sooo....I ordered a B-Square Scout mount,and a pistol scope,and a Harris bi-pod.I haven't given up on this project yet,but it HAS caused me to use some 'colorfull' sailor language.Worst case scenario,you'll see a tricked out Enfield at our next gunshow.

dfletcher
03-01-2009, 5:46 PM
I don't doubt the carbine itself is well made,I wouldn't have bought it otherwise.That darn magazine is a steaming pile of...something,though.One of the fellas here mentioned a Brownell's maglips tool though,and I'm getting one of those for sure. I can always use tools,being an AGA member,and shade tree gunsmith. failing that,another member here posted a link to Gunpartsco,who I've been doing buisness with since they were Numrich Arms the first time...but I used his link,and the original,NOT aftermarket mags are in stock again.If I can't make my mag work,that's next. As far as the sights go,I ordered Mojo's because the STOUT recoil of the little Gibbs Carbine caused the stock sight to flip up each shot.So I ordered the Mojo,and a fresh spring...same thing.Sooo....I ordered a B-Square Scout mount,and a pistol scope,and a Harris bi-pod.I haven't given up on this project yet,but it HAS caused me to use some 'colorfull' sailor language.Worst case scenario,you'll see a tricked out Enfield at our next gunshow.


Just FYI, on the aftermarket mags I bought from Numrich I had to fit the mag just to get the thing to stay seated. I usually don't bother using the aftermarket ones, I'll probably but originals.

BHP FAN
03-01-2009, 6:49 PM
Same here.Given a choice between original and aftermarket,I'm pretty sure which way I'll jump.

EVILFORCE
03-01-2009, 9:10 PM
I have one I bought in 1999. I have 4-5 thousand rounds thru it. It is one of my favorite rifles. I do only shoot nato or Indian ammo thru it. The Indian is a soft shooting ammo for sure. If I remember right it is cordite loaded. Dont hold me to that.

big50_1
03-01-2009, 9:28 PM
BHP FAN-Had a FNUSA Mk III, a Browning .40 S&W and a Chas. Daly HP clone. Nice guns but... Grip was O.K., trigger was O.K. but narrow, very heavy. Always felt uncomfortable in my hand/felt like I was shooting a chunk of steel not a gun. Had a "no nonsense, workmen-like" feel about them. Just my opinion.

The FN/Browning were very accurate but the Chas. Daly was surprisingly accurate for its cost. They always worked. Very reliable, more reliable than any other 9mm I've had except a Glock 17. Now THAT ONE always goes bang.

On the other hand, I love the 1911 format. Had several over the years. Just have a .45 ACP and a 9mm Springfield at this time. The 9mm Springfield is getting used more and more as I get older. Easier on the wrists. The full-size 1911 was designed for .45 ACP/.38 Super so full-sized format is heavier in 9mm than in .45 ACP. A good thing for a range gun. Lots of shootin'.

BHP FAN
03-01-2009, 9:35 PM
Evilforce,I have fired Australian 7.62 and handloaded .308 through my Gibbs so far.
Big 50..my Favorites are my BHP's of course,but RIA's G.I. .45 is a great gun,and cost me less than $400.!

big50_1
03-01-2009, 9:50 PM
My experiences with 1911s is funny. They can be super accurate and work reliably or super loose and work reliably. But when they don't work they can be a bear to figure out. I have mine set up very basic, no extras except a trigger job, a full-length recoil guide for a little extra weight up front and some skate board tape on the front of the grip. They have to go bang every time or I fix or get rid of them.

BHP FAN
03-02-2009, 8:51 AM
The only thing I did to my Rock Island Armory G.I. was to ditch the pretty [but useless] smooth Phillipine mahogony grips and replace them with checkered wood grips,from [IIRC] SARCO.On my Ballesters I was lucky enough to find Policia grips of the finger groove Houge style.Muy cool.I got Houges for my Argy and my Utah BHP's, but I am of course, leaving the Canadian MKI* strictly alone.

big50_1
03-02-2009, 10:23 AM
The Chas. Daly HP clone came with Uncle Mikes rubber BHP grips. Excellent grips. They fit the Daly but not true FN/Browning BHPs. They had a rounded, palm-filling contour like Craig Speigel's grips. Hogues were pretty good but strangely enough CDNN had cheap grips (I think Sile grips which are nice but not top tier grips) that felt great in the hand.

BHP FAN
03-02-2009, 3:09 PM
I've got a set of Pachmeyers I took off the 80's Utah addy BHP when I got it.I have largish hands,but short stubby fingers, so the Pac's,though good grips,leave me feeling like I don't have a good 'weld' to the gun. The Houge's with the finger grips,and slender profile put the BHP's right where I want 'em.

haodoken
03-02-2009, 4:14 PM
Yieeeeeeee! Thread jack! :threadjacked: Hogue grips on a Enfield 2A? J/K.

BHP FAN
03-02-2009, 4:52 PM
ok,you're right,but what the hey,my Gibbs is nickled and 'pimped' already...it might look good!

rocketrod
03-02-2009, 8:56 PM
All the above said, I'ce shot my old Brit Enfields a lot in .303 (I assume you want to get away from that overpriced round, tho I shoot a lot of Prvi), with nothing but great results. Heck, I fire my old Martini-Henry's with 450-577 and THEY hold together.

It may not be a fair comparison, but I see Indian workmanship everytime I go to Harbot Freight Tools... which is precisely why I have never risked an Ishapore.

Can't find anything much sweeter than a real Jungle rifle, IMHO...

Good luck whatever you do!

BHP FAN
03-03-2009, 7:25 AM
I have a sweet 1918 MKIII,and a battered no.4 that still has unit numbers painted on the stock.Both shoot .303 just fine.I have a hundred reloadable brass, loaded up with 180 grain gas checked hard cast bullets,and about four hundred mixed milsurp Berdan primed.I like the .303 a lot,but I was hopeing to have the best of both worlds ,a dependable Enfield,and to add .308 to my stable.I guess there's no such thing as a free lunch...

smle-man
03-03-2009, 7:41 AM
The 2A will do just fine. Like any well used surplus arm, it should be checked for safe use and may need some adjustments for full functioning. I've owned three and all were great shooters. I have one now and it is great. I also have 3 #4s in 7.62mm and they are even more accurate. Probably less flex in the receiver.

BHP FAN
03-03-2009, 8:18 PM
What mags are you useing?

BHP FAN
03-03-2009, 8:43 PM
I ordered the one from Gunpartsco.

BHP FAN
03-06-2009, 2:00 AM
I got the B-Square Scout Mount,and the pistol scope from Sportsman's Guide.what a great looking set up.Rock solid,too.

G-Man WC
03-06-2009, 6:32 PM
BHP, Where's the pics at? :toetap05:

BHP FAN
03-08-2009, 5:25 PM
http://i40.tinypic.com/amsdy.jpg
I'll get my son to take a picture with the scout scope on it....

smle-man
03-08-2009, 6:11 PM
I like the Gibbs modification of the 2A. Here are some pics of my Lee Enfield 7.62 rifles

http://i238.photobucket.com/albums/ff237/smle-man/P7150008.jpg
Maltby 1942 with a Canadian Long Branch/CAL 7.62mm barrel and AJ Parker 8/53 rear sight

http://i238.photobucket.com/albums/ff237/smle-man/4m12762-2.jpg

#4mk1/2 with an AJ Parker barrel, AJ Parker Matchmaker front sight and AJ Parker Twin Zero rear sight

http://i238.photobucket.com/albums/ff237/smle-man/4mk2762.jpg

Fazakerly #4mk2 with a Canadian DCRA 7.62mm barrel and AJ Parker 8/53 rear sight

http://i238.photobucket.com/albums/ff237/smle-man/2a1.jpg

Ishapore 2A1

BHP FAN
03-08-2009, 8:15 PM
Oh...my...GAWD! Enfield heaven!

bowfin
03-09-2009, 1:23 PM
We need to get these Australian guys off the dime and help them find an importer/distributor in the U.S. of A.:

http://www.australianinternationalarms.com.au/product.htm

smle-man
03-09-2009, 2:53 PM
Can't be brought in, they are made in Vietnam and prohibited from importation. Marstar in Canada has them. Tristar brought less than 100 of the 7.62x39 versions into the U.S. but no more.

ImOverHere
03-09-2009, 9:09 PM
I don't want to hijack the thread or anything, but it looks like "anything Enfield" goes, so....

I own 4-5 Enfields and am considering selling some vs. keeping all. (What can I say? I like 'em.)

Anyway, what are your thoughts on that black paint slathered all over the Ishapores? I've been debating taking it off - somehow - and maybe Parkerizing them. Do you think doing so would affect their "collector" staus (if any)? I don't like Bubba-ing mil-surps, so that's not my intent. I just hate that black paint!

smle-man
03-10-2009, 9:47 AM
You will find that the Ishapores are already parkerized (they called in phosphated) under the layers of paint. If you remove the paint you will have a better looking arm but not historically correct since the paint is the way they were used in India.

dfletcher
03-10-2009, 11:59 AM
I don't want to hijack the thread or anything, but it looks like "anything Enfield" goes, so....

I own 4-5 Enfields and am considering selling some vs. keeping all. (What can I say? I like 'em.)

Anyway, what are your thoughts on that black paint slathered all over the Ishapores? I've been debating taking it off - somehow - and maybe Parkerizing them. Do you think doing so would affect their "collector" staus (if any)? I don't like Bubba-ing mil-surps, so that's not my intent. I just hate that black paint!

I'm thinking we'll be long dead before they hit desired collector status. Maybe in the year 2200 or so someone will pick up your parkerized Ishapore and curse a bit - "I can't believe what someone did to this" wonderful gun.

ilbob
03-10-2009, 1:16 PM
You will find that the Ishapores are already parkerized (they called in phosphated) under the layers of paint. If you remove the paint you will have a better looking arm but not historically correct since the paint is the way they were used in India.

My understanding is the "paint" is actually a preservative used when the rifles were put into storage.

I bought one as a C&R a year or two ago. have not had a chance to shoot it.

ImOverHere
03-10-2009, 6:09 PM
You will find that the Ishapores are already parkerized (they called in phosphated) under the layers of paint. If you remove the paint you will have a better looking arm but not historically correct since the paint is the way they were used in India.

Thanks for your input.

I knew that's how they were used in India, but I wasn't aware they were parkerized underneath, though I figured they had to have some sort finish applied underneath the paint.

ImOverHere
03-10-2009, 6:15 PM
My understanding is the "paint" is actually a preservative used when the rifles were put into storage. I bought one as a C&R a year or two ago. have not had a chance to shoot it.

Ahh...makes sense. Still, it is ugly. :)

I know what you mean. I have four Ishapores and seldom shoot any, which is why I may sell them. But the action is so slick and they shoot pretty well for mil-surps, which is why I was thinking about cleaning off the paint - though I'm not sure how without damaging the finish underneath - and maybe even refinishing the stocks.

smle-man
03-10-2009, 7:55 PM
The paint is a preservative but not for storage, it was for daily use. Consider the rainy and damp conditions in most of India - the paint is a crude but effective rust preventative.

BHP FAN
03-12-2009, 11:16 PM
Well,the mag I got from Gunpartsco looks like it was exploded out the bottom of an overstressed Ishy.Darn thing will not even fit in my Gibbs' mag well.I called Numrich,and they say that was the last one they owned,On the bright side,their excellent customer service gal said to send it back.As always,they stand behind their stuff.I ordered one from David's Collectable Magazines,and while I was at it a Romanian M69 .22LR magazine for my training rifle for about five bucks off of what I've seen them going for elsewhere.

BHP FAN
05-02-2009, 1:34 AM
Sending back the mag.maybe I'll try a five rounder.