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TEX1966
12-10-2010, 6:56 PM
If a person has a C&R license (in California) can he sell a C&R rifle bought on his license to a person in California without a PPT if he logs it in a bound book? I have a freind in the process of getting a 01 FFL and he said only if it is over 100 years old it can it be transfered in California without a PPT. Is he confused with an antique firearm and a C&R or have I lost my mind. I did alot of research on this as I was thinking of getting a C&R and thought If I wanted to upgrade a C&R firearm in my collection I could sell it for what I paid for it and upgrade without a PPT. Any input from the experts from the Calguns.

Thanks for any input, Tex

rromeo
12-10-2010, 7:23 PM
A long gun that is 50 years or older may be transferred private party without an FFL involvement.
An antique firearm is not 100 years old, rather made in 1898 or older. They may be transferred interstate without an FFL.

finloq
12-15-2010, 1:02 PM
I was thinking of getting a C&R and thought If I wanted to upgrade a C&R firearm in my collection I could sell it for what I paid for it and upgrade without a PPT. Any input from the experts from the Calguns.

Thanks for any input, Tex

Not an expert, but...
You do not have to sell your C&R for the same price that you paid for it. The ATF doesn't mind if you make a profit, they just prohibit (with a C&R that is) you running a business. I have sold a couple of rifles (both for a profit), but only to upgrade my collection. Most C&R rifles that you buy will go up in value over time.

ke6guj
12-15-2010, 1:42 PM
If a person has a C&R license (in California) can he sell a C&R rifle bought on his license to a person in California without a PPT if he logs it in a bound book? correct, as long as it is over 50-years old.

I have a freind in the process of getting a 01 FFL and he said only if it is over 100 years old it can it be transfered in California without a PPT.
Is he confused with an antique firearm and a C&R or have I lost my mind.yes, he is getting C&R and antique confused. Antique is anything made before 1899, so that owuld be ~111 years old no FFL needed at all, interstate or not, pistol or long gun.

I did alot of research on this as I was thinking of getting a C&R and thought If I wanted to upgrade a C&R firearm in my collection I could sell it for what I paid for it and upgrade without a PPT. Any input from the experts from the Calguns. you aren't prohibited from making any profit (because any profits made can be used to further your collection), but can't use your 03FFL to run a business.


here is the PC to show your friend:

12078(t)(2) Subdivision (d) and paragraph (1) of subdivision (f) of Section 12072 shall not apply to the infrequent sale, loan, or transfer of a firearm that is not a handgun, which is a curio or relic manufactured at least 50 years prior to the current date, but not including replicas thereof, as defined in Section 478.11 of Title 27 of the Code of Federal Regulations, or its successor.

TEX1966
12-16-2010, 6:30 PM
Thanks for input. I actually have had a C&R since 2007. My friend got me scared on the legality of selling a few and wanted to make sure in my post to protect myself from the DOJ incase I was wrong. He was told that it had to be at least 100 yrs old to be sold without a PPT (by the BATEF). I knew I was right on the 50 yr old issue as I did alot of research on this and other sites. Thanks for all the replies. Now I get to rub it in his face,:D

TRICKSTER
12-16-2010, 6:40 PM
Thanks for input. I actually have had a C&R since 2007. My friend got me scared on the legality of selling a few and wanted to make sure in my post to protect myself from the DOJ incase I was wrong. He was told that it had to be at least 100 yrs old to be sold without a PPT (by the BATEF). I knew I was right on the 50 yr old issue as I did alot of research on this and other sites. Thanks for all the replies. Now I get to rub it in his face,:D
Actually, you are both right. Your friend, as a 01 FFL, can't do a cash and carry on a 50+year old C&R long gun.
You as an 03 FFL or a non FFL can.

OHOD
12-16-2010, 6:43 PM
Thanks for input. I actually have had a C&R since 2007. My friend got me scared on the legality of selling a few and wanted to make sure in my post to protect myself from the DOJ incase I was wrong. He was told that it had to be at least 100 yrs old to be sold without a PPT (by the BATEF). I knew I was right on the 50 yr old issue as I did alot of research on this and other sites. Thanks for all the replies. Now I get to rub it in his face,:D

Good for you, don't rub tooooo hard, he might get acne. :43:

I'm new to C&R and will be learning as much as I can so your post helped me out.
Since I'm a noob at C&R, I get kind of nervous when someone with an FFL01 insists I am wrong.

TRICKSTER
12-16-2010, 6:45 PM
Where does everyone get this "can't make a profit" stuff. There is no requirement for you to keep any records of what you paid for the gun,
so how would anyone even know if you made a profit when you sell it.

Mssr. Eleganté
12-16-2010, 8:42 PM
Where does everyone get this "can't make a profit" stuff.

They probably get it from misunderstanding USC §921(a)(21+22). They see the word "profit" in there a few times and get all confused. That section of the law clearly exempts occasional sales for the enhancement of a collection, so making a profit on such sales is perfectly legal.

M. D. Van Norman
12-17-2010, 7:19 AM
12078(t)(2) Subdivision (d) and paragraph (1) of subdivision (f) of Section 12072 shall not apply to the infrequent sale, loan, or transfer of a firearm that is not a handgun, which is a curio or relic manufactured at least 50 years prior to the current date.…

Quoted with emphasis for reference. This exemption is either much misunderstood or much abused. ;)

TEX1966
12-17-2010, 7:33 PM
Thanks for all the info.

Tex

rjf
12-19-2010, 2:20 PM
01s have to log and DROS everything. 03s need to log all C&R transactions in their book only. CA 03s can sell C&R to non FFL non prohibited CA residents. All handguns need 01 FFL.

Dr.Mauser
12-19-2010, 2:22 PM
I have a question about this, I dont have either my C&R or an FFL, if I want to send a rifle instate how do I do that? And if someone has a C&R in california can they send the rifle right to me so my gun doesnt have to go to jail?

hk91666
12-19-2010, 4:39 PM
I have a question about this, I dont have either my C&R or an FFL, if I want to send a rifle instate how do I do that?

And if someone has a C&R in California can they send the rifle right to me so my gun doesnt have to go to jail?

You can ship instate as long as it goes to an 01 or an 03FFL, plus they have to agree to receive from non licensed person. Some 01 will not do that.

I suppose they could if you send copy of D/L and assure them you can own a gun legally. I have an 03FFL and am wary of that type transaction. Best way is go to gun show and Cash 'n Carry C&R longun.

finloq
12-19-2010, 4:47 PM
Now, how do cash and carry vs. DROS and waiting period rules change at a gun show (having never been to one, myself)?

hk91666
12-19-2010, 5:03 PM
Now, how do cash and carry vs. DROS and waiting period rules change at a gun show (having never been to one, myself)?

"Some" C&R collectors will sell C&R's with just info for their bound book. I have bought both ways an FR8 Cash 'n Carry and a FN-49 through DROS. The FR8 owner was a collector and the FN-49 owner was not licensed. It depends on where the show is and the collector or dealers mood. Also I have seen collectors asking you to sign a statement that you are legally able to possess a weapon. If I was selling at a show I would follow the latter with a form. JMHO

Fin this is what I have seen in NorCal.

finloq
12-19-2010, 5:09 PM
No 10 day?
Rifle?
Pistol?

hk91666
12-19-2010, 5:12 PM
No 10 day?
Rifle?
Pistol?

None on Rifle that is C&R at show

Pistols all C&R or Not go through Dros etc..
You can bypass 10 day jail time if you have C&R license and COE and the more than 1 handgun in 30 days rule

emcon5
12-19-2010, 5:20 PM
None on Rifle that is C&R at showOnly if it is sold by an individual or an 03 FFL. Every gun (save antiques) sold by an 01 FFL must go through DROS and wait.

Cokebottle
12-19-2010, 5:20 PM
"Some" C&R collectors will sell C&R's with just info for their bound book. I have bought both ways an FR8 Cash 'n Carry and a FN-49 through DROS. The FR8 owner was a collector and the FN-49 owner was not licensed. It depends on where the show is and the collector or dealers mood. Also I have seen collectors asking you to sign a statement that you are legally able to possess a weapon. If I was selling at a show I would follow the latter with a form. JMHO

Fin this is what I have seen in NorCal.
+1

A non-licensee has no record keeping requirements, so there is nothing for the ATF to audit, nor any legal requirement that a non-licensee even speak to an ATF agent without a warrant.

The important thing to keep in mind (referring back to a comment from the OP about "buying with the 03FFL)....

You do not use your 03FFL, you are an 03FFL.

Whether you walk into Cinco Grande and buy a C&R and go through the normal DROS (say you saw a used gun that you had to have, but didn't have a copy of your 03/COE with you), or walk in with your 03 and COE and cash and carry, you still must log the transaction in your bound book. This even goes for C&R guns that you purchased prior to getting your license, and sold while you have your license.

The 03FFL, just as the 01FFL, carries more legal responsibility than an unlicensed collector.
An unlicensed collector can cash and carry any C&R long gun via private party sale just on the word of the buyer that he is not a prohibited person.
An 03FFL must log the transaction in his bound book, which means that he must not only believe that the buyer is not a prohibited person, but must also collect and log ID information.
The advantage of the 03FFL is that is allows you to accept interstate shipments of C&R long guns directly to your home with no paperwork going to Sacramento, and it allows you to travel out of state and purchase both C&R long guns and handguns, with the only requirement being that you must register the handguns within 5 days of your return to California. The non-03 cannot do those things.

The 01FFL can travel out of state and purchase ANY firearm, but he cannot sell ANY firearm to a non-FFL via cash and carry. Everything that he sells must be not only be logged out of his bound book, and must go through the 4473/DROS process.


Personally, I would not ship a C&R long gun in-state to a non-licensee, but I would be more than happy to meet them halfway for a face to face sale.

Dr.Mauser
12-19-2010, 5:22 PM
So what can I do with a COE, I cant get my C&R for another year but I believe I can get my COE now.

Mssr. Eleganté
12-19-2010, 5:28 PM
So what can I do with a COE...

On its own, nothing.

Cokebottle
12-19-2010, 5:29 PM
None on Rifle that is C&R at show

Pistols all C&R or Not go through Dros etc..
You can bypass 10 day jail time if you have C&R license and COE and the more than 1 handgun in 30 days rule
Only if it is sold by an individual or an 03 FFL. Every gun (save antiques) sold by an 01 FFL must go through DROS and wait.
Even if the buyer is an 03FFL, the 10 day wait still applies to purchases from an 01FFL unless they also have a COE.
And if they do, then there is no wait even for a handgun (it is still registered).

The only legal paths that do not include the 10 day wait are:

1 - FTF C&R long gun from anyone other than 01FFL.
2 - In-state "hand-to-hand" intrafamilial transfer. Handguns must be declared and registered, but do not need DROS. If the intrafamilial transfer is not a hand-to-hand, then it must be shipped through an 01 and normal FFL transfer fees, DROS, and 10 day wait apply. This also happens to be the only way that a non-01FFL (or LEO?) can obtain a non-C&R without the 10 day wait.
3 - 03FFL with COE, C&R handgun or long gun, purchased from private party or 01FFL.
4 - 03FFL purchasing C&R handgun or long gun out of state (sale subject to the laws of that state) and bringing it home.

Cokebottle
12-19-2010, 5:29 PM
On its own, nothing.
Unless you want to get a job at a gun shop ;)

Dr.Mauser
12-19-2010, 6:35 PM
Unless you want to get a job at a gun shop ;)

that would be a dream job for me right now.