Confused about the flowchart. Help!

[dmendoza1779]

I have trouble understanding the part where it says that if you have pistol grip, forward pistol grip, flash suppressor, collapsable stock that if you answer YES to any of those, that it would still be illegal and violates PC 12276.1 (a)(A-F). Can anyone explain, sorry if this has been said before. I'm new to the forums. :o:confused:


P.S. However, I do understand that you need to have a magazine lock such as a BB and not exceed 10 round capacity.

Thank you

[Reductio]

You can only get there if you already answered that YES to having a detachable magazine. A BB makes the magazine NON-detachable.

Basically if you have the maglock, you can have all those 'features' like grips and flash hiders. If you want to use the normal mag release, then you can't have any of those (aka, 'featureless build')

[saber]

Here is how I explain it:

Detachable magazine + anything fun (pistol grip, etc) is bad.

Magazine needing a tool to release + fun stuff (pistol grip, etc) is okay

Detachable mag and non fun stuff is okay

[dieselpower]

12276.1 (1) is a conditional law. You must first meet the conditions in the first sentence before the second requirements come into play.

the conditional requirements are
1) Semi-automatic
2) Centerfire
3) Rifle (pistols have their own set of laws)
4) Detachable magazine.

once you have all four of those you then look for the other features listed.

If you do NOT have the first 4, the rifle in question can NOT be an AW, even if it has every single one of the other features. You must first have the original 4 to go on.

12276.1. (a) Notwithstanding Section 12276, "assault weapon" shall also mean any of the following:
(1) A semiautomatic, centerfire rifle that has the capacity to accept a detachable magazine and any one of the following:
(A) A pistol grip that protrudes conspicuously beneath the action of the weapon.
(B) A thumbhole stock.
(C) A folding or telescoping stock.
(D) A grenade launcher or flare launcher.
(E) A flash suppressor.
(F) A forward pistol grip.

so a Single action centerfire rifle with detachable magazine can NOT be an AW.

A semi-automatic RIMFIRE rifle with detachable magazine can NOT be an AW.

A semi-automatic centerfire rifle with FIXED magazine can NOT be an AW

So when you take away one of those first 4 requirements, you can then have;
(A) A pistol grip that protrudes conspicuously beneath the action of the weapon.
(B) A thumbhole stock.
(C) A folding or telescoping stock.
(D) A grenade launcher or flare launcher.
(E) A flash suppressor.
(F) A forward pistol grip.

[dmendoza1779]

Thanks for the reply. It's a lot clearer to me now. :cool2:

[papafloyd]

Yes, I undestand it better now. What gets me is why do these features make it evil.....sure may make it a little more comfortable, may help with the flash, folding stock may make it easier to conceal but it really just changes the way it looks more or less, not the way it operates.

[Omega13device]

It has everything to do with looks, misinformation and ignorance, and nothing to do with function.

[dieselpower]

It has everything to do with looks, misinformation and ignorance, and nothing to do with function.

yep...these are AWs

This is an Assault Weaponhttp://i655.photobucket.com/albums/uu272/Wiringguy/800px-Mini14GB.jpg


This is an Assault Weaponhttp://i655.photobucket.com/albums/uu272/Wiringguy/mini14aw2.jpg


One of these is an Assault Weapon..The other is not.
http://i655.photobucket.com/albums/uu272/Wiringguy/mini14aw3.jpg

[J.D.Allen]

Yep, as I remember G.I.'s killed a whole lotta Germans and Japanese with rifles that had no pistol grips:tank:...doesn't make that much difference if you ask me...

[Chunky_lover]

because if it has a barrel shroud, that makes it an assault weapon. thats the way our lawmakers think. Look up shoulder thing that goes up on youtube

[dieselpower]

because if it has a barrel shroud, that makes it an assault weapon. thats the way our lawmakers think. Look up shoulder thing that goes up on youtube

barrel shroud is NY
Black color is NJ
Flash Hider is CA

the reason these hunting ranch rifles are AWs in CA and would require registration is the flash hider.

the second pic the rifle has a thumbhole stock

[Chunky_lover]

guess you didnt look up the video
barrel shroud wasnt my point, its that most of these bs laws they have no idea why it makes sense to ban pistol grips, detachable mag etc. Criminals will always find a way around the law

the idiot in the video thinks a barrel shroud is a folding stock!

[Omega13device]

I've always found this informative for newbies or people who aren't into firearms:

ysf8x477c30

[ke6guj]

You can only get there if you already answered that YES to having a detachable magazine. A BB makes the magazine NON-detachable.


this is not the first time that someone has not understand how a flowchart works. When you answer a question and the answers leads you down a path that bypasses other questions, it is done for a reason. If you don't get asked a question during your travel through the flowchart, that is becuase it doesn't pertain to you based on your answers.

[dieselpower]

Point is I see guys with Mini-14s and slip on Flash hiders all the time and they have no idea they manufactured an AW.

[tomtom7]

Looking to get a AR pistol sometime, would either of the flow charts work for it such as the handgun one since it's a pistol?

Thanks for asking the question dmendoza1779. I was getting a little confused and cross eyed from all the things it asks although it is a great chart. I'm fairly new to firearms and have completed my first AR15. Also thanks dieselpower for the listing of laws as they are.

[dieselpower]

Looking to get a AR pistol sometime, would either of the flow charts work for it such as the handgun one since it's a pistol?

Thanks for asking the question dmendoza1779. I was getting a little confused and cross eyed from all the things it asks although it is a great chart. I'm fairly new to firearms and have completed my first AR15. Also thanks dieselpower for the listing of laws as they are.

AR pistols are a whole nother ocean of knowledge..need to first search the past threads, read read read, then ask another question. This post isnt a place for that.

[tomtom7]

Will do.

[ke6guj]

Looking to get a AR pistol sometime, would either of the flow charts work for it such as the handgun one since it's a pistol?

Thanks for asking the question dmendoza1779. I was getting a little confused and cross eyed from all the things it asks although it is a great chart. I'm fairly new to firearms and have completed my first AR15. Also thanks dieselpower for the listing of laws as they are.

the handgun AW ID flowchart deals with the legality of the pistol as it sits there in front of you (this includes AR pistols). the flowcharts do not deal with how you acquired/made the firearm, so they don't deal with potential 922(r) or roster issues.

[Chunky_lover]

the flow chart is hard to understand for newbies, the non detachable mag is what got me at first. it should be made clearer. once youve been in the game for a while its easy to understand.

[ke6guj]

where the "does it have a detachable magazine" question is, there is a note to look how a detachable magazine is defined.

If it was too hard for you to understand, please write a better explanation to it so that I can update the shotgun and handgun AW charts, and see if Redhorse can update his rifle chart.

Since I wrote the shotgun and handgun charts, it makes perfect sense to me, but I understand the law, so I might be overlooking something that makes sense to me because it expect it to make sense. I need the eye of an noob to show me what is wrong.

[Chunky_lover]

I havent looked at it in a year or more, so I cant remember what it says exactly just that the part about the mag is confusing. I know your not going to change it if I wrote something better so dont ask me to do that. No need to prove anything to me by saying that.
Obviously is hard to figure out as at least once a week someone says I read the flow chart but still have a question.

It needs to go into more explanation, but that would take up more space on the chart. For people that live and breath it everyday its easy to figure out. But for total newbies its still complicated. It needs to have pics I guess of whats correct and incorrect. Maybe that will make it easier.

I will tell you what, im going shooting tomorrow with someone that knows nothing about the laws or weapons. I have that nice color flow chart I bought from you guys at a gun show and will show them and ask if they can explain what it says. Since I will bring a 22lr ar15 that will be the perfect test to tell if it has the evil features. Not knowing its rimfire they should say its illegal then if they can understand it without any help.

[Chunky_lover]

I think it was this for me at least
http://calnra.com/flowchart/gfx/a6n.gif


mostly because it talks about a magazine lock. to me a magazine lock is just that it locks it in. now if you remove it, its no longer locked in. Also fixed magazine to me means non removable
even back in the day I asked if it was alright to keep an open magwell during reloading because that was the confusing part. and ive read recently the same question asked. this was before the flow chart too.

maybe a thread with a pic of some rifles, featureless legal, mag lock legal, and illegal. pics are always nice. this could be something separately printed and sent out. you can have arrows pointing to whats legal and whats not

[ke6guj]

I havent looked at it in a year or more, so I cant remember what it says exactly just that the part about the mag is confusing. I know your not going to change it if I wrote something better so dont ask me to do that. No need to prove anything to me by saying that.
Obviously is hard to figure out as at least once a week someone says I read the flow chart but still have a question.not sure why you don't think I would be unwilling to fix my flowcharts (and mention it to Redhorse to possibly fix his) if someone came up with something better that we could integrate into the chart.

It needs to go into more explanation, but that would take up more space on the chart. For people that live and breath it everyday its easy to figure out. But for total newbies its still complicated. It needs to have pics I guess of whats correct and incorrect. Maybe that will make it easier.and that is an issue, lack of space. The handgun and shotgun charts are already 4 pages, 1 for the flowchart and 3 for the backing info. CGF is planning on redoing the charts, so starting fresh putting the logic to paper may mean that there is more space do do more stuff.


I will tell you what, im going shooting tomorrow with someone that knows nothing about the laws or weapons. I have that nice color flow chart I bought from you guys at a gun show and will show them and ask if they can explain what it says. Since I will bring a 22lr ar15 that will be the perfect test to tell if it has the evil features. Not knowing its rimfire they should say its illegal then if they can understand it without any help.well, if you are using the published rifle flowchart, there'd be a problem since it was never built to deal with rimfire rifles. The last update of the rifle AW chart that Redhorse made has some alterartions that I suggested that make it cover all rifle types, not just semi-automatic centerfire rifles like the "official" chart does. But CGN hasn't updated the hosted flowchart to the latest version.

the latestversion can be seen here, http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showpost.php?p=3648967&postcount=322 ,and it has a rimfire question that would show that the rifle in question is legal. Oncethey get to the rimfire question and say YES, then the flowchart is done. If they don't know if the rifle is a rimfire or not, then they need to determine that before they go past that question.

[ke6guj]

I think it was this for me at least
http://calnra.com/flowchart/gfx/a6n.gif


mostly because it talks about a magazine lock. to me a magazine lock is just that it locks it in. now if you remove it, its no longer locked in. Also fixed magazine to me means non removableok, look at the detachable magazine box on the shotgun and handgun flowcharts to see how obeygiant and I re-worded the defintion to make it somewhat more understandable.

even back in the day I asked if it was alright to keep an open magwell during reloading because that was the confusing part. and ive read recently the same question asked. this was before the flow chart too.
you aren't gonna get a cut-and-dry answer to that. yes, it should be legal to have that mag-locked rifle with an open magwell, but it might draw unwanted LE attention from an LEO that is not completely up to speed on the law.

OK

[Chunky_lover]

the reason I would use a rimfire is 1 im not going to use an illegal rifle. 2 they wont know its rimfire, I just want to see if they would say hey its illegal. Then I would point out its rimfire and its built legally. then ask what would I change if it was centerfire to make legal.

I also looked and I guess I lost that nice color chart, cant find it anywhere. Will just print out the pdf file

Just include color pics like I said earlier with legal versions with arrows showing whats legal, then a illegal version. do a few types of rifles. some have a better time understanding pics. then they could compare to what they see.

[Librarian]

I havent looked at it in a year or more, so I cant remember what it says exactly just that the part about the mag is confusing. I know your not going to change it if I wrote something better so dont ask me to do that. No need to prove anything to me by saying that.
Obviously is hard to figure out as at least once a week someone says I read the flow chart but still have a question.

It needs to go into more explanation, but that would take up more space on the chart. For people that live and breath it everyday its easy to figure out. But for total newbies its still complicated. It needs to have pics I guess of whats correct and incorrect. Maybe that will make it easier.



Yes, using legal definitions for common words that have different common meanings is always confusing.

The one about 'detachable magazines' seems particularly subject to the problem.

In common usage, a detachable magazine is one that comes out of the receiver or mag well, wherever that might be. ''Look," one might say, "comes off, goes back in - detachable!" and that would correct. Even if one installs a 'bullet button' or other magazine locking device, those mags go in and out, no problem.

But that definition, based on the obvious way the magazines and receiver function together, is not the legal definition.

And even though that definition from California Code of Regulations is actually on the flowchart, there is just no good way I can think of to call attention to the special usage.

That confusion is the source of the 'no open mag well' advice; with a locking device, a receiver can no longer accept a 'detachable magazine' in the legal sense - the locking device requires using a tool to remove magazines, so by legal definition, that rifle no longer uses 'detachable magazines'.

No easy solution; it isn't obvious, so those who haven't spent years looking at the stuff do not know there is more than meets the eye.

I don't see how pics would help, though maybe a movie might - Scene 1: show an un-altered receiver, with just the user's finger pressing the mag release; mag comes out, voice over says "this way is legal only for registered 'assault weapons' or for off-list lowers that are 'featureless' - principally no pistol grip."
Scene 2: show installing a 'bullet button'
Scene 3: show the same user and the same magazine; show inserting that mag, but failing to remove it with a finger. Show using some incredible out-size tool to manipulate the bullet button to drop the mag, voice over says "the *magazine* did not change, but the *gun* did - now a tool is required to drop the magazine."

Or some such thing...

[Chunky_lover]

Well no matter what, I hate reading things like I use a magnet to pop out mag when im by myself, or in the desert. Or I put on a forward grip on a pistol things like that. No matter what people will have rifles set up illegally. Thats just the way it is. Some dont know any better, some do. We need to do a thing where we can get every firearm seller in Ca to include a chart with the weapon, and possibly a quick safety thing on it. Like how they do that ridiculous pistol safety demonstration before you walk out the door with it. Just something voluntary with each store. Even a black and white print out of the pdf is good.
I think the more that the chart is out there the better. Just like how most rifles now come with mag locks, have the chart included with them. Some stores just sell them, and dont explain anything to you. Ive seen it personally and experienced myself, but I knew what to do already. How easy would it be for some kid to get home and take the mag lock off because he couldnt figure out how to get the mag out.
One rifle I got had nothing with the mag lock, one had that little install sheet but it was so small im not sure what it even said.

I have seen the chart at P2K and was glad to see it, didnt look to see if you could take a copy home though. So some are making a effort.

[ke6guj]

the reason I would use a rimfire is 1 im not going to use an illegal rifle. 2 they wont know its rimfire, I just want to see if they would say hey its illegal. Then I would point out its rimfire and its built legally. then ask what would I change if it was centerfire to make legal.
right, but if you start with a rimfire rifle and the "official" flowchart, of course they are are gonna think its illegal. that is because the "official" flowchart starts out with the assumption that it is a centerfire rifle, and there is nothing that shows where rimfires are exempt.

If you use the later version that I linked to, you get to the rimfire question and they should detemine if it is rimfire or not before they continue. If a person is willing to answer the question (without really knowing the answer) and procedes to further questions, then I don't know what to say.


Just include color pics like I said earlier with legal versions with arrows showing whats legal, then a illegal version. do a few types of rifles. some have a better time understanding pics. then they could compare to what they see.which would be similar to how the LEA letters that explain why they are legal. But then you would be adding another page or two to each flowchart.

[Chunky_lover]

Thats why I figured the flow chart really cant be changed, as it would add another page to do so. Its really not a big deal, but I just keep reading posts where a new person has read the flow chart, and still was confused. They pop up all the time. I believe this thread is one example

I would do some pics of legal setups, BB and featureless. I can do ak's. Cant do any featureless ar's though but could do one for 22lr if interested and BB .223.
I can mark what makes them legal. Just let me know.

[Davidoff]

If we are looking for a better question, perhaps something along the lines of:

"Can the magazine be removed without the use of a tool, such as the tip of a bullet?"

Just a thought...

[stix213]

Yes, I undestand it better now. What gets me is why do these features make it evil.....sure may make it a little more comfortable, may help with the flash, folding stock may make it easier to conceal but it really just changes the way it looks more or less, not the way it operates.

It has much more to do with how guns look in the movies than anything related to actual public safety.

Bad guy in a movie mows people down in a movie while holding a pistol grip from the hip? Ban pistol grips
Bad guy in a movie kills a woman with a silencer while people in the next room only hear a mouse farting? Ban silencers
Bad guy in a movie has an AK-47? Ban AK-47 series
etc

In the end you can still buy a Saiga AK variant rifle with a hunting rifle style stock, use your 30 pre-ban 75 round drum mags, and all of these laws accomplished exactly nothing while making people who can't tell a real gun from a crossbow feel better about how they just saved the world.