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goback
12-09-2010, 8:16 AM
how come the sks is not part of the C&R. i was thinkin about picking one up at the next gun show and was looking foward to no waiting period, but now that ive heard this... ....

zinfull
12-09-2010, 8:22 AM
You can buy the yugo SKS which is a C&R. Others have to 50 yrs old.

jerry

paul0660
12-09-2010, 8:22 AM
They are C&R, but most are not 50 years old, which they have to be to avoid an FFL transfer in California.

Jerry is not correct.

goback
12-09-2010, 8:23 AM
thanks guys i appreciate the advice

Markus
12-09-2010, 10:12 AM
Yugo sks are an interesting little item because there's no real records of manufacture and it's not really stamped on there. You could buy a Russian sks though which is c&r no problem.

sevensix2x51
12-09-2010, 10:22 AM
My cugir is a 1959, and c&r. 1960 and later (soon to be 1961) do not meet the 50yr mark for california. And they must be in original configuration, iirc. An old rifle in a tapco stock takes it out of c&r status, if im not mistaken... please correct me if im wrong, I wont be offended.

paul0660
12-09-2010, 10:31 AM
Lots of info on 59/66's, not M59's, but the word is they were not manufactured until the early 60's.

http://i176.photobucket.com/albums/w162/paul0660/yugochart-1.jpg

goback
12-09-2010, 10:35 AM
where do you find charts like that. this stuff is great. this is helping so much being a part of this forum. this is only my second day and i think ive learned more about this stuff than i have in the last month of googling around

zinfull
12-09-2010, 11:47 AM
I mis replied to the OP question. I know that Yugo SKS are C&R but not all SKS's are. Yes you have to dros them but with the proper paperwork, COE & FFL03, then you can walk out with the gun. There are some over 50 years old that you can cash and carry.

Does any one have the web page of the updates to the C&R listing?
http://www.atf.treas.gov/firearms/curios/index.htm does not work.

jerry

paul0660
12-09-2010, 11:52 AM
The right side of this page has links to the list:
http://www.atf.gov/publications/firearms/curios-relics/

morrcarr67
12-09-2010, 12:34 PM
These are all I could find listed.

Albanian SKS semiautomatic rifles, caliber 7.62 x 39, manufactured in Albania from 1964 to 1978.
Russian (U.S.S.R.), Simonov, semiautomatic rifle, model SKS, cal. 7.62 x 39, of Soviet manufacture
Yugoslavian manufactured rifles M59 and M59/66, 7.62 x 39 mm caliber, all semiautomatic variations and having a fixed magazine, manufactured from 1947-1992

I could have sworn that the Romanian ones were listed too, but I could not find them. Also, could not find the East German model either.

Interloper
12-09-2010, 12:34 PM
Chinese and Albanian SKS's are not C&R in CA. Some Romanian's are, some are not old enough. All Soviet SKS's are CA C&R.

morrcarr67
12-09-2010, 12:36 PM
Chinese and Albanian SKS's are not C&R in CA. Some Romanian's are, some are not old enough. All Soviet SKS's are CA C&R.

Why would the Albanian not be C&R in California? They are list in the ATF C&R book as being C&R. That makes them C&R.

Dr Rockso
12-09-2010, 12:51 PM
Why would the Albanian not be C&R in California? They are list in the ATF C&R book as being C&R. That makes them C&R.

Exactly. We really need to stop using the term "C&R in California" to mean "50+ years old". It's confusing and inaccurate. Once again:

Subdivision (d) and paragraph (1) of subdivision (f) of
Section 12072 shall not apply to the infrequent sale, loan, or
transfer of a firearm that is not a handgun, which is a curio or
relic manufactured at least 50 years prior to the current date,

So the requirements for transactions without the involvement of a CA dealer are:
1. not a handgun
2. a curio and relic
3. 50 years old

Interloper
12-09-2010, 1:03 PM
Albanian's are "Curios". Not "Relics". C but not R. Thus, not C&R in CA. :p

Caribouriver
12-09-2010, 1:12 PM
I think for the Yugo m59/66 to be legal in CA it has to have its grenade launcher removed. I have seen Big 5 selling these with the GL cut off and a crappy muzzle brake spot welded on.

zinfull
12-09-2010, 2:02 PM
C&R is one law in the Federal status. Ca only added their requirement of 50 yrs old for long guns. The gun is a C&R even if CA will not let you cash and carry with a FFL03 & COE. Get a FFL03 and go to another state and buy.

jerry

olhunter
12-09-2010, 2:06 PM
So the requirements for transactions without the involvement of a CA dealer are:
1. not a handgun
2. a curio and relic
3. 50 years old

You can eliminate number 2. If it's 50 years old, it already is a C&R.

So -

1. not a handgun
2. 50 years old

Rogerbutthead
12-09-2010, 2:08 PM
What do you guys think of the Yugo SKS's on sale right now at Big 5?

http://big5sportinggoods.shoplocal.com/big5/Default.aspx?action=browsepagedetail&storeid=2503823&rapid=1054659&pagenumber=2&listingid=-2085173468

Dr Rockso
12-09-2010, 2:22 PM
You can eliminate number 2. If it's 50 years old, it already is a C&R.

So -

1. not a handgun
2. 50 years old

With the important caveat: firearms manufactured more than 50 years ago that are not in their original configuration aren't considered C&R. The "must be C&R" condition needs to be retained in order to fully define the requirements.

morrcarr67
12-09-2010, 2:50 PM
I think for the Yugo m59/66 to be legal in CA it has to have its grenade launcher removed. I have seen Big 5 selling these with the GL cut off and a crappy muzzle brake spot welded on.

You are correct. There are several ways to do this. Weld a cover over the GL, remove the GL and replace it with a Muzzle Break or even a Flash Hider. These rifles don't have any evil feature so you could put a Flash Hider on these rifles.

Tapco makes a great Muzzle Break (http://www.tapco.com/products/sks/index.php?_a=viewProd&productId=201) for the M59/66 for only $15. They also make a full line of 922r Compliance Parts (http://www.tapco.com/products/sks/index.php?_a=viewCat&catId=36).

tuolumnejim
12-09-2010, 3:18 PM
What do you guys think of the Yugo SKS's on sale right now at Big 5?

http://big5sportinggoods.shoplocal.com/big5/Default.aspx?action=browsepagedetail&storeid=2503823&rapid=1054659&pagenumber=2&listingid=-2085173468

I'll stick with my '51 Tula that I thought I paid to much for in the 80's @ 249.00. :43:

Noonanda
12-09-2010, 3:41 PM
With the important caveat: firearms manufactured more than 50 years ago that are not in their original configuration aren't considered C&R. The "must be C&R" condition needs to be retained in order to fully define the requirements.

Some people dont recogonize this or choose to disregard it.

Rogerbutthead
12-09-2010, 4:00 PM
Well, I kinda wish I could go back and buy more Chinese SKS's at $99 apiece or the Russians when Trader's use to sell them for $149, but is the Yugo at Big 5 a deal at $399 now or should I wait/find it somewhere else at a better price?

I have not really thought about another SKS until now, but I never did pick up a Yugo version for my accumulation.

morrcarr67
12-09-2010, 4:35 PM
Well, I kinda wish I could go back and buy more Chinese SKS's at $99 apiece or the Russians when Trader's use to sell them for $149, but is the Yugo at Big 5 a deal at $399 now or should I wait/find it somewhere else at a better price?

I have not really thought about another SKS until now, but I never did pick up a Yugo version for my accumulation.

Not a great price, these are listed as low as $299 from wholesale companies and internet sales. Problem is that those all have the GL so they won't ship to California.

So, since these ones have been made California compliant it's an OK price. Just make sure they did a good job replacing the GL. :)

Interloper
12-09-2010, 4:54 PM
With the important caveat: firearms manufactured more than 50 years ago that are not in their original configuration aren't considered C&R. The "must be C&R" condition needs to be retained in order to fully define the requirements.

No sir.
That only applies to Federal C&R status. If the receiver is 50 years old it's still Ca legal. ;)

Dr Rockso
12-09-2010, 5:58 PM
No sir.
That only applies to Federal C&R status. If the receiver is 50 years old it's still Ca legal. ;)

Arg...again, Federal C&R status is the only type of C&R status.

Per 12078 curio and relic is "defined in Section 478.11 of Title 27 of the Code of Federal Regulations." Federal law requires that the gun be in original configuration to be C&R, hence CA requires it both be C&R as well as 50+ years old. This is why incorrect terms like "CA C&R" are misleading.

Interloper
12-09-2010, 6:06 PM
Arg...again, Federal C&R status is the only type of C&R status.

Per 12078 curio and relic is "defined in Section 478.11 of Title 27 of the Code of Federal Regulations." Federal law requires that the gun be in original configuration to be C&R, hence CA requires it both be C&R as well as 50+ years old. This is why incorrect terms like "CA C&R" are misleading.

You are right and you are wrong. CA doesn't give a damn about Federal C&R status. The long gun/50 year rule is the only criteria.

Dr Rockso
12-09-2010, 6:14 PM
You are right and you are wrong. CA doesn't give a damn about Federal C&R status. The long gun/50 year rule is the only criteria.

So they added the "curio and relic" phrase to 12078 for what reason exactly?

Subdivision (d) and paragraph (1) of subdivision (f) of
Section 12072 shall not apply to the infrequent sale, loan, or
transfer of a firearm that is not a handgun, which is a curio or
relic manufactured at least 50 years prior to the current date,

They also define what "curio and relic" means in that same section, referencing Federal law.

Interloper
12-09-2010, 7:10 PM
So they added the "curio and relic" phrase to 12078 for what reason exactly?



They also define what "curio and relic" means in that same section, referencing Federal law.

Oh...you were quoting state law. Why didn't you say so?
I'm not a lawyer but I did stay at a Holiday Inn. :cool:

Dr Rockso
12-09-2010, 7:13 PM
Oh...you were quoting state law. Why didn't you say so?
I'm not a lawyer but I did stay at a Holiday Inn. :cool:

Guess I've been reading calguns long enough that whenever I read or write something of the format "120XX" I mentally insert "CA Penal Code". Mea culpa.

Interloper
12-09-2010, 8:08 PM
Guess I've been reading calguns long enough that whenever I read or write something of the format "120XX" I mentally insert "CA Penal Code". Mea culpa.

I still giggle every time I see the word "penal".

Toyman321
12-09-2010, 8:51 PM
I think seeing SKS threads with the same question so many times almost requires a sticky at this point with the entire "what it, and what is not" in CA. Not meaning to offend anyone in saying this, I just think it would be helpful.

SVT_Fox
12-10-2010, 5:10 AM
Yugo sks are an interesting little item because there's no real records of manufacture and it's not really stamped on there. You could buy a Russian sks though which is c&r no problem.

Yugos are infact mysteryous in dates. That's why I love my unmolested battle worn m59

Not a fan of the 59/66

Caseless
12-10-2010, 3:50 PM
Yugos are infact mysteryous in dates. That's why I love my unmolested battle worn m59

Not a fan of the 59/66

Ah, a connoisseur. However, if you absolutely and positively need to print some 2-inch groups at 200 yards, then you need an unissued M59/66.:)

mdouglas1980
12-11-2010, 10:01 AM
Exactly. We really need to stop using the term "C&R in California" to mean "50+ years old". It's confusing and inaccurate. Once again:



So the requirements for transactions without the involvement of a CA dealer are:
1. not a handgun
2. a curio and relic
3. 50 years old

^^^^ Yes I read this too many times here on Calguns and I think this confuses a lot of people too, the proper nomenclature should be "cash and carry" for a 50 year old rifle in CA. Even though they are also C&R.
I recently bought a Rahsheed from a fellow calgunner and it's on the Federal C&R list but is not 50 years old, luckily there was someone at the gun store we did the transfer at that understood this and that I could "cash and carry" with my 03 and my COE

glennsche
12-11-2010, 12:38 PM
These are all I could find listed.

Albanian SKS semiautomatic rifles, caliber 7.62 x 39, manufactured in Albania from 1964 to 1978.
Russian (U.S.S.R.), Simonov, semiautomatic rifle, model SKS, cal. 7.62 x 39, of Soviet manufacture
Yugoslavian manufactured rifles M59 and M59/66, 7.62 x 39 mm caliber, all semiautomatic variations and having a fixed magazine, manufactured from 1947-1992

I could have sworn that the Romanian ones were listed too, but I could not find them. Also, could not find the East German model either.

are there any e. german SKSs on the market? Or are they all locked in a warehouse in brandenburg somewhere? i've never seen one for sale, but would absolutely LOVE to get one.

i'd like to get an albanian one too, just so i could say i own something of albanian manufacture. :)

Interloper
12-11-2010, 5:29 PM
are there any e. german SKSs on the market? Or are they all locked in a warehouse in brandenburg somewhere? i've never seen one for sale, but would absolutely LOVE to get one.

i'd like to get an albanian one too, just so i could say i own something of albanian manufacture. :)

There are "01" marked DDR SKS's out there. Don't expect to see one for sale at your local Big-5 ;)

emcon5
12-11-2010, 5:54 PM
Federal law requires that the gun be in original configuration to be C&R,

Cite the USC section that says this please.......;)

dustoff31
12-11-2010, 6:55 PM
Originally Posted by Dr Rockso
Federal law requires that the gun be in original configuration to be C&R,

Cite the USC section that says this please.......;)

The USC doesn't say it. Nevertheless, BATFE says it is so.

http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/curios-relics.html#modifications

Q: What modifications can be made on C&R firearms without changing their C&R classification?

The definition for curio or relic (“C & R”) firearms found in 27 CFR 478.11 does not specifically state that a firearm must be in its original condition to be classified as a C&R firearm. However, ATF Ruling 85-10, which discusses the importation of military C&R firearms, notes that they must be in original configuration and adds that a receiver is not a C&R item. Combining this ruling and the definition of C&R firearms, the Firearms Technology Branch (FTB) has concluded that a firearm must be in its original condition to be considered a C&R weapon.

It is also the opinion of FTB, however, that a minor change such as the addition of scope mounts, non-original sights, or sling swivels would not remove a firearm from its original condition. Moreover, we have determined that replacing particular firearms parts with new parts that are made to the original design would also be acceptable-for example, replacing a cracked M1 Grand stock with a new wooden stock of the same design, but replacing the original firearm stock with a plastic stock would change its classification as a C&R item.

morrcarr67
12-11-2010, 7:16 PM
are there any e. german SKSs on the market? Or are they all locked in a warehouse in brandenburg somewhere? i've never seen one for sale, but would absolutely LOVE to get one.

i'd like to get an albanian one too, just so i could say i own something of albanian manufacture. :)

Read an article about the Eat German SKS in Shotgun News a while back. They say that there aren't many in the states and when and if you find one be ready to pay a high premium. The article said that you should be ready to pay over $1500 for one.

emcon5
12-11-2010, 7:27 PM
The USC doesn't say it. My point.

I know I am a bit of a broken record on this, but it is stupid, and bugs the hell out of me.

dustoff31
12-11-2010, 7:47 PM
My point.

I know I am a bit of a broken record on this, but it is stupid, and bugs the hell out of me.

I understand. Since it is merely a BATFE ruling and not a law, I would be interested to know what the penalty for a violation is. Aside from them making one's life a living hell if they choose to. With impunity, of course.