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creampuff
07-10-2006, 9:56 AM
Did anyone see this video-doesn't-lie posting on THR? If you scroll to the middle or bottom you can see the 2nd perspective. This would make me think twice if I were ever placed on a jury that was dependent on video evidence.

http://patterico.com/2006/06/08/4661/the-video-doesnt-lie-right/

megavolt121
07-10-2006, 10:15 AM
Wow, I can't believe they shot him 10 times. Was he doped up or was the cop just a bad shot?

tman
07-10-2006, 10:20 AM
Looked like a murder to me.

creampuff
07-10-2006, 10:22 AM
Looked like a murder to me.
That's what I thought at first, but take a look at the 2nd and 3rd video.

kenc9
07-10-2006, 10:49 AM
As soon as that guy got out with that gun he would have been dead if I were the LEO. Those two cops need training, the cop to the right had a pistol pointed at him twice and failed to shoot.

-ken

bodyarmorguy27
07-10-2006, 11:06 AM
Lag time is a problem. It takes a couple seconds for you to see the threat, make a decision, and react to the threat. It's not as easy as it sounds. I have been there twice before. Some call it the "window". It opens and closes really fast.

I won't criticize their actions because I wasn't there.

Apeman88
07-10-2006, 11:07 AM
Before I saw the video... I thought... oh great... another dumb ****** cop shot some innocent guy again... but the video doesn't lie... with the 2nd video... the shooting is completely justified... cops gave the dumb ****** bg plenty of time to stop... ya... I would of shot the guy the first time he pointed a gun (or a cell phone that looked like a guy) at me. Thumbs up for the cops... at least this time.:D

Maybe the reason the cops waited to shoot the bg was becuase of liquor store in the back ground? but then it looks like the first shot the cop took, if missed, would of hit the store dead center.

Ken

megavolt121
07-10-2006, 11:11 AM
As soon as that guy got out with that gun he would have been dead if I were the LEO. Those two cops need training, the cop to the right had a pistol pointed at him twice and failed to shoot.

-ken

I'm glad you aren't a cop. Look again at the second video. The cop that shot never had a "gun" pointed at him. I've seen this case before somewhere else, and IIRC, the guy was holding a cellphone. Considering the situation, I think the cop did a perfectly good job. He assessed the situation and attempted control it without use of deadly force. When all else failed, that's when he shot.

magmaster
07-10-2006, 11:27 AM
But they left out the other part of the story where the guy knocked off a liguor store before that. He had used a gun in the crime and they assumed he was armed, what they thought was a gun was a cell phone. In that kind of situation its tough and I think the LE did the right thing. The guy was a criminal nonethless.

Also a good video showing the need for a .45 because the 9mm were doing nothing to him.

xrMike
07-10-2006, 11:27 AM
After seeing the 2nd vid, that sure looks like "suicide by cop" to me...

VeryCoolCat
07-10-2006, 12:17 PM
Why can't officers shoot people who run.... the brazilians do it.

If your running, the cops should be gunning.

Nobody runs unless they're very drugged or having some reason to run.

tcrpe
07-10-2006, 1:05 PM
Looked like a murder to me.


You just proved his point.

vonsmith
07-10-2006, 1:22 PM
Okay, I'm not a professional, but... Sitting here in my comfy chair I assess that I would have fired the first time the dirtbag pointed what appeared to be a gun at my partner or myself.

I don't want to encourage "gun happy" cops, but geez. I wonder how many cops are not going to make it to retirement being a little too gun shy? Our PC and litigation prone society has made it tough on LE.


=vonsmith=

AW-FANATIC
07-10-2006, 2:03 PM
Why can't officers shoot people who run.... the brazilians do it.

If your running, the cops should be gunning.

Nobody runs unless they're very drugged or having some reason to run.
I agree. If your not complying with the orders of LE to stop with their guns drawn you should be shot period. Im sick of hearing about idiots attempting to fight with LEOs and getting shot in the process then listening to their families talk about how its the cops fault, their son was a good boy.

Diabolus
07-10-2006, 3:32 PM
I agree. If your not complying with the orders of LE to stop with their guns drawn you should be shot period. Im sick of hearing about idiots attempting to fight with LEOs and getting shot in the process then listening to their families talk about how its the cops fault, their son was a good boy.

:eek:

Thank god we don't live in a country that shoots people if they run away from cops.

PistolKidd
07-10-2006, 4:10 PM
I agree. If your not complying with the orders of LE to stop with their guns drawn you should be shot period. Im sick of hearing about idiots attempting to fight with LEOs and getting shot in the process then listening to their families talk about how its the cops fault, their son was a good boy.

ehh? thats some crazy ****..

Mod-edit: do not try to dodge the filters.

there was this hurricane.. called "Katrina".. it turns out that cops were going door to door confiscating weapons from law abiding citizens..

but hey, that's ok right? since they're cops, and if they pull their gun and say, "give me your guns" you're going to comply and simply hand over your stuff..

some perp runs, you dont give up you AW's... by the same logic of mandatory compliance, you should be immediately shot if you dont hand over your
stuff..?

Shane916
07-10-2006, 4:51 PM
:eek:

Thank god we don't live in a country that shoots people if they run away from cops.


Only criminals run from cops and therefore they (the criminals) should be shot :)

tman
07-10-2006, 5:00 PM
That's what I thought at first, but take a look at the 2nd and 3rd video.
Oh, I did not even see that there was a second video.

After watching the second video, and reading some of the comentary, it's easy to see that it wasn't just another example of excessive force. Too bad the cops had to take his life.

Did anyone else think he looked like he was drugged up?

Charliegone
07-10-2006, 6:36 PM
Cops were justified. In fact they gave him a chance. On the second video he pointed what "looked like a gun" towards one of the officers and thus end up dead. Justified shooting.

M. Sage
07-10-2006, 6:55 PM
Did anyone else think he looked like he was drugged up?

Yeah, he looked like he was doped out of his mind. It'd be neat to hear what they found in the autopsy.

It did look an awful lot like he wanted to get shot. The cops gave him more than enough chances to drop his gun (phone, same thing) and surrender.

@ AW-Fanatic: That happened recently in SF. A guy they were after for dealing drugs from a stolen car tried to run the cops over when they blocked him in and tried approaching the car. The family was very upset that he'd been shot from leg to neck, IIRC, and couldn't understand why the LEOs didn't shoot out the tires... Yeah, 'cause that stops cars at medium-low speeds... They also didn't understand why the officers shot him so many times (gee, mabye it was the 3000 lbs of steel, glass and rubber rushing at them, threw their concentration off a tiny bit, ya think?)

USMC_2651_E5
07-10-2006, 6:58 PM
Oh, I did not even see that there was a second video.

After watching the second video, and reading some of the comentary, it's easy to see that it wasn't just another example of excessive force. Too bad the cops had to take his life.

Did anyone else think he looked like he was drugged up?

Excessive force? That was appropriate force! The Cops were in pursuit of a crook who failed to obey lawful commands. He then, clear as day, pointed an object that looked like a gun at the cops, and they did what they had to do to go home to thier families at the end of the day.

Someone else said that one of the cops that shot at the crook never had the gun/cell phone pointed at him. And the point? Say the gun was real and the crook shot and killed your partner. Try telling the widow that you could have prevented the death of her husband by shooting the crook, but he never pointed the gun at you so you did nothing. Deadly force is authorized to protect not only your life, but also the lives of others.

I never understood how the first question after the fog clears is "were the cops (good guy) actions justified?" Why dont we ask why the crook (bad guy) committed the crime and put the safety of the public at risk. The cops engage in acts, on a daily basis, where they jump into harms way to protect perfect strangers. And we thank them by critisizing thier actions.

Just my $0.02.

Charliegone
07-10-2006, 7:02 PM
Its like I said...better you than me. Sorry but thats the way it is. The cop has a family he has to worry about and all he is trying to do is his job. It might be the same for the thief, BUT the difference is he is breaking the law.

xrMike
07-10-2006, 7:23 PM
Only criminals run from cops and therefore they (the criminals) should be shot :)I hope you don't really believe that. There's so much wrong with that statement I don't know where to begin... ;)

AW-FANATIC
07-10-2006, 10:08 PM
Yeah, he looked like he was doped out of his mind. It'd be neat to hear what they found in the autopsy.

It did look an awful lot like he wanted to get shot. The cops gave him more than enough chances to drop his gun (phone, same thing) and surrender.

@ AW-Fanatic: That happened recently in SF. A guy they were after for dealing drugs from a stolen car tried to run the cops over when they blocked him in and tried approaching the car. The family was very upset that he'd been shot from leg to neck, IIRC, and couldn't understand why the LEOs didn't shoot out the tires... Yeah, 'cause that stops cars at medium-low speeds... They also didn't understand why the officers shot him so many times (gee, mabye it was the 3000 lbs of steel, glass and rubber rushing at them, threw their concentration off a tiny bit, ya think?)

This is exactly the type of thing I'm talking about. What I meant by my post was that if your staring down the barrel of a cops gun and try to run from or assault the officer you deserve to be shot. OK maybe not "deserve" to be shot but should "expect" to be shot. If I were to run from an officer pointing a gun at me I wouldn't expect anything less. I assume that if a guy has a gun pointed at me and tells me to stop and I continue to run I am going to get shot. LE or not. Depending on the situation I might try to run anyway, but I would be doing so thinking the bullets will be coming my way soon. If the time comes where the government comes bangin on my door for my guns I have 2 choices give 'em up or use them. As for which I would choose, it would entirely depend on the situation at hand.

tenpercentfirearms
07-10-2006, 10:40 PM
Why can't officers shoot people who run.... the brazilians do it.Cops in Bakersfield and Kern County do it all the time. If you are a confirmed armed robbery suspect, they light you up. The Bakersfield Police department does it just about every time a gang banger comes up from LA and wants some of the small town action. I can remember a few different instances in my 29 years. One, the guy robbed a store and was fleeing. He jumps out of his car while it is still moving and starts to run across an empty lot. "Police stop!" Bang, bang, bang. Dead criminal. What did he have in his hands? Nothing. Again, it is not best to run from the Bakersfield Police Department after committing a 211.

ldivinag
07-10-2006, 11:16 PM
[quote]Why can't officers shoot people who run.... the brazilians do it./[quote]Cops in Bakersfield and Kern County do it all the time. If you are a confirmed armed robbery suspect, they light you up. The Bakersfield Police department does it just about every time a gang banger comes up from LA and wants some of the small town action. I can remember a few different instances in my 29 years. One, the guy robbed a store and was fleeing. He jumps out of his car while it is still moving and starts to run across an empty lot. "Police stop!" Bang, bang, bang. Dead criminal. What did he have in his hands? Nothing. Again, it is not best to run from the Bakersfield Police Department after committing a 211.

wes,

was there a big trial, jesse jackson type event surrounding this shooting?

USMC_2651_E5
07-11-2006, 1:12 AM
Under California law it is legal to shoot a fleeing felon. The felony has to be a violent crime like murder, rape, robbery, mayhem, etc. The officer must also believe that there is a risk to public and LE safety if the suspect continues to evade custody.

tygerpaw
07-11-2006, 5:59 AM
Its unfortunate these guys put themselves in these situations and get themselves killed. But there is a principle of life, you reap what you sow.

How do you think the cops feel about killing a person, especially when the guy really didnt have a gun. I'm sure they feel justified in their actions and they should, but no normal person takes pleasure in taking a life.

tenpercentfirearms
07-11-2006, 8:45 AM
wes,

was there a big trial, jesse jackson type event surrounding this shooting?This is Kern County. There are no trials. Just funerals.

mailman
07-11-2006, 9:51 AM
that was crazy.......

tman
07-11-2006, 9:56 AM
Excessive force? That was appropriate force! The Cops were in pursuit of a crook who failed to obey lawful commands. He then, clear as day, pointed an object that looked like a gun at the cops, and they did what they had to do to go home to thier families at the end of the day.

Someone else said that one of the cops that shot at the crook never had the gun/cell phone pointed at him. And the point? Say the gun was real and the crook shot and killed your partner. Try telling the widow that you could have prevented the death of her husband by shooting the crook, but he never pointed the gun at you so you did nothing. Deadly force is authorized to protect not only your life, but also the lives of others.

I never understood how the first question after the fog clears is "were the cops (good guy) actions justified?" Why dont we ask why the crook (bad guy) committed the crime and put the safety of the public at risk. The cops engage in acts, on a daily basis, where they jump into harms way to protect perfect strangers. And we thank them by critisizing thier actions.

Just my $0.02.
I don't think you correctly read my post...

Clodbuster
07-11-2006, 11:34 AM
Well.....I wouldn't say that...

Clod

:eek:

Thank god we don't live in a country that shoots people if they run away from cops.

Clodbuster
07-11-2006, 11:37 AM
Well, if you go by that mentality, only 2 kinds of people need guns...Cops and criminals. If you aren't one, you are the other.


Clod

Only criminals run from cops and therefore they (the criminals) should be shot :)

Clodbuster
07-11-2006, 11:54 AM
Was the guy a crook? Where was the trial proving him guilty. Or do Street judges make the decision these days in our Megacities.

I may be carrying a cell phone, some dude runs by me with an assault rifle, turns the corner and disappears. Next thing I hear is "drop the gun"....
Do I get to go home to my family at the end of the day? Maybe if I wore body armor that can stop a bullet and give me a bruise or two. But then again, I can't really buy a good one in a store these days. Do the police in Lousiana wear body armour?
Why don't we ask the "crook" his story? Or is he dead....

Clod


Excessive force? That was appropriate force! The Cops were in pursuit of a crook who failed to obey lawful commands. He then, clear as day, pointed an object that looked like a gun at the cops, and they did what they had to do to go home to thier families at the end of the day.

Someone else said that one of the cops that shot at the crook never had the gun/cell phone pointed at him. And the point? Say the gun was real and the crook shot and killed your partner. Try telling the widow that you could have prevented the death of her husband by shooting the crook, but he never pointed the gun at you so you did nothing. Deadly force is authorized to protect not only your life, but also the lives of others.

I never understood how the first question after the fog clears is "were the cops (good guy) actions justified?" Why dont we ask why the crook (bad guy) committed the crime and put the safety of the public at risk. The cops engage in acts, on a daily basis, where they jump into harms way to protect perfect strangers. And we thank them by critisizing thier actions.

Just my $0.02.

DevLcL
07-11-2006, 4:51 PM
they missed.... alot

USMC_2651_E5
07-11-2006, 6:32 PM
TMan, You are right. I mistook the "wasn't" for "was." Sorry.



Was the guy a crook? Where was the trial proving him guilty. Or do Street judges make the decision these days in our Megacities.

I may be carrying a cell phone, some dude runs by me with an assault rifle, turns the corner and disappears. Next thing I hear is "drop the gun"....
Do I get to go home to my family at the end of the day? Maybe if I wore body armor that can stop a bullet and give me a bruise or two. But then again, I can't really buy a good one in a store these days. Do the police in Lousiana wear body armour?
Why don't we ask the "crook" his story? Or is he dead....

Clod

Clod,

I understand your view, and would even consider asking the crook his story if he would stop trying to get away. He became a crook when he failed to stop and led them in a pursuit that endangered the public. And if he is dead, its because of his own actions. Sorry for not feeling sympathetic.

ocean
07-11-2006, 7:38 PM
http://urbanlegends.about.com/library/bl_cell_phone_guns.htm

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-6110582980711782027&q=cell+gun


anyone ever seen one of these?

and yes, he got what he deserved. He robbed a liquor store, then resisted the police. If he got shot because they were afraid he had a gun... well, he should have thought of that sooner...........................

tacosauce
07-15-2006, 4:45 AM
Under California law it is legal to shoot a fleeing felon. The felony has to be a violent crime like murder, rape, robbery, mayhem, etc. The officer must also believe that there is a risk to public and LE safety if the suspect continues to evade custody.

No, we have to protect our criminals! What kind of animals do you think we are? How would you like to get shot after robbing a store at gunpoint, then running away from armed cops telling you to stop? Think of the free room & board, college degrees, and t.v. the criminals would miss. Also they would miss the chance for parole in a few years to get out and do it all again. Shame, shame, shame for shooting a dangerous criminal!

USMC_2651_E5
07-15-2006, 12:51 PM
No, we have to protect our criminals! What kind of animals do you think we are? How would you like to get shot after robbing a store at gunpoint, then running away from armed cops telling you to stop? Think of the free room & board, college degrees, and t.v. the criminals would miss. Also they would miss the chance for parole in a few years to get out and do it all again. Shame, shame, shame for shooting a dangerous criminal!

Sarcasim at it's best. Although its' legal, it doesn't happen as often as it should. This is due to internal affairs investigations and civil lawsuits that come after the shooting.

Electric Factory
07-15-2006, 3:00 PM
Looks like a murder to me too.
Especially having seen the second video.

USMC_2651_E5
07-15-2006, 5:45 PM
It wasn't murder. There was nothing criminal about thier actions. Murder is a crime. CPC definition of murder: The unlawful killing of a human being.

It was a homicide though. And from what I saw in the videos, especially the second, was that it appeared justified.

marklbucla
07-16-2006, 7:36 PM
I couldn't really tell, but were there a lot of misses and then a hit or two that brought him down or were those all good hits?

If they were good hits, were they shooting 9mm?




I went to a California Rifle and Pistol Association Banquet a couple of years ago with Skunkabilly and heard the Kern County sheriff speak. That said, Kern does not sound like the county to be committing crimes in.

choochboost
07-19-2006, 2:35 PM
For the record, the cops had .40 pistols. For all you narrow minded .45 fans, the same thing could have happened with a .45. Obviously the placement of the shots was less than ideal, but he did drop within seconds as opposed to a minute or two.

For those who think think was murder...are you the ones I see at the range with the sideways gangster grip? C'mon, this was clearly justified and the cops showed restraint. From the way the cop ducked down, it clear he thought the bag guy had a gun.