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KenpoProfessor
07-10-2006, 5:09 AM
So, instead of fighting DOJ on all the misnomers they've got for AW laws, configuring our OLL's in whatever fashion, and seeing what the PRK safelist is going to allow us to buy, why not spend that time and effort to get an amendment to the California constitution for RKBA? Isn't that what we really want, to become a free state?

Certainly this is what the NRA would like to see, is this not an issue with them right now? As many times as I've seen them at gun shows and such, I didn't see any of them with petitions to create an RKBA Amendment.

Am I totally off base with this or what?

Have a great Kenpo day

Clyde

radioactivelego
07-10-2006, 7:01 AM
It was attempted for the 2006 election and was going full force, but we came short of them due to small technical tomfoolery with paper sizes and incorrectly filled out ones.

In 2008, however, all hell's gonna break loose. :cool:

SemiAutoSam
07-10-2006, 7:03 AM
See if you can find anything that resembeles the 2A in either of these two documents.

http://www.ss.ca.gov/archives/level3_const1849txt.html

http://www.ucop.edu/cprc/caconst.pdf

Here is an interesting website

http://www.freerepublic.com/forum/a3af9fb5f7f88.htm

and here it talks about defending life and liberty and protecting property.


ARTICLE I.

Declaration of Rights.

Sec. 1. All men are by nature free and independent, and have certain inalienable rights, among which are those of enjoying and defending life and liberty, acquiring, possessing, and protecting property: and pursuing and obtaining safety and happiness.

Sec. 2. All political power is inherent in the people. Government is instituted for the protection, security, and benefit of the people; and they have the right to alter or reform the same, whenever the public good may require it.

Sec. 3. The right of trial by jury shall be secured to all, and remain inviolate forever; but a jury trial may be waved by the parties, in all civil cases, in the manner to be prescribed by law.

Sec. 4. The free exercise and enjoyment of religious profession and worship, without discrimination or preference, shall forever be allowed in this State: and no person shall be rendered incompetent to be a witness on account of his opinions on matters of religious belief; but the liberty of conscience, hereby secured, shall not be so construed as to excuse acts of licentiousness, or justify practices inconsistent with the peace or safety of this State.

Sec. 5. The privilege of the writ of habeas corpus shall not be suspended, unless when, in cases of rebellion or invasion, the public safety may require its suspension.

Sec. 6. Excessive bail shall not be required, nor excessive fines imposed, nor shall cruel or unusual punishments be inflicted, nor shall witnesses be unreasonably detained.

Sec. 7. All persons shall be bailable, by sufficient sureties: unless for capital offences, when the proof is evident or the presumption great.

Sec. 8. No person shall be held to answer for a capital or otherwise infamous crime, (except in cases of impeachment, and in cases of militia when in actual service, and the land naval forces in time of war, or which this State may keep with the consent of Congress in time of peace, and in cases of petit larceny under the regulation of the Legislature) unless on presentment or indictment of a grand jury; and in any trial in any court whatever, the party accused shall be allowed to appear and defend in person and with counsel, as in civil actions. No person shall be subject to be twice put jeopardy for the same offence; nor shall he be compelled, in any criminal case, to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use without just compensation.

Sec. 9. Every citizen may freely speak, write, and publish his sentiments on all subjects, being responsible for the abuse of that right; and no law shall be passed to restrain or abridge the liberty of speech or of the press. In all criminal prosecutions on indictments for libels, the truth may be given in evidence to the jury; and if it shall appear to the jury that the matter charged as libellous is true, and was published with good motives and for justifiable ends, the party shall be acquitted; and the jury shall have the right to determine the law and the fact.

Sec. 10. The people shall have the right freely to assemble together, to consult for the common good, to instruct their representatives, and to petition the legislature for redress of grievances.

Sec. 11. All laws of a general nature shall have a uniform operation.

Sec. 12. The military shall be subordinate to the civil power. No standing army shall be kept up by this State in time of peace; and in time of war no appropriation for a standing army shall be for a longer time than two years.

Sec. 13. No soldier shall, in time of peace, be quartered in any house, without the consent of the owner; nor in time of war, except in the manner to be prescribed by law.

Sec. 14. Representation shall be apportioned according to population.

Sec. 15. No person shall be imprisoned for debt, in any civil action on mesne or final process, unless in cases of fraud; and no person shall be imprisoned for a militia fine in time of peace.

Sec. 16. No bill of attainder, ex post facto law, or law impairing the obligation of contracts, shall ever be passed.

Sec. 17. Foreigners who are, of who may hereafter become bona fide residents if this State, shall enjoy the same rights in respect to the possession, enjoyment, and inheritance of property, as native born citizens,

Sec. 18. Neither slavery, nor involuntary servitude, unless for the punishment of crimes, shall ever be tolerated in this State.

Sec. 19. The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers and effects, against unreasonable seizures and searches, shall not be violated; and no warrant shall issue but on probable cause, supported by oath or affirmation, particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons and things to be seized.

Sec. 20. Treason against the State shall consist only in levying war against it, adhering to its enemies, or giving them aid and comfort. No person shall be convicted of treason, unless the evidence of two witnesses to the same overt act, or confession in open court.

Sec. 21. This enumeration of rights shall not be construed to impair or deny others retained by the people.

Chaingun
07-10-2006, 8:18 AM
Doesn't MA, NY and other states already have some form of RKBA and the socialists just stomp on theirs.

What prevents the socialists from stomping on ours once it's passed?

bootcamp
07-10-2006, 8:51 AM
WTF DOES RKBA stand for?

Stanze
07-10-2006, 8:57 AM
WTF DOES RKBA stand for?

Right to Keep and Bear Arms.

bwiese
07-10-2006, 9:50 AM
We had a get-RKBA-on-the-ballot effort at end of last year and early into this year.

It was instituted by noted gun lawyer Don Kilmer.

We did get quite a bit of activity, people signing petitions, etc. Unfortunately going at the rate it was going there were not gonna be not nearly enough valid signatures at the right time to get it onto the ballot, so it was shut down. (Appropriate, as you don't wanna have 'petition fatigue' - it's like leaving a piece of real estate on the market too long. Better to shut down and start fresh again another time.)
I think next cycle the petitio signature gathering will be prearranged before activity starts.

You'd think the extra attention to gun issues due to OLLs might have helped.

Many idiotic gun owners - "duck hunters", I call 'em - refused to sign, "....didn't "wanna be on a list". Some gun stores - specifically, Old Sacramento Armory - didn't "wanna get involved in political stuff". (They're good friends w/Igggy.)

So CA RKBA efforts crashed and burned.

vrylak
07-10-2006, 9:51 AM
To tell you the truth I didn't even know that each state has its own state constitution until I got in on this board. Learn something everyday.

What happens when the state constitution runs in conflict with the US Constitution, the supreme law of the land, which takes precedence?

From what I've gathered the SCOTUS basically left us, US Citizens, at the mercy of the state's constitution, for example with the RKBA.

Anyone who basically enters/live in SSK/PRK and similar states is a CA/(similar state) resident first and only US Citizen second, we are second-class US Citizens in our own country.

It's really funny and pathetic when you see gun-grabber politicos during times of Memorial Day, Independence Day, Veterans day etc, celebrations, they got their right hands on their left chest singing America the Beautiful, The Star-Spangled Banner, etc. then they turn around and violate the U. S. Constitution.

sac7000
07-10-2006, 3:16 PM
WTF DOES RKBA stand for?

RKBA = Right to Keep and Bear Arms (good idea)

RKAB = Right to Keep and Arm Bears (not a good idea)

SemiAutoSam
07-10-2006, 3:24 PM
From this web sites information it looks like just about every state has a 2A clause in their constitution but about 5 or so states.

have a read

Only about half of it would fit and im getting too lazy to make another post with the rest of it so if you want to see what the other half looks like see the info at the link

http://www.freerepublic.com/forum/a3af9fb5f7f88.htm

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State Constitutional Rights to Keep and Bear Arms

Constitution/Conservatism Miscellaneous Keywords: RKBA STATE CONSTITUTIONS
Source: Official Websites of the 50 States
Published: Wednesday May 9, 2001 Author: We the People of the several states of the union
Posted on 05/09/2001 19:22:23 PDT by Jay W
State of Alabama

Constitution Of Alabama 1901
Article I Declaration of Rights

SECTION 26

Right to bear arms.
That every citizen has a right to bear arms in defense of himself and the state.

----------

State of Alaska

Alaska State Constitution

Article I, Declaration of Rights

SECTION 19. RIGHT TO KEEP AND BEAR ARMS. A well- regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed. The individual right to keep and bear arms shall not be denied or infringed by the State or a political subdivision of the State.

----------

State of Arizona

Arizona State Constitution

Article 2

26 Bearing arms

Section 26. The right of the individual citizen to bear arms in defense of himself or the state shall not be impaired, but nothing in this section shall be construed as authorizing individuals or corporations to organize, maintain, or employ an armed body of men.

----------

State of Arkansas

Arkansas State Constitution

Article 2 Declaration of Rights

Sec. 5. Right to bear arms.

The citizens of this State shall have the right to keep and bear arms for their common defense.

----------

State of Colorado

Colorado Constitution

Article II, Bill of Rights

Section 13. Right to bear arms. The right of no person to keep and bear arms in defense of his home, person and property, or in aid of the civil power when thereto legally summoned, shall be called in question; but nothing herein contained shall be construed to justify the practice of carrying concealed weapons.

----------

State of Connecticut

CONSTITUTION OF THE STATE OF CONNECTICUT

ARTICLE FIRST.
DECLARATION OF RIGHTS

That the great and essential principles of liberty and free government may be recognized and established,

WE DECLARE:

SEC. 15. Every citizen has a right to bear arms in defense of himself and the state.

----------

State of Delaware

Delaware State Constitution

Article 1 Bill of Rights

§20. Right to keep and bear arms.

Section 20. A person has the right to keep and bear arms for the defense of self, family, home and State, and for hunting and recreational use. (4-16-87)

----------

State of Florida

Florida State Constitution

Article I

Declaration of Rights

SECTION 8. Right to bear arms.--

(a) The right of the people to keep and bear arms in defense of themselves and of the lawful authority of the state shall not be infringed, except that the manner of bearing arms may be regulated by law.

(b) There shall be a mandatory period of three days, excluding weekends and legal holidays, between the purchase and delivery at retail of any handgun. For the purposes of this section, "purchase" means the transfer of money or other valuable consideration to the retailer, and "handgun" means a firearm capable of being carried and used by one hand, such as a pistol or revolver. Holders of a concealed weapon permit as prescribed in Florida law shall not be subject to the provisions of this paragraph.

(c) The legislature shall enact legislation implementing subsection (b) of this section, effective no later than December 31, 1991, which shall provide that anyone violating the provisions of subsection (b) shall be guilty of a felony.

(d) This restriction shall not apply to a trade in of another handgun.

----------

State of Georgia

CONSTITUTION OF THE STATE OF GEORGIA

Article 1. Bill of Rights
Section I. Rights of Persons

Paragraph VIII. Arms, right to keep and bear.

The right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed, but the General Assembly shall have power to prescribe the manner in which arms may be borne.

----------

State of Hawaii

THE CONSTITUTION OF THE STATE OF HAWAII

As Amended and in Force January 1, 2000

ARTICLE I

BILL OF RIGHTS

RIGHT TO BEAR ARMS

Section 17. A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed. [Ren Const Con 1978 and election Nov 7, 1978]

----------

State of Idaho

CONSTITUTION OF THE STATE OF IDAHO

ARTICLE I DECLARATION OF RIGHTS

SECTION 11. RIGHT TO KEEP AND BEAR ARMS. The people have the right to keep and bear arms, which right shall not be abridged; but this provision shall not prevent the passage of laws to govern the carrying of weapons concealed on the person nor prevent passage of legislation providing minimum sentences for crimes committed while in possession of a firearm, nor prevent the passage of legislation providing penalties for the possession of firearms by a convicted felon, nor prevent the passage of any legislation punishing the use of a firearm. No law shall impose licensure, registration or special taxation on the ownership or possession of firearms or ammunition. Nor shall any law permit the confiscation of firearms, except those actually used in the commission of a felony.

-----------

State of Illinois

Constitution of the State of Illinois

ARTICLE I

BILL OF RIGHTS

SECTION 22. RIGHT TO ARMS
Subject only to the police power, the right of the individual citizen to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.

----------

State of Indiana

Constitution of the State of Indiana

ARTICLE 1.

Bill of Rights.

Section 32. The people shall have a right to bear arms, for the defense of themselves and the State.

----------

State of Kansas

Kansas State Constitution

Kansas Bill of Rights

§ 4. Bear arms; armies. The people have the right to bear arms for their defense and security; but standing armies, in time of peace, are dangerous to liberty, and shall not be tolerated, and the military shall be in strict subordination to the civil power.

----------

State of Kentucky

Bill of Rights

Section 1

Seventh: The right to bear arms in defense of themselves and of the State, subject to the power of the General Assembly to enact laws to prevent persons from carrying concealed weapons.

----------

State of Louisiana

ARTICLE I. DECLARATION OF RIGHTS

§11. Right to Keep and Bear Arms

Section 11. The right of each citizen to keep and bear arms shall not be abridged, but this provision shall not prevent the passage of laws to prohibit the carrying of weapons concealed on the person.

----------

State of Maine

Article I. Declaration of Rights.

Section 16. To keep and bear arms. Every citizen has a right to keep and bear arms and this right shall never be questioned.

----------

Commonwealth of Massachusetts

Constitution of the Commonwealth of Massachusetts.

PART THE FIRST

A Declaration of the Rights of the Inhabitants of the Commonwealth of Massachusetts.

Article XVII. The people have a right to keep and to bear arms for the common defence. And as, in time of peace, armies are dangerous to liberty, they ought not to be maintained without the consent of the legislature; and the military power shall always be held in an exact subordination to the civil authority, and be governed by it.

----------

State of Michigan

Article 1 Declaration of Rights

ß 6 Bearing of arms.

Sec. 6. Every person has a right to keep and bear arms for the defense of himself and the state.

----------

socalguns
07-11-2006, 3:30 AM
WTF DOES RKBA stand for?

What the heck does WTF stand for? :p

SemiAutoSam
07-11-2006, 7:23 AM
What the heck does WTF stand for? :p

Well we can't state what WTF means in polite company but the jury is still out on that question so.

WTF = WHAT. THE. *UCK


understand ?

vrylak
07-11-2006, 9:42 AM
Sorry to deviate a little but in the first few scenes of the movie "Patton" with George C. Scott, he's riding in some sort of top-down military truck, sirens blazing, rolling along the streets of some North African desert city, there's a red flag up on the front bumper of his truck and on that flag in big bold white letters you'll see the letters: WTF

Now back to your regular programming.

magsnubby
07-11-2006, 8:01 PM
Certainly this is what the NRA would like to see, is this not an issue with them right now? As many times as I've seen them at gun shows and such, I didn't see any of them with petitions to create an RKBA Amendment.

I was involved with the signature gathering earlier this year. The NRA wasn't a damn bit of help. The rank and file members had no problem sighning our petitions but the "counsil" members recruting NRA members at the gun shows wouldn't touch them without having the NRA lawyers giving it "strick scrutiny". I even talked with the counsil leader, same "strick scrutiny" "might actually hurt our cause" crap. He never did get back to me. Even after leaving several messages at his store. If i wasn't already an NRA life member i would tell them where they could stick their "strick scrutiny" when my membership came up for renal.

chris
07-11-2006, 11:06 PM
We had a get-RKBA-on-the-ballot effort at end of last year and early into this year.

It was instituted by noted gun lawyer Don Kilmer.

We did get quite a bit of activity, people signing petitions, etc. Unfortunately going at the rate it was going there were not gonna be not nearly enough valid signatures at the right time to get it onto the ballot, so it was shut down. (Appropriate, as you don't wanna have 'petition fatigue' - it's like leaving a piece of real estate on the market too long. Better to shut down and start fresh again another time.)
I think next cycle the petitio signature gathering will be prearranged before activity starts.

You'd think the extra attention to gun issues due to OLLs might have helped.

Many idiotic gun owners - "duck hunters", I call 'em - refused to sign, "....didn't "wanna be on a list". Some gun stores - specifically, Old Sacramento Armory - didn't "wanna get involved in political stuff". (They're good friends w/Igggy.)

So CA RKBA efforts crashed and burned.

hey i go duck hunting and i'll sign any petition that has to do with getting our frickin rights back. as stated above these are the types that think they are not coming for their guns they use. i hate gun-owners like these. we are our own worst enemy. they will cry when the anti's take their guns away and they can't duck hunt anymore. the same will happen to those who bench shoot and deer hunters will feel the pinch. .50 cal ban is only the start on single shot rifles.

divide and conquer is their strategy and it seems to work.

jdberger
07-11-2006, 11:48 PM
The issue wasn't so much getting people to sign. It was getting people to get people to sign.

It's easy to sign the petition and puff yourself up and go home and pump the wife and say, "I did something for freedom today."

It's not so easy to walk into a store, hat in hand and ask someone to not only stock your petitions, but sell the idea behind them so folks will sign.

For all the noise made on this forum regarding "rights" and the political process, I was amazed at the dearth of participation in the petition drive.

I guess that these are many of the same people that can't find the time to vote.

xenophobe
07-12-2006, 12:16 AM
What happens when the state constitution runs in conflict with the US Constitution, the supreme law of the land, which takes precedence?

Until the 14th Amendment, the States didn't even have to abide by the US Constitution if they did not want... The 14thA made the states strictly abide to it, unless they followed due process of the law. This is why state bans have never been thrown out of court for being unconstitutional. In cases where there is a conflict, the Supreme Court is in place to determine any final outcome.


I am also opposed to wasting time, effort and money on adding a RKBA clause to the California constitution. Look at the 2nd amendment in the federal constitution: it has done very little good. There is lots of federal gun control law (from machine gun / SBR de-facto bans of the 1930s, through lots of added bureaucracy like FFLs, through import bans, finally to the AWB, which would still be in force if it hadn't expired). One of the reasons you so rarely see the 2nd amendment discussed in supreme court cases is that it seems to be irrelevant to RKBA issues and gun control law.

The 2nd Amendment is what KEEPS machine guns, SBRs, Destructive Devices and all those other weapons legal. Without it, the US Government would have outlawed them completely by now. They are not banned, they are heavily regulated. The 2nd Amendment prevents the Federal government from banning firearms and other weapons outright. The Federal government does not prohibit you from owning these firearms. The State of California is preventing you from owning them.

And with your somewhat anti-gun position on laws, I am not surprised that you would think a State RKBA clause in the Constitution would be a waste of effort.

grammaton76
07-12-2006, 11:44 AM
True, but they are so heavily regulated that even in "free" states, owning them is de-facto impossible (so hard and so expensive that very few people bother with doing so legally. I don't know how many NFA items are legally owned by civilians in other states (I'd guess a total of tens of thousands, for the whole US), but if they were completely outlawed, it would make very little difference.

You'd be surprised.

Read this FAQ - there's a lot of hoops to jump through, but generally if you live in a free state, you can get class-3 toys.

http://www.impactguns.com/store/machineguns_legalities.html

It's not THAT heavily regulated. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if, within 10 years, getting a handgun in California becomes harder than getting a class-3 weapon in a free state.

SemiAutoSam
07-12-2006, 11:56 AM
True, but they are so heavily regulated that even in "free" states, owning them is de-facto impossible (so hard and so expensive that very few people bother with doing so legally. I don't know how many NFA items are legally owned by civilians in other states (I'd guess a total of tens of thousands, for the whole US), but if they were completely outlawed, it would make very little difference.

Then there are things that are completely banned (like the import bans on foreign-made non-sporting arms, in particular the complete ban on Chinese arms). If I take RKBA literally as interpreted by Miller and others, I should be allowed to own any firearm that is suitable for use in a militia. But I can't buy any new Norinco, even though most of their products are highly suitable for use in a militia. I fail to see how this can possibly be reconciled with the 2nd amendment, yet it is.


I disagree here. My position is not anti-gun, rather on the contrary. I think that current gun control laws do little to improve public safety, while going way too far in restricting the rights of gun owners (and the rights of people to even become gun owners), and harassing and limiting gun owners. I can see how we got here: to a democrat, pissing off the NRA and the republicans and the "gun lobby" (whatever that might be) is a great success; it matters little whether it improves public safety or whether it restricts gun rights. To a republican, pleasing the NRA and pissing off the democrats is a great success; it matters little whether it improves public safety or whether it restricts gun rights.

What I don't see is a way to get to laws that are a sensible compromise between public safety (I don't want every gang banger and convicted drug dealer to walk into the nearest gun store and buy a ma deuce and 1000 rounds of 50BMG on belts), while preserving gun rights (forcing people like bwiese or Technical Ted or you to pin their mags on your new AR serves no purpose, other than making the antis feel good that they have pissed of some gun enthusiasts). And I'm willing to throw any existing baggage (even be it the 2nd amendment) overboard if it got us towards better gun rights. But how?

TREE

I was a FFL & SOT in nevada and there are alot more of them in other states

If the average JOE in the free states arent able to buy NFA weapons then what is keeping these SOT"S in business

And in an earlier post about 45 of the 50 states have 2A clauses in their state constitutions.

whats californias problem they have a clause that the peope can protect themselves and their property as I listed in the same past post but its just not spelled out that they can do it with firearms.

AntiBubba 2.1
07-12-2006, 10:35 PM
I was involved in the 2006 petition initiative. It was poorly organized and executed. You can't start to organize when it's time to get sigs; you have to start much sooner.

So, you say, it's a waste of time and might make things worse. I'm curious as to why you think that. I also want to know what you would do to gain RKBA in California, as an alternative. Keep in mind that the NRA shows zero interest in this, probably because of the cost vs the risk (Of course, a truly organized petition group might convince them otherwise).

Please, tell me how it should be done. I really want to know.

xenophobe
07-12-2006, 10:52 PM
True, but they are so heavily regulated that even in "free" states, owning them is de-facto impossible (so hard and so expensive that very few people bother with doing so legally. I don't know how many NFA items are legally owned by civilians in other states (I'd guess a total of tens of thousands, for the whole US), but if they were completely outlawed, it would make very little difference.

There are millions of NFA firearms in the US. Many hundreds of thousands of owners. In most states, buying a NFA weapon is easier than buying a handgun in California. Only the fee is more money and the wait is longer.

Machine guns, Destructive Devices, Sound Suppressors, Short Barrel Rifles and Shotguns, Pen Guns, Flamethrowers... whatever you want, all you have to do is fill out a form and pay some money.


Then there are things that are completely banned (like the import bans on foreign-made non-sporting arms, in particular the complete ban on Chinese arms). If I take RKBA literally as interpreted by Miller and others, I should be allowed to own any firearm that is suitable for use in a militia. But I can't buy any new Norinco, even though most of their products are highly suitable for use in a militia. I fail to see how this can possibly be reconciled with the 2nd amendment, yet it is.


Yes, there is an import ban. There is no ban on currently owned items. They may be freely bought and sold.


I disagree here. My position is not anti-gun, rather on the contrary. I think that current gun control laws do little to improve public safety, while going way too far in restricting the rights of gun owners (and the rights of people to even become gun owners), and harassing and limiting gun owners.


Have you changed your position?
http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showpost.php?p=315431&postcount=9

I like you and you're a nice guy, but I'm sorry, your 'pro-gun' stance scares me.


What I don't see is a way to get to laws that are a sensible compromise between public safety (I don't want every gang banger and convicted drug dealer to walk into the nearest gun store and buy a ma deuce and 1000 rounds of 50BMG on belts), while preserving gun rights (forcing people like bwiese or Technical Ted or you to pin their mags on your new AR serves no purpose, other than making the antis feel good that they have pissed of some gun enthusiasts). And I'm willing to throw any existing baggage (even be it the 2nd amendment) overboard if it got us towards better gun rights. But how?

In most states, you CAN walk into a gun shop, buy a M2 Browning and 1000 rounds on belts. You don't see gangs committing crimes with M2s. Or machine guns, grenade launchers, short barrelled weapons with silencers, which, btw, are legal to own in over 30 states. It just doesn't happen. Restricting them since 1968 has had no impact in their illicit use.

I don't think there is a compromise. You cannot legislate good intentions, people's actions, or keeping criminals from doing illegal things. Murder is banned. It is punishable by prison and capitol punishment. People still commit murder. Laws restricting the possession of items only keeps those who would abide by laws from having them. Prohibition never works.

tenpercentfirearms
07-12-2006, 11:16 PM
Have you changed your position?
http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/s...31&postcount=9

I like you and you're a nice guy, but I'm sorry, your 'pro-gun' stance scares me.LOL. This really is an interesting gun board. On some issues I agree with Treelogger. On some issues we disagree. On some issues I agree with Xenophobe. On some issues we disagree. We really are a pretty broad group of individuals all with the same set of goals really. Freedom and guns.

HOWEVER, looking at that link above and some of the comments that Treelogger made, I really have to agree with Xenophobe here. Treelogger you went a little overboard on that one. Either I am a free citizen who can be trusted to follow the laws or I am a subject. What you are describing in that other thread is definitely the plan of a subject. Having to have government permission to own firearms and being subject to search to see if I am complying. I have an idea. How about I keep and do what I want with my guns whatever the hell I want? Guns are not the problem. Criminals are. I don't want to thread drift too far, but Xenophobe has a great point here. It is hard to take you serious after reading that thread. And I was enjoying your support in other areas. :( I hope you can rethink your positions.

jdberger
07-13-2006, 12:52 AM
Well...............look at that.

Treelogger...have you any idea how long it is going to take to get the cooties off my Garand? ;)

THAT was not a pretty post....

Paladin
07-13-2006, 7:35 AM
Since that wont happen, are there other ways we can spend our time and money?

Yep. Watch this 20 sec animation: http://www.gun-nuttery.com/rtc.php

Next, look at this image of CA: http://www.packing.org/state/california/image.php?stateimage=118 (it's out of date, LA should be "red")

Last, go to www.CaliforniaCCW.org to get the info to do to CA what was done to the USA -- divide and conquer. We can take CA to "virtual" Shall Issue one county at a time. Get everyone/every club/every range that you know in PDO "green counties" to apply, then do the same w/"yellow counties." Esp focus on Orange county -- pop of 3 million, and Carona is pro-CCW. "Billy Jack" over at CA CCW can give you info on how to succeed w/your application. (Don't apply w/o first contacting him because if you get rejected that is a black mark against you on future applications.) Ck the General Discussion thread for ideas on how to advance our cause.