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View Full Version : Is the A2 Flash Hider a Destructive Device?


courteousgavin
07-09-2006, 12:55 PM
Doesn't the standard A2 flash hider double as a grenade launcher? If so, wouldn't this make it a destructive device under PC Section 12301(a)(4)?

I'm not talking about it being illegal because of SB23. The rifle will have a fixed magazine, so the SB 23 grenade launcher ban won't apply.

Section 12301(a)(4) is the section of the law that effects Yugo M59/66 rifles. Does the law only apply to the M59/66 because they also come with grenade sights? Would an A2 flash hider be legal on a fixed mag OLL as long as you didn't also have grenade launching sights installed?

bonjing
07-09-2006, 12:59 PM
not to my knowledge, but then i could be wrong. the A2 is still offered on many/majority of barrels.

it's just a evil feature that makes the owner a more efficient killer (sarcasim)

SemiAutoSam
07-09-2006, 1:09 PM
What GOV agency is saying that it is ?

Dont fix what aint broke

fun2none
07-09-2006, 2:29 PM
Doesn't the standard A2 flash hider double as a grenade launcher? If so, wouldn't this make it a destructive device under PC Section 12301(a)(4)?

I'm not talking about it being illegal because of SB23. The rifle will have a fixed magazine, so the SB 23 grenade launcher ban won't apply.

Section 12301(a)(4) is the section of the law that effects Yugo M59/66 rifles. Does the law only apply to the M59/66 because they also come with grenade sights? Would an A2 flash hider be legal on a fixed mag OLL as long as you didn't also have grenade launching sights installed?

For whatever it's worth, if the muzzle attachment is 22mm in diameter it is capabable of accomodating a NATO spec rifle grenade. From a practical point of view, unless the gas system can be shutoff manually, like a FAL, M14, or Yug M59/66, the grenade won't be going very far unless it's self propelled (i.e. rocket).

I have never heard of the A2 flash hider being considered at grenade launcher since the M203 serves that purpose.

xenophobe
07-09-2006, 3:27 PM
I have never heard of the A2 flash hider being considered at grenade launcher since the M203 serves that purpose.

Yes, the M16A1 and A2 flash hiders are designed to launch grenades.

dhl
07-09-2006, 5:49 PM
If that is correct then aren't the A1/A2 flash-suppressors in the same 'destructive device' boat as the Yugo SKS and the original FAL flash-suppressor/grenade launcher and are illegal?

Are the older AWs that were registered legal with the A1/A2 flash-hiders?

Do you think you can have an FAL built to California 10-round modification and still have the original FAL flash-suppressor/grenade launcher?

Yes, the M16A1 and A2 flash hiders are designed to launch grenades.

ohsmily
07-09-2006, 7:50 PM
If that is correct then aren't the A1/A2 flash-suppressors in the same 'destructive device' boat as the Yugo SKS and the original FAL flash-suppressor/grenade launcher and are illegal?

Are the older AWs that were registered legal with the A1/A2 flash-hiders?

Do you think you can have an FAL built to California 10-round modification and still have the original FAL flash-suppressor/grenade launcher?

The Yugo SKS grenade launching muzzle devices are not considered destructive devices under federal law, so you have a logical disconnect...

C.G.
07-09-2006, 8:10 PM
Do you think you can have an FAL built to California 10-round modification and still have the original FAL flash-suppressor/grenade launcher?

No, you may not.

xenophobe
07-09-2006, 8:27 PM
If that is correct then aren't the A1/A2 flash-suppressors in the same 'destructive device' boat as the Yugo SKS and the original FAL flash-suppressor/grenade launcher and are illegal?

Because California hasn't decided that this particular flash hider was designed to launch a grenade.

I tried searching for pictures, but they're not easy to find. The Marines tested some of these rifle grenades on the M16, but never authorized thier use. Israelis used them.

I have some 80's era Colt literature that shows the M16-A2 with a rifle grenade slipped over the barrel... I'll see if I can dig that up...

This is the only picture online that I can find of the bullet-trap grenade used on an M16... This is an IMI grenade:

http://img134.imageshack.us/img134/2218/2310zo.jpg

xenophobe
07-09-2006, 8:59 PM
Compared to a FAL or M1A flash suppressor, the profile of the A1 and A2 flash suppressor isn't really long enough to hold a rifle launched grenade stable. There's a special retainer spring that's installed between the flash suppressor and barrel like a washer. It has backward swept arms that hold the grenade in place.

Yes, but even Colt was marketing a bullet-trap grenade for the M16A2 back in the late 80's and early 90's. The Marines tested one, and the IDF has used them.

SemiAutoSam
07-09-2006, 9:19 PM
If the little spring is all that makes a flash hider a Gernade launcher would that mean that the Galil 308 ARM is flash hider is a DD

give me a break

The M203 is a bit different story as it has a bore

Are you talking about federal law OR california law.

Below is the california law or at least part of it that deals with DD
http://ag.ca.gov/firearms/dwcl/12301.htm

SemiAutoSam
07-09-2006, 9:49 PM
There may be more elsewhere but this is what I found at the D.O.J. website

FROM SITE BELOW

http://ag.ca.gov/firearms/dwcl/12301.htm


CHAPTER 2.5. DESTRUCTIVE DEVICES

12301. (a) The term "destructive device," as used in this chapter, shall include any of the following weapons:
(1) Any projectile containing any explosive or incendiary material or any other chemical substance, including, but not limited to, that which is commonly known as tracer or incendiary ammunition, except tracer ammunition manufactured for use in shotguns.
(2) Any bomb, grenade, explosive missile, or similar device or any launching device therefor.
(3) Any weapon of a caliber greater than 0.60 caliber which fires fixed ammunition, or any ammunition therefor, other than a shotgun (smooth or rifled bore) conforming to the definition of a "destructive device" found in subsection (b) of Section 479.11 of Title 27 of the Code of Federal Regulations, shotgun ammunition (single projectile or shot), antique rifle, or an antique cannon. For purposes of this section, the term "antique cannon" means any cannon manufactured before January 1, 1899, which has been rendered incapable of firing or for which ammunition is no longer manufactured in the United States and is not readily available in the ordinary channels of commercial trade. The term "antique rifle" means a firearm conforming to the definition of an "antique firearm" in Section 479.11 of Title 27 of the Code of Federal Regulations.
(4) Any rocket, rocket-propelled projectile, or similar device of a diameter greater than 0.60 inch, or any launching device therefor, and any rocket, rocket-propelled projectile, or similar device containing any explosive or incendiary material or any other chemical substance, other than the propellant for that device, except those devices as are designed primarily for emergency or distress signaling purposes.
(5) Any breakable container which contains a flammable liquid with a flashpoint of 150 degrees Fahrenheit or less and has a wick or similar device capable of being ignited, other than a device which is commercially manufactured primarily for the purpose of illumination.
(6) Any sealed device containing dry ice (CO2) or other chemically reactive substances assembled for the purpose of causing an explosion by a chemical reaction.
(b) The term "explosive," as used in this chapter, shall mean any explosive defined in Section 12000 of the Health and Safety Code.

12302. Nothing in this chapter shall prohibit the sale to, purchase by, or possession, transportation, storage, or use of, destructive devices or explosives by:
(a) Any peace officer listed in Section 830.1 or 830.2, or any peace officer in the Department of Justice authorized by the Attorney General, while on duty and acting within the scope and course of his or her employment.
(b) Any member of the Army, Navy, Air Force, or Marine Corps of the United States, or the National Guard, while on duty and acting within the scope and course of his or her employment.
Nothing in this chapter prohibits the sale to, or the purchase, possession, transportation, storage, or use by any person who is a regularly employed and paid officer, employee, or member of a fire department or fire protection or firefighting agency of the federal government, the State of California, a city, county, city and county, district, or other public or municipal corporation or political subdivision of this state, while on duty and acting within the scope and course of his or her employment, of any equipment used by that department or agency in the course of fire suppression.

12303. Any person, firm, or corporation who, within this state, possesses any destructive device, other than fixed ammunition of a caliber greater than .60 caliber, except as provided by this chapter, is guilty of a public offense and upon conviction thereof shall be punished by imprisonment in the county jail for a term not to exceed one year, or in state prison, or by a fine not to exceed ten thousand dollars ($10,000) or by both such fine and imprisonment.

12303.1. Every person who willfully does any of the following is guilty of a felony and is punishable by imprisonment in the state prison for two, four, or six years:
(a) Carries any explosive or destructive device on any vessel, aircraft, car, or other vehicle that transports passengers for hire.
(b) Places or carries any explosive or destructive device, while on board any such vessel, aircraft, car or other vehicle, in any hand baggage, roll, or other container.
(c) Places any explosive or destructive device in any baggage which is later checked with any common carrier.

12303.2. Every person who recklessly or maliciously has in his possession any destructive device or any explosive on a public street or highway, in or near any theater, hall, school, college, church, hotel, other public building, or private habitation, in, on, or near any aircraft, railway passenger train, car, cable road or cable car, vessel engaged in carrying passengers for hire, or other public place ordinarily passed by human beings is guilty of a felony, and shall be punishable by imprisonment in the state prison for a period of two, four, or six years.

12303.3. Every person who possesses, explodes, ignites, or attempts to explode or ignite any destructive device or any explosive with intent to injure, intimidate, or terrify any person, or with any intent to wrongfully injure or destroy any property, is guilty of a felony, and shall be punished by imprisonment in the state prison for a period of three, five, or seven years.

12303.6. Any person, firm or corporation who, within this state, sells, offers for sale, or knowingly transports any destructive device, other than fixed ammunition of a caliber greater than .60 caliber, except as provided by this chapter, is guilty of a felony and is punishable by imprisonment in the state prison for two, three or four years.

12304. Any person, firm or corporation who, within this state, sells, offers for sale, possesses or knowingly transports any fixed ammunition of a caliber greater than .60 caliber, except as provided in this chapter, is guilty of a public offense and upon conviction thereof shall be punished by imprisonment in the county jail for a term not to exceed six months or by a fine not to exceed one thousand dollars ($1,000), or by both such fine and imprisonment.
A second or subsequent conviction shall be punished by imprisonment in the county jail for a term not to exceed one year, or by imprisonment in the state prison, or by a fine not to exceed three thousand dollars ($3,000), or by both such fine and imprisonment.

12305. (a) Every dealer, manufacturer, importer, and exporter of any destructive device, or any motion picture or television studio using destructive devices in the conduct of its business, shall obtain a permit for the conduct of that business from the Department of Justice.
(b) Any person, firm, or corporation not mentioned in subdivision (a) shall obtain a permit from the Department of Justice in order to possess or transport any destructive device. No permit shall be issued to any person who meets any of the following criteria:
(1) Has been convicted of any felony.
(2) Is addicted to the use of any narcotic drug.
(3) Is a person in a class prohibited by Section 8100 or 8103 of the Welfare and Institutions Code or Section 12021 or 12021.1 of this code.
(c) Applications for permits shall be filed in writing, signed by the applicant if an individual, or by a member or officer qualified to sign if the applicant is a firm or corporation, and shall state the name, business in which engaged, business address and a full description of the use to which the destructive devices are to be put.
(d) Applications and permits shall be uniform throughout the state on forms prescribed by the Department of Justice.
(e) Each applicant for a permit shall pay at the time of filing his or her application a fee not to exceed the application processing costs of the Department of Justice. A permit granted pursuant to this article may be renewed one year from the date of issuance, and annually thereafter, upon the filing of a renewal application and the payment of a permit renewal fee not to exceed the application processing costs of the Department of Justice. After the department establishes fees sufficient in amount to cover processing costs, the amount of the fees shall only increase at a rate not to exceed the legislatively approved cost-of-living adjustment for the department.
(f) Except as provided in subdivision (g), the Department of Justice shall, for every person, firm, or corporation to whom a permit is issued pursuant to this article, annually conduct an inspection for security and safe storage purposes, and to reconcile the inventory of destructive devices.
(g) A person, firm, or corporation with an inventory of fewer than five devices that require any Department of Justice permit shall be subject to an inspection for security and safe storage purposes, and to reconcile inventory, once every five years, or more frequently if determined by the department.

courteousgavin
07-12-2006, 11:32 PM
Thanks for all of the replies everyone.

It sounds like the lack of grenade launching sights shown in the picture Xenophobe posted, the lack of that special retaining spring Technical Ted mentioned, and the fact that the A2 hider historically never really caught on as a launching device all help to make a good case that it is not a "destructive device" under California law.

CADOJ would have to declare any firearm with a 22mm OD barrel a destructive device if they followed the 12301(a)(4) definition that strictly. You can probably slip a NATO standard rifle grenade over the barrel of a Ruger 10/22 if you try hard enough. :)

Thanks again.

xenophobe
07-12-2006, 11:55 PM
Funny thing is, the MAS 36/51 has a grenade launcher, but is perfectly legal in California. The Yugo is not.

icormba
07-13-2006, 12:12 PM
Stoooopid california law. Before '89 I used to see hundreds of those silly little springs at California gunshows for a couple of bucks. Since then You can't find them at all.

I've been trying for years to find some of these so called grenades... ;)
no luck.

superhondaz50
07-13-2006, 12:21 PM
Because California hasn't decided that this particular flash hider was designed to launch a grenade.

I tried searching for pictures, but they're not easy to find. The Marines tested some of these rifle grenades on the M16, but never authorized thier use. Israelis used them.

I have some 80's era Colt literature that shows the M16-A2 with a rifle grenade slipped over the barrel... I'll see if I can dig that up...

This is the only picture online that I can find of the bullet-trap grenade used on an M16... This is an IMI grenade:

http://img134.imageshack.us/img134/2218/2310zo.jpg

I also have the same literature from the 80's.

SemiAutoSam
07-13-2006, 12:22 PM
I suppose I should have explained what I ment by what I said.

The strange spelling of stupid

STOOOOPID gets its origins (At least in my family) from an Italian way of saying it In our family and my mother and father in law are 200% Italian and the O is very long. so when they see someone do something real dumb they say as a shortcut.

HOW MANY O'S

As in more O'S equate to more stupid.

onley11
07-13-2006, 1:30 PM
Boy, if the DOJ didn't know before....

By the way there are rifle grenades for sale on the inet for 22mm muzzles. Most use regular grenades clipped in. And no I won't post the link for the DOJ to hassle the seller.

icormba
07-13-2006, 2:14 PM
By the way there are rifle grenades for sale on the inet for 22mm muzzles. Most use regular grenades clipped in. And no I won't post the link for the DOJ to hassle the seller.

Really??? REAL LIVE exploding grenades? or dummy (inert) grenades? :confused: ;)

onley11
07-14-2006, 12:33 AM
Um, what do you have? They come with tennis balls.

Aw heck, since they're inert, I guess I'll post the link.

Link (http://www.bloomautomatic.com/m1a2.html)

Videos of stuff that has a 22 mm socket. From www.bloomautomatic.com

Video 1 (http://www.bloomautomatic.com/launchers.wmv)

Video 2 (http://www.bloomautomatic.com/ow.wmv)

Video 3 (http://www.bloomautomatic.com/israeli.wmv)

BTW I'm pretty sure you can't have this fun stuff, so I'm not suggesting it.
The rifle grenade may be legal to own or may not, but if you have a 22mm muzzle... That just can't be good.:rolleyes: