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View Full Version : HELP where to i buy parts?! Double stack 1911 differances. who made this frame?


benbangui
12-05-2010, 2:25 AM
hey guys, my friend has had a fram and slide for a double stack 1911 forever now. he always says he is gonna put it together since i have known him, but he is really not into guns and it will never actually happen. so, long story short, tonight he proposed to his chick. they are getting married in april and as a wedding present to him, im gonna gonna finish the gun without him knowing about it :D

i have detail striped my 1911 down completely a few times and have done my own bobtail to it. turned out great :)

but i am NOT fermilular with double stack 1911s. can you tell me a little about the differences of parts in the frame?

more importaintly, is there a place that i can buy a "parts kit" for a double stack 1911? i have looked online but have only found kits for single stack. does that mean that all the parts are the same? i cant imagin the trigger being the same since it has to be wider for the magazine... and also the mag release would need to be wider... but thats all i was thinking that would definatly be different...

any help would be appriciated :) thanks guys


here is my own bobtail i did. still have to refinish it. gonna do it in tan. also im gonna cut back under the trigger guard and checker the front of it before i refinish it :)
http://i808.photobucket.com/albums/zz1/benbangui/bobtail/IMG_2054.jpg
http://i808.photobucket.com/albums/zz1/benbangui/bobtail/IMG_2051.jpg

GUNFREAK
12-05-2010, 6:04 AM
Who is the manufacturer?

Is it a Caspian Arms frame and slide? I know they make a high capacity double stack frame. I believe they use their own exclusive type of magazines.

I believe Para Ordinance makes a doulbe stack 1911 too. you can try them.

Nice work on bobtailing your sig. I've always liked that look.

benbangui
12-05-2010, 11:13 AM
not sure on the manufacture. ive only seen it a few times, and i still gotta grab it from him. ive talked to him once already about just giving it to me. so i thinjk im gonna talk him into giving it to me and not tell him im fixing it up for him :) he already told me once that he would give it to me.

im pretty sure i remember the slide saying Llama on it...

benbangui
12-09-2010, 6:36 AM
no help guys?! so far i found out that only the trigger and magazine release are different parts. other then that everything else is the same. is that correct? :)

swifty
12-09-2010, 7:01 AM
no help guys?!


No one knows what you have, no pics, no serial number, no make, no model, no frame material, ramped or unramped, firing pin safety or no firing pin safety...

The correct parts depend on the make and model, double stacks are more proprietary than single stacks. In general, I believe that you are correct in that the trigger and mag catch are the two parts that are different. I would add a magazine to the list of course.

benbangui
12-09-2010, 7:06 AM
yea, i should be getting it soon from my friend, then ill be able to take pics of it...

i was really just hoping it would be as easy as buying a 1911 double stack "parts kit" :) haha

kmca
12-09-2010, 7:07 AM
Really depends on the make of the frame and slide. If it's a Para, most parts are 1911. Only different parts I can think of off hand is the trigger, sear spring and mags. Caspian, different trigger and mags.

benbangui
12-09-2010, 7:09 AM
cool, i should be getting it from him today, find out what the frame is. i know for sure the slide is a cheapy Llama. but i dont recall the frame having any markings... well see

benbangui
12-09-2010, 11:22 PM
please tell me what i need and any opinions on what you think is best would be appriciated :) i know my friend has small hands... so i think he will want the slimist grips as possible....

and whatever you can tell me about the make of the frame... :)


http://i808.photobucket.com/albums/zz1/benbangui/IMG_2205.jpg
http://i808.photobucket.com/albums/zz1/benbangui/IMG_2215.jpg
http://i808.photobucket.com/albums/zz1/benbangui/IMG_2214.jpg
http://i808.photobucket.com/albums/zz1/benbangui/IMG_2210.jpg

benbangui
12-09-2010, 11:23 PM
http://i808.photobucket.com/albums/zz1/benbangui/IMG_2219.jpg
http://i808.photobucket.com/albums/zz1/benbangui/IMG_2220.jpg
http://i808.photobucket.com/albums/zz1/benbangui/IMG_2208.jpg
http://i808.photobucket.com/albums/zz1/benbangui/IMG_2207.jpg
http://i808.photobucket.com/albums/zz1/benbangui/IMG_2217.jpg
http://i808.photobucket.com/albums/zz1/benbangui/IMG_2218.jpg

benbangui
12-09-2010, 11:23 PM
http://i808.photobucket.com/albums/zz1/benbangui/IMG_2216.jpg

bollero
12-10-2010, 3:24 AM
maybe this will help

Llama IX-C: Manufactured from 1994 to 1997. Similar to the Llama IX-A except for the 12-round double column magazine, inspired by the Para-Ordnance .45 calibre pistols. Fitted with special Swartz Safety to prevent accidental discharge when the pistol is dropped. Magazine capacity was later dropped to 10 rounds in late 1994 and several minor changes made to the hammer and safety

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Llama_firearms

benbangui
12-10-2010, 7:01 AM
maybe this will help

Llama IX-C: Manufactured from 1994 to 1997. Similar to the Llama IX-A except for the 12-round double column magazine, inspired by the Para-Ordnance .45 calibre pistols. Fitted with special Swartz Safety to prevent accidental discharge when the pistol is dropped. Magazine capacity was later dropped to 10 rounds in late 1994 and several minor changes made to the hammer and safety

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Llama_firearms

sweet thanks :) yea, i noticed the extra safty on the slide :) should i assume the frame is Llama too? i couldnt find anything when i tried looking up the numbers on it...

brassburnz
12-26-2010, 11:59 AM
It looks like a Para frame, but mine don't have any of the markings that yours has. Not sure what it is. I have a Para gunsmith kit frame and a P-14 LTD.

I don't remember what the mag area of the frame looks like and I don't feel like digging in the safe to take the grips off.

benbangui
12-26-2010, 2:55 PM
It looks like a Para frame, but mine don't have any of the markings that yours has. Not sure what it is. I have a Para gunsmith kit frame and a P-14 LTD.

I don't remember what the mag area of the frame looks like and I don't feel like digging in the safe to take the grips off.

yea, thats been my problem, i havnt been able to find what the numbers on the frame relate to...

*sigh*:(

Jak1
12-26-2010, 3:32 PM
My Llama double stack has identical markings as you have shown above but in different locations. The marks on yours under the grip panels are above the trigger on mine. Might be a Llama frame. Most parts have fit on mine except the trigger, mag release, grips, and the plunger tube.

dstiltner
12-26-2010, 3:32 PM
I just finished up working on my new Para S16. I replaced nearly all of the frame parts. It does look similar and if it is not an actual Para frame it is a clone. The only major differencse I see are the extra holes at the bottom of the grip and the holes for the plunger tube. The plunger tube on mine is part of the frame. They may have staked the plunger tubes in the past.

I can tell you what I know from my experience. The S16 uses the series 80 firing pin block. I replaced my with the C&S TiN coated set which includes the sear and hammer pins. I also installed a Guncrafters aluminum trigger.

I bought a complete 1911 Trigger Group from Fusion Firearms since I can always use the left over parts for something. I have used these sets in a couple of my 1911s without issue.

The sear spring in the set did not work as was mentioned above. The disconnector and hammer strut were too short so I bought the ball head disconnector and extra long hammer stut from EGW and fit both parts. I bought a Fusion mainspring housing but the Para mainspring pin hole in the frame is located closer the mainspring rail channels (dont know the proper term). I ended up buying a mainspring housing from Smith and Alexendar specifically for the Para which required some fitting.

You can PM me if you have any questions. Since noone has said it yet, most drop in parts for the 1911 will require some fitting. My guess is you will have to go through some trial and error to get the right parts and fit.

benbangui
02-05-2011, 12:35 PM
I just finished up working on my new Para S16. I replaced nearly all of the frame parts. It does look similar and if it is not an actual Para frame it is a clone. The only major differencse I see are the extra holes at the bottom of the grip and the holes for the plunger tube. The plunger tube on mine is part of the frame. They may have staked the plunger tubes in the past.

I can tell you what I know from my experience. The S16 uses the series 80 firing pin block. I replaced my with the C&S TiN coated set which includes the sear and hammer pins. I also installed a Guncrafters aluminum trigger.

I bought a complete 1911 Trigger Group from Fusion Firearms since I can always use the left over parts for something. I have used these sets in a couple of my 1911s without issue.

The sear spring in the set did not work as was mentioned above. The disconnector and hammer strut were too short so I bought the ball head disconnector and extra long hammer stut from EGW and fit both parts. I bought a Fusion mainspring housing but the Para mainspring pin hole in the frame is located closer the mainspring rail channels (dont know the proper term). I ended up buying a mainspring housing from Smith and Alexendar specifically for the Para which required some fitting.

You can PM me if you have any questions. Since noone has said it yet, most drop in parts for the 1911 will require some fitting. My guess is you will have to go through some trial and error to get the right parts and fit.

thanks so much! i know this reply is forever later :) but im just comming back to the project again. bought a barrel from a gent here on calguns. now its time to buy all the lil parts :)


i noticed my standard slide release doesnt fit... it looks like the slot where the slide fits threw needs to be cut more open. this is assuming they dont just make a larger slide release already... what do you guys think? :) im gonna take some pictures of the spacific parts im gonna need...

benbangui
02-05-2011, 1:49 PM
so as you can see in these pics. the standard slide release doesnt fit... it needs to be longer? the slide will not even go on. should i just shave down the small metal that is in the track? first pic is what it looks like in my normal 1911. second pic is of the llama:
http://i1196.photobucket.com/albums/aa410/benbenlala/IMG_2552.jpg
http://i1196.photobucket.com/albums/aa410/benbenlala/IMG_2548.jpg


the plunger tube: will i need to find a original llama plunger tuve that screws in? as you can see in my picture of my actual gun, the holes are threaded. the 2 links are to the info on llamas plunger tube and what is common in stock from brownels... will one of those work?
gunreports (http://www.gunreports.com/special_reports/handguns/Vintage-Llama-1911-Pistols172-1.html)
what the have at brownels for plunger tubes... (http://www.brownells.com/.aspx/cid=0/k=plunger+tube/t=P/ksubmit=y/Products/All/search=plunger_tube)
http://i1196.photobucket.com/albums/aa410/benbenlala/IMG_2553.jpg

benbangui
02-05-2011, 1:49 PM
now the barrel spring assembly...
the standard end peice doesnt fit also... the groves in the lama slide run slightly deeper. hard to see in pic, but its maxed out and not going deep enough to go into the grooves of the slide...
http://i1196.photobucket.com/albums/aa410/benbenlala/IMG_2555.jpg



the backstrap.... my standard peice's pin holes dont line up... i can just drill out the pin hole to make it fit? but that seams kinda shabby...
http://i1196.photobucket.com/albums/aa410/benbenlala/IMG_2554.jpg






again, im putting this together as just a fun project for a friend :) he doesnt know but im gonna give it to him as a wedding present :) thanks for your help guys! :D

Tempus
02-08-2011, 10:43 PM
I've actually got a Llama IX-C I'm refurbishing as I type this. There aren't a ton of parts out there but I found a spanish company on gunbroker that has a ton of old llama parts around. They don't really seem to know anything about the models themselves so telling them you have a IX or a double stack will not help too much. Send them pictures or tell them about the part and they will start sending you pics.

I don't have their address on me (its on my work email) but if you are on gunbroker and search for Llama grips you'll find them quickly - they are the only folks in spain.

Merovign
02-09-2011, 8:39 AM
http://forum.m1911.org/showthread.php?t=7552

That's a link to a parts interchangeability list, but not all of the items may be right. For example, the mainspring housing (you called it a "backstrap") is different on the IX-C (double-stack) from other Llamas and 1911s. They made it smaller to reduce grip size.

A good machine shop could duplicate the mainspring housing but you'd need an original or at least detailed dimensions. I'm not sure I'd try to modify a standard one and expect it to work properly.

Please find a parts diagram, even for a 1911, and work off that. If the pictures disappear people have to guess what you mean by "backstrap" (mainspring housing) or "end cap" (barrel bushing).

Some Llama models didn't have a barrel bushing, they had a retained recoil spring and a bull barrel... but that doesn't look like it was very common. Also, it looks like Llama had a real problem with year-to-year dimension changes and they didn't document it very well or at all.

Magazines are still available as far as I can tell. The small Para Ordnance grips may fit since the Llama was a "clone," but no guarantees.

As much as it's an awesome thing you're doing for your friend, the Llama is about the last thing I'd use for a build because of non-standard parts and changes they made over the years.

It might be cheaper to buy another Llama IX-C and strip it for parts, then sell the frame and slide to some other poor sucker to repeat the process. I've seen them go for less than $400, but you would probably have to fit some of the parts anyway.

You'll also need to get or make a special plunger tube, as he holes are in the wrong position to stake one to the frame. These parts, to my knowledge, have not been made since 1997.

Hopefully Tempus' source will have plunger tubes, mainspring housings, and extractors. I'd get a couple tubes and extractors, the tubes don't break often but they're completely unique, and the extractors on Llamas are known for breaking... and also unique!

Best of luck finding your parts.

Tempus
02-09-2011, 10:24 AM
The llama IX-C and IX-D use non-standard grip screw positions. You'll notice the top screw hole is tapped parallel to the magazine release. The para P14/16 grips will not work. The Llama Max II grips will work and there are a few here and there.

Here is the email address:
UNO [ur1@telefonica.net]


I've have to agree with Merovign - if I had an ounce of sense I'd stop this build and get a base 1911 to play with. I'm just too stubborn to quit and I'm having a bit of fun playing around. If you do decide to stop this and want to sell yours for parts, please give me a PM.

benbangui
02-09-2011, 10:30 AM
thanks so much guys!

yea tempus, im actually emailing a few different people on gunbroker right now including UNO. thanks so much! :)

benbangui
02-09-2011, 10:49 AM
if anyones interested in the updated info, UNO on gunbroker has been helping me figure stuff out :) here is the link to the actual Llama web site. its in spanish so a little hard to navigate. but i found my gun on there!!! :)the main page (http://www.colecciondepistolas.com/p_astra.asp?id=13)

and here (http://www.colecciondepistolas.com/modelo1.asp?id=69) is the link to my model. mine is the C-1a Dcha

Tempus
02-09-2011, 12:15 PM
if anyones interested in the updated info, UNO on gunbroker has been helping me figure stuff out :) here is the link to the actual Llama web site. its in spanish so a little hard to navigate. but i found my gun on there!!! :)the main page (http://www.colecciondepistolas.com/p_astra.asp?id=13)

and here (http://www.colecciondepistolas.com/modelo1.asp?id=69) is the link to my model. mine is the C-1a Dcha

Great news. Since my IX-C is parts complete, if you need pics or anything just let me know. Its currently completely stripped so it would be no problem to get shots of any of the parts.

benbangui
02-09-2011, 12:20 PM
Great news. Since my IX-C is parts complete, if you need pics or anything just let me know. Its currently completely stripped so it would be no problem to get shots of any of the parts.

cool thanks :)

but kinda sucky news :( just finished emailing back and forth with UNO and basically all the parts i need is gonna cost me about $300... not including barrel... wich puts it at $400 and mags puts it at $500...

i can buy a completed one on gunbroker for $300-$400...

kinda lame :(

benbangui
02-09-2011, 12:22 PM
but he did have just about everything i needed for anyone else who is interested in building a llama.

but merovign was right... its not really worth it...

Tempus
02-09-2011, 2:48 PM
That sucks man. I've been thinking those same thoughts quite a bit. Besides my stubborn streak, I just really like the way she fits in my hand. Its probably the best feeling handgun I've used. Even the para 14s don't feel quite this right. I've considered getting a few more and building them up nicely just because I like the frame but its really just a dumb idea - I know I can find a frame I like as much that closer to stock 1911 specs.

If you/your buddy wants to sell off what you have send me a PM. I'm sure I could use whatever you've got.

benbangui
02-10-2011, 8:40 AM
That sucks man. I've been thinking those same thoughts quite a bit. Besides my stubborn streak, I just really like the way she fits in my hand. Its probably the best feeling handgun I've used. Even the para 14s don't feel quite this right. I've considered getting a few more and building them up nicely just because I like the frame but its really just a dumb idea - I know I can find a frame I like as much that closer to stock 1911 specs.

If you/your buddy wants to sell off what you have send me a PM. I'm sure I could use whatever you've got.

cool, ill let him know... but it might be a while. it was supprise building it for him so, he doesnt even know i was doing it yet. i have a compensated barrel i had got for it. but im not sure if i wanna sell it yet either :)

ill let you know :)

Tempus
02-10-2011, 9:25 AM
I'm pondering doing some very stupid things like drilling new holes so mine can mount standard P14 grips.

I love a good project.

motorhead
02-11-2011, 1:51 PM
was hoping you needed para advice. i built this from one of the early conversion frames (before para made whole guns)
http://i268.photobucket.com/albums/jj22/neon_tony/P6300061.jpg