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toby
12-04-2010, 3:26 PM
Dutch Hembrug 6.5 cal is there any interest in these things? or are they just another piece of junk?......:shrug: not meaning to offend!.. and I hope this is the right forum to ask in.

gunboat
12-04-2010, 4:57 PM
The Model 1895 Dutch rifle and carbines made at Hembrug and other manufactures are not junk but do not have the romance attached to them as other weapons. During WWII many were used in german service.
The carbine is perhaps the most interesting as the stock is rather unusual looking. It has a portion of the stock covering the left side of the reciever to prevent the weapon catching on the saddle scabbard when drawn.
my ha-penny

toby
12-04-2010, 8:01 PM
Thanks gunboat.

John-Melb
12-05-2010, 7:25 PM
A friend of mine has two of these, converted to a .303 and used as a single shot. They were among the arms carried by Dutch East Indies soldiers who got out to Australia when the japanese arrived.

They were bored out to .303 to hand out to indigenous irregulars fighting the Japanese, pretty sure they were smoothbored (ie. never rifled after being bored out).

Not sure he's ever been brave enough to shoot them.

toby
12-06-2010, 1:30 PM
A friend of mine has two of these, converted to a .303 and used as a single shot. They were among the arms carried by Dutch East Indies soldiers who got out to Australia when the japanese arrived.

They were bored out to .303 to hand out to indigenous irregulars fighting the Japanese, pretty sure they were smoothbored (ie. never rifled after being bored out).

Not sure he's ever been brave enough to shoot them.

Cool! Thanks .. anyone interested in acquiring this gun can pm me....:D

v/dBrink
12-06-2010, 8:04 PM
but do not have the romance attached to them as other weapons.

Romance is in the eye of the beholder, bub!

http://images36.fotki.com/v1352/photos/2/28344/495864/rf3-vi.jpg

Mine is one of the 1940 rifle conversion program. Some of them escaped having a handguard as 1940 was not a good year overall in the Neatherlands. 1940 was the year they were invaded an occupied for 5 years by the nazi pondscum. The crown/W is for Queen Wilhemijna.

http://images24.fotki.com/v830/photos/2/28344/495864/cart1-vi.jpg

http://images24.fotki.com/v802/photos/2/28344/495864/siderail-vi.jpg

You'll notice the Dutch museum has examples just like mine sans the handguard. Of the 5 variations of Dutch carbines mine is the No.5.

http://www.collectie.legermuseum.nl/strategion/strategion/i004810.html

Translated from the Dutch museum website:

Introduced in 1938 due to a shortage of carbines in the motorised and light artillery regiments. Due to a surplus of rifles available, these carbines were made from rifles. Later mixed parts were used. The most important identifying features are the filled rifle sling emplacements and the front sling soldered to the muzzle band. Production of around 36,000. The two examples shown differ from each other by one having a handguard, the other not. Both have the acceptence stamp of 1940.

http://images24.fotki.com/v802/photos/2/28344/495864/upperband3-vi.jpg

http://images30.fotki.com/v44/photos/2/28344/495864/upperband4-vi.jpg

Pay attention: There have been reports, long ago, of sabotaged rifles that had holes drilled into the barrel under the handguard to cause ~discomfort~ to the Japanese invaders of Dutch Indonesia. What will happen is the handguard will be blown to bits and possibly cause eye damage or eye loss. Always disassemble these Dutch carbines and inspect for such sabotage.

As I understand it, those Dutch carbines that are now .303 British were those left behind in Indonesia to be used by native police. They also had muzzle breaks installed. The rimmed 6.5x53 Dutch cartridge can be made from .303 British cartridge cases.

The Dutch 1895 Mannlicher is actually a 1893 model. Romania also used this 1893 Mannlicher rifle in caliber 6.5x53mm. This is not the same as the 6.5x54 Mannlicher-Schoenaur cartridge. They are very nice rifles to shoulder and feel very comfortable. I'm not so hot on carbines overall as I just prefer long rifles with 29" barrels.

My great uncle Abram Johannes was in the Dutch East Indies Army 1896-1906.

gunboat
12-06-2010, 11:17 PM
Since these carbines were made in 40 and the Dutch capitulated in may after 5 days resistance the armory must have been very busy in early 40 or they were finished for the hun. -- bub

John-Melb
12-07-2010, 2:09 AM
v/dbrink, sorry, my stuff-up. I'm aware of the Indonesian carbines in .303, they've got a large flash suppressor on them. My friends rifles are rifles, not the Police issue carbines.

Found this, hope it's of interest
303 Model 1895 DUTCH MANNLICHER... The Australian Conversions from notes by Maj. E.J. Millett
Australian military rifle collectors of long standing have heard of these .303 conversions years ago. To further tantalise us, the occasional barrelled action would turn up, substantiating rumours to a certain extent. But never a complete specimen or official documentation. Rumours nominated SAF Lithgow as the place of conversion, it was supposed that the whole shipment was sunk en route to the Dutch East Indies, or maybe captured on arrival and destroyed or scrapped.
Ted Millett wrote: 'I have always wished to record the facts as I recall them, of a little known effort by Australia to assist the Royal Netherlands Army in the Dutch East Indies, prior to December 1941. Not having any material evidence, I have been reluctant to do this until now, as a result of a recent but vital discovery at the Small Arms Factory, Lithgow. I have decided to tell what I can remember, after some fifty years.
'With the fall of France and the occupation of Holland by Germany in mid-1940, the colonial possessions of these Powers experienced severe logistics problems, especially in the supply of small arms and ammunition. Britain was in no position to assist as she was desperately trying to make good the losses suffered at Dunkirk and conduct a mid-East campaign. In Australia the position was serious, our entire small arms program was directed to supplying the 2nd A.I.F. and assisting in the re-equipping of the British forces in England, to the extent that all mobilization reserves of small arms had been used, including the shipment to Britain of salvaged rifles from the battlefields of the Great War, which had remained in store untouched for 20 years. S.A.F. Lithgow was in the midst of an expansion program for the supply of rifles and M.G.'s, but at this time production was far below requirements.
'Thus the Royal Netherlands Army Command in the Dutch East Indies could not look to an immediate small arms supply from Australia, so it was decided to send 2,000 to 4,000 Mod. 1895 Dutch 6.5mm Mannlicher long rifles to Australia for conversion to accept the 7.7mmR Dutch round which was identical to the British .303 Mk VII being manufactured in Australia. The 7.7mmR Dutch round was in limited use in the Netherlands East Indies by the Royal Netherlands Air Force in some aircraft armament.
'About mid-1941, the consignment of Dutch Mannlichers arrived in Sydney and were taken to Australian Army Ordnance, Eastern Command workshop at Paddington, Sydney, where they were stripped, barrels removed and sent to Lithgow for re-chambering, re-boring and rifling to accept the .303 Mk VII round. As much work as possible was carried out by the Australian Army workshops, to reduce the load on the Small Arms Factory and permit concentration on the urgent expansion program.
'To speed up the conversion, it was further decided that the original Mannlicher magazine system should be retained even though it was a tight fit to load five .303 Mk VII rounds into the Mannlicher clip. The British .303 charger containing five rounds was used only to guide the rounds into the magazine, the charger being released when the last round was loaded from it. On the Mannlicher system, the clip was loaded into the magazine with the five rounds, in fact becoming part of the magazine until the last round was loaded out, when the clip dropped out of the bottom of the magazine. Apart from the tight fit of the .303 Mk VII British rounds in the Mannlicher clips, the magazine functioned very well.
'The converted barrels were returned to the Army workshops where the rifles were re-assembled and re-sighted for the .303 Mk VII British ammunition, the conversion being complete.
'The consignment of rifles was loaded on a freighter that sailed from Sydney in October or November 1941, together with a supply of Australian made .303 Mk VII ammunition, all consigned to the Royal Netherlands Army Headquarters at Surabaya, Dutch East Indies. Suffice to say that the freighter was never heard of again, presumed lost in northern waters as a result of enemy action. And unfortunately, no sample rifles were retained in Australia for reference purposes.
'The only person connected with the project, who I can recall by name, was a Captain Brooke, a Great War Imperial Army officer who had been recalled from the Reserve of Officers and attached to the Australian Army Ordnance workshops in Paddington, Sydney. He supervised the Sydney end of the project.
'As previously stated, I was prompted to write this article due to important evidence coming to light recently at SAF Lithgow, and in this regard I wish to thank Ray Leggatt, a senior technical officer at the factory who identified, when sorting out obsolete tooling, re-chambering tools for the Dutch Mannlichers.'
Mathieu Willemsen, Curator of the Royal Netherlands Army and Arms Museum advises that a total list of Dutch Armament in the East Indies ca. 1948 makes mention of 1,000 Mannlicher rifles and 500 Mannlicher carbines in calibre 7.7mm (.303 British). This mention is likely to have been the Lithgow converted Mannlichers. Because none had ever been found, we had considered that they may have been sunk by enemy activity en route to the Dutch East Indies. It may well be that they did reach their destination after all.
Should any other readers be in a position to supply further details, we would be most interested to hear from them. We should also mention that in about 1985, small quantities of Dutch M97 carbines have been imported by arms dealers, converted from 6.5mm Dutch to .303 British. These were converted in Indonesia in post-WW2 years and due to their short barrels, were fitted with flash eliminators. They have no relation to the Australian wartime conversion.

v/dBrink
12-07-2010, 5:13 PM
or they were finished for the hun. -- bub

Bite your tongue.

The Germans starved to death thousands of Dutch citizens. Hitler bombed Rotterdam into submission as a token of his esteem for his cousins.

What the Dutch did for the Germans is blow up petroleum pipe lines going from Germany into Belgium and France. The English dropped explosives and weapons into Holland at nighttime into Dutch lakes.

What Hitler did to Rotterdam:
http://www.google.com/images?num=30&hl=en&safe=off&q=rotterdam%20german%20bombing&um=1&ie=UTF-8&source=og&sa=N&tab=wi&biw=1105&bih=509

v/dBrink
12-07-2010, 5:24 PM
We should also mention that in about 1985, small quantities of Dutch M97 carbines have been imported by arms dealers, converted from 6.5mm Dutch to .303 British. These were converted in Indonesia in post-WW2 years and due to their short barrels, were fitted with flash eliminators. They have no relation to the Australian wartime conversion.

My information was based on this postscript. The "flash eliminators" were muzzle breaks. The .303 Brit in the Dutch carbine was rather brutal on the shoulder. The Indonesians are not of a large stout build typically.

Thanks for the information, John. It does add to the story overall.

Geez... I know the guy who owns this one.. or did own it...... "the date 1952".
http://www.angelfire.com/realm/cruffler/Pages/indonesian_m95_dutch_carbine.htm

An old offering from Empire Arms:
http://www.empirearms.com/4-003610.jpg

INDONESIAN Model 1895 Mannlicher bolt-action infantry rifle # 4-003610 (.303 British) mfg. by Hembrug arsenal early in the 20th Century as a Dutch long-rifle in 6.5x53R, reconfigured in 1954 to chamber .303 British cartridges in what used to be the Dutch East Indies. Excellent condition with 98% bluing having all-matching numbers and a minty mirror-bore, Indonesian 5-pointed star having been ground-off (as usual) from both left side of receiver and top of barrel-shank. Buttstock has arsenal-patch at heel but is otherwise quite nice though the wood has been recently refinished and has a Jungle-carbine type of Rubber buttplate. Rear-sight is unusual with an express-sight arrangement (calibrated for 200 and 600 meters). The long-rifles of this series are quite scarce, the carbines (with attached muzzle-breaks) quite common. PHOTOS . . . $425. C&R SOLD