PDA

View Full Version : Muzzle brake or Flash hider??


Santa Cruz Armory
07-07-2006, 9:03 PM
Ok ! so I am finishing up a detatchable mag Monster man grip, fixed stock, build. The question is... what is REALLY a brake? I want to be legal at the range
and not be "the test case" (tinfoil hat on :) )

I ordered two from Midway and they advertise them as such but...here's a couple pics, whats the REAL difference?

The two together are the ones from Midway and the one on the barrel is a standard A2 flash hider (yea, yea, I know its dirty!)

Oh, this brings up another question, whats the easiest way to remove the flash hider?? I can't get it to budge!


http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e346/BLFD1/91bfa0a2.jpg
http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e346/BLFD1/4d011f2e.jpg

Charliegone
07-07-2006, 9:16 PM
If it opens up with slots or has cone shape most likely it is a flash hider. FH's also redirect the flash from your view (no slot on top.) Hence the name flash hider. Muzzle brakes do not do that and instead redirect gas for muzzle stability and cannot hide flash, just mainly control the muzzle rise.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muzzle_brake

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flash_hider

by the way those two on the bottom are MB's.

blacklisted
07-07-2006, 9:26 PM
Usually the hole in a muzzle brake is slightly larger than the bore of the rifle, but a flash supressor is more of an open chamber.

Charliegone
07-07-2006, 9:30 PM
Also...I just remembered...in California..anything that hides flash is considered a flash hider...although I've never really seen a advertised muzzle brake hide flash but... who knows.

Wulf
07-07-2006, 9:36 PM
More uninformed nonsense from DOJ...... Muzzle flash is 95% a function of the poweder in the case and the length of the barrel and about 5% what's hanging on the end of the barrel.

creampuff
07-07-2006, 10:00 PM
Oh, this brings up another question, whats the easiest way to remove the flash hider?? I can't get it to budge!

The flashhider on my CMMG upper was torqued on pretty tight. I ended buying a barrel vise, and clamped it onto my bench vise. You can purchase one at midway:

http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpage.exe/showproduct?saleitemid=372329

I have heard other people have used two wooden blocks , with the middle drilled out to accommodate for the diameter of the barrel. I wouldn't use a receiver vise, as the amount of torque neccessary to take the FH off could end up canting your barrel off the receiver.

tenpercentfirearms
07-07-2006, 10:50 PM
Getting that thing in a vice is the best way. Once you do that then a big crecent wrench or the AR15 armorer's tool should do it without too much problems.

Santa Cruz Armory
07-08-2006, 12:32 AM
If it opens up with slots or has cone shape most likely it is a flash hider. FH's also redirect the flash from your view (no slot on top.) Hence the name flash hider. Muzzle brakes do not do that and instead redirect gas for muzzle stability and cannot hide flash, just mainly control the muzzle rise.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muzzle_brake

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flash_hider

by the way those two on the bottom are MB's.

Thanks for the info...The one that is on it now only has slots on the top...? does that make it a brake and not a flash hider?:confused:

leelaw
07-08-2006, 12:37 AM
Thanks for the info...The one that is on it now only has slots on the top...? does that make it a brake and not a flash hider?:confused:

It sounds like he gave an over simpolification. Tons of flash hiders have slots on the top, including the two most popular ones: the Phantom and Vortex.

The one on there is a "birdcage" flash hider - it is pretty mediocre at hiding/redirecting the flash, and it has the bottom of it without vents so it won't kick up dust if you're shooting prone.

AxonGap
07-08-2006, 1:50 AM
Here are two alternatives for a flash hider. One is a DPMS Branson comp/brake (if your looking for the A2 birdcage look). The second is the popular YHM Phantom Brake (my favorite). The YHM is good to go and not considered flash hider, I don't know about the Branson.

superhondaz50
07-08-2006, 9:50 AM
I bought a muzzle brake like the one you got from midway but ended up taking it off because I was leary of it. First it is sold as a "muzzle brake" but has an open end. second it has the exact same dimensions as the standard A2 hider, which has the 22mm diameter and 44/45mm length (for launchiong grenades), so I dont know if that muzzle brake is considered a grenade launcher too.

Santa Cruz Armory
07-08-2006, 12:33 PM
Would I have a legal leg to stand on if I had this invoice showing that I had purchased thse with the intent to purchase a "muzzle brake"?:confused:

http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e346/BLFD1/IMG_0255.jpg

Satex
07-08-2006, 2:14 PM
The law considers anything that reduces the flash to be a flash hider. So if a muzzle break reduces the flash by 0.001%, its a flash hider! I would love to see the mil-spec folks chew this "intelligent" criteria up! To make things more complicated, there is no accepted standard by which to measure how well a particular device hides the flash and quantify that into a real number [%].
This is one reason for the famous DA vs DOJ law suit that will continue in January.
Since I am in the same boat, I follow two rules:
1) My muzzle break exit hole should not be much larger than the diameter - i.e. no intent of gas expansion (and cooling) to reduce a flash
2) I will only purchase a brake that is documented everywhere including the mfg's catalog and receipt that I purchased a muzzle break.
I see the two above items as the best defense against frivolous flash hider claims.

AxonGap
07-08-2006, 2:30 PM
I bought a muzzle brake like the one you got from midway but ended up taking it off because I was leary of it. First it is sold as a "muzzle brake" but has an open end. second it has the exact same dimensions as the standard A2 hider, which has the 22mm diameter and 44/45mm length (for launchiong grenades), so I dont know if that muzzle brake is considered a grenade launcher too.

Capable to accept a grenade launcher (along w/ a threaded muzzle) was part of the Clinton Anti-Crime Bill that sunsetted in 2004. Ca law does not have that as a feature that constitutes an AW. The grenade launcher itself is the banned feature. Check out the YHM Phantom comp, DD's Ranch has the non aggresive front end version for sale. The one I have posted is the CQB version. You can also get them at the source; http://www.yankeehillmachine.com/store/muzzle.html

PLINK
07-08-2006, 3:06 PM
Capable to accept a grenade launcher (along w/ a threaded muzzle) was part of the Clinton Anti-Crime Bill that sunsetted in 2004. Ca law does not have that as a feature that constitutes an AW. The grenade launcher itself is the banned feature. Check out the YHM Phantom comp, DD's Ranch has the non aggresive front end version for sale. The one I have posted is the CQB version. You can also get them at the source; http://www.yankeehillmachine.com/store/muzzle.html

Where did you see this brake on DD's web site? I can't find it.

Charliegone
07-08-2006, 3:29 PM
This is what the DOJ says..

http://www.ag.ca.gov/firearms/regs/fsor.htm#978-20

in other words anything that hides flash from your field of vision OR has significant "flash hiding" is considered a flash hider.

HillBilly
07-09-2006, 9:43 AM
I am convinced that this guy is the DOJ employee making profound determinations, such as how much more deadly a rifle is when your muzzle flash is reduced by 20%...and why poopie is nice...

http://www.geocities.com/aniupload/retard.jpg

Thank God they are there to protect us.

AxonGap
07-10-2006, 6:38 AM
Where did you see this brake on DD's web site? I can't find it.

Oops, sorry! It's Coldwar Shooters that has the new brake http://www.coldwarshooters.net

Mr.RoDiN
07-10-2006, 3:12 PM
My question is do you guys think LEO would actually know the difference between a muzzle break and a flash hider?

sac7000
07-10-2006, 3:40 PM
My question is do you guys think LEO would actually know the difference between a muzzle break and a flash hider?

Only if he was an experienced leo who has personal knowledge of such items. I don't think the average leo could make a correct decision in the field. I'd think a leo would be more interested whether or not the rifle could be used in full auto mode.

Fate
07-10-2006, 5:54 PM
My question is do you guys think LEO would actually know the difference between a muzzle break and a flash hider?

Well, neither are defining "features" of an AW. The listed feature is "Flash Suppressor." And reading the definition of a "flash suppressor", doesn't give me any confidence that a LEO wouldn't have you in the squad car because he thinks (like many here) that "flash hiders" are AW features or if he feels your muzzle break is a flash suppressor.

Reread 978.20b

"Thus, "flash hiders" are flash suppressors only if they reduce or redirect flash from the shooter's field of vision. Conversely, "compensators" and "muzzle brakes" are not flash suppressors only if they do not reduce or redirect flash from the shooter's field of vision."

Charliegone
07-10-2006, 9:00 PM
Well, neither are defining "features" of an AW. The listed feature is "Flash Suppressor." And reading the definition of a "flash suppressor", doesn't give me any confidence that a LEO wouldn't have you in the squad car because he thinks (like many here) that "flash hiders" are AW features or if he feels your muzzle break is a flash suppressor.

Reread 978.20b

"Thus, "flash hiders" are flash suppressors only if they reduce or redirect flash from the shooter's field of vision. Conversely, "compensators" and "muzzle brakes" are not flash suppressors only if they do not reduce or redirect flash from the shooter's field of vision."

If you guys are still having doubt...look at this and see if you can tell the difference between these hk-91 muzzle devices. One is a flashy and the other isn't for obvious reasons.

http://www.investmentgradefirearms.com/igfproducts.htm

JWI
07-17-2006, 11:23 AM
In order to remove the A2 flash hider, what direction should you turn it? In other words, is it threaded in the opposite direction so that the spin imparted from the bullet does not loosen it? Do you still turn it counter-clockwise like an ordinary screw?

Satex
07-17-2006, 11:33 AM
In order to remove the A2 flash hider, what direction should you turn it? In other words, is it threaded in the opposite direction so that the spin imparted from the bullet does not loosen it? Do you still turn it counter-clockwise like an ordinary screw?

It is a normal thread. I.e. if you clamp the rifle down and you are looking at the flash hider from the stock end, the you need to turn the flash hider clock wise to undo it.

unfaded
07-17-2006, 1:35 PM
If you have a ar that doesnt have a detachable mag you can have a flash hider on it in California correct?

Just wondering because I am planning on getting a complete bushmaster upper 16'' with a flash hider (that is not permanent). Is this legal in cali?

AxonGap
07-17-2006, 1:59 PM
If you have a ar that doesnt have a detachable mag you can have a flash hider on it in California correct?

Just wondering because I am planning on getting a complete bushmaster upper 16'' with a flash hider (that is not permanent). Is this legal in cali?

If you are ordering it from Bushmaster and you think you might want to go gripless in the near future, you can ask them to replace the A2 birdcage flash suppressor w/ an “Izzy” Brake (not Izzy Flash Hider) or an AK style brake (someone correct me if the AK brake is considered a flash hider).

Charliegone
07-17-2006, 7:18 PM
If you are ordering it from Bushmaster and you think you might want to go gripless in the near future, you can ask them to replace the A2 birdcage flash suppressor w/ an “Izzy” Brake (not Izzy Flash Hider) or an AK style brake (someone correct me if the AK brake is considered a flash hider).

Looking at the pic on their website, I doesn't look like a flashy to me. If its BATF approved than its even better.:D