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John S
07-07-2006, 7:34 PM
Sense all the treads have disappeared is this too much too ask?

Is Ben ok, or is he in the poky?

Creeping Incrementalism
07-08-2006, 9:43 AM
Is it just me, or did most of this thread get deleted overnight?

John S
07-08-2006, 2:30 PM
It happens all the time on this site.

I have posted at least 30 times but look at my overall post count? :confused:

Creeping Incrementalism
07-08-2006, 4:50 PM
lol
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Matt640h
07-09-2006, 9:21 AM
mine got deleted last week, same subject

anyone heard from Ben lately?

AirborneStranger
07-09-2006, 11:24 AM
Must be a touchy subject :confused:

Maybe the lowers will not be returned, and Ben just doesn't want to break the bad news.

gose
07-09-2006, 12:49 PM
Must be a touchy subject :confused:

Maybe the lowers will not be returned, and Ben just doesn't want to break the bad news.

Since its an ongoing legal battle the parties involved don't want public discussions about it, please respect that...

Creeping Incrementalism
07-11-2006, 6:40 PM
Regarding the air of silent mystery surrounding the topic, maybe it's a need to know basis restricted to those who have something at stake. If there is a lawsuit or case active, then the last thing attorney's want is their client, or clients commenting on, or discussing the case in public.

Well, there's only one person here who can say what's going on with the lawsuit. So it follows that he's deleting his own comments...

artherd
07-11-2006, 10:46 PM
Hi all, at the advice of my attorney, and since it is a known fact that DOJ reads this board, I have decided to voulentarily pull all GB related posts untill the issue is resolved.

As there is an ongoing legal matter involved, I cannot comment much furthur, except to say that I am confident an amnicable settlement will be reached very soon, and that all parties will follow CA and federal law.

grammaton76
07-12-2006, 11:32 AM
Hi all, at the advice of my attorney, and since it is a known fact that DOJ reads this board, I have decided to voulentarily pull all GB related posts untill the issue is resolved.

Does this mean you'd like any new GB posts deleted, and the post authors PM'ed with a link to your message here?

Just wondering, since every now and then I spot some new ones.

1911_sfca
07-12-2006, 12:14 PM
Mipiltas GB update?

Don't worry, the lowers are coming back Real Soon Now™.

tpliquid1
07-12-2006, 2:10 PM
oh man! cant wait. ig o my parts kit all ready!!!

artherd
07-13-2006, 6:57 PM
Does this mean you'd like any new GB posts deleted, and the post authors PM'ed with a link to your message here?

Just wondering, since every now and then I spot some new ones.
Heck yes, that'd be fantastic! :) I will try to do the same, but have been pretty busy with work as of late, and as part of my job I can be out of touch for weeks at a time (test flights.)

atek3
07-14-2006, 2:42 PM
Hah. I'm moving to NH next month, I'll probably just buy a new lower once I get to NH and let the ^&#$##s at cal DOJ keep my lower.

atek3

grammaton76
07-14-2006, 2:52 PM
Hah. I'm moving to NH next month, I'll probably just buy a new lower once I get to NH and let the ^&#$##s at cal DOJ keep my lower.

Hey, don't forget to say hi to EricCartmanR1 as you pass him on your way over there!

ivanimal
07-19-2006, 12:46 AM
Hah. I'm moving to NH next month, I'll probably just buy a new lower once I get to NH and let the ^&#$##s at cal DOJ keep my lower.

atek3


Flake.:D

loser:p

let us know how the air of freedom smells.

atek3
07-19-2006, 9:14 AM
Flake.:D

loser:p

let us know how the air of freedom smells.

Roger :)

atek3

tpliquid1
07-21-2006, 12:05 PM
i hope we get our stuff by end of aug!!!

GW
07-21-2006, 1:10 PM
That would be swell if it happens

John S
07-21-2006, 5:13 PM
have been pretty busy with work as of late, and as part of my job I can be out of touch for weeks at a time (test flights.)

I sure hope that your team of lawyers can contact you?;)

GW
08-03-2006, 10:55 AM
Now that its August, has anyone heard anything?

Creeping Incrementalism
08-03-2006, 4:53 PM
(sound of dripping faucet echoing of walls)

John S
08-03-2006, 5:57 PM
http://www.welovetheiraqiinformationminister.com/images/07-minister.jpg

We have won! Your Lowers will be returned very soon.:D

capitol
08-03-2006, 6:06 PM
LOL thats funny.

I feel sorry for the people that are in this mess though.

m1aowner
08-04-2006, 12:17 AM
It's been so long now, sometimes I forget that I'm supposed to have more lowers in my hands.

1911_sfca
08-04-2006, 12:52 PM
We have won! Your Lowers will be returned very soon.:D

Hahahaa...

GW
08-12-2006, 12:06 AM
Is there any news?

Fjold
08-12-2006, 8:24 AM
I know that there are legal issues involved but I would think that private messages directly to the people involved telling them that something is happening or that the active parties are waiting for a ruling, etc, should be made.

Boarding-Team-Leader
08-12-2006, 1:04 PM
I will stay faithful to my lower as long as I never see a post stating that they will be returned in "Two More Weeks"!!!!:D

artherd
08-12-2006, 1:17 PM
Sorry guys, I would love to but I just can't comment at this time. All I can offer is that I expect DOJ to return my 2 lowers as promised when the issue is fully settled.
EDIT: TWO WEEKS! :D

Creeping Incrementalism
08-12-2006, 8:25 PM
All I can offer is that I expect DOJ to return my 2 lowers as promised when the issue is fully settled.

And as for the other 217?

artherd
08-12-2006, 10:36 PM
And as for the other 217?
Since they most certinly are not mine nor have they ever been, and since I did not sell them but rather an FFL did, you would have to ask DOJ directly. However I would hope that the answer would be the same ;)

7.62MM
08-13-2006, 4:33 PM
I will stay faithful to my lower as long as I never see a post stating that they will be returned in "Two More Weeks"!!!!:D

How aboul 14 days then ?:D

TT2
08-28-2006, 6:57 AM
Sorry guys, I would love to but I just can't comment at this time. All I can offer is that I expect DOJ to return my 2 lowers as promised when the issue is fully settled.
EDIT: TWO WEEKS! :D
Any Updates??

artherd
08-28-2006, 10:08 AM
Any Updates??
Sorry but no. I would call/write/have-your-attorney-write DOJ.

6172crew
08-28-2006, 10:36 AM
Has anyone except Ben wrote the DOJ and got a response back?:confused:

What could holding 217 lowers have to do with anything except punishing law abiding citizens.

tpliquid1
08-28-2006, 1:55 PM
Has anyone except Ben wrote the DOJ and got a response back?:confused:

What could holding 217 lowers have to do with anything except punishing law abiding citizens.

nope. i plan to wait for authord to get them back for me.

artherd
08-28-2006, 10:29 PM
nope. i plan to wait for authord to get them back for me.
I will do my best guys, but I stand a much better chance of success with your help. Call/write/attorney-write the DOJ and tell them what you think of their holding your personal property illegally and without due process.

duraglock
08-28-2006, 10:32 PM
ben who should we contact as i would like to get some info so i can send in a letter to them asking what the deal is with these lowers. if you have a poc that you sent your letter to i would like to get working on getting my lowers back also.

Kalbi
08-28-2006, 11:09 PM
Currently I am just checking back here on the messageboards every now and then to see if I can pick up my lowers.

I know nothing of lawyers and don't feel that I have the time/money to get one.

I am simply hoping and praying for the best.

Keep up a good fight Ben! And thanks.

1911_sfca
08-28-2006, 11:37 PM
Currently I am just checking back here on the messageboards every now and then to see if I can pick up my lowers.

I know nothing of lawyers and don't feel that I have the time/money to get one.

I am simply hoping and praying for the best.

Keep up a good fight Ben! And thanks.

Keep checking back. They should be released in about 2 weeks.

Fjold
08-29-2006, 8:53 AM
Whatever happened to: "I'm 99% confident that all the lowers will be returned soon"?

John S
08-29-2006, 5:54 PM
http://www.welovetheiraqiinformationminister.com/images/wirq13.jpeg

WHAT?

Do you mean to tell me that you guys don't have a team of Lawyers at your beckons call?

:rolleyes:

gose
08-29-2006, 7:17 PM
Whatever happened to: "I'm 99% confident that all the lowers will be returned soon"?

He didn't say 100%, so I guess the 1% happened ;)

DSA_FAL
08-29-2006, 7:18 PM
I think it's safe to say at this point the group buy people will never see their lowers and that they're out the money. I'd love to be proven wrong but there's no evidence that these lowers will ever be given back.

Creeping Incrementalism
08-29-2006, 9:20 PM
I'd bet the DOJ will just try to hang on to them as long as possible, so that as many owners as possibly will forget about it and move on, before making them available to be claimed. Then they'll give you a week before they are melted down.

thmpr
08-29-2006, 9:36 PM
if its not Ben's lower or the DOJ's and it truly belongs to the person stated on the 4473 form wouldnt it be that person's responsibilty to actively get it back? The DOJ, by law, can not deny responding to your rebuttal letter or claim. Just my two cents.... I would be pissed as well but not to the person/s who started the GB sale since they placed their butt on the line as well as you did.

C.G.
08-29-2006, 11:59 PM
if its not Ben's lower or the DOJ's and it truly belongs to the person stated on the 4473 form wouldnt it be that person's responsibilty to actively get it back? The DOJ, by law, can not deny responding to your rebuttal letter or claim. Just my two cents.... I would be pissed as well but not to the person/s who started the GB sale since they placed their butt on the line as well as you did.

Exactly.:)

1911_sfca
08-30-2006, 12:06 PM
The DOJ, by law, can not deny responding to your rebuttal letter or claim.

Their response is, and has been, "They are being held as evidence as part of an ongoing investigation."

The other part of their response is, and has been, "Don't expect to see them again."

tpliquid1
08-30-2006, 12:13 PM
2 weeks is almost up.

restless
08-30-2006, 12:34 PM
2 weeks is almost up.

It's been two weeks for seven months! What can DOJ possibly be investigating??? I know the wheels of justice turn slowly, but come on...this is ridiculous.

thmpr
08-30-2006, 12:55 PM
Their response is, and has been, "They are being held as evidence as part of an ongoing investigation."

The other part of their response is, and has been, "Don't expect to see them again."


That's where I would hire a lawyer for my next directive. Is it worth it? I think from this point, it is a matter of principle than the cost. But I would not place the blame on the coordinators of the group buy.
Not to step on any toes here, but I would take it upon myself to get it back.

artherd
08-30-2006, 5:10 PM
I think it's safe to say at this point the group buy people will never see their lowers and that they're out the money. I'd love to be proven wrong but there's no evidence that these lowers will ever be given back.
Here's some evidence in writing that DOJ will return the lowers.

http://cdglobal.net/gun/DOJ-reply-to-siezure1-DISTRIBUTE.jpg

Remenber guys, DOJ wants to keep these bad. Real bad. They're offended that you want to buy OLLs at all, and they want you to give up on your's.

artherd
08-30-2006, 5:12 PM
That's where I would hire a lawyer for my next directive. Is it worth it? I think from this point, it is a matter of principle than the cost. But I would not place the blame on the coordinators of the group buy.
Not to step on any toes here, but I would take it upon myself to get it back.
Exactly. I've spent $thousands to get my $500 worth of lowers back. The monetary cost is not an issue to me, the principle of the state of california stealing my property is at issue.

artherd
08-30-2006, 5:12 PM
Their response is, and has been, "They are being held as evidence as part of an ongoing investigation."

They can actually do this, so long as there is a real investigation... Draw your own conclusions there.

The other part of their response is, and has been, "Don't expect to see them again."
That is not legal, DOJ may not rob you of your property.

I am working on getting them back, but realize also that DOJ wants to keep these as long as they can, I belive out of pure spite. This is the same as calling up out of state OLL makers and telling them "Well, it's TECHNICALLY legal to sell these in California, but WE DON'T LIKE IT, so we're going to obtusely threaten you untill you are too scared to do it."

DOJ will have to follow the law one day, as for when they decicde to do so, I do not have a crystal ball.

I fully expect to see my 2 lowers again, and relatively soon (though I would not hold my breath at the same time guys.)

artherd
08-30-2006, 5:39 PM
if its not Ben's lower or the DOJ's and it truly belongs to the person stated on the 4473 form wouldnt it be that person's responsibilty to actively get it back? The DOJ, by law, can not deny responding to your rebuttal letter or claim. Just my two cents.... I would be pissed as well but not to the person/s who started the GB sale since they placed their butt on the line as well as you did.
Correct. I'll do my best of course out of the goodness of my heart, because I like to see property reconnected with it's rightful owner.

But as it's your gun, ultimately it's your responsibility.

artherd
08-30-2006, 5:40 PM
I'd bet the DOJ will just try to hang on to them as long as possible, so that as many owners as possibly will forget about it and move on, before making them available to be claimed. Then they'll give you a week before they are melted down.
Bingo. .

Matt640h
09-09-2006, 9:49 AM
Sorry but no. I would call/write/have-your-attorney-write DOJ.

Ben or anyone else involved,
Do you have any specific contact info regarding this case? I am one of the lower owners and wish to contact the DOJ via phone and possibly writing. The FFL gave me the case number and the officer's name but I don't have a number for him. I tried calling the main DOJ number but after sitting on hold for 15 minutes they transfered me to the firearms division where I was promptly disconnected (hung up on?).

Boarding-Team-Leader
09-09-2006, 12:43 PM
2 weeks is almost up.


Bens "Two Weeks :D" was a response to what I posted as a time frame I did not ever want to see in regards to when this all would end.

To make things easier for all of us directly involved, could someone please post the information (case number etc.) so the rest of us can send out inquiry letters.
Thanks,
BTL

TonyNorCal
09-09-2006, 1:01 PM
What you guys ought to do is just keep calling the DOJ and asking about them and keep writing letters.

I'm not saying some of you haven't done this. But I get the impression some Milipitas people call and just take the first no they get from the first person who answers. Or they're content for others to press the issue.

Call and ask to talk to supervisors. Call and ask to speak with the property control person. Call and ask to speak to A.M. Leave them messages. If you don't hear back in a week or two call again. Call in another week or two to check up.

Be polite. Be respectful. But this takes a little work on your part. If you call and the first person who answers says you're not getting them back then call back and ask for all the people above.

Find out what the serial number(s) of your lower(s) is/are. Write a letter with this info. Fax it to them. Fax it to A.M. Send it as a registered letter. Make is easy for the DOJ to identify exactly which lowers belong to you. So they know that 'two Lauers' (or whatever they took), serial numbers "xxxxx", etc. You get the point.

You can call the DOJ and ask to be transferred to people. Ask for whomever is handling the lowers. Ask for A.M. Talk to a few different people. You can also send faxes for certain people. Follow up your phone conversation with a fax.

Don't be afraid to ask for specific people. These are your public servants and you're asking for the return of your property.

Always be polite. Be respectful. Don't start ranting and raving. But keep after it.

These are your lowers but it takes some agency on your part.

I'd be surprised that if a sizeable number of people kept after this through direct contact it wouldn't finally break your way.

artherd
09-09-2006, 1:25 PM
Well put Tony, I second all of your recommendations.

As for numbers, etc. I have not been personally furnished with any specific case number. DOJ is quite familiar with the 'events' however.

I would call the following line, and persist untill I talked to someone who gave me a date. These are not contraband, per DOJ's own admission. They may not keep them. Finally, remenber DOJ is your legal adversairy in this matter. Treat everything they say over the phone as such.

Instead of posting here, do something that will help see real results, and call/write DOJ.

Attorney General's Office
California Department of Justice
Attn: Public Inquiry Unit
P.O. Box 944255
Sacramento, CA 94244-2550

1-800-952-5225
(Toll-free in CA) or
(916) 322-3360

the_quark
09-09-2006, 5:38 PM
Armchair lawyer question: What's the legality of recording your DOJ calls? I presume you'd have to notify them they're being recorded. Has anyone tried this? Do they refuse to speak to you "on the record" like that?

USMC_2651_E5
09-09-2006, 8:32 PM
Just say, "for quality control this call may be recorded" and you're good.:D

Matt640h
09-10-2006, 10:30 AM
Ok folks this is what I have so far. If anyone has more info or mine is incorrect please speak up.

Given to me by the Group Buy FFL:

Case# F1706-2U (the "U" maybe a zero or O, the writing isn't the best)
Officer John Marsh
Date 1-27-06

another source told me that this agent was involved:

email address dana.mckinnon@doj.ca.gov

MonsterMan
09-10-2006, 11:17 AM
Armchair lawyer question: What's the legality of recording your DOJ calls? I presume you'd have to notify them they're being recorded. Has anyone tried this? Do they refuse to speak to you "on the record" like that?

I've called them recently and they said that they no longer give opinions over the phone. It's only thru mail or email.

Also, I sent an email and I got a responce that they got my email and at the bottom of the email it had a "Notice". It said that whatever they tell me in the emial, that I couldn't tell anyone else. It was a "CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE". So if they told me their opinion, I could not tell everyone else. The info is to the recipiant of the email only, not everyone else. Funny.

MM

hoffmang
09-10-2006, 11:27 AM
They are wrong about the confidentiality. They may have an argument that they have some limited window of time due to an ongoing investigation, but in general email they send is a Public Record subject do disclosure under the California Constitution.

-Gene

the_quark
09-10-2006, 2:50 PM
Yeah, that's ridiculous. They have no ability to compell confidentiality from citizens on matters of public policy! And, what're they gonna do if you publish it, sue you?

6172crew
09-10-2006, 5:36 PM
From what I understand Officer John Marsh is the new guy taking over for IC.

Id say if they need emails and letters you guys should address them to the guy in charge.

The other email will at least get you to the right person as I think he took the receivers and was on site.

Good luck guys I hope they start handing those babies back before XMAS.