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MTUsports
07-07-2006, 9:35 AM
Hi,

I am not a California resident and am here for a work contract. Unfortunately, as I was in a rush to apply for my "first come first serve" contracting job here in the San Francisco Bay Area, I forgot some items at my home, in my home state. One of those being my firearms. As a result I have looked into purchasing a defense handgun or shotgun here in California. Unfortunately I do not know the legal laws of California and have found little help explaining them for a situation such as mine. If anyone here has any answers to the following questions below, please respond as I hope to better understand the California law.
I am in the market for the purchase of a defense handgun or shotgut, as an out-of-state resident can I:
Purchase a new gun from a FFL dealer?
Purchase a firearm from a "private sales" person?
Purchase a firearm from a gun or trade show?
If I purchase a firearm, must I register abiding state/federal law for all gun sales (private, trade-show, new/dealer)?
Must I have certification to purchase a handgun as an out-of-state resident? Even if I do not need one in my home state?
Are CCW permits available/allowed for out-of-state residents?
In order to fire a weapon at a shooting range, must an out-of-state resident have registration cards available for all guns to be used at the range?

Any answers you have to any of the questions above would greatly help me. Thank you for your time,
MTUsports

bwiese
07-07-2006, 9:55 AM
I dunno what a 'shotgut' is but I'll answer your questions: ;)
Hi,
I am not a California resident and am here for a work contract. I am in the market for the purchase of a defense handgun or shotgut,
as an out-of-state resident can I:

Purchase a new gun from a FFL dealer?

No. You need to be a CA resident w/ID.

Purchase a firearm from a "private sales" person?

No. For all practical purposes ALL gun sales in CA must go thru an FFL dealer w/paperwork & 10-day wait.
There is no legal thing such as a parking-lot deal here.

Purchase a firearm from a gun or trade show?

No. All sales at gun shows in CA also must go thru an FFL dealer. Illegal private party sales in parking lots are especially watched for...

If I purchase a firearm, must I register abiding state/federal law for all gun sales (private, trade-show, new/dealer)?

Again, you as an out-of-state resident can't purchase a gun here. If you became a resident, any legal sale would be appropriately 'papered' along with a 10-day waiting period and be done at a FFL dealer.

Do note that you should probably not buy guns outside your home state, either, (i.e, not California) unless you can do it thru a dealer. There's some Federal laws that might well be violated otherwise.


Must I have certification to purchase a handgun as an out-of-state resident? Even if I do not need one in my home state?

Not relevant, since you can't purchase guns here.

Are CCW permits available/allowed for out-of-state residents?

Hahahah. Hell, most of us natives can't even get one. But to answer, no, you have to be a resident of the CA county in which you apply. CCW issuance is subjective, is not "shall issue", etc.: many counties do not issue except to judges and political cronies and people like Sen. Dianne Feinstein and state Senator Don Perata (both noted antigunners).

In order to fire a weapon at a shooting range, must an out-of-state resident have registration cards available for all guns to be used at the range?


No. You might have to show your driver's license or ID card though, just for ID reasons. But if you bring a gun you can shoot it. For business reasons, many ranges will not rent guns to (1) those who do not bring a gun already or (2) have not come accompanied by other(s) with guns in the same party.


You CAN bring in YOUR guns from out of state, but observe this:
do not bring in hicap magazines (those over 10rds);


note that guns accepting hicap mags are OK, just bring it in with a 10rd or less magazine;


do not bring in assault weapons banned by name or by feature (pistol grip detachable magazine, etc.). Pistols w/threaded barrels are AWs. Semiauto rifles like M1As and Mini14s are AWs if they have flash hiders: replacing these flash hiders w/muzzle brakes allows them to be CA legal if they don't have folding stocks or pistol grips, etc. SKSes with detachable magazines are a no-no as well.


if you bring handgun(s) in you have 60 days to file with Calif DOJ a "personal handgun importation" form and $19/handgun fee.

MTUsports
07-07-2006, 10:16 AM
You never heard of a shotgut, oh yeah, its the greatest and latest craze, everyone's getting one, called a better keyboard :P
But seriously, so obviously I cannot purchase a gun in California.

But can I:
Have a friend (resident) purchase a firearm and give it to me?
Purchase a firearm in say AZ or Montana and not register it upon import into CA?
Also, as a truck driver, is it illegal to carry a handgun in the cab with me, even if it is locked, in an unreachable-while-driving location, and in a case, with ammunition in a seperate locked case?
Also, as I am new to the CA area and laws, does anyone have any suggestions as to how I could purchase a firearm to have during the duration of my work contract.
Also, is open carry legal?

Thanks

MTUsports

Hunter
07-07-2006, 10:27 AM
........

if you bring handgun(s) in you have 60 days to file with Calif DOJ a "personal handgun importation" form and $19/handgun fee.
[/list]


Isn't this only a requirement if the person (aka importer) is a resident or intending to be a resident of CA?


Any person who meets the definition of a personal handgun importer who moves into
California with the intention of establishing residency in this state, must report his or her
ownership of any handgun acquired outside California to the Department of Justice within
60 days.

Hunter
07-07-2006, 10:40 AM
Actually you can buy a shotgun or rifle as a non-resident from a FFL dealer here in CA. There are only resident restrictions on buying a handgun. You will still need to do the 10 day waiting game. If you intend to have the firearm with you in the truck, then a shotgun would be the way to go. No where near the restrictions you have with having a handgun in the truck.


Here is the link to the california firearm booklet that spells it out for you.

http://ag.ca.gov/firearms/forms/pdf/Cfl2006.pdf

And for traveling with a firearm here in CA the AG states:


Traveling with Firearms in California




HANDGUNS

California Penal Code section 12025 does not prevent a citizen of the United States over 18 years of age who is not within any of the classes excepted from firearm possession and who resides or is temporarily in California from transporting by motor vehicle any pistol, revolver, or other firearm capable of being concealed upon the person if the firearm is unloaded and in a locked container.

The term "locked container" means a secure container which is fully enclosed and locked by a padlock, key lock, combination lock, or similar locking device. This includes the trunk of a motor vehicle, but does not include the utility or glove compartment. For more information, refer to California Penal Code Section 12026.1.



SHOTGUNS AND RIFLES

Nonconcealable firearms (rifles and shotguns) are not generally covered within the provisions of California Penal Code section 12025 and therefore are not required to be transported in a locked container. However, as with any firearm, nonconcealable firearms must be unloaded while they are being transported. A rifle or shotgun that is considered an assault weapon in California must be transported in accordance with Penal Code section 12026.1.

bwiese
07-07-2006, 10:42 AM
Actually you can buy a shotgun or rifle as a non-resident from a FFL dealer here in CA. There are only resident restrictions on buying a handgun. You will still need to do the 10 day waiting game.

Can you show the interface btwn BATF and Cal law that allows this?

I don't think this is just handgun specific, I could be wrong and I'd like to be proved wrong.

FFLs, please chip in.

bwiese
07-07-2006, 10:44 AM
Isn't this only a requirement if the person (aka importer) is a resident or intending to be a resident of CA?

That may be grey area. If you stay here longer than some period of time you're no longer transient.

I don't have time to look up now, but as I recall the 'personal handgun importer' status may begin from the time of your extended stay...

bwiese
07-07-2006, 10:50 AM
You never heard of a shotgut, oh yeah, its the greatest and latest craze, everyone's getting one, called a better keyboard :P
But seriously, so obviously I cannot purchase a gun in California.

I possibly may have been wrong about long guns, we'll see when others (FFLs) pipe in. I'd like to be proved wrong, though I do think I'm right.


Have a friend (resident) purchase a firearm and give it to me?


That's kinda skirting the law. 'Straw purchase' concepts may well apply. And he can't 'give' you the gun: 'transfer' means it has to be papered, 10day wait, etc. - and requires the transferee to be a resident.


Purchase a firearm in say AZ or Montana and not register it upon import into CA?

I dunno if you are allowed to buy a gun in another state than your state of residence. You might be able to, at least for long guns.

If it WERE legal for you to do this, you thus legally owned the gun and could bring it into CA.

Also, as a truck driver, is it illegal to carry a handgun in the cab with me, even if it is locked, in an unreachable-while-driving location, and in a case, with ammunition in a seperate locked case?

You should not generally transport a handgun on a continuous basis. Even when locked & unloaded, you really should have an articulable specific destination.


Also, as I am new to the CA area and laws, does anyone have any suggestions as to how I could purchase a firearm to have during the duration of my work contract.

I think we've covered most of the ground.

Perhaps if you're that desparate for a gun you should get CA residency since you'll be here long enough, apparently.

Or, just make a quick trip back home and bring back your own guns into Ca.

Also, is open carry legal?

In some areas (low population counties) it may, but as i recall handgun still has to be unloaded.

Don't do it though, you'll likely be arrested for disturbing the peace, brandishing, etc.

Hunter
07-07-2006, 10:52 AM
Can you show the interface btwn BATF and Cal law that allows this?

I don't think this is just handgun specific, I could be wrong and I'd like to be proved wrong.

FFLs, please chip in.


Federal law allows for an individual to purchase a long gun in another state if it is bought thru a FFL dealer in that state and both the laws of that state and the persons state of resident is followed. As a CA trying to buy a rifle in MT, the FFL dealers cannot do a CA-DROS, so I cannot do that. But for a MT resident to buy in CA, no problem as CA laws far exceed the MT requirements.
http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/faq2.htm#b3

From whom may an unlicensed person acquire a firearm under the GCA? [Back]

A person may only acquire a firearm within the person’s own State, except that he or she may purchase or otherwise acquire a rifle or shotgun, in person, at a licensee's premises in any State, provided the sale complies with State laws applicable in the State of sale and the State where the purchaser resides. A person may borrow or rent a firearm in any State for temporary use for lawful sporting purposes.

[18 U.S.C. 922(a)(3) and (5), 922(b)(3), 27 CFR 478.29 and 478.30]


Here in CA the only resident restrictions are as follows:


California Residency Requirement
No firearms dealer may deliver a handgun unless the intended recipient presents
satisfactory documentation indicating that he or she is a California resident. Satisfactory
documentation includes a utility bill from within the last three months, a residential lease, a
property deed, military permanent duty station orders indicating assignment within this
state, or other evidence of residency as permitted by the Department of Justice. Acceptable
documentation does not include passports, account statements from financial institutions,
or pay stubs. (Penal Code § 12071(b)(8).)

bwiese
07-07-2006, 10:57 AM
Hunter
That is good to know.
However, I will want to read the PC in detail just to make sure. I don't like relying on DOJ summary booklets (that's like going to traffic court and using the DMV booklet instead of Vehicle Code in a defense).

kantstudien
07-07-2006, 11:03 AM
No, a Montana resident cannot buy a rifle or shotgun in California. The reason for this is that the sale must comply with both the state of purchase and the state of residence. So while someone would be compliant with MT law, they would not have a valid CA ID (a requirement for buying any firearms from a FFL in CA), and therefore cannot comply with California law.

MTUsports
07-07-2006, 11:03 AM
AS STATED:

California Residency Requirement
No firearms dealer may deliver a handgun unless the intended recipient presents
satisfactory documentation indicating that he or she is a California resident. Satisfactory
documentation includes a utility bill from within the last three months, a residential lease, a
property deed, military permanent duty station orders indicating assignment within this
state, or other evidence of residency as permitted by the Department of Justice. Acceptable
documentation does not include passports, account statements from financial institutions,
or pay stubs. (Penal Code § 12071(b)(8).)


As such, since I am renting property in CA for the duration of my work, as well as paying utilities etc, I am considered a resident and can purchase the gun of my chosing, correct?
If correct, does this apply to all sales?

Also, since you can purchase firearms via the internet, in CA, must you use a FFL dealer to receive the weapon? I would assume so, but would it be unlawful if say a relative sent me my firearms via mail. (driving home is not an available option as it is Michigan, almost 40 hours away). Thanks

kantstudien
07-07-2006, 11:06 AM
As stated earlier, if you do not have a valid CA ID, you are not eligible to purchase firearms from a dealer in CA. It does not matter if you have utility bills, etc. to show that you live in California if you do not first and foremost have a CA driver's license.

Hunter
07-07-2006, 11:16 AM
No, a Montana resident cannot buy a rifle or shotgun in California. The reason for this is that the sale must comply with both the state of purchase and the state of residence. So while someone would be compliant with MT law, they would not have a valid CA ID (a requirement for buying any firearms from a FFL in CA), and therefore cannot comply with California law.


The valid CA ID is for handguns purchase as there are no resident requirements for longguns. If I'm wrong, please site the PC showing this. I cannot find any such PC in relation to long guns. Or is this just the way the DROS is set up?

If that is so, then the non resident can go get a CA ID (not a driver license for you NR) and then do the purchase?

bwiese
07-07-2006, 11:33 AM
The valid CA ID is for handguns purchase as there are no resident requirements for longguns. If I'm wrong, please site the PC showing this. I cannot find any such PC in relation to long guns. Or is this just the way the DROS is set up?

If that is so, then the non resident can go get a CA ID (not a driver license for you NR) and then do the purchase?

Y'know, now that that is brought up, I do think the DROS is set up this way (CA ID). I think that's also why PPTs cannot happen from nonresident to resident.

So he'd need to get CA ID.

Hunter
07-07-2006, 11:48 AM
Y'know, now that that is brought up, I do think the DROS is set up this way (CA ID). I think that's also why PPTs cannot happen from nonresident to resident.

So he'd need to get CA ID.

Yep, it looks that way. From the DOJ FAQ section for dealers that state:
3. What is the process for purchasing a firearm in California?
All firearms purchases and transfers, including private party transactions and sales at gun shows, must be made through a licensed dealer under the Dealer Record of Sale (DROS) process. California imposes a 10-day waiting period before a firearm can be released to a buyer or transferee. A person must be at least 18 years of age to purchase a rifle or shotgun. To buy a handgun, a person must be at least 21 years of age, and either 1) possess an HSC plus successfully complete a safety demonstration with the handgun being purchased or 2) qualify for an HSC exemption.

As part of the DROS process, the buyer must present "clear evidence of identity and age" which is defined as a valid, non-expired California Driver's License or Identification Card issued by the Department of Motor Vehicles. A military identification accompanied by permanent duty station orders indicating a posting in California is also acceptable.
If the buyer is not a U.S. Citizen, then he or she is required to demonstrate that he or she is legally within the United States by providing to the firearms dealer with documentation that contains his/her Alien Registration Number or I-94 Number.

Purchasers of handguns are also required to provide proof of California residency, such as a utility bill, residential lease, property deed, or government-issued identification (other than a drivers license or other DMV-issued identification).

(PC Section 12071)

But it also says that residency is only for handguns. Also they do state "temporary IDs" are not allowed in another section, since I assume that they do not contain photos.

I guess this shows another back door approach to restricting firearms here in CA. Instead of just outlawing non resident purchases, they make them jump thru another hoop by getting a ID card ( or at least is seems so far). It's not like their current out of state driver's license doesn't already show
"clear evidence of identity and age" . I guess the final word would have to come from DOJ if an out of state DL would go thru the DROS process or not.

DSA_FAL
07-07-2006, 11:50 AM
If someone you trust such as your spouse or parents have access to your firearms then I'd suggest they send them to you. It would be the easiest way to do it. Othewise I'd say become a resident.

Rent an apartment here and then apply for a California State ID card (so you can keep your existing DL). Make sure your ID has your California address on it. That ID card plus a utility bill is all you need to buy a handgun in California.

Hunter
07-07-2006, 11:58 AM
If someone you trust such as your spouse or parents have access to your firearms then I'd suggest they send them to you. It would be the easiest way to do it. Othewise I'd say become a resident......

No can do. The only way for a person not to go thru a FFL dealer for receiving would be if they shipped the firearm to themselves. Otherwords if I'm going hunting or target shooting out of state, I can ship my rifle to my location out of state, for my retrieval once I get there. All without using a FFL. I then can reship it to myself at home when I head back. So if his parents shipped them to a FFL dealer here, then it gets back to needing an ID card to complete the DROS.

MTUsports
07-07-2006, 3:48 PM
Thank you for all of your help.
I cannot believe that gun control is this strictly regulated here in CA. It almost is to the point of being impossible or impractical for a person to have, own, carry or use a firearm.

As I currently see it, the only option available to me is to visit my local DMV here in the Bay Area and sign up for a "valid" CA ID card.

Also, so basically, all reasonable options I cannot do:
Purchase a gun as an out-of-state resident,
Ship a gun to me from a family member back home,
Purchase a gun from another location and transfer it into CA,
Drive with a gun in my vehicle unless strickly following a direct route from usage to home etc,
Seems pretty ridiculous to me. All I know is where I am from, open carry is legal, ccw's are given away like paper, it is legal to drive with a gun in the vehicle, (even in MT it is legal to drive with it loaded....they also just passed a law last year restricting drinking and driving, before last year, it was legal) and it is not a problem nor a hassle to purchase firearms.
Personally, as a gun ower, hunter and collector, I find it very disheartening to have the state restrict my freedoms. As I wish to abide the laws, but the unlawful can easily avoid the law with little to no repricussion.

Hunter
07-07-2006, 6:26 PM
Thank you for all of your help.
I cannot believe that gun control is this strictly regulated here in CA. It almost is to the point of being impossible or impractical for a person to have, own, carry or use a firearm.

As I currently see it, the only option available to me is to visit my local DMV here in the Bay Area and sign up for a "valid" CA ID card.
.......

Actually another option, since you are not a CA resident, is for you to go to a ffl dealer in Reno and purchase a rifle/shotgun there legally. Then as a non-resident of CA, you would be able to legally bring it with you on your travels here. Other than that, you will need a CA ID card or jump on a plane home for a weekend and bring a few firearms back with you.

Mssr. Eleganté
07-08-2006, 12:12 AM
One other option would be to purchase a rlfle or shotgun that is at least 50 years old from a Californian who is Curio & Relic FFL holder.

50 year old long guns are exempt from Californias Dealer transfer requirements and Curio & Relic FFL's are allowed to sell C&R long guns to out of state residents if the transaction takes place at the C&R FFL's licensed premises.

But it would be easier and you would have a better selection of guns if you just went to Reno and bought a long gun from a gun shop using your Michigan ID as was suggested above.

dwtt
07-08-2006, 10:10 AM
As I currently see it, the only option available to me is to visit my local DMV here in the Bay Area and sign up for a "valid" CA ID card.

All I know is where I am from, open carry is legal, ccw's are given away like paper, it is legal to drive with a gun in the vehicle, (even in MT it is legal to drive with it loaded....they also just passed a law last year restricting drinking and driving, before last year, it was legal) and it is not a problem nor a hassle to purchase firearms.

You shouldn't get a CA ID or driver's license, just keep your current home state driver's license. You never told us where your home state is, but if it's Montana, you can try this. Call dealers in Nevada (Reno) and Oregon and ask if a resident from Montana can purchase a firearm from them. If the answer is yes, then you can go on a day trip to OR or NV and buy a gun and bring it back with you to CA. Only be careful to buy a gun that won't violate any CA AW laws, and trade in the regular capacity magazines for 10-round magazines. Then when you bring the gun back to your temporary residence in CA, you are complying with CA laws regarding visitors to this great state. Maintaining your Montana residency is much better than trying to change to CA residency to buy a few guns.

bwiese
07-08-2006, 10:30 AM
Yes, changing residency may have (severe) tax implications.

Smokeybehr
07-08-2006, 12:35 PM
Pulled from the DMV website:

If you are a visitor in California over 18 and have a valid driver license from your home state or country, you may drive in this state without getting a California driver license as long as your home state license remains valid.



If you take a job here or become a resident, you must get a California driver license within 10 days. Residency is established by voting in a California election, paying resident tuition, filing for a homeowner's property tax exemption, or any other privilege or benefit not ordinarily extended to nonresidents.


DMV issues ID cards to persons of any age. The ID card looks like a driver license, but is used for identification purposes only. A regular ID card is valid for six years, and a senior citizen ID card is valid for 10 years. To qualify for a senior citizen ID card, you must be age 62 or older.




IMO, just keep your Montana DL, get a CA ID with your current address, and when the contract is up, change the address on the ID to your next address, or surrender it back to the DMV if you don't plan on coming back. If your Montana DL is going to expire any time soon, I'd suggest that you renew it and keep it active.

TRP PRO 1911
07-11-2006, 5:09 AM
Actually you can buy a shotgun or rifle as a non-resident from a FFL dealer here in CA. There are only resident restrictions on buying a handgun. You will still need to do the 10 day waiting game. If you intend to have the firearm with you in the truck, then a shotgun would be the way to go. No where near the restrictions you have with having a handgun in the truck.


Here is the link to the california firearm booklet that spells it out for you.

http://ag.ca.gov/firearms/forms/pdf/Cfl2006.pdf

And for traveling with a firearm here in CA the AG states:

WRONG. As a person that works for a CA FFL, the DROS will only accept CA DL, CA ID,and MIL ID w/ copy of duty orders stating current duty station is within CA. To purchase any firearm in CA, you have to be a resident or military personel within CA

CA DOJ used to accept out of state ID's for PPT, but that has changed since 1993. They used to accept US Passports, but that is long gone also.

YMMV.

Otherguy Overby
07-11-2006, 2:42 PM
Can a visitor to California do a private party transfer through a dealer to a CA resident?

TRP PRO 1911
07-11-2006, 2:44 PM
Can a visitor to California do a private party transfer through a dealer to a CA resident?


No, it cannot be done