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mzimmers
07-05-2006, 1:03 PM
Hi, all -

I know that here in CA, any firearm transported in a vehicle must be kept in a locked area outside the passenger compartment. For most passenger cars, this essentially means the trunk, but what about pickup trucks? Are they exempt from the law, or do they need a lockable box somewhere in the bed?

EricCartmanR1
07-05-2006, 1:47 PM
Hi, all -

I know that here in CA, any firearm transported in a vehicle must be kept in a locked area outside the passenger compartment. For most passenger cars, this essentially means the trunk, but what about pickup trucks? Are they exempt from the law, or do they need a lockable box somewhere in the bed?

if you have a standard pick up you are pretty much screwed. no exemption. by a hard tonneau cover then you will be set.

JPglee1
07-05-2006, 1:48 PM
if you have a standard pick up you are pretty much screwed. no exemption. by a hard tonneau cover then you will be set.


You could weld/bolt a box inside the bed and lock it inside that. As long as you can't get to it with the vehicle in motion/or getting out of the cab you're OK (and its LOCKED and UNLOADED with any ammo inside the cab)


JP

mzimmers
07-05-2006, 1:56 PM
Thanks for the replies, guys. I'm actually OK...I have one of these:

http://www.800toolbox.com/Pickup_Dir/Pickup_Dir.htm

I was asking for someone else.

I guess the people who are really in a tough spot are the SUV owners...I'll have to remember that if I decide I want one someday.

edwardm
07-05-2006, 1:57 PM
Hi, all -

I know that here in CA, any firearm transported in a vehicle must be kept in a locked area outside the passenger compartment. For most passenger cars, this essentially means the trunk, but what about pickup trucks? Are they exempt from the law, or do they need a lockable box somewhere in the bed?


You must lock up 1) assault weapons (registered, not your OLL) and 2) handguns/guns capable of being concealed on the person.

You do NOT need to lock up long rifles/shotguns. They must be UNLOADED and no ammunition must be attached to them.

If you seek VALID confirmation of the above, this is NOT the place. Head over to http://ag.ca.gov/firearms and read the FAQ, or call CalDOJ's firearms division (phone # is on their web site) and ASK the nice analyst. The rank and file analysts tend to give proper and decent answers. Barring that, contact Bruce Colodny, Chuck Michel or Don Kilmer and get it from their mouth.

vonsmith
07-05-2006, 2:20 PM
You must lock up 1) assault weapons (registered, not your OLL) and 2) handguns/guns capable of being concealed on the person.

You do NOT need to lock up long rifles/shotguns. They must be UNLOADED and no ammunition must be attached to them.

If you seek VALID confirmation of the above, this is NOT the place. Head over to http://ag.ca.gov/firearms and read the FAQ, or call CalDOJ's firearms division (phone # is on their web site) and ASK the nice analyst. The rank and file analysts tend to give proper and decent answers. Barring that, contact Bruce Colodny, Chuck Michel or Don Kilmer and get it from their mouth.
+1 It's always nice to see some official language.

In Kalifornia, it is permissible to lock your unloaded handguns in a separate container in your vehicle. Warning - not the center console, not the glove compartment, etc. A separate container. It can be a lockable tool box, a firearm's lockable box, a lockable range bag, etc. All of the ammo should be stored in another separate container. It doesn't need to be locked, but I lock mine sometimes anyway. You should drive directly to or from the range. Only short diversions are allowed, like stopping for gas. Never carry your firearms in your vehicle constantly. There are exceptions for when you go camping. It's best to read the official text so that there isn't any misunderstanding.

I don't know the specific laws regarding AW's, since I don't own any. Best to check for that info if necessary.

Also do a search on this forum. I bet you'll find this discussed to death on several threads.


=vonsmith=

JPglee1
07-05-2006, 2:29 PM
. Never carry your firearms in your vehicle constantly. There are exceptions for when you go camping. It's best to read the official text so that there isn't any misunderstanding.

=

I was under the impression that if they are in a locked case, you can have them in your car whenever (pistols that is)

I thought if you just tossed them in the trunk that is only OK for going to and from the range?

I dunno, I'd rather have a shotgun anyway so I dont really ever drive w/a pistol in the car (unloaded and locked of course...legal all the way)


JP

grammaton76
07-05-2006, 3:03 PM
I was under the impression that if they are in a locked case, you can have them in your car whenever (pistols that is)

I thought if you just tossed them in the trunk that is only OK for going to and from the range?

Nah, handguns are basically subject to the same transport requirements as AW's. Locked case and specific destination requirements.

JPglee1
07-05-2006, 3:05 PM
Nah, handguns are basically subject to the same transport requirements as AW's. Locked case and specific destination requirements.

Kewl dude, thanks for the info...


Hope yer staying cool in Dago, I bet its hot down there today! 102* in Victorville right now (where I am anyway)


JP

grammaton76
07-05-2006, 3:56 PM
Kewl dude, thanks for the info...

Hope yer staying cool in Dago, I bet its hot down there today! 102* in Victorville right now (where I am anyway)

It was pretty hot a while back, but it seems to have cooled off. Either that or I'm just getting used to it. At least I'm back to work - they pulled some stupidity with forcing everyone to take a week of vacation, which translated to "ok, now don't come to the air conditioned office, hang out at your non-air-conditioned trailer". :)

At least I managed to get some random work done around the house.

CalNRA
07-05-2006, 3:58 PM
I keep an unloaded shotgun in my car. There are no laws that says I can't...

JPglee1
07-05-2006, 3:59 PM
I keep an unloaded shotgun in my car. There are no laws that says I can't...

Where do you keep your shells? I heard its OK to put them in the parcel tray or attached to the dash in a 5 shell holder, as long as they aren't TOUCHING the gun in anyway and aren't in yer pocket...


JP

FreedomIsNotFree
07-05-2006, 4:37 PM
You can have a loaded clip or mag as long as it is not attached, in any manner, to the firearm.

In terms of the destination requirements for handguns, they are not nearly as strict as some here are claiming. As long as you have a purpose for transport you are fine.....like even taking it to a friends house to lend to him....or to another friends house for show and tell....basically anything other than saying "I just keep it in my car at all times" is fine.

Longarms can be kept anywhere in the vehicle as long as there is no ammo attached. Handguns must be in a locked container. The trunk is considered a locked container, but the console or glovebox is NOT. I have a small compact pistol safe that I keep in my backpack on my passenger seat....I have my pistol in there with a loaded mag in the center console or the spare pocket in the backpack.....100% legal and it only takes me about 6 seconds to lock and load if the need arises. Granted, not as good as a CCW, but better than most.

FreedomIsNotFree
07-05-2006, 4:40 PM
Where do you keep your shells? I heard its OK to put them in the parcel tray or attached to the dash in a 5 shell holder, as long as they aren't TOUCHING the gun in anyway and aren't in yer pocket...


JP

You can put them anywhere you want as long as they are not attached to the firearm....You can even hold them in your hand if you wanted to.

JPglee1
07-05-2006, 4:48 PM
You can put them anywhere you want as long as they are not attached to the firearm....You can even hold them in your hand if you wanted to.

Well shoot, that aint so bad... Having a pump shotty in the front seat with shells on the dash and in your pocket doesn't seem so bad to me. Just the SIGHT of the pump would stop 90% of the people who would possible be accosting you.


Thanks for the info.

Now I wonder how it would play out in REAL life if I were to actually drive around with a shotgun on my front seat of my truck (or an SKS)... I bet I'd be meeting Mr. Glock quite frequently when Mr. LEO escorted me out of my truck daily LOL



JP

grammaton76
07-05-2006, 4:53 PM
Well shoot, that aint so bad... Having a pump shotty in the front seat with shells on the dash and in your pocket doesn't seem so bad to me. Just the SIGHT of the pump would stop 90% of the people who would possible be accosting you.

Let's not forget the fun and games you'd have with delivery truck drivers going by and seeing the shotgun on your seat, then calling the CHP. I imagine long haul drivers wouldn't care too much, but local delivery guys are probably a different story.

Don't forget that it would also be very easy for a soccer mom to see it from her high-rise SUV - all she'd have to do is lie and say you were brandishing it all over the place, and even if you didn't get taken in the first time, it'd probably happen enough times the CHP would assume some truth was involved. Never underestimate the willful malevolence of the "this is the way I want it to be" brigade. Get the right 'crusader' around, and they're ABSOLUTELY willing to lie to authorities to get you in trouble, and anyone who thinks otherwise has not experienced it themselves yet. But the state encourages this behaviour, and it's just going to keep getting worse.

VeryCoolCat
07-05-2006, 7:20 PM
This post is FILLED WITH A LOT OF BAD INFORMATION.

The rules are for handguns/assault weapons. They must be stored in a seperate locked container and unloaded. Its always good to have the action open, but that IS NOT A REQUIREMENT for transportation. Ammunition CANNOT be IN the weapon. It can lie around it, sit under it, sit in the same case but cannot be LOADED into it. An "UNCOCKED" but loaded weapon is still considered loaded.

The entire basis of this rule is to prevent a firearm from being readily available to you. It still can be sitting next to you, in the trunk, in the back seat... but IT MUST BE IN A LOCKED CONTAINER.

a LOCKED CONTAINER includes lockable suitcases, soft (cd case looking) cases with a purchased pad lock, or even one of those small wall safes that you never attached to anything. Any device not attached to the car and that has a lock that requires a combination or a key is considered a locked container in the wording of the law.


Longarms that are NOT ASSAULT must be UNLOADED, means weapon must have no physical bullets attached and ready to be fired or cocked into position. The ONLY REQUIREMENT for them is to be COVERED. Be it by a container, a rifle case, or a cardboard box you found behind the 7/11.

A great example of explaining loaded and unloaded would be a shotgun with a saddle in a duffle bag.

The shotgun is COVERED in the bag, the shotgun can have shells on the saddle as it is not considered "LOADED" but CANNOT have anything in the tube. Plus ammo could be stored in the same compartment.

SemiAutoSam
07-05-2006, 8:24 PM
The entire basis of this rule is to prevent a firearm from being readily available to you.



What good is a weapon that is not accessable to you ?

What kind of nonsence is this what moron wrote this LAW?

Hunter
07-05-2006, 9:02 PM
This post is FILLED WITH A LOT OF BAD INFORMATION.


I agree. The best thing for a person needing info in his/her particular situation is to look it up in the Californina Firearms Law booklet. Case in point is some of the very statements you made. They are correct in some cases but not always and some are not correct at all.....


The rules are for handguns/assault weapons. They must be stored in a seperate locked container and unloaded. Its always good to have the action open, but that IS NOT A REQUIREMENT for transportation. Ammunition CANNOT be IN the weapon. It can lie around it, sit under it, sit in the same case but cannot be LOADED into it. An "UNCOCKED" but loaded weapon is still considered loaded.

The entire basis of this rule is to prevent a firearm from being readily available to you. It still can be sitting next to you, in the trunk, in the back seat... but IT MUST BE IN A LOCKED CONTAINER.

a LOCKED CONTAINER includes lockable suitcases, soft (cd case looking) cases with a purchased pad lock, or even one of those small wall safes that you never attached to anything. Any device not attached to the car and that has a lock that requires a combination or a key is considered a locked container in the wording of the law.

If the hand gun is NOT CONCEALED is does NOT have to be in a locked container. Left in plain sight is legal, just maynot be the most prudent thing DEPENDING on where you are. If you are in an unincorporated area, say chasing bambi in season or target practicing, you donot have to toss your gun in a locked case everytime you get in truck to move to another location.


Longarms that are NOT ASSAULT must be UNLOADED, means weapon must have no physical bullets attached and ready to be fired or cocked into position.

Again, this all depends on where you are. In LA or any other incorporated area, yes. Running around the countryside in an unincorporated area, then magazines can have cartridges in them, but the gun must be unloaded at all times (i.e none in the chamber) while it is in the vehicle as stated.


The ONLY REQUIREMENT for them is to be COVERED. Be it by a container, a rifle case, or a cardboard box you found behind the 7/11.

This is so wrong. There is nothing say you have to conceal a longarm.



A great example of explaining loaded and unloaded would be a shotgun with a saddle in a duffle bag.

The shotgun is COVERED in the bag, the shotgun can have shells on the saddle as it is not considered "LOADED" but CANNOT have anything in the tube. Plus ammo could be stored in the same compartment.

Again this "loaded / unloaded" in pertaining to long arms having shells in the magazine is dependent on location and activity.


So again, if someone is trying to figure out what is legal in terms of transporting a firearm in CA, please look at the booklet for the best information. While there are some exemptions out there (as I have pointed out) if you aren't aware of them, then you are probably best to error on the conservative side of things: No shells and in a locked case and you are fine. It doesn't have to be in a trunk or any other place in the vehicle if you do this. You can have it on sitting on the seat next to you.

hdcd
07-05-2006, 10:11 PM
If the hand gun is NOT CONCEALED is does NOT have to be in a locked container. Left in plain sight is legal, just maynot be the most prudent thing DEPENDING on where you are. If you are in an unincorporated area, say chasing bambi in season or target practicing, you donot have to toss your gun in a locked case everytime you get in truck to move to another location.


In both my cars I have a storage area connected to the door where you can throw stuff. It's down near the bottom of the door. I've always wondered if that would be considered NOT CONCEALED..Put my UNLOADED Glock down there with a loaded mag in the center console...I know it may not be the most prudent thing to do in some areas..but..what is the definition of "NOT CONCEALED"?

VeryCoolCat
07-05-2006, 11:06 PM
OH MY GOD HUNTER, your giving people wrong information shortly after you agree with me. Fine, i'll quote the DOJ. BTW Hunter your also BREAKING THE LAW.

hdcd You are also breaking the law. Any compartment that does not have a lock and is not physically removable from the vehicle is considered a utility compartment.

HANDGUNS MUST BE (A) UNLOADED (B) LOCKED IN A CONTAINER (C) HAVING A CONCEALED FIREARM IN YOUR VEHICLE CAN GET YOU INTO DEEP.

Now let me DISCUSS (B)... the law says while transporting between vehicle-anywhere you MUST HAVE THE HANDGUN locked. It was added on after the original law said that the TRUNK WAS OKAY. So they never changed the previous text. Once you take the handgun out of the trunk... then its illegal.

The entire basis is to prevent gangsters from shooting someone that cuts them off etc. Although it has no standing for us legals, those who are on the other side of the law caused these rules.

12026.1. (a) Section 12025 shall not be construed to prohibit any citizen of the United States over the age of 18 years who resides or is temporarily within this state, and who is not within the excepted classes prescribed by Section 12021 or 12021.1 of this code or Section 8100 or 8103 of the Welfare and Institutions Code, from transporting or carrying any pistol, revolver, or other firearm capable of being concealed upon the person, provided that the following applies to the firearm:
(1) The firearm is within a motor vehicle and it is locked in the vehicle's trunk or in a locked container in the vehicle other than the utility or glove compartment.

(2) The firearm is carried by the person directly to or from any motor vehicle for any lawful purpose and, while carrying the firearm, the firearm is contained within a locked container.

(b) The provisions of this section do not prohibit or limit the otherwise lawful carrying or transportation of any pistol, revolver, or other firearm capable of being concealed upon the person in accordance with this chapter.

(c) As used in this section, "locked container" means a secure container which is fully enclosed and locked by a padlock, key lock, combination lock, or similar locking device.


(a) A person is guilty of carrying a concealed firearm when he or she does any of the following:
(1) Carries concealed within any vehicle which is under his or her control or direction any pistol, revolver, or other firearm capable of being concealed upon the person.
(2) Carries concealed upon his or her person any pistol, revolver, or other firearm capable of being concealed upon the person.
(3) Causes to be carried concealed within any vehicle in which he or she is an occupant any pistol, revolver, or other firearm capable of being concealed upon the person.

Concealment laws for you guys who dontunderstand what CARRY CONCEALED VS OPEN CARRY MEAN.


Nonconcealable firearms (rifles and shotguns) are not generally covered within the provisions of California Penal Code section 12025 and therefore are not required to be transported in a locked container. However, as with any firearm, nonconcealable firearms must be unloaded while they are being transported. A rifle or shotgun that is considered an assault weapon in California must be transported in accordance with Penal Code section 12026.1.

Okay now the reason I say COVERED is because if you carry a rifle around on public property in plain view your going to get yourself into deep crap. So it MUST BE COVERED. NOT IN SIGHT.

Now you can argue this if you want. But i'm absolutely positive on this. NOW where most of you GET THIS MISINFORMATION is from firing ranges or shops that have their own rules and you believe them to be the law.

OF COURSE!!! These laws are exempt while on private property or a desginated area. Like a hunting area or a range.

hdcd
07-06-2006, 6:12 AM
hdcd You are also breaking the law. Any compartment that does not have a lock and is not physically removable from the vehicle is considered a utility compartment.
[/B]

If you re-read my post I said.."I've always wondered if that would be considered NOT CONCEALED." Does that imply I do it?

VeryCoolCat
07-06-2006, 10:31 AM
The concealed law is more for if your found with a handgun readily accesible on yourself or in your vehicle then its "concealed." If its in a locked container, then the DOJ considers that "unconcealed" even though its not in view.

Firearms in the glovebox or ANY compartment built into the vehicle. Are not considered locked boxes and are therefore considered concealed.

The DOJ has a tendency to change the meaning of words.

Librarian
07-06-2006, 11:04 AM
The concealed law is more for if your found with a handgun readily accesible on yourself or in your vehicle then its "concealed." If its in a locked container, then the DOJ considers that "unconcealed" even though its not in view.More precisely, it is not considered a violation of PC 12025, carrying a concealable weapon concealed without CCW.

To answer Semi-Auto Sam,What good is a weapon that is not accessable to you ?Well, not much. The point is that the Legislature in its wisdom does not want the general populace to have weapons immediately accessible, thus CCW laws to regulate who has that ability in public.

mdimeo
07-06-2006, 11:21 AM
Speaking of official language, where in the law does it say that handguns have to be taken directly to and from the range? This seems to be widely believed, but I've never been able to find the language that requires that.

This page doesn't mention it: http://ag.ca.gov/firearms/travel.htm.



+1 It's always nice to see some official language.

In Kalifornia, it is permissible to lock your unloaded handguns in a separate container in your vehicle. Warning - not the center console, not the glove compartment, etc. A separate container. It can be a lockable tool box, a firearm's lockable box, a lockable range bag, etc. All of the ammo should be stored in another separate container. It doesn't need to be locked, but I lock mine sometimes anyway. You should drive directly to or from the range. Only short diversions are allowed, like stopping for gas. Never carry your firearms in your vehicle constantly. There are exceptions for when you go camping. It's best to read the official text so that there isn't any misunderstanding.

I don't know the specific laws regarding AW's, since I don't own any. Best to check for that info if necessary.

Also do a search on this forum. I bet you'll find this discussed to death on several threads.


=vonsmith=

VeryCoolCat
07-06-2006, 11:31 AM
While transporting a firearm, although you SHOULD take precautions.

There is no law that says you can't stop by dennys and leave a locked handgun or a rifle in your car while you eat.

Hunter
07-06-2006, 11:52 AM
VeryCoolCat,

Read the PC that you site. A person cannot have a concealed firearm unless it is properly locked and unloaded. We agree on this. But if the gun is NOT CONCEALED, (still unloaded) then it can be transported in plain site (ie. not concealed). Read the laws. That is what I am pointing out.


POSSESSION AND TRANSPORTATION OF CONCEALED WEAPONS

Carrying a Concealed Handgun Without a License on One's Person or Concealed in a Vehicle Pursuant to Penal Code section 12025, a person is guilty of carrying a concealed firearm when he or she does any of the following:

Carries concealed within any vehicle which is under his or her control, any pistol, revolver, or other firearm capable of being concealed upon the person.

Carries concealed upon his or her person any pistol, revolver, or other firearm capable of being concealed upon the person.

Causes to be carried concealed within any vehicle in which he or she is an occupant any pistol, revolver, or other firearm capable of being concealed upon the person.

NOTE: A firearm carried openly in a belt holster is not considered "concealed" as it applies to the above prohibition. (Penal Code 12025(f).)


Section 12025 does not apply to or affect any of the following:

Any citizen of the United States or legal resident over the age of 18 years who resides or is temporarily within this state, and who is not prohibited from owning or possessing firearms pursuant to Penal Code sections 12021 or 12021.1 or section

8100 or 8101 of the Welfare and Institutions Code, may carry, either openly or concealed, anywhere within his or her place of business, or on private property owned or lawfully possessed by him or her any pistol, revolver, or other firearm capable of being concealed upon the person. A permit or license to purchase, own, possess, keep, or carry is not required under these circumstances. (Penal Code 12026.)

The transportation or carrying of any pistol, revolver, or other firearm capable of being concealed upon the person by any citizen of the United States over the age of

18 years who resides or is temporarily within this state, and is not within the excepted classes prescribed by Penal Code sections 12021 or 12021.1 or Welfare and Institutions Code sections 8100 or 8103, provided that the following applies:

- the firearm is within a motor vehicle and it is locked in the vehicle's trunk or in a locked container in the vehicle other than the utility or glove compartment; and

- when the firearm is carried by the person to or from any motor vehicle for any lawful purpose, the firearm must be contained in a locked container while being physically carried. (Penal Code 12026.1.)



Now I also agree that depending on where one is (in LA vs. out traveling forest roads), that open carry is probably not the most prudent thing to do if it attracts attention.

Now you state that long guns need to be covered, please show me the PC that states this. You will not find it. So before you run off accusing someone of breaking a law, please make sure you understand the law first!

Hunter
07-06-2006, 12:20 PM
And for those who like to see this in writing I have pasted the FAQ from Calgunlaws website covering the items VeryCoolCat and I have been going back and forth over for all to see:

Can a handgun be transported in a motor vehicle. without a concealed weapon permit if it is carried in plain sight?
Technically, as long as the handgun is not loaded and is not even partially concealed from view in any way (such as half way under the seat or being concealed inside a holster or a non-locking gun case) the answer is yes. But this manner of transporting a handgun may result in unnecessary problems and legal expenses. Carrying an unloaded handgun in plain sight in the passenger compartment is not advised. If carried in plain sight, it might be noticed when you stop for gas or use a drive-through lane at a fast food restaurant. A passerby or clerk might overreact and call the police, resulting in an unnecessary as well as potentially dangerous encounter. The visible presence of a handgun makes many people nervous and many law enforcement officers will take custody of the firearm pending an investigation of the circumstances. It is even possible that the person transporting a handgun in this manner may be accused of a crime.

Can I continually carry a handgun in my car in a locked container other than the utility or glove compartment for self-defense? I do not have a concealed weapons permit.
No. The legal authorization to transport a concealed handgun without a permit unloaded and in a motor vehicle's trunk or a separate locked container in Penal Code Section 12026.1 applies only while going to or from the specific places, and for the specific purposes, identified in Penal Code Section 12026.2 (going hunting, to or from a range, etc.). It is illegal to carry a concealed handgun without a permit for general purposes, such as self defense, even though the firearm is transported in the trunk of a motor vehicle or in a separate locked container. Section 12026.1 is not very clear on this point, but Section 12026.2 is, so it is prudent to read them together. Again, handguns being lawfully transported concealed in a motor vehicle's trunk or in a separate locked container cannot be loaded nor can ammunition be attached to them in any manner.


How can I legally transport a handgun in a motor vehicle if I don't have a permit to carry one concealed? Also, what about on a motorcycle, in a private airplane, in a boat, or in a knapsack?
With certain exceptions, a concealed handgun can legally be transported within a motor vehicle without a permit only by carrying it: 1) unloaded and 2) locked in the vehicle's trunk or in a separate locked container other than the utility or glove compartment. If the vehicle does not have a trunk, it must be carried in a locked container separate from the utility or glove compartment. Ammunition cannot be attached to the handgun in any manner. NOTE: These additional requirements also apply to the transportation of "assault weapons." Sections 12025, 12026 P.C. State law does not specifically say how to legally transport a concealed handgun without a concealed weapon permit on a motorcycle, in a private airplane, in a boat, or in a knapsack. Nothing in case law can be relied upon to explain the law's requirements. Penal Code Section 12026.1 (a)(2) states that a handgun may be legally carried to and from a motor vehicle concealed without a permit as long as it is carried "directly to and from any motor vehicle for any lawful purpose and, while carrying the firearm, the firearm is contained within a locked container." In the absence of more specific provisions in the codes, people who transport a handgun concealed without a permit on a motorcycle, plane, or boat could probably avoid law enforcement problems by carrying the handgun in a separate "locked container."


How can I legally transport rifles, shotguns, and ammunition in a motor vehicle?
Rifles and shotguns can be carried either openly or concealed within a motor vehicle as long as they are not loaded. However, registered rifles and shotguns on the list of regulated "assault weapons" must be transported in a motor vehicle in the same manner as that required for transporting handguns. There is no prohibition in the state codes against also carrying ammunition within the same motor vehicle or within the same compartment of a motor vehicle, as long as the firearms are not loaded and ammunition is not attached in any manner to the firearm. Sections 12025, 12026, 12031 P.C.

dreamwarrior22
07-06-2006, 1:42 PM
· Can I continually carry a handgun in my car in a locked container other than the utility or glove compartment for self-defense? I do not have a concealed weapons permit.
No. The legal authorization to transport a concealed handgun without a permit unloaded and in a motor vehicle's trunk or a separate locked container in Penal Code Section 12026.1 applies only while going to or from the specific places, and for the specific purposes, identified in Penal Code Section 12026.2 (going hunting, to or from a range, etc.). It is illegal to carry a concealed handgun without a permit for general purposes, such as self defense, even though the firearm is transported in the trunk of a motor vehicle or in a separate locked container. Section 12026.1 is not very clear on this point, but Section 12026.2 is, so it is prudent to read them together. Again, handguns being lawfully transported concealed in a motor vehicle's trunk or in a separate locked container cannot be loaded nor can ammunition be attached to them in any manner.

This is what we're arguing here. This is actually WRONG. Section 12025 deals with CONCEALED carry. Section 12026.1 and 12026.2 are situations where 12025 does not apply to. If 12025 deals with concealed carry ONLY, why would you apply 12026 to non-concealed carry? You shouldn't. Does that make sense?

Which means the following...

You CAN carry concealed (on your body) in your car if you are driving to go hunting/fishing/shooting/etc. But the gun must not be loaded and you must not have ammo on you. You can still have a gun and ammo in the same bag in the trunk of the car. It does not have to be locked if the trunk and passenger area are locked apart. If you carried it in an SUV you would then have to keep your gun in a case/bag locked since the trunk of the SUV is open to the passenger area. If you're carrying in a truck bed it's gotta be in a locked container. Once you arrive at your destination and partake in the activity, you can have a concealed loaded weapon on you as long as it's otherwise legal according to park/range rules.

The definition of loaded is different for when you're driving and when you're outside. Outside you can never carry a gun and ammo in the same bag without a license unless you have a specific purpose. And the only time that you can carry a loaded weapon concealed on you is when you're participating in an activity like above or if you have a license.

And as for carrying your gun unloaded in a trunk, you can do it all day long no matter where you're going because none of the laws prohibit it. If you are not transporting the gun concealed on your body or anywhere but in the trunk, section 12026.1/2 DOES NOT apply to you.

This is how most of you are misinterpreting things...you are reading 12026.2 without noticing that it specifically applies only to 12025 without taking into consideration what 12025 is actually talking about.

Hunter had it right the first time.

Calguns CA gun laws interpretations are not good enough. The NRA interpretations are not good enough either. Even the official CA gun laws summary does not go into enough detail. You need to read the actual penal codes, especially 12025 and 12026. I read them 20 times over before I even bought a gun, then I read them 20 times over again after I bought my gun and everytime something like this comes up I read them again to make sure that I'm actually right.

http://caag.state.ca.us/firearms/dwcl/dwc.htm

HOWEVER, I am told that in some counties you cannot carry your gun in your trunk anywhere you want? I don't know if this is true or not (probably not, though the cops may harass you) but I would check into your local ordinances.

Librarian
07-06-2006, 1:47 PM
Speaking of official language, where in the law does it say that handguns have to be taken directly to and from the range? This seems to be widely believed, but I've never been able to find the language that requires that. PC 12026.2 (http://www.leginfo.ca.gov/cgi-bin/waisgate?WAISdocID=2219048174+0+0+0&WAISaction=retrieve). (Fixed the link, I hope...)

It's more than just 'to the range', and it states (c) This section does not prohibit or limit the otherwise lawful carrying or transportation of any pistol, revolver, or other firearm capable of being concealed upon the person in accordance with this chapter.It appears to mean approximately that you can take concealable weapons (properly unloaded and locked in a case) from home to anyplace where you are legally able to possess or use one, and then back home. It also appears to believe that each one of these trips is a specific occasion (as opposed to an ongoing condition), which is why I don't believe carrying a concealable firearm around in one's car 'all the time' is legal without CCW. For example: If you actually went to the range every day, that should be fine; if you can carry at work, moving the weapon from home to your place of business and back every day should also be OK.

As always, use your best judgement, and consult real legal professionals for more-or-less reliable answers.

Librarian
07-06-2006, 2:11 PM
dreamwarrior22, it's just my opinion, but I think you've missed something.

First, the problem of 12025 is concealed:12025. (a) A person is guilty of carrying a concealed firearm when
he or she does any of the following:
(1) Carries concealed within any vehicle which is under his or her
control or direction any pistol, revolver, or other firearm capable
of being concealed upon the person.
(2) Carries concealed upon his or her person any pistol, revolver,
or other firearm capable of being concealed upon the person.
(3) Causes to be carried concealed within any vehicle in which he
or she is an occupant any pistol, revolver, or other firearm capable
of being concealed upon the person.In the trunk is concealed - the weapon is not visible. In a locked case is concealed - the weapon is not visible.

12026.1 says essentially that a locked trunk substitutes for the locked case.

12026.2 is a listing of a bunch of 'lawful purposes', during which carrying a concealed weapon will not be subject to 12025 and where (c) says the list is not exclusive.

Can I continually carry a handgun in my car in a locked container other than the utility or glove compartment for self-defense? I do not have a concealed weapons permit.The answer here, as you quoted, is not ambiguous, and not wrong on its face. It is entirely consistent with taking all of 12025 and 12026 into consideration. It's certainly the way CADOJ interprets the law, and we're aware there is some inconsistency in their interpretations from one section to the next.

But the real answer is hire a lawyer and get an answer from someone trusted.

Hunter
07-06-2006, 2:53 PM
This is what we're arguing here. This is actually WRONG. Section 12025 deals with CONCEALED carry. Section 12026.1 and 12026.2 are situations where 12025 does not apply to. If 12025 deals with concealed carry ONLY, why would you apply 12026 to non-concealed carry? You shouldn't. Does that make sense?


dreamwarrior22:

Just so you know, the FAQ I posted is from one of California's top firearm law firms and how they intrepret the meaning of the laws. For background, they post:

This site is operated and maintained by the law firm of Trutanich-Michel, LLP, the largest law firm practicing firearm and related law West of the Mississippi. We are pleased to offer this public service to California citizens who choose to own a gun for sport, hunting, or to defend themselves or their families.


So if they see/interpret the laws this way, I'm note sure you will be able to convince a DA of your view point.

More information on the various gun laws and how a firearm attorney reads them can be found at:
http://calgunlaws.com

vonsmith
07-06-2006, 2:56 PM
Speaking of official language, where in the law does it say that handguns have to be taken directly to and from the range? This seems to be widely believed, but I've never been able to find the language that requires that.

This page doesn't mention it: http://ag.ca.gov/firearms/travel.htm.

Excerpt from: http://caag.state.ca.us/firearms/dwcl/dwc.htm

12026.1. (a) Section 12025 shall not be construed to prohibit any citizen of the United States over the age of 18 years who resides or is temporarily within this state, and who is not within the excepted classes prescribed by Section 12021 or 12021.1 of this code or Section 8100 or 8103 of the Welfare and Institutions Code, from transporting or carrying any pistol, revolver, or other firearm capable of being concealed upon the person, provided that the following applies to the firearm:
(1) The firearm is within a motor vehicle and it is locked in the vehicle's trunk or in a locked container in the vehicle other than the utility or glove compartment.
(2) The firearm is carried by the person directly to or from any motor vehicle for any lawful purpose and, while carrying the firearm, the firearm is contained within a locked container.
(b) The provisions of this section do not prohibit or limit the otherwise lawful carrying or transportation of any pistol, revolver, or other firearm capable of being concealed upon the person in accordance with this chapter.
(c) As used in this section, "locked container" means a secure container which is fully enclosed and locked by a padlock, key lock, combination lock, or similar locking device.

12026.2. (a) Section 12025 does not apply to, or affect, any of the following:
(1) The possession of a firearm by an authorized participant in a motion picture, television, or video production or entertainment event when the participant lawfully uses the firearm as part of that production or event or while going directly to, or coming directly from, that production or event.
(2) The possession of a firearm in a locked container by a member of any club or organization, organized for the purpose of lawfully collecting and lawfully displaying pistols, revolvers, or other firearms, while the member is at meetings of the clubs or organizations or while going directly to, and coming directly from, those meetings.
(3) The transportation of a firearm by a participant when going directly to, or coming directly from, a recognized safety or hunter safety class, or a recognized sporting event involving that firearm.
(4) The transportation of a firearm by a person listed in Section 12026 directly between any of the places mentioned in Section 12026.
(5) The transportation of a firearm by a person when going directly to, or coming directly from, a fixed place of business or private residential property for the purpose of the lawful repair or the lawful transfer, sale, or loan of that firearm.
(6) The transportation of a firearm by a person listed in Section 12026 when going directly from the place where that person lawfully received that firearm to that person's place of residence or place of business or to private property owned or lawfully possessed by that person.
(7) The transportation of a firearm by a person when going directly to, or coming directly from, a gun show, swap meet, or similar event to which the public is invited, for the purpose of displaying that firearm in a lawful manner.
(8) The transportation of a firearm by an authorized employee or agent of a supplier of firearms when going directly to, or coming directly from, a motion picture, television, or video production or entertainment event for the purpose of providing that firearm to an authorized participant to lawfully use as a part of that production or event.
(9) The transportation of a firearm by a person when going directly to, or coming directly from, a target range, which holds a regulatory or business license, for the purposes of practicing shooting at targets with that firearm at that target range.
(10) The transportation of a firearm by a person when going directly to, or coming directly from, a place designated by a person authorized to issue licenses pursuant to Section 12050 when done at the request of the issuing agency so that the issuing agency can determine whether or not a license should be issued to that person to carry that firearm.
(11) The transportation of a firearm by a person when going directly to, or coming directly from, a lawful camping activity for the purpose of having that firearm available for lawful personal protection while at the lawful campsite. This paragraph shall not be construed to override the statutory authority granted to the Department of Parks and Recreation or any other state or local governmental agencies to promulgate rules and regulations governing the administration of parks and campgrounds.
(12) The transportation of a firearm by a person in order to comply with subdivision (c) or (i) of Section 12078 as it pertains to that firearm.
(13) The transportation of a firearm by a person in order to utilize subdivision (l) of Section 12078 as it pertains to that firearm.
(14) The transportation of a firearm by a person when going directly to, or coming directly from, a gun show or event, as defined in Section 478.100 of Title 27 of the Code of Federal Regulations, for the purpose of lawfully transferring, selling, or loaning that firearm in accordance with subdivision (d) of Section 12072.
(15) The transportation of a firearm by a person in order to utilize paragraph (6) of subdivision (a) of Section 12078 as it pertains to that firearm.
(16) The transportation of a firearm by a person who finds the firearm in order to comply with Article 1 (commencing with Section 2080) of Chapter 4 of Division 3 of the Civil Code as it pertains to that firearm and if that firearm is being transported to a law enforcement agency, the person gives prior notice to the law enforcement agency that he or she is transporting the firearm to the law enforcement agency.
(17) The transportation of a firearm by a person in order to comply with paragraph (2) of subdivision (f) of Section 12072 as it pertains to that firearm.
(18) The transportation of a firearm by a person who finds the firearm and is transporting it to a law enforcement agency for disposition according to the law, if he or she gives prior notice to the law enforcement agency that he or she is transporting the firearm to the law enforcement agency for disposition according to law.
(19) The transportation of a firearm by a person in order to comply with paragraph (3) of subdivision (f) of Section 12072 as it pertains to that firearm.
(20) The transportation of a firearm by a person for the purpose of obtaining an identification number or mark assigned for that firearm from the Department of Justice pursuant to Section 12092.
(b) In order for a firearm to be exempted under subdivision (a), while being transported to or from a place, the firearm shall be unloaded, kept in a locked container, as defined in subdivision (d), and the course of travel shall include only those deviations between authorized locations as are reasonably necessary under the circumstances.
(c) This section does not prohibit or limit the otherwise lawful carrying or transportation of any pistol, revolver, or other firearm capable of being concealed upon the person in accordance with this chapter.
(d) As used in this section, "locked container" means a secure container which is fully enclosed and locked by a padlock, key lock, combination lock, or similar locking device. The term "locked container" does not include the utility or glove compartment of a motor vehicle.

I think it's in there somewhere. I've figured out before. I'll let you dig through and find it. You may have to look at the total text at the web URL I provided since so many items refer back to other sections.

As I recall the section above and perhaps other sections essentially limit you to transport concealable firearms from one place to another and do not allow for carrying a concealable firearm in your vehicle continuously. Of course any time you are stopped and an LEO wants to know where you're going with the pistol you should be honest and tell him you're going to the range.

I think for transporting in a motor home the vehicle is considered your residence so slightly different requirements may apply. But never ever have a loaded concealable firearm within your control when on the road.

Disclaimer: This information is provided for entertainment purposes only. Resemblance to any laws, living or dead, is purely coincidental. Your mileage may vary.


=vonsmith=

bwiese
07-06-2006, 3:06 PM
Yeah, you can't drive around w/a handgun all day. You have to have a specific destination.

Why? Because the structure of the law is that you can't, in general, transport concelable firearms UNLESS they are locked & unloaded, and you're in transit to a destination where these are OK.

That is the law bans just about everything w/conceable firearms, and then offers certain openings for transport.

dreamwarrior22
07-06-2006, 3:46 PM
PC 12026.2 (http://www.leginfo.ca.gov/cgi-bin/waisgate?WAISdocID=2219048174+0+0+0&WAISaction=retrieve). (Fixed the link, I hope...)

It's more than just 'to the range', and it states It appears to mean approximately that you can take concealable weapons (properly unloaded and locked in a case) from home to anyplace where you are legally able to possess or use one, and then back home. It also appears to believe that each one of these trips is a specific occasion (as opposed to an ongoing condition), which is why I don't believe carrying a concealable firearm around in one's car 'all the time' is legal without CCW. For example: If you actually went to the range every day, that should be fine; if you can carry at work, moving the weapon from home to your place of business and back every day should also be OK.

As always, use your best judgement, and consult real legal professionals for more-or-less reliable answers.

Yes but again, 12026.2 specifically limits 12025. It does not deal with general prohibitions.


12025. (a) A person is guilty of carrying a concealed firearm when he or she does any of the following:
(1) Carries concealed within any vehicle which is under his or her control or direction any pistol, revolver, or other firearm capable of being concealed upon the person.
(2) Carries concealed[b] upon his or her person any pistol, revolver, or other firearm capable of being concealed upon the person.
(3) Causes to be [b]carried concealed within any vehicle in which he or she is an occupant any pistol, revolver, or other firearm capable of being concealed upon the


Right here they are talking ONLY if you actually CONCEAL the weapon. If the weapon is locked in the trunk or in a case, 12025 (and therefore 12026) does not apply at all since when it is locked in the trunk or a case, it is no longer being concealed since the law specifically points out that carrying a weapon in the truck does not count as carrying concealed.

You can carry your gun in a IWB holster unloaded as long as you're going to the range and coming back from it. What you can't do is carry it in your holster on your body just going anywhere.

dreamwarrior22
07-06-2006, 3:51 PM
Yeah, you can't drive around w/a handgun all day. You have to have a specific destination.

Why? Because the structure of the law is that you can't, in general, transport concelable firearms UNLESS they are locked & unloaded, and you're in transit to a destination where these are OK.

That is the law bans just about everything w/conceable firearms, and then offers certain openings for transport.


12026.1. (a) Section 12025 shall not be construed to prohibit any citizen of the United States over the age of 18 years who resides or is temporarily within this state, and who is not within the excepted classes prescribed by Section 12021 or 12021.1 of this code or Section 8100 or 8103 of the Welfare and Institutions Code, from transporting or carrying any pistol, revolver, or other firearm capable of being concealed upon the person, provided that the following applies to the firearm:
(1) The firearm is within a motor vehicle and it is locked in the vehicle's trunk or in a locked container in the vehicle other than the utility or glove compartment.


Translation 1: 12025 does not apply to 1) those who keep a gun in the trunk. The trunk must be locked. The gun itself does not have to be because the trunk is a lock itself. You can also carry the gun in a locked case in the passenger section, but the utility and glove compartments don't count.

Translation 2 : If (1) is true, then you are not guilty of violating 12025 which talks only about concealed weapons. The reason you are not guilty is because (1) is not considered concealed.

FYI "capable of being concealed" doesn't mean all small guns that can be hidden on you. It means guns that are within reach and not locked up. A gun in the trunk is not capable of being concealed since it's not within reach.

dreamwarrior22
07-06-2006, 3:58 PM
Excerpt from: http://caag.state.ca.us/firearms/dwcl/dwc.htm


12026.2. (a) Section 12025 does not apply to, or affect, any of the following:
[COLOR="DarkSlateBlue"] (9) The transportation of a firearm by a person when going directly to, or coming directly from, a target range, which holds a regulatory or business license, for the purposes of practicing shooting at targets with that firearm at that target range.


12025 = concealed weapons violations
12026.2 = 12025 does not apply to the following situations

You are reading 12026.2 as if it's its own stand alone laws that apply generally instead of specifically to 12025.

This is what you're interpreting it to mean:
"The transportation of a firearm by a person [is illegal] unless when going directly to, or coming directly from, a target range, which holds a regulatory or business license, for the purposes of practicing shooting at targets with that firearm at that target range. " aka "Carrying a firearm in your car is illegal except for when..."


This is what it actually says when you add the fact that 12026 only applies to limitations of 12025:
"The transportation of a firearm by a person when going directly to, or coming directly from, a target range, which holds a regulatory or business license, for the purposes of practicing shooting at targets with that firearm at that target range [is legal and not considered a violation of carrying a concealed weapon]. " aka "Carrying concealed is illegal except for when..."

Since carrying in the trunk is not considered concealed, this will not apply to you.

dreamwarrior22
07-06-2006, 4:01 PM
dreamwarrior22:

Just so you know, the FAQ I posted is from one of California's top firearm law firms and how they intrepret the meaning of the laws. For background, they post:


So if they see/interpret the laws this way, I'm note sure you will be able to convince a DA of your view point.

More information on the various gun laws and how a firearm attorney reads them can be found at:
http://calgunlaws.com

I've read several interpretations which are often not up to date or even consistent.

You should not be trying to interpret or assume anything. The law is very black and white unless specifically stated.

dreamwarrior22
07-06-2006, 4:05 PM
dreamwarrior22, it's just my opinion, but I think you've missed something.

First, the problem of 12025 is concealed:In the trunk is concealed - the weapon is not visible. In a locked case is concealed - the weapon is not visible.


No, a weapon is not concealed when it is in a locked case. 12026.1 specifically says this.
12026.1. (a) Section 12025 shall not be construed to prohibit any citizen...
1)The firearm is within a motor vehicle and it is locked in the vehicle's trunk

This means that 1) is not in violation of 12025 aka 1) is not a violation of concealed carry. 1) is NOT considered concealed carry.

In the trunk = not concealed. PERIOD.

dreamwarrior22
07-06-2006, 4:10 PM
last one..

12025. (a) A person is guilty of carrying a concealed firearm when
he or she does any of the following:
(1) Carries concealed within any vehicle which is under his or her
control or direction any pistol, revolver, or other firearm capable
of being concealed upon the person.
(2) Carries concealed upon his or her person any pistol, revolver,
or other firearm capable of being concealed upon the person.
(3) Causes to be carried concealed within any vehicle in which he
or she is an occupant any pistol, revolver, or other firearm capable
of being concealed upon the person.

Alright here you can assume that 12025 does mean that if a gun is carried in a vehicle's trunk it is concealed. HOWEVER, fast forward to 12026.1 where it specifically says that carrying a gun in the trunk DOES NOT mean that it's a violation of 12025, therefore when you carry in the trunk it is not considered a concealed weapons violation. If there was no 12026.1, then yes carrying in the trunk all day going nowhere would be illegal. But 12026.1 specifically states that the manner of concealing a weapon in the trunk of a car does not count as a concealed weapons violation.

12026.2 then talks about when you are legally able to conceal a gun ON you. It says that you can carry it concealed while driving to go fishing, but it must be unloaded. 12026.2 overrides 12025, not 12026.1. If 12026.2 was written to override 12026.1, THEN it would not be legal to carry a gun all day in your trunk

The law does not say "carrying a gun in the trunk is ok" and then say "carrying a gun in the trunk is only ok when you go fishing." First of all it does not say that but even if it did can you see how it the latter would completely invalidate the former? It would render all of 12026.1 useless so why would he even have it? That doesn't make any sense does it?

THIS is what it REALLY says:

12025. Carrying a concealed weapon is illegal, such as carrying it on you or in the passenger section
12026.1 Carrying it in the trunk is not considered illegal
12026.2 Carrying a concealed weapon is legal when such as you are going fishing

Let's say you are carrying it in the trunk. 12025 is written. Now it's illegal. Later on 12026.1 is written. It's no longer illegal. Later on 12026.2 is written. 12026.2 doesn't even apply to you because you've already been freed by 12026.1.

Now let's say you are carrying it concealed in a holster to go fishing. 12025 makes it illegal. 12026.1 doesn't help you out. 12026.2 makes it legal.

vonsmith
07-06-2006, 4:24 PM
dreamwarrior22,
It sounds like we have some lawyers on this web site. I don't think the law is "very black and white". Maybe it is, but you have to convince an LEO that's the case. He may not agree. I'm 99% sure the judge will agree with you though if only to move on to the next case.

I generally don't split hairs on topics like this. I recommend to people what I'm comfortable doing. I take a conservative approach that I'm pretty sure doesn't leave much doubt about my legal position. That's why I don't carry an unloaded concealable firearm in my truck unless I'm going to/coming from a "designated" location. I lock my handguns in a range bag and keep my ammo in a separate tool box. I don't even load my magazines ahead of time. I'm sure there's more I could "get away with" if I read the fine print in the law. It's just not worth the bother to me. I'm legal, probably more than legal, and I sleep better at night because of it.


=vonsmith=

Librarian
07-06-2006, 4:35 PM
Yes but again, 12026.2 specifically limits 12025. It does not deal with general prohibitions. 12025 is a general prohibition.

Right here they are talking ONLY if you actually CONCEAL the weapon. If the weapon is locked in the trunk or in a case, 12025 (and therefore 12026) does not apply at all since when it is locked in the trunk or a case, it is no longer being concealed since the law specifically points out that carrying a weapon in the truck does not count as carrying concealed. Not true - I have no idea how you can believe that a weapon present but not visible is not 'concealed'. Carrying a weapon in the trunk or in a locked case, otherwise following the rule, is an exception from prosecution for carrying a concealable weapon concealed.

You can carry your gun in a IWB holster unloaded as long as you're going to the range and coming back from it. What you can't do is carry it in your holster on your body just going anywhere.No - can't carry concealed at all without locked case or trunk (or CCW); can't carry in a vehicle, concealed - does not have to be on your person. Open carry is a different issue, which you've covered.
[oops - too dogmatic, there are 2 notable exceptions:12027 (f) Members of any club or organization organized for the purpose
of practicing shooting at targets upon established target ranges,
whether public or private, while the members are using pistols,
revolvers, or other firearms capable of being concealed upon the
person upon the target ranges, or transporting these firearms
unloaded when going to and from the ranges.
(g) Licensed hunters or fishermen carrying pistols, revolvers, or
other firearms capable of being concealed upon the person while
engaged in hunting or fishing, or transporting those firearms
unloaded when going to or returning from the hunting or fishing
expedition. Both say unloaded CONCEALED to and from the activity is not a violation of 12025.)

12026.2 then talks about when you are legally able to conceal a gun ON you. It says that you can carry it concealed while driving to go fishing, but it must be unloaded. 12026.2 overrides 12025, not 12026.1. If 12026.2 was written to override 12026.1, THEN it would not be legal to carry a gun all day in your trunk.
I don't think so. Both 12026.1 and 12061.2 modify 12025. And 12026.2 is not restricted to carrying on your person:12026.2
(b) In order for a firearm to be exempted under subdivision (a),
while being transported to or from a place, the firearm shall be
unloaded, kept in a locked container, as defined in subdivision (d),
and the course of travel shall include only those deviations between
authorized locations as are reasonably necessary under the
circumstances.
(c) This section does not prohibit or limit the otherwise lawful
carrying or transportation of any pistol, revolver, or other firearm
capable of being concealed upon the person in accordance with this
chapter.
(d) As used in this section, "locked container" means a secure
container which is fully enclosed and locked by a padlock, keylock,
combination lock, or similar locking device. The term "locked
container" does not include the utility or glove compartment of a
motor vehicle.

Best legal advice I've seen, annd the plain language of the statutes, says concealable handguns bother the blissninnies, and one can't carry them around concealed without CCW unless the occasion is, or is similar to, one of the 12026.2(a) exceptions.

Again I say, hire a lawyer; the risk of detection is small, but the risk of losing fireams rights if convicted on a 12025 charge seems pretty big to me.

I'll also refer you to Machtinger's How to Own a Gun & Stay Out of Jail - California Edition (http://www.homestead.com/gunlawpress/OurPublications.html); he is a lawyer, he is giving legal advice, and chapter 2 is 30 pages or so about the topic - and I believe I have fairly summarized his content. (changed the link to point to Machtinger's web site - support the guy, not Amazon!)

dreamwarrior22
07-06-2006, 5:16 PM
12025 is a general prohibition.

Not true - I have no idea how you can believe that a weapon present but not visible is not 'concealed'. Carrying a weapon in the trunk or in a locked case, otherwise following the rule, is an exception from prosecution for carrying a concealable weapon concealed.

Carrying in the trunk may be considered concealed under 12025, but 12026.1 specifically states that carrying in the trunk is OK so it's NOT a violation of carrying a concealed. Weapon.


No - can't carry concealed at all without locked case or trunk (or CCW); can't carry in a vehicle, concealed - does not have to be on your person. Open carry is a different issue, which you've covered.


(b) In order for a firearm to be exempted under subdivision (a), while being transported to or from a place, the firearm shall be unloaded, kept in a locked container, as defined in subdivision (d), and the course of travel shall include only those deviations between authorized locations as are reasonably necessary under the circumstances.

ok, you're right about that.

I don't think so. Both 12026.1 and 12061.2 modify 12025. And 12026.2 is not restricted to carrying on your person:

12025 says what is illegal. 12026.1 limits 12025. 12026.2 also limits 12025. 12025 only deals with concealed carry. 12026.2 ONLY applies to situations for 12025.

12026.2. (a) Section 12025 does not apply to, or affect, any of the following: 1,2,3.....
(b) In order for a firearm to be exempted under subdivision (a), while being transported to or from a place, the firearm shall be unloaded, kept in a locked container, as defined in subdivision (d), and the course of travel shall include only those deviations between authorized locations as are reasonably necessary under the circumstances.
(c) This section does not prohibit or limit the otherwise lawful carrying or transportation of any pistol, revolver, or other firearm capable of being concealed upon the person in accordance with this chapter.
(d) As used in this section, "locked container" means a secure container which is fully enclosed and locked by a padlock, key lock, combination lock, or similar locking device. The term "locked container" does not include the utility or glove compartment of a motor vehicle.

I don't see why you would think that 12026.2 is its own stand alone law when it specifically says that it only prohibits violations of 12025 which is concealed carry violations and especially when 12026.2 (c) even clarifies that this is not a stand alone law.

Librarian
07-06-2006, 5:33 PM
Carrying in the trunk may be considered concealed under 12025, but 12026.1 specifically states that carrying in the trunk is OK so it's NOT a violation of carrying a concealed. Weapon.
....

I don't see why you would think that 12026.2 is its own stand alone law when it specifically says that it only prohibits violations of 12025 which is concealed carry violations and especially when 12026.2 (c) even clarifies that this is not a stand alone law.But in the trunk is still concealed, and carrying concealed has to ALSO meet the restrictions of 12026.2. It seems you don't believe it's possible for ALL OF 12025, 12026.1 and .2 to apply at the same time.

I don't think we're going to agree here. That's OK - each one must act as he sees fit.

But when Machtinger, Michel, and Peter Alan Kasler all come to the same conclusion on California gun laws, I listen closely.

(I also say, pick a shotgun or something like an SKS - then all the concealable weapons stuff does not apply. Wait...that's what post #11 in this thread says...)

dreamwarrior22
07-06-2006, 8:17 PM
But in the trunk is still concealed, and carrying concealed has to ALSO meet the restrictions of 12026.2. It seems you don't believe it's possible for ALL OF 12025, 12026.1 and .2 to apply at the same time.

I don't think we're going to agree here. That's OK - each one must act as he sees fit.

But when Machtinger, Michel, and Peter Alan Kasler all come to the same conclusion on California gun laws, I listen closely.

(I also say, pick a shotgun or something like an SKS - then all the concealable weapons stuff does not apply. Wait...that's what post #11 in this thread says...)
12026.1 specifically states that carrying in the trunk is not an offense regardless of what you are doing. 12026.2 does not prohibit anything at all. What it does is tell you what is legal in contradiction to 12025. 12025 is the only real "law" that calls certain situations illegal. 12026.x do not PROHIBIT anything further. They offer ALLOWANCES.

You are referencing a non-prohibiting penal code to prove that something is supposedly prohibited. Unless those penal codes actually prohibit anything, you've got nothing to stand on.

Laws also change every year. Many things that Mach says in his 2002 book aren't true today. I don't know how much has changed in his new book.

Librarian
07-06-2006, 10:18 PM
12026.1 specifically states that carrying in the trunk is not an offense regardless of what you are doing. 12026.2 does not prohibit anything at all. What it does is tell you what is legal in contradiction to 12025. 12025 is the only real "law" that calls certain situations illegal. 12026.x do not PROHIBIT anything further. They offer ALLOWANCES. "regardless of what you are doing." ? For example, if you carry a firearm in your car trunk onto a school campus, and you don't have CCW or permission of the CEO, you have committed a crime. That's nothing to do with concealed, of course, but it does suggest your expression is overbroad.

You are referencing a non-prohibiting penal code to prove that something is supposedly prohibited. Unless those penal codes actually prohibit anything, you've got nothing to stand on.

12025 does the prohibiting - 12026.1 and .2 are exceptions to the prohibition of 12025.

I don't know why it is so hard to accept that 12025, 12026, 12026.1 and 12026.2 are a "package" - you can't leave any of them out.

But I've already acknowledged you and I will not likely agree here, so I won't trouble you any more; we've come full circle.

Welcome to the group, anyway - this was a quick way to get your post count up!

Laws also change every year. Many things that Mach says in his 2002 book aren't true today. I don't know how much has changed in his new book.Not this section - I gave the link to his web site, there's a list of changes to the books based on new laws.

mdimeo
07-07-2006, 10:33 AM
Hmm, ok....

12025.a.(1) says you're guilty of carrying concealed if you "Carr[y] concealed within any vehicle which is under [your] control or direction any pistol, [etc.]"

Then 12026.a basically says "but you're ok if it's locked up *and* you carried it to your car locked up *and* you carried it to and from your car 'for any lawful purpose'".

dreamwarrior22: you seem to think that a handgun locked in the trunk is not carried concealed. Is that what you believe, or am I misinterpreting you? Can you back that up in relation to the text of the law?

Librarian: You seem to believe that legal self-defense doesn't count as a "lawful purpose" for purposes of 1026.a.(2). Is that what you believe? If so, can you back that up in relation to the text of the law?

Thanks guys; this is pretty interesting and I don't know which way to believe.

-m@


This is what we're arguing here. This is actually WRONG. Section 12025 deals with CONCEALED carry. Section 12026.1 and 12026.2 are situations where 12025 does not apply to. If 12025 deals with concealed carry ONLY, why would you apply 12026 to non-concealed carry? You shouldn't. Does that make sense?
...

Librarian
07-07-2006, 12:29 PM
Hmm, ok....Librarian: You seem to believe that legal self-defense doesn't count as a "lawful purpose" for purposes of 1026.a.(2). Is that what you believe? If so, can you back that up in relation to the text of the law?I'm pretty sure the Legislature believes that, based on the 'may issue' status of CCW. 'Self defense' in your home seems to be OK with them, thus 12026. Out of the home, it's CCW - where, presumably, a LEO does a background check and has some kind of local knowledge of the applicant - or nothing.

Edit to add: there's also an exception 12025.5. (a) A violation of Section 12025 is justifiable when a person who possesses a firearm reasonably believes that he or she is in grave danger because of circumstances forming the basis of a current restraining order...which leads me to believe the Legislature has considered self defense and does not find it something they support. [Edit: maybe 'don't support' is not quite right; it looks more like they're willing to look at specific, concrete threats, but don't believe in general preparedness.] Note that this section says it's justifiable, but still a violation - one should expect to be charged and tried.

My opinion wobbles between 'Vermont carry' and 'shall issue'; I actually don't mind being licensed to drive, for instance, because no one in his right mind thinks the license means anything about how well or safely one drives, and driving without a license isn't (apparently) treated as a major crime. IF CCW were like driver licenses - simple issue, honored nationally, no big deal, I wouldn't be particularly unhappy.

VeryCoolCat
07-07-2006, 1:28 PM
I know there is a law somewhere that states a requirement to keep an unloaded rifle COVERED while in a vehicle. It had something to do with the fact some guys put shotgun and rifle carriers inside the cab of their vehicles. Once i find it I will prove once and for all.

BTW the locked and carried conceal vs transporting is sumarized here by the DOJ themselves.

http://ag.ca.gov/firearms/travel.htm


12026.2 shows exemptions on CARRY CONCEALED. That if your participating in certain activities you have certain exemptions for example while hunting or while going to the range.
12026.2 states:
(c) This section does not prohibit or limit the otherwise lawful carrying or transportation of any pistol, revolver, or other firearm capable of being concealed upon the person in accordance with this chapter.

Therefore you CAN put a handgun in a locked box in your trunk as its being transported properly.

I'm a little confused on parts of 12026.2.

It basically exempts 12025(the concealed carry laws) while doing specific activities. According to the law exactly You can concealed carry if you are going camping, hunting or going to the range.... which goes against everything every other law or even law enforcement official has told me.


and 12026 exactly states:

12026. (a) Section 12025 shall not apply to or affect any citizen of the United States or legal resident over the age of 18 years who resides or is temporarily within this state, and who is not within the excepted classes prescribed by Section 12021 or 12021.1 of this code or Section 8100 or 8103 of the Welfare and Institutions Code, who carries, either openly or concealed, anywhere within the citizen's or legal resident's place of residence, place of business, or on private property owned or lawfully possessed by the citizen or legal resident any pistol, revolver, or other firearm capable of being concealed upon the person.
(b) No permit or license to purchase, own, possess, keep, or carry, either openly or concealed, shall be required of any citizen of the United States or legal resident over the age of 18 years who resides or is temporarily within this state, and who is not within the excepted classes prescribed by Section 12021 or 12021.1 of this code or Section 8100 or 8103 of the Welfare and Institutions Code, to purchase, own, possess, keep, or carry, either openly or concealed, a pistol, revolver, or other firearm capable of being concealed upon the person within the citizen's or legal resident's place of residence, place of business, or on private property owned or lawfully possessed by the citizen or legal resident.

bwiese
07-07-2006, 1:33 PM
I know there is a law somewhere that states a requirement to keep an unloaded rifle COVERED while in a vehicle.

No there is not.

Rifle in the proverbial pickup truck rack in rear window are entirely legal if unloaded.

These days in metro areas you might get the once over traffic stop, but it's entirely legal.