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View Full Version : Anyone check out this CA CCW forum?


tman
07-04-2006, 10:10 PM
http://californiaccw.org/


This thread is fairly interesting...
http://californiaccw.org/posts/list/105.page

He doesn't post the letter he wrote, but does post John McGinness's reply.

First he says this:
"...I understand and support the Second Amendment to the Constitution. I am also very mindful of the fact that states such as Arizona and Florida have experienced significant reduction in violent crime when citizens have been allowed to be armed.

Then, just a few lines lower, makes this ridiculous statement:
For example, OJ Simpson has never been convicted of a felony, yet I believe (as does the jury in his civil trial) that he murdered his ex-wife and her friend. I would not want Mr. Simpson to be in possession of a CCW with my signature on it.

So basically it seems as though his logic makes no sense.

If he acknowledges that crime rates go DOWN when citizens are armed, then points out and isolated incident that happened a long time ago (over 10 years now?) and uses it to contradict his own statement. Horrible misleading technique, yet, unfortunately that type of garbade is likely to be effective to many.

It may be late at night, but that doesn't seem to make much sense... Except from an anti-gun, fascist perspective...

Ford8N
07-05-2006, 5:17 AM
http://californiaccw.org/


This thread is fairly interesting...
http://californiaccw.org/posts/list/105.page

He doesn't post the letter he wrote, but does post John McGinness's reply.

First he says this:


Then, just a few lines lower, makes this ridiculous statement:


So basically it seems as though his logic makes no sense.

If he acknowledges that crime rates go DOWN when citizens are armed, then points out and isolated incident that happened a long time ago (over 10 years now?) and uses it to contradict his own statement. Horrible misleading technique, yet, unfortunately that type of garbade is likely to be effective to many.

It may be late at night, but that doesn't seem to make much sense... Except from an anti-gun, fascist perspective...


People like him are not logical. My state senator said the same thing. He admitted to me that "yes, crime rates do go down in states that have "shall issue" CCW's." Then he said that "Law enforcement tells me it is a bad thing...". So, in this state, our Law enforcement groups are telling our elected officials NOT to look at the facts or results of "shall issue" CCW.

tman
07-05-2006, 10:35 AM
One more thing...

I would not want Mr. Simpson to be in possession of a CCW with my signature on it.

What about the innocent, law abiding civilian who was a victim to a horrible crime which could have been prevented if that person had been carrying a weapon? What about that?

There would be a LOT more people like that, than there would be "OJ Simpson's" out there.


Maybe we should write another letter. Doubt it would help, but would be interested in the responce.

linuxgunner
07-05-2006, 11:59 PM
It's easy to criticize when you aren't in the sheriff's shoes.

Let's make up a scenario:

You're the sheriff.

There's some guy in your county who you know. You know him because he has been arrested several times for fights, disorders, threats, etc. In fact he has had a misdemeanor assault conviction. He hangs around known gang members or convicted criminals. He is known to be habitually drunk. The police come to his house once a week to break up parties. On and on. There are people like this! They do all kinds of things wrong, they are violent, they are dangerous, they are crazy, but they haven't quite yet crossed the threshold into "felony conviction" territory.

Would you issue a permit in a case like that? I wouldn't. Yes I know that Florida might let someone like that get a permit, and it doesn't seem to be causing any major problems, but if you were the sheriff and in a position to sign or not sign, I bet any one of us would probably not sign someone like that, if it really came down to it.

The cut-off is "felony conviction", and there are a whole lot of dangerous people who have documented dangerous conduct that have not yet entered the elite ranks of convicted felons.

paradox
07-06-2006, 6:00 AM
The cut-off is "felony conviction", and there are a whole lot of dangerous people who have documented dangerous conduct that have not yet entered the elite ranks of convicted felons.

The cut-off isn't a felony conviction:

any person who has been convicted of a misdemeanor
violation of Section 71, 76, 136.1, 136.5, or 140, subdivision (d) of
Section 148, Section 171b, 171c, 171d, 186.28, 240, 241, 242, 243,
244.5, 245, 245.5, 246.3, 247, 273.5, 273.6, 417, 417.6, 422, 626.9,
646.9, 12023, or 12024, subdivision (b) or (d) of Section 12034,
Section 12040, subdivision (b) of Section 12072, subdivision (a) of
former Section 12100, Section 12220, 12320, or 12590, or Section
8100, 8101, or 8103 of the Welfare and Institutions Code, any
firearm-related offense pursuant to Sections 871.5 and 1001.5 of the
Welfare and Institutions Code, or of the conduct punished in
paragraph (3) of subdivision (g) of Section 12072, and who, within 10
years of the conviction, owns, purchases, receives, or has in his or
her possession or under his or her custody or control, any firearm
is guilty of a public offense, which shall be punishable by
imprisonment in a county jail not exceeding one year or in the state
prison, by a fine not exceeding one thousand dollars ($1,000), or by
both that imprisonment and fine.

So your example person couldn't own a firearm, therefore couldn't get a CCW.

phobos512
07-06-2006, 9:29 AM
The cut-off isn't a felony conviction:



So your example person couldn't own a firearm, therefore couldn't get a CCW.

Except that the misdemeanor bit above is specific to certain things that relate specifically to firearms, does it not?

tman
07-06-2006, 9:34 AM
It's easy to criticize when you aren't in the sheriff's shoes.

Let's make up a scenario:

You're the sheriff.

There's some guy in your county who you know. You know him because he has been arrested several times for fights, disorders, threats, etc. In fact he has had a misdemeanor assault conviction. He hangs around known gang members or convicted criminals. He is known to be habitually drunk. The police come to his house once a week to break up parties. On and on. There are people like this! They do all kinds of things wrong, they are violent, they are dangerous, they are crazy, but they haven't quite yet crossed the threshold into "felony conviction" territory.

Would you issue a permit in a case like that? I wouldn't. Yes I know that Florida might let someone like that get a permit, and it doesn't seem to be causing any major problems, but if you were the sheriff and in a position to sign or not sign, I bet any one of us would probably not sign someone like that, if it really came down to it.

The cut-off is "felony conviction", and there are a whole lot of dangerous people who have documented dangerous conduct that have not yet entered the elite ranks of convicted felons.
Point taken...

However, permits are issued one by one. The kind of person you described sounds like he would have a reputation with local authorities. It would be easy to just denie him his permit.

paradox
07-06-2006, 12:00 PM
Except that the misdemeanor bit above is specific to certain things that relate specifically to firearms, does it not?

There is quite a bit more than just firearm related items:

PENAL CODE

71. Threatening any officer or employee of any public or private educational institution or any public officer or employee to do, or refrain from doing, any act in the performance of his duties.

76. (a) threatening the life of, or threatens serious bodily harm to, any elected public official, county public defender, county clerk, exempt appointee of the Governor, judge, or Deputy Commissioner of the Board of Prison Terms, or the staff, immediate family, or immediate family of the staff of any elected public official, county public defender, county clerk, exempt appointee of the Governor, judge, or Deputy Commissioner of the Board of Prison Terms

136.1 Threatening any witness in a court case

136.5 Having a deadly weapon with intent to use that weapon per 136.1

140. Threatening any witness or crime victim because they helped the police.

148. Taking a gun from an LEO.

171b. Bringing a weapon to a public meeting.

171c. Bringing a loaded firearm into the State Capitol, any legislative office, any office of the Governor or other constitutional officer, or any hearing room in which any committee of the Senate or Assembly is conducting a hearing, or upon the grounds of the State Capitol, which is bounded by 10th, L, 15th, and N Streets in the City of Sacramento.

171d. Bringing a loaded firearm to the Governor's Mansion, or any other residence of the Governor, the residence of any other constitutional officer, or the residence of any Member of the Legislature.

186.28. Giving a gun to someone you know will commit a felony who then commits that felony.

240. Assault: an unlawful attempt, coupled with a present ability, to commit a violent injury on the person of another.

241. Different kinds of assault.

242. Battery: any willful and unlawful use of force or violence upon the person of another.

243. Different kinds of battery.

244.5. Assaulting another with a stun gun or taser.

245. Assault with a deadly weapon.

245.5. Assault with a deadly weapon against a school employee engaged in their job.

246.3. Grossly negligent discharge of a firearm.

247. Discharging a firearm at an unoccupied, plane, motor vehicle, dwelling or building.

273.5. Domestic abuse.

273.6. Violating a protective order.

417. Brandishing a firearm or using a weapon other than a firearm in a fight (self defense exempted).

417.6. Hurting someone while doing 417.

422. Threatening someone verbally, in writing, or by electronic communications device with death or great bodily harm.

626.9. Bringing a firearm to a school.

646.9. Stalking another.

12023. Carrying a loaded firearm with intent to commit a felony.

12034. (b) Driver or owner of a vehicle permits another to discharge a firearm from the vehicle.
(d) Anyone who discharges a firearm from a vehicle.

12040. Carrying a firearm in a public place or public street while masked.

120702. Providing a handgun to someone under 21 or any gun to someone under 18.

WELFARE AND INSTITUTIONS CODE

871.5. Bringing drugs, weapons or tear gas into juvie.

1001.5. Bringing into or having within juvie any drugs, booze, guns, weapons, explosives or tear gas.

8100. (a) Being admitted to an impatient treatment facility for a mental disorder and being declared a danger to self or others by a doctor.
(b) Telling a licensed psychotherapist that they intend to commit physical violence against another.

8101. Providing a firearm to someone defined in 8100 or 8103.

8103. Anyone adjudicated by a court of any state to be a danger to others due mental illness or adjudicated to be a sex offender.