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Astig Boy
07-03-2006, 8:19 PM
Well, I havent built it yet, still have one stripped down lower. But here is my plan. I want to build a varmint or sniper style AR. 24" free floating barrel with A2 butt stock. Now, I want to have it with the grip and with a detachable mag. I know I know, not legal right...but heres the catch. I will disable the gas system. There was a AR15 upper receiver made by a Arizona company that had a operating handle built into the left side of the upper. With the gas system disabled, this would make the rifle a "bolt action" style rifle and no longer a "self loading" rifle..which would than exclude the rifle from any type of legal scrutiny. After each shot, the operating handle would be pulled back with the left hand to extract the spent case and load the next round. I like this upper better, being a operating handle is better than pulling back the charge handle into your face. To me this set up should be 100% legal. I have read all the laws and rules pertaining to off-list lowers, but im sure you all know that it can be very confusing. I just need a second opinion and/or everyone elses thoughts on this to be absolutely sure it is ok. Any feedback good or bad is appreciated. TIA :)

elsolo
07-03-2006, 8:25 PM
Push the two pins, separate the upper from the lower and what do you have?
A lower receiver that is in violation of SB-23.

This is in the same boat as .22 AR's, how to make the lower permanately married to the upper? Would replacing the front pivot pin with a loctited nut and bolt be sufficient? I don't know.

Astig Boy
07-03-2006, 8:27 PM
Ok I see. I guess it wouldnt work than. :( Or do I have a chance if I manage to fix the receiver to the upper with some screws and such.

CaptMike
07-03-2006, 8:27 PM
It sounds good to me, but the only concern I would have is that the lower would be configured with pistol grip and open mag well, which would permit a fully operational upper to be placed in place of the single shot upper within 5 seconds. I think this might stradle a grey area if you also owned an upper with an operational gas system plus if you remove the barreled upper and only leave the lower with the open well you have an AW. I have read the sections on constructive possesion but I would stay away from it. just my thoughts. good luck on you build, however you choose to do it.

Stay Safe

Mike

blacklisted
07-03-2006, 8:33 PM
I personally think it would be legal, but to be safe I would have the lower engraved with "Single shot" or something. It's a grey area unfortunately, and I wouldn't risk it. Similarly, if I was going with a detachable mag + pistol grip on a rimfire upper, I would have that engraved with "rimfire".

adamsreeftank
07-03-2006, 11:33 PM
Maybe you could replace the front take-down pin with a nut and bolt and tack weld the end of the nut to the bolt. That way it would be "permanent", but you could grind the weld off and take off the bolt if you wanted to. There wouldn't be any actual change to the receivers.

I don't know if this would be legal. It's one of those gray areas that the Harrot decision was trying to get the DOJ to clarify.

I saw in a magazine that some company is trying to sell a "bolt action" AR in CA. You might want to find them and ask if the DOJ has approved their rifle to get some input.

Also, if there is no gas system, you don't need the buffer or spring. Maybe that would help as an argument that the lower was not able to function as a semi-automatic.

bwiese
07-04-2006, 11:19 AM
Don't.

Go gripless with either an SRB bracket or an "oar" stock or MonsterMan grip, or go with a fixed mag.

You don't want an open magwell + pistol grip to exist on its own (i.e., rifle broken down). That's the (legal) problem with an AR action in CA, because the action type is separate from the lower. And you should only do gripped 22LR conversions if the lower is factory marked as a 22LR.

Astig Boy
07-04-2006, 1:29 PM
Yah I am rethinking this whole set up, and im leaning more to not doing it at all. :( Oh well, it was a thought...I guess ill have to put the whole AR15 project on hold again and see what pops up in the future. Thanks for the informative input fellas, very much appreciated.

bwiese
07-04-2006, 2:26 PM
Yah I am rethinking this whole set up, and im leaning more to not doing it at all. :( Oh well, it was a thought...I guess ill have to put the whole AR15 project on hold again and see what pops up in the future. Thanks for the informative input fellas, very much appreciated.

Don't put it off.

A benchrest/varmint rifle would work well with a 'tumor grip' like MonsterMan', or the 'boat oar' stock that is not a thumbhole stock. In either case this rifle cannot be legally considered to have a pistol grip, so if the upper has no flash hider or other evil features, a detachable mag can be used.

fun2none
07-04-2006, 3:53 PM
Yah I am rethinking this whole set up, and im leaning more to not doing it at all. :( Oh well, it was a thought...I guess ill have to put the whole AR15 project on hold again and see what pops up in the future. Thanks for the informative input fellas, very much appreciated.

Astig,

It is possible to build a pistol gripped, manually operated (bolt action) rifle that uses a standard AR upper. The objective is to a use a lower that has substantially different component interfaces to not allow semi-auto parts, yet be compatible with the standard (gas-blocked-off) upper. Here's how you could do it.

1) Build an 80% lower (I know it's a taboo subject) but do NOT finish the buffer hole in the lower. Bore and thread it on part way through, not all the way. You want to attach a standard buffer tube to the lower in order to mount the butt stock and maintain a barrier to inhibit the cycling of a semi-auto bolt carrier.

2) Take a standard bolt carrier and chop it just behind the firing pin; essentially reducing its length. This allows it to be manually cycled in the blocked buffer tube lower.

3) Make a plug for the gas block and pin it like a standard gas tube. This will block the gas port.

Using this combination block lower, chopped bolt carrier, and plugged gas block, you have effectively created a manually operated rifle that does NOT have the capability for semi-auto operation, which differentiates from a standard OLL lower.

I am positive that any of the members who have built an 80% lower into a legal semi-auto rifle can build make one of these. Since it is designed for manual operation from it's inception, it should not be in a legal grey area.

(Note regarding step 1: it might be easier to machine the buffer tube hole using a smaller diameter than standard and fabricate a custom buffer tube with a closed end. The result is the same in that this prevents the use of a standard semi-auto bolt carrier.)

megavolt121
07-04-2006, 4:48 PM
What if you took a normal pistol grip and just sawed off the bottom of it so it was flush w/ the trigger guard? This would essentially be a very cheap SRB right?

Astig Boy
07-04-2006, 10:18 PM
Astig,

It is possible to build a pistol gripped, manually operated (bolt action) rifle that uses a standard AR upper. The objective is to a use a lower that has substantially different component interfaces to not allow semi-auto parts, yet be compatible with the standard (gas-blocked-off) upper. Here's how you could do it.

1) Build an 80% lower (I know it's a taboo subject) but do NOT finish the buffer hole in the lower. Bore and thread it on part way through, not all the way. You want to attach a standard buffer tube to the lower in order to mount the butt stock and maintain a barrier to inhibit the cycling of a semi-auto bolt carrier.

2) Take a standard bolt carrier and chop it just behind the firing pin; essentially reducing its length. This allows it to be manually cycled in the blocked buffer tube lower.

3) Make a plug for the gas block and pin it like a standard gas tube. This will block the gas port.

Using this combination block lower, chopped bolt carrier, and plugged gas block, you have effectively created a manually operated rifle that does NOT have the capability for semi-auto operation, which differentiates from a standard OLL lower.

I am positive that any of the members who have built an 80% lower into a legal semi-auto rifle can build make one of these. Since it is designed for manual operation from it's inception, it should not be in a legal grey area.

(Note regarding step 1: it might be easier to machine the buffer tube hole using a smaller diameter than standard and fabricate a custom buffer tube with a closed end. The result is the same in that this prevents the use of a standard semi-auto bolt carrier.)

I like the sound of that. :) These grey areas suck, and I really dont want to be in that area, its either one or the other...and I for sure want to be on the legal side. Those are great points. Thanks for that input.

What if I do get a different lower with custom engraving, maybe saying "single shot only", or something along those lines. argh, this is giving me a headache now...

fun2none
07-05-2006, 12:05 AM
Engraving your custom made lower as a "slide action" would be more fitting. If you are really concerned, then take it to the next step by altering the fire control group (trigger/sear & hammer) to only accept customized parts.

There should be no grey area if the lower has a blind buffer tube hole or a hole with a smaller diameter than the standard dimension. That receiver will either work as single shot break open rifle if used with a standard bolt carrier or function as a slide operated rifle if the chopped bolt carrier is installed.

Keep in mind that you should not install a gas piston operated upper on this modified receiver, as it might work in semi auto mode; unless you have modified to fire control group to ONLY work the modified bolt carrier.

grammaton76
07-05-2006, 2:18 PM
Interesting thought. What about taking a standard receiver and covering some of the buffer threads with silver solder? Wouldn't that achieve the same thing as the not-threaded 80% receiver route?

fun2none
07-05-2006, 6:07 PM
Interesting thought. What about taking a standard receiver and covering some of the buffer threads with silver solder? Wouldn't that achieve the same thing as the not-threaded 80% receiver route?

The objective is to permanently seal off the buffer tube to prevent the installation, or use, of a standard semi-auto bolt carrier. If a solid buffer tube (closed end) could be soldered to a standard lower receiver, you have a single shot manually cycled firearm -- provided you do NOT attach it to a gas piston upper.

grammaton76
07-05-2006, 6:10 PM
The objective is to permanently seal off the buffer tube to prevent the installation, or use, of a standard semi-auto bolt carrier. If a solid buffer tube (closed end) could be soldered to a standard lower receiver, you have a single shot manually cycled firearm -- provided you do NOT attach it to a gas piston upper.

If your buffer tube is solid, then how would you manually cycle it? I thought the goal was to change the offset a little so that it wouldn't cycle correctly. It sounds like what you're going for here, is a single shot where you have to pop the rear pin, lift it up, and THEN pull the bolt carrier assembly back.

JPglee1
07-05-2006, 6:13 PM
If your buffer tube is solid, then how would you manually cycle it? I thought the goal was to change the offset a little so that it wouldn't cycle correctly. It sounds like what you're going for here, is a single shot where you have to pop the rear pin, lift it up, and THEN pull the bolt carrier assembly back.

No dude, re-read what he said... chop the bolt carrier off shorter since you wouldn't need a spring in there...shorter carrier gives you room for the stroke of the bolt.

I think it would be cool to do it with a return spring so you could shoot it like a straight pull bolt action.

Do it PAR style and make a sliding handguard with a piston attached to it to pull the bolt carrier front and back... like a shotty :)


JP

grammaton76
07-05-2006, 6:19 PM
No dude, re-read what he said... chop the bolt carrier off shorter since you wouldn't need a spring in there...shorter carrier gives you room for the stroke of the bolt.

I think it would be cool to do it with a return spring so you could shoot it like a straight pull bolt action.

Do it PAR style and make a sliding handguard with a piston attached to it to pull the bolt carrier front and back... like a shotty :)

Aha. You know, shortly before the whole OLL thing started, I was reading about some actual bona-fide pump action AR's which folks were using in Europe. I was kinda bummed that I'd never been able to find one. I think it was called the panther pump-action system (although I don't know if it was related to DPMS). Info on it was always really sketchy.

It'd be kind of amusing to set up a gadget that takes the place of the gas tube on an AR and have a left-side charging handle - watch folks try and decide whether it's an AR derivative or some mutant H&K.

USMC_2651_E5
07-05-2006, 7:14 PM
Aha. You know, shortly before the whole OLL thing started, I was reading about some actual bona-fide pump action AR's which folks were using in Europe. I was kinda bummed that I'd never been able to find one. I think it was called the panther pump-action system (although I don't know if it was related to DPMS). Info on it was always really sketchy.

It'd be kind of amusing to set up a gadget that takes the place of the gas tube on an AR and have a left-side charging handle - watch folks try and decide whether it's an AR derivative or some mutant H&K.

Try this: DPMS Pump (http://www.dpmsinc.com/10Expand.asp?ProductCode=RFA2-PU)

JPglee1
07-05-2006, 7:20 PM
http://www.dpmsinc.com/Products/RFA2-PUP.jpg


Aww, beat me to it ;)


Heh, with that thing I think I'd have to run a lightning link and make it a "slam fire pump action"

Remember, in a pump that would be 100% legal to make it slam fire (NOT using a LL tho, that would still be an illegal conversion device, I was JOKING)

The '97 Winnie shotguns have no disconnector so you can slam fire them, it would be cool to do the same w/a pump rifle just for SNG (shiz n giggles)



JP