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tankerman
07-02-2006, 4:47 AM
Sporterizing or otherwise reconfiguring MILSURP C&R's. Some people hate it others love it, I'd like to hear some opinions on the subject. I've seen very nice tastefully done rifles, and other that were just turned to garbage. Does the issue have to do with: Military gun collectors on one side and hunters and wanna be home gunsmiths(myself included)on the other. I keep some in original condition others I have reworked, man does that seem to upset some people. Why?
When I came to Calguns a few months back it seems like the C&R forum was used much more. Now everything seems to be more and more and more OLL stuff. It gets boring. Old guns are much more interesting to me. Although I did find this place because I was looking for a place to ask an OLL question. Lowers now collecting dust, unbuilt, I'm back to my old guns and modern sporting rifles. It was like a quick visit to the whorehouse, now I feel dirty.

The Soup Nazi
07-02-2006, 5:49 AM
That depends. Almost anything from WW2 and such have in my opinion too much collectors opinion to "put a scope on mah rahffle". The exception to this is usually the Mosin Nagant since there were so many made, no one is going to cry about running out of those anytime soon. But to me, anything that can't come into this country is now off limits, or things with real monetary value. So you can play around with a Yugoslavian SKS, those things asren't going to stop coming in, but don't you dare refinish that Chinese or Russian SKS, and if theres a ban on importing Yugos, then they're off limits.

I guess I'm anal about it, my friend asked me about buying a Springfield from CMP and converting it to a sniper rifle and asked me how I could do it and I told him that it'd probably involve drilling which I would NOT condone. I mean, if you want your own semi auotmatic rifle in 30.06, just buy a receiver from CMP and build your own rifle, I'm pretty sure it isn't going to reunite with its original parts.

NeoWeird
07-02-2006, 8:36 AM
In my opinion, it all depends on condition.

I personally would NEVER touch a C&R to bubba it. It's just not in my nature. I like things original, I like the historical/collector value it has to ME (I actually got a C&R with the intent of collection, not just buying rifles and dealer discounts), and I like to have something as strong and rugged as it was 60 years ago.

So if you had a Mosin Nagant, Mauser, Garand, 1903, K-31, etc that was in functioning condition, I would not touch it in anyway. If it takes work to alter a functioning part of the rifle, than I would not do it. That is the point where you have a restoration project, not a sporterizing project. If the rifle is in such poor shape that the cost to restore it would be more than the value of the restored rifle, then you can go and sporterize it. For each weapon it's different, for example a Springfield M1 Garand maybe by at one point, but a Winchester Win-13 Garand is a completely different one. Likewise Mosin-Nagant 91/30 Snipers can be had for the $350-500 range, with good condition 91/30's at less than $100. With new stocks at the prices they are, if your stock needed repair on a 91/30; most people wouldn't care if you bubbaized it some.

Think of it like cars. If you had a 1927 Model T in pristine condition with factory paint and motor, would you turn it into a hot rod? HELL NO. Now if you found a slightly rusted 27 Model T with no motor or tranny would you hot rod it? Most people probably would.

Also, if you want to bubba something, call some of the distributers. I know for a fact AIM has some, some does SOG and probably Century; but retailers and wholesalers will have rifles that they will call things like "Gunsmith specials" where for really cheap (like $40-50 K-31s) you get a rifle that needs some ammount of work to get it to fully functional. I have heard some are as easy as a broken/bent firing pin or rotted wood, where as some are missing a bolt, or a broken trigger, or maybe it's just a barreled action with stock. Call around for something like that; no one will care as much if you bubba one of those, they are cheaper and will make the project more enjoyable, and you can also tack pride in reviving a lost rifle instead of altering an existing one.

Just my thoughts/opinions on it.

chickenfried
07-02-2006, 8:44 AM
Personally I only alter c&r's in a non-permanent manner i.e. no drill scope mounts, replacing stock/storing the old one, etc. But it irks me when people get worked up about what some people choose to do with their firearm. For me guns are all about fun. If part of that fun for someone is bubba'ing a c&r, hey whatever floats your boat.

glen avon
07-02-2006, 12:00 PM
you are going straight to hell.

VeryCoolCat
07-02-2006, 4:41 PM
you spelt BASTARDIZING wrong.

tankerman
07-02-2006, 6:08 PM
So far I guess from the responses I should probably refrain from posting pics of what I have done to some of mine. Although the sporterized K31 does look nice. Making a scout scope mount is easy and much less expensive, but you have to be willing to alter it past the point of no return. By the way MRex21, I do like the KRAG sporter you have for sale.
Some just call to me to be messed with, besides There just seems to be something inherently cool about shooting a hog, deer or Elk with a gun and a round most people haven't heard of,in many cases an unscoped rifle just isn't sufficient to insure a clean kill. Some do have top notch sites, not many. I love my Winchester m70 but usually bring it or some other standard as a back-up. Probably the nicest MILSURP sporter I have is an 1893 Mannlicher (Romanian). Sweet as they come, must have been altered at least 50+ years ago. Changes include engraved receiver, sporter stock,shnabel foregrip with the nicest finest checkering I have seen, full rib express sights, stippling on bolt handle, monagrammed plate on underside of stock.

kenc9
07-02-2006, 6:17 PM
I don't Bubba any C&R, I'll replace stocks that can be changed back to original and such.

One thing I have noticed that when guys get into collecting is that the longer you collect the less you want to alter anything.

-ken

chickenfried
07-02-2006, 6:49 PM
Why not post some pics? Here's a project I'm working on. Want a woods rifle. So I'm refinishing my garand stock with a modern waterproof finish.

Before:
http://static.flickr.com/45/180327264_ff586cbdfa_o.jpg

After Sanding:
http://static.flickr.com/73/180250367_0878ac9a55.jpg

So far I guess from the responses I should probably refrain from posting pics of what I have done to some of mine.

Mssr. Elegantť
07-02-2006, 7:00 PM
Before:
http://static.flickr.com/45/180327264_ff586cbdfa_o.jpg

I have a Garand stock that somebody carved their intitials into, it looks like WRA+GHD. I figure WRA was some soldier and GHD was his girlfriend back home. It's a shame because otherwise it's a really nice looking stock.

Do you think you could help me refinish it Chickenfried?

http://www.trfindley.com/flmystmps/wraghdaf.jpg

glen avon
07-02-2006, 8:15 PM
I just pee'd myself, thanks alot AMII.

slowjonn
07-02-2006, 8:47 PM
You guys crack me up! WRA was the girlfriend back home, GHD was the soldier. Duh!

For the most part, I don't alter anything permanently. I have a M1 carbine that I put an Ultimak hand guard on and I camo painted a stock for it (the stock was not a GI stock). Added a red dot to it and a tactical sling. That is about as far as I am willing to go on these history pieces. BTW, this particular carbine is a rockola that was so far beyond even a mix-master, that I didn't feel bad doing the mods.

I just really hate the guys that take say a 1898 Krag Carbine and bubba it to go hunting with. That seems to have happened a lot back in the days when they were giving them away. But sheesh, I would gladly give you my nearly new Browning BAR safari with a Leo 3x9 scope for any original Krag carbines you have.

Guns are meant to be fun but messin with history is gonna see you in the hot end of the pool when your maker calls. :cool:

five.five-six
07-02-2006, 9:03 PM
this thread comes to mind kitten (http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=36174&highlight=kitten) however there are a zillion of those $100-200 mausers

elsolo
07-02-2006, 11:00 PM
It's your rifle, you can do just about anything you want to it.
It may cause the rifle to lose value in the long run, if so then don't complain about your mistake.
Most milsurps are sporterized because they are cheap and available. What do those two qualities tell you about them? They aren't exactly rare for the most part, and their value might not appreciate all that much during your lifetime. If you are convinced that "milsurp rifle ____" is going to be worth so much more than you paid for it if you keep it all original, why not buy as many as possible so you can get rich off your fine financial speculation on historical military artifacts?

ivanimal
07-03-2006, 1:08 AM
I have bought a K98 to make into a 8MM-06, I also own an 03 A3 in 35 Whelen IMP and 30-06 that have both been sporterized. I have a MAS Carbine that has been made into a hunting rifle but has the original stock. I will probably make one more 8MM-06 before I am done. I do have about 20 other milsurps in their original condition and will never alter them.

fal_762x51
07-03-2006, 1:05 PM
That's about enough of that.
Keep things civil and polite or we'll have to give you a 'time out', you'll have to sit in the corner with no FAL's and only a FAB10...

JPglee1
07-03-2006, 1:09 PM
Anyone that sporters a C&R is a moron that deserves to be beaten with a garden hose. Either this is a troll/joke thread or you idiots are plain dumb. Want a tactical mall ninja, all weather, fiber glass, ported rifle; buy a Remington or something and leave these rifles alone. This goes to show why the California governement doesn't what people to own firearms, because they do stupid stuff like this.


I are a moron... please flog me appropriately.

If someone owns something and wants to hack it up, that's their right :)

J

ivanimal
07-04-2006, 12:53 AM
Anyone that sporters a C&R is a moron that deserves to be beaten with a garden hose. Either this is a troll/joke thread or you idiots are plain dumb. Want a tactical mall ninja, all weather, fiber glass, ported rifle; buy a Remington or something and leave these rifles alone. This goes to show why the California governement doesn't what people to own firearms, because they do stupid stuff like this.

OK so I build a sporting rifle powerful enough to take down a moose for 250 bucks and I am a moron? There is an art to taking a great Mauser action and turning it into a useful functional tool for hunting. There is a place for value of relics, and sporterizing common milsurps. You tell me that just because I donít think small like you I am an idiot, just look to your mirror and see the myopic, egotistical existence that really keeps firearms away from the general populous.

glen avon
07-04-2006, 9:09 AM
Everyone drives a different car.

that's true, and a nice common ground where we can all agree.

for instance, I have an old camaro I want to fix up. it is butt-ugly with a big SYC on the hood and some stupid motor that idles like crap and gets terrible mileage and a stupid stick shift tranny that whines too much. I'm going to slam it on 22s and put in a 305 TBI I have been saving from an 82 vette with a 700R4. class, style AND economy.

I also have a supposably "all original" cobra that some idiot put a 289 in. original my butt. I have a line on a 460 that is a lot closer to the 429 or 427s whatever they originally came with. we blew up the 289 with a brick on the gas pedal and a 12-pack of beer IT WAS GREAT. then I am going to slam it too, put in some air conditioning, and put xenon HID lights on it and some serious sound.

fal_762x51
07-04-2006, 11:22 AM
First off let me apologize for me venting toward anyone here. The car didn't pass smog on the 3rd, then I got sideswiped driving back from the test only station. For pictures of the car, look on the open discussion board under "one bad day." I shouldn't have said and I did not mean to be a douche bag (I think I was in another thread too that day). I would prefer if a C&R wasn't sported, but itís your rig. Sorry and I still love you guys. :(

Kestryll
07-04-2006, 11:25 AM
First off let me apologize for me venting toward anyone here. The car didn't pass smog on the 3rd, then I got sideswiped driving back from the test only station. For pictures of the car, look on the open discussion board under "one bad day." I shouldn't have said and I did not mean to be a douche bag (I think I was in another thread too that day). I would prefer if a C&R wasn't sported, but itís your rig. Sorry and I still love you guys. :(


Sorry to hear about your car, that sucks!
Did the other person have insurance? Nail their backside to a wall.

No prob, everyone has bad days, it's cool.

kenc9
07-04-2006, 11:38 AM
My neighbor had this K98 Mauser he got from his Dad as a kid. At the time it was just a Vet bring back and an old rifle...He sanded the stock and refinished it but didn't like the looks so he through it away and bought a really good one. He had the barrel shortened, drilled it for a scope and some other custom stuff.

Fast forward from 1966 to 2006.

He pulled it out to show me his rifle from when he was a kid. He told me his Dad brought this back from the war. I looked it over and it was only an all matching, low production year and make. He now knows what a dumb thing he had done.
You rarely can even get your money back from what it cost to make the changes.
You are far better off selling the orginal rifle and buy an action, have it barreled, scoped, and stock it.

Can you even imagine taking an all original Cobra and customizing it? Get the 429 back in it:D

-ken

tankerman
07-04-2006, 2:52 PM
I've got at friend that has a similar mindset as that guy that blew out a few arteries this morning, thinks that he knows what guns every person should shoot, and that everything else is garbage, and if you don't take his advice you're a moron. I think i'll go get my hacksaw,files, bench grinder,and wielder out. Heres the plan; bend bolt on straight pull, add trigger safety. grind off sights. drill and tap for some cheap tro-glo something or another, hog the chamber out with a drill bit, make a thumb whole stock with my hole saw, dura coat camo, wait I forgot to shorten the barrel to the legal min. Open up bolt face with dremel. Mount Tasco on see-thru rings And got get some who knows were they came from half empty box gun-show reloads. Right on hunt'n season here I come.
The only guns I have ever "BUBBA'd" were guns that were not in their original configuration. The only exception was one of my K31's that I decided to make a little more hunter friendly.
So much of that stuff that was still around after WWI was rebarreled/chambered all kinds of changes done to them, making many of them crap.

NeoWeird
07-04-2006, 6:37 PM
My neighbor had this K98 Mauser he got from his Dad as a kid. At the time it was just a Vet bring back and an old rifle...He sanded the stock and refinished it but didn't like the looks so he through it away and bought a really good one. He had the barrel shortened, drilled it for a scope and some other custom stuff.

Fast forward from 1966 to 2006.

He pulled it out to show me his rifle from when he was a kid. He told me his Dad brought this back from the war. I looked it over and it was only an all matching, low production year and make. He now knows what a dumb thing he had done.
You rarely can even get your money back from what it cost to make the changes.
You are far better off selling the orginal rifle and buy an action, have it barreled, scoped, and stock it.

Can you even imagine taking an all original Cobra and customizing it? Get the 429 back in it:D

-ken

I'm right on the same page as you.

And I'm sorry, but arguing that taking a "great mauser action" and turning it into a useful tool is dumb in two ways. That's like saying "I had a TV that I didn't quite like, so I repainted the outside and slapped some stickers on it, put a VCR and antenea on top and now it is useful." You didn't some how make it better, you just altered the way it looks and the way you aim it; at BEST you gave it a trigger job. In actuallity you're really saying "I had a Picaso but it just sat on the wall doing nothing, so I cut into lengths and used it for tolietpaper; now it had a useful purpose." Yeah, that may be true to an extent, but you missed a HUGE part of it.

And just so you guys know, most C&Rs could handle their own on their own for several years in mud, rain, snow, rivers, sand, humindity, dirt, sand, etc and still came out shooting in the end; I think they can handle a little moisture as you walk one afternoon hunting deer, and I am sure the deer won't be suprised to see wood in the forest.

Go ahead and flame me a new one, but I thought the board as a whole was in a general agreement about where sporterizing really becomes damaging until I I saw the sanded down Garand and I realized we (the entire topic at hand) were on two totally different levels of agreement. Yes, it's your right to do whatever you want with what is yours, I just hope one day you realize what you do.

And I thought that last post was serious until I got to the chamber reaming with a drill bit and I knew no one could be that idiotic. I near peed in my pants reading that one.

chickenfried
07-04-2006, 7:22 PM
I for one did not think this board reached any concensus. The debate on whether mall ninjas or c&r "do not alter" zealots are the silliest members of the gun community, is nowhere near settled.

NeoWeird
07-04-2006, 8:07 PM
I for one did not think this board reached any concensus. The debate on whether mall ninjas or c&r "do not alter" zealots are the silliest members of the gun community, is nowhere near settled.

ok, let me rephrase. It SEEMED as if we were at least drawing towards a mutual conclusion as most people were either elaborating on, or expanding on what other people had said. Of course I was gone for like 3 days so maybe I just came back in the wrong place at the wrong time and got derailed.

elsolo
07-04-2006, 11:01 PM
that's true, and a nice common ground where we can all agree.

for instance, I have an old camaro I want to fix up. it is butt-ugly with a big SYC on the hood and some stupid motor that idles like crap and gets terrible mileage and a stupid stick shift tranny that whines too much. I'm going to slam it on 22s and put in a 305 TBI I have been saving from an 82 vette with a 700R4. class, style AND economy.

I also have a supposably "all original" cobra that some idiot put a 289 in. original my butt. I have a line on a 460 that is a lot closer to the 429 or 427s whatever they originally came with. we blew up the 289 with a brick on the gas pedal and a 12-pack of beer IT WAS GREAT. then I am going to slam it too, put in some air conditioning, and put xenon HID lights on it and some serious sound.

Because ALL misurps are collectable on the magnatude of a Yenko Camaro or a Shelby Cobra, give me a break. Many milsurp rifles will never have as much collector value as they have intrinsic value as a well built rifle action suitable for turning into a sporting rifle of whatever chambering you desire.

I bet that baseball card you stuck in the spokes of your bicycle as a kid was a Mickey Mantle rookie card too?

There are collectable guns that have been bubba'd up, that's part of the reason why the remainder are worth so much. Keep your's nice and reap the benefits.

ivanimal
07-04-2006, 11:20 PM
The 2 03 A3's and the MAS that I own were sporterized by other before me, I love milsurps but have drawn the line at owning one original from each country in each war. I will continue to rescue awesome sporterized milsurps and add them to the list of rifles I own and love. I happen to think that a gun used for the task of hunting is far better than one riding a piece of velvet in my safe. I probably have, as many hunting rifles as I do milsurps, the one I use the most and have an affinity for are the ones I helped design or put together. I have a Carl Gustov 6.5X55 that someone put a peep sight on. I have been looking for 3 years to find an original sight and repair it into its once precious glory. That gun is rare and should never have been altered. If I but a K-98 for a few bucks with the intentions of making a different gun out of it that is my business. These are a dime a dozen. I also own a Mitchellís Mauser and a Turkish Mauser in 8MM. I will die with these guns unaltered in my possession. The value of a gun lies within its owner. Please donít ridicule people for doing what they believe is right. It makes us all look like a bunch of premadonna's.

P.S. one of the 03-A3ís in my possession was sporterized by my father a veteran of the Korean War, recipient of a Purple Heart, and father of six. It seems he could not afford to buy a proper hunting rifle so he made one. It is my prized possession. He is no longer with us but I still take him hunting once in a while.

lpspinner
07-04-2006, 11:35 PM
Then how do you feel about u-fix-em's? I have plenty of nice Turks, but a $25.00 special?

http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c277/lpspinner/MyMauseropt.jpg

tankerman
07-05-2006, 7:15 AM
It seems that the difference in opinion may have something do with an individuals relationship to their firearms, i.e. military history buff/collector, hunter/shooters, and last the all around gun nut, likely a combination of the two. I call it a relationship, I am pretty sure that many around here spend more time with their guns than with people. That is the only way to explain the defensive and argumentative nature of many of these discussions. The choice of the words "gun porn" speaks to the creepiness of it all. Bestiality. necrophilia, gun sex? I don't know if there is a scientific word for it yet.;)

ivanimal
07-08-2006, 1:23 PM
I got the Whelen I was waiting for today, I must say the guy that did the sporterizing did an incredible job. It has an RCBS 35 Whelen Improved barrel and a custom muzzle brake. The wood is first rate and the action and trigger have been lapped and tuned. This was all done on a 03A3 action. I am just giddy.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v631/ivanimal/myrifles034.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v631/ivanimal/myrifles033.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v631/ivanimal/myrifles032.jpg

The magazine cut off is great for road hunting because you can keep one in the chamber on safe on backroads and just remove the chambered round if needed, this helps to keep spire points from deforming due to removal and reloading.

It also came with 120 rounds of custom ammo and reloading dies. I could not have done as good a job for 1000 bucks. I did not pay 1/2 of that including DROS.

There are some incredible deals to be had in sporterized milsurps if you look hard enough. I know some people feel this is "Taboo" I respect that, that just makes these easier for me to aquire.

tankerman
07-08-2006, 4:44 PM
Sweet gun
Thank god so many people are bias against MILSURP sporters helps keep the price down....Nice buy, I'm jealous.

glen avon
07-08-2006, 5:45 PM
Because ALL misurps are collectable on the magnatude of a Yenko Camaro or a Shelby Cobra, give me a break.

settle down francis, I was being silly, not sarcastic. ;)

-hanko
07-09-2006, 3:38 PM
I won't sporterize any military C&R, but buying one already done (especially 20-30 year old) doesn't bother me. It might be just a matter of timing, 30 years ago springfields were as plentiful as Moisin's are now, so no big deal to get a beater & chop the barrel & restock. Times obviously are different now.

Ugly guns are just fine if you don't let anyone know you have one:D They do go bang every time and shoot big bullets.

-hanko

-hanko
07-09-2006, 3:41 PM
I got the Whelen I was waiting for today, I must say the guy that did the sporterizing did an incredible job. It has an RCBS 35 Whelen Improved barrel and a custom muzzle brake. The wood is first rate and the action and trigger have been lapped and tuned. This was all done on a 03A3 action. I am just giddy.

There are some incredible deals to be had in sporterized milsurps if you look hard enough. I know some people feel this is "Taboo" I respect that, that just makes these easier for me to aquire.
Get thee to Idaho & go back with an elk (or anything else);)

+1 on the great deals with just a little or a lot of looking.

-hanko

ivanimal
07-09-2006, 7:59 PM
Get thee to Idaho & go back with an elk (or anything else);)

+1 on the great deals with just a little or a lot of looking.

-hanko

Thus the real reason for buying the whelen! I was thinking Montana though.;)

M. Sage
07-09-2006, 8:15 PM
A topic that strikes a bit close to home...

I tinkered a bit with my 91/30, but like someone pointed out, it's not like they didn't build enough of them (more so in my case, since it's a 1942 Ishevsk). But I kept everything 100% reversible.

The only things I've done to take it away from the condition I got it in were:

Added a Mojo rear sight. Anybody who hasn't seen one, it's kind of neat. You take the tangent rear sight off the rifle (it comes off with a pin, so I can put it back anytime I feel like trying to break my thumbs again) and the Mojo is a diopter-style sight. Very nice, especially since my rifle was shooting about 6" high at 100 yards at the minimum range setting, and the other option was to file a rear sight down (I actually bought a spare rear sight just for this...) or install a taller front sight post (no thanks.)

The new sight picture. Notice how the diopter blends into the globe when they're aligned properly. I love that:

http://x2.putfile.com/6/17123520424.jpg

The other thing I did was since the shellac was falling off the stock at a horrible rate, melting off from heat when I shot it, I stripped the stock and refinished it in Tung oil. I also plan on hunting with the rifle at some point, so I wanted something I could count on staying waterproof. I didn't sweat this one too much, since the stock had been horribly re-shellacked during refurbishment. You could see brush marks in the red coat that was on top. Eww.

Before (the day I brought it home, before the finish started falling off):

http://img49.imageshack.us/img49/8042/mosin8ee.jpg

The finished product:

http://f5.putfile.com/6/17623333755.jpg