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bwiese
06-28-2006, 11:37 AM
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=207766

weird one guys, I decided to get rid of my off list ar lower. I have a friend who owns an LE supply store.

I took it in, He took the lower already built with Bushmaster parts and some other stuff for trade on Sig 226 in 40.

I had called DOJ with the number my friend gave me from my cell. The guy at doj I talked to asked me were I was turning it in. he said it would be fine. then he called back My friend and said, "The lower is contraband." MY Friend had to turn it into the PD. I lost all that money. Plus what he gave me for the trade.

I am pissed. The DOJ guy also said. "Anyone with one of these is in trouble."

Then he said, " If want a M-16 join the reserves." I did not bother to tell him I am retired Army.

Now I am really pissed. This guy was a disrectful fool. Not to mention, he lied and put my friend on the spot. Just FYI, stevo.....


I'm trying to find out more... perhaps there was a mistake in how he figured it was off-list, perhaps he was just bullied by yet another ill-informed DOJ employee

EricCartmanR1
06-28-2006, 11:42 AM
or perhaps this is the gov't and they can do anything and interpret the laws anyway they want. perhaps we are all fools for letting the gov't take away our individual rights. perhaps they will only take more rights away as they seem to be on a roll and don't stop.

gmcem50
06-28-2006, 11:47 AM
or perhaps this is the gov't and they can do anything and interpret the laws anyway they want. perhaps we are all fools for letting the gov't take away our individual rights. perhaps they will only take more rights away as they seem to be on a roll and don't stop.

Or perhaps this is internet lore run amok. I don't know, but my BS meter is starting to move after reading the thread on THR.

bwiese
06-28-2006, 11:49 AM
Or perhaps this is internet lore run amok. I don't know, but my BS meter is starting to move after reading the original post.

I am sure something happened. This guy has posted before, and appears to be a regular guy.

We don't have all the details yet and it could go either way:
- somehow it truly wasn't off-list (Eagle Arms AR10?);
- it was illegally configured;
- the DOJ clerk of the day is just plain wrong

Ryoushi
06-28-2006, 11:54 AM
Bill,

You and I must have been furiously typing at the same time. Good job. My crying BS on that thread was not referring to your post at all as I was unaware you had posted yet.

gose
06-28-2006, 12:09 PM
Ehh, why did he call the DOJ?

bwiese
06-28-2006, 12:14 PM
Ehh, why did he call the DOJ?

I think the FFL did. However I think it's primarily a police supply store (not sure which one) that sells some guns to cops but is not a "gun store" per se. He probably wasn't up on what's legal or not as he's not really in the gun biz big time, didn't know about the OLL biz and just called a generic DOJ number.

GW
06-28-2006, 12:15 PM
Ya know, I'll acknowledge the possibility that there was a configuration/brand issue but I'm really thinking BS here
After all the hoop de la of different laws busts etc you'd think folks would know about putting in specifics
such as The Campbell police confiscated my Stag lower because... But when its "this guy did that" I roll my eyes at yet another vague story.
What lower?
How was it configured?
Which PD was it turned in to?
Who at the DOJ said this?

kantstudien
06-28-2006, 12:54 PM
Probably a miscommunication of some sorts because maybe the dealer said "Bushmaster..." and the phone clerk got a hard-on or something. :rolleyes:

Bottom line, if you do not know what you are getting into legally, stay the F out of the game.

Chaingun
06-28-2006, 12:59 PM
Interesting that they only took the reciever and didn't arrest the person. They know what receivers are banned. Makes it sound like an OLL.

GJJ
06-28-2006, 1:04 PM
It was easy, they just "defined" his lower to be a WMD. They have the power to define things to be anything they want.

I wonder how the founding fathers would "define" infringed? Do you think we are there yet?

bwiese
06-28-2006, 3:34 PM
I PM'd with Sgt Stevo.

The lower is a Lauer LCW15, purchased at a Bay Area FFL that has sold many lowers.

I think he just got idiot of the day on the DOJ phone tree and it got worse.

tenpercentfirearms
06-28-2006, 3:40 PM
I am sorry, but the DOJ would never take any off-list lowers without 100% legal authority. :eek:

Jicko
06-28-2006, 3:52 PM
Originally Posted by Stg Stevo
....
I took it in, He took the lower already built with Bushmaster parts and some other stuff for trade on Sig 226 in 40.

I had called DOJ with the number my friend gave me from my cell. The guy at doj I talked to asked me were I was turning it in. he said it would be fine. then he called back My friend and said, "The lower is contraband." MY Friend had to turn it into the PD. I lost all that money. Plus what he gave me for the trade.

I am pissed. The DOJ guy also said. "Anyone with one of these is in trouble."

Then he said, " If want a M-16 join the reserves." I did not bother to tell him I am retired Army.

Now I am really pissed. This guy was a disrectful fool. Not to mention, he lied and put my friend on the spot. Just FYI, stevo.....


If his FRIEND decided to "turn it into the PD", then that's his FRIEND's CHOICE.... he shouldn't have to loose all the money.... and the trade items....

And the FFL/FRIEND, need to TURN IN is the "lower receiver"(even if it is indeed a listed item....), everything else... the upper etc... all just "NOT" a firearm...

If it is REALLY a "contraband", then they will come and "ARREST" the original owner....

If anyone have any of these wanting to "turn into" someone, I'll take them.... let them just come and ARREST me....

adamsreeftank
06-28-2006, 4:01 PM
I think I know the original poster in this mess, and based on his personality and past military experience, I think we need to consider the possibility that the gun was not configured legally. If that is the case, he might have gotten off easily.

Jicko
06-28-2006, 4:05 PM
I think I know the original poster in this mess, and based on his personality and past military experience, I think we need to consider the possibility that the gun was not configured legally. If that is the case, he might have gotten off easily.

I thought about it a little more.... maybe he didn't "fix the magazine so that it is not detachable without the use of a tool", and just having it as an "open mag" AR... with pistol grip...and all the goodies

then....

I guess, he *deserved* to loose all his money....

I think biwese can give us some update and shed some light as to what actually happened....

Stanze
06-28-2006, 4:12 PM
This one's for the DOJ duped OLL owner.:D
http://img282.imageshack.us/img282/6460/cavemen28la.jpg

(I just made that in MS Paint, so if you see it anywhere else you know where it came from!;) )

6172crew
06-28-2006, 5:59 PM
I guess, he *deserved* to loose all his money....

...

He didnt deserve anything like that, this is just the DOJ and the lack of leadership and they havent given any guidance and that is how these things happen.

We have been told that we can build them without breaking and laws and we have been told that they dont know what the other DAs would say, then we have been told that the lowers are going to be a different type of AW CAT4 I think they called it, then they took some lowers that were legal because a safe was to small tthen they told them they couldnt have them back, then they went around to guns shows saying the lowers were "contraband" then they said we will need to make sure tp permantly fix the magazines and all the while this guy deserves his property taken from him?

I say we buy him a new lower and send the receipt to the clowns in Sac.

sac7000
06-28-2006, 6:36 PM
This one's for the DOJ duped OLL owner.:D
http://img282.imageshack.us/img282/6460/cavemen28la.jpg



LOL! funny! :)

Charliegone
06-28-2006, 7:05 PM
LOL! funny! :)

Yeah, I'll have the roasted duck with the mango salsa.:D

On a side note...if we have anyone to blame it should be the top heads for not informing (or misinforming) their DOJ agents on the situation. They should just cool it, unless they want a legal battle to begin...

xenophobe
06-28-2006, 7:05 PM
SJPD won't arrest someone for turning in a contraband AW. The ATF will not arrest someone for turning in contraband NFA items. If they're contraband, turning them in is the correct thing to do.

The only police supply store that also sells firearms in SJ is LC Action & Supply.

hoffmang
06-28-2006, 10:38 PM
I hope someone has advised him to submit a LEGR on his legal rifle.

tpliquid1
06-28-2006, 11:30 PM
i been to LC action. quite high in prices

Jicko
06-29-2006, 12:55 AM
You guys are just assuming that he has his Lauer LCW15 *WITH* a "fixed magazine that cannot be detached without the use of a tool" OR a no evil features gripless CA-AR..... what if he actually configured that as a full open mag OR gripless-yet-evil CAT3 AW!? I had personally seen quite a number of OLLs configured that way.... *sigh*....sad but it does happen.... there are just more myths than facts in this particular case... and I guess... we should just leave the discussion as it is unless we got more *facts*....

6172crew
06-29-2006, 7:32 AM
You guys are just assuming that he has his Lauer LCW15 *WITH* a "fixed magazine that cannot be detached without the use of a tool" OR a no evil features gripless CA-AR..... what if he actually configured that as a full open mag OR gripless-yet-evil CAT3 AW!? I had personally seen quite a number of OLLs configured that way.... *sigh*....sad but it does happen.... there are just more myths than facts in this particular case... and I guess... we should just leave the discussion as it is unless we got more *facts*....

Im not assuming anything, I think if he did have a AW it was because its not clear whats legal and what isnt legal in this state. The AG has done a very poor job passing the buck and not listing which would have prevented this whole mess.:cool:

bwiese
06-29-2006, 12:23 PM
It appears that Sgt Stevo's lower in question was, um, "not a bare lower" and that he perhaps got overenthusiastic when attaching parts.

Sgt. Stevo is a very lucky man.

6172crew
06-29-2006, 1:04 PM
It appears that Sgt Stevo's lower in question was, um, "not a bare lower" and that he perhaps got overenthusiastic when attaching parts.

Sgt. Stevo is a very lucky man.

Once again if the AG had been forth coming about what we could or couldnt do with these the SGT wouldnt have had this problem, IMHO.:)

bwiese
06-29-2006, 1:46 PM
Once again if the AG had been forth coming about what we could or couldnt do with these the SGT wouldnt have had this problem, IMHO.:)

No, apparently this was a plain-as-day "read the FAQ" issue that most sane Calguns off-listers understand (i.e., appears to be flagrant in-your-face configuration).

odysseus
06-29-2006, 4:29 PM
Sorry if this sounds silly or redundant.

Let me just plain ask this: OLL with fixed 10 rnd mag and a pistol grip is still not a sb23 violating rifle? Essentially I am reading that the DOJ wants to add provisions to not allow fixing (sportsman?) mags - but that this has been apparently legal to do because of a use of a real tool and it is not easily removed by hand.

The threads here of late have been many and spread out. If I wanted to fix a 10 rnd in a OLL, which fixed methods are people using? My head is spinning...

blkA4alb
06-29-2006, 4:42 PM
Sorry if this sounds silly or redundant.

Let me just plain ask this: OLL with fixed 10 rnd mag and a pistol grip is still not a sb23 violating rifle? Essentially I am reading that the DOJ wants to add provisions to not allow fixing (sportsman?) mags - but that this has been apparently legal to do because of a use of a real tool and it is not easily removed by hand.

The threads here of late have been many and spread out. If I wanted to fix a 10 rnd in a OLL, which fixed methods are people using? My head is spinning...
Nothing has changed legally. If you fix the mag and have evil feature it is just as LEGAL as it was before the recent events. You have two choices, fix the mag and use evil features. Or have NO evil features and use detachable mags and an SRB. I am using a fixed mag and pistol grip and will continue to do so until the LAW changes (at which it will be time to register and drop the mag :D :p .) Those are your two options.

blkA4alb
06-29-2006, 5:03 PM
Actually If you read the necessity section on the intial statement of reason on the DOJ site, their position is that we have "misconstrued the term capacity to accept a detachable magazine" and "the proposed definition will add clarity to the existing statues but will not change or affect their current application and enforcement."
In other words they are saying the fixed mag + evil features is in their opinion illegal and has been since 1/1/2000. It appears that it will not be decided for good until sometime after August 16th.
Edited to not help DOJ.

DRH
06-29-2006, 5:12 PM
Edited to not help DOJ.

It is difficult to not talk among ourselves about this stuff, but I think Bill is right about staying quiet until near the hearing. If you get a good idea or angle PM/email it to one of the better known board members. I just sent Bill a PM, hope it helped.

Clodbuster
06-30-2006, 12:05 PM
Sounds like this is the test case everyone's been wishing for....

Clod

It appears that Sgt Stevo's lower in question was, um, "not a bare lower" and that he perhaps got overenthusiastic when attaching parts.

Sgt. Stevo is a very lucky man.

bwiese
06-30-2006, 12:10 PM
Sounds like this is the test case everyone's been wishing for....

Clod

No it's definitely not. He appears to have been definitely in the wrong.

It wasn't a matter of it being off-list.

Clodbuster
06-30-2006, 12:18 PM
Which proves the point that the law is so confusing, no one understands what is legal or not legal with these lowers, even to an ex-military guy, who should know better than the common citizen.

Clod

No it's definitely not. He appears to have been definitely in the wrong.

It wasn't a matter of it being off-list.

bwiese
06-30-2006, 1:04 PM
Which proves the point that the law is so confusing, no one understands what is legal or not legal with these lowers, even to an ex-military guy, who should know better than the common citizen.


Wrong.

This area is clearly not a confusing part of the law. 12276.1 is easy to understand for folks with even high school reading skills and in situations with plainly apparent features - it's only the edge conditions that get unclear. Ignorance of this basic law is not an excuse.

And there are probably thousands of ex-military guys that have technical firearm convications around the country. Many seem to have a "it can't happen to me" or "they aren't bustin' for that" attitude.

Crazed_SS
06-30-2006, 3:34 PM
Which proves the point that the law is so confusing, no one understands what is legal or not legal with these lowers, even to an ex-military guy, who should know better than the common citizen.

Clod


You cant have a rifle with detachable magazine and pistol grip in CA.

Is it really THAT confusing?

bwiese
06-30-2006, 4:07 PM
You cant have a rifle with detachable magazine and pistol grip in CA.

Is it really THAT confusing?

Hmm, perhaps. If it's not a semiauto or centerfire, you can.

Thus, the pump action AKs.

50 Freak
06-30-2006, 4:34 PM
You cant have a rifle with detachable magazine and pistol grip in CA.

Is it really THAT confusing?

What about registered AW's? Tens of thousands of legal ones here.

Crazed_SS
06-30-2006, 5:59 PM
Hmm, perhaps. If it's not a semiauto or centerfire, you can.
Thus, the pump action AKs.



What about registered AW's? Tens of thousands of legal ones here.


lol.. you guys know what I mean.

Unless it was registered years ago.. a semi-auto, centerfire rifle with a detachable mag and pistol grip is a no-go. Still pretty simple I think. Maybe it's just cause I read the laws though.. :o

onley11
07-01-2006, 9:23 PM
Ok, so the genius decides to run his gun that way, stupid, but I can imagine it. But why the hell would you trade it still feloniously blinged? What is the purpose? How does that make any sense? He didn't gain anything by it...

And retired and still a Sgt? What a @#$%bird! Stupid, glad he didn't go to jail, that's all we need.

Sgt stevo
07-01-2006, 10:55 PM
I am Sgt stevo. The reason all this happened is because I was stupid. I thought that if I did have, own or control an upper. My lower, was legal.

So when I told, it was hinky at best, by a dog client, that is also An le guy. I decided to get rid of it. Still thinking that it was legal. I brought it into a store.

the store owner gave me the number of the DOJ, that he uses to contact them.

I called. Still not a clue in my bald head that I was wrong. the man I talked to, said get rid of it. I said I would, he said you are doing the right thing.

There was other words, but in hindsight they do not matter. I transferred it over to the store, got a trade and left.

The DOJ called the store back and said, The lower is contraband, The store owner turned it over to SJPD. I had to pay the store owner for the credit towards my purchase he had given me.

Now, the store owner, is still a friend. I have done business with him for years. I was on Active duty most that time. he got a call from DOJ. And complied with there wishes. This is smart.
I was stupid, My only intent when I started the thread on the THR was too warn others not to do the same thing. I doubt I am the only bonehead who did not read Bills FAQ sheet. This is not lower issue. this is a bonehead issue. The lower was in blatent violation. Open mag, pistol grip illegal stock. I was going to put in the mag block when I got the upper.

Again, double dumb. Sorry to have caused so much drama. Stevo.......

blacklisted
07-01-2006, 11:41 PM
I am Sgt stevo. The reason all this happened is because I was stupid. I thought that if I did have, own or control an upper. My lower, was legal.

So when I told, it was hinky at best, by a dog client, that is also An le guy. I decided to get rid of it. Still thinking that it was legal. I brought it into a store.

the store owner gave me the number of the DOJ, that he uses to contact them.

I called. Still not a clue in my bald head that I was wrong. the man I talked to, said get rid of it. I said I would, he said you are doing the right thing.

There was other words, but in hindsight they do not matter. I transferred it over to the store, got a trade and left.

The DOJ called the store back and said, The lower is contraband, The store owner turned it over to SJPD. I had to pay the store owner for the credit towards my purchase he had given me.

Now, the store owner, is still a friend. I have done business with him for years. I was on Active duty most that time. he got a call from DOJ. And complied with there wishes. This is smart.
I was stupid, My only intent when I started the thread on the THR was too warn others not to do the same thing. I doubt I am the only bonehead who did not read Bills FAQ sheet. This is not lower issue. this is a bonehead issue. The lower was in blatent violation. Open mag, pistol grip illegal stock. I was going to put in the mag block when I got the upper.

Again, double dumb. Sorry to have caused so much drama. Stevo.......

I know in hindsight it seems simple...but the store owner could have just removed the pistol grip. :(

kantstudien
07-02-2006, 12:00 AM
And the "felonious" stock. ;)

bu-bye
07-02-2006, 12:02 AM
Lets just all be happy that only money was lost and not years in the pen. Thanks for posting Sgt and giving us the full story.

Guys, don't paly around with this please. If you know what is wrong DON'T DO IT. Its not worth it. If you are unclear of the law do a search or even PM one of the Sr members who knows. I know I would be happy to lay it down for a fellow gun nut as would others here.

blkA4alb
07-02-2006, 12:03 AM
Lets just all be happy that only money was lost and not years in the pen. Thanks for posting Sgt and giving us the full story.

Guys, don't paly around with this please. If you know what is wrong DON'T DO IT. Its not worth it. If you are unclear of the law do a search or even PM one of the Sr members who knows. I know I would be happy to lay it down for a fellow gun nut as would others here.
I'm always happy to answer any questions as well. Ask away noobs :D .

Sgt stevo
07-02-2006, 1:31 PM
Only 11, You call me a nononono...I did two tours in the box, Also Braniac, There are Sgt between E-5 -E-9. Got my back broken. Then I got my career ended. I would very much like to meet you. I will be in c-bay on sunday at target masters. I am easy to spot. Come talk to me.

Im sure we can work it out.

You must be retired Col. And have a CIB, right?

rkt88edmo
07-02-2006, 1:44 PM
Hey Stevo,

Thanks for coming over here and sharing your story. It is too bad that you didn't just deconfigure, but it is hard when given advice from people you may trust. Hope you ignore the potty mouth(s) and stick around Calguns.

vonsmith
07-02-2006, 10:47 PM
Stevo,
Don't feel so bad. The gun laws in Kalifornia are getting so convoluted that only attorneys can sort it out. I've met a number of well meaning gun owners that have accidentally configured their rifles into AW's. One of them was a long time gun dealer. That's one of many reasons the laws here need to change. Life is complicated enough nowadays without having to constantly research the latest interpretations of gun laws and commit them to memory. The Kalifornia DOJ is fighting a losing battle, they are just too obsessed to admit it. I wonder how many people on this forum and throughout Kalifornia will become accidental felons some day.

BTW, don't pay attention to Mr. Potty Mouth. Courtesy is too easily forgotten in cyberspace.


=vonsmith=

kantstudien
07-02-2006, 10:52 PM
Who is Mr. Potty Mouth? :confused:

onley11
07-02-2006, 10:54 PM
This steven, I am offended that you insulted me. Please meet at target master nex sunday. I will be in c-bay. I dont take someone insulting my Mil career lightly. I put a thread out there. I was hurt bad, I am veteran. Are you? I was a staff sgt. I have been in three CZ for this country. I own a house in Campbell. And I am easy to find. I think if you have this anger towards me. the manly thing to do would be to tell me to my face.

Like I said, I am easy to find. Please be there, thank you

Ok SSgt. Steve, first, I don't know you, but I am glad you weren't charged in this deal. You sign on was pretty confusing to me. I am a USMC veteran, and we never called SSgt's Sgt's. Also, I was unaware that you were medically retired. Incomplete info. I am truly sorry you were hurt so badly, and think that you have earned the right to jump all over my butt (verbally) for calling you a bird without knowing what the true situation was. The way it was explained, you looked like you were being careless. Most people don't get an apology from me just because they got their feelings hurt, so understand I respect your sacrifice. I don't know what made you think I was angry, but I was dissapointed that the doj was given an opportunity to make things bad for everyone. I won't tell you to check facts yourself next time, because you're a big boy and figured that out already.

Think I will meet you at the range to get shot? Nope, got a family man, can't do it. I understand you're pissed but hopefully we understand each other better now.

onley11
07-02-2006, 10:57 PM
Who is Mr. Potty Mouth? :confused:
!@#$bird is pretty bad in military circles, so that would be me.

I kinda feel like one currently, actually.

adamsreeftank
07-02-2006, 11:17 PM
...
Think I will meet you at the range to get shot? Nope, got a family man, can't do it. I understand you're pissed but hopefully we understand each other better now.

Having known Stevo for quite some time, I don't think you would have to worry about getting shot. He might ask you to step outside and settle it like men however.

Hey Stevo. Thanks for clearing this up for everyone. The compulsives who read this daily (myself included) will jump on any real information about what the DOJ will do to off-list lower owners. You just happened to be at the wrong place at the wrong time.

See you next Sunday

onley11
07-02-2006, 11:27 PM
Gotcha, but SSgt. Steve doesn't sound like such a bad guy anymore, I don't want either of us to get into something the pd would really care about. It was a misunderstanding. I don't live anywhere near you guys anyway. Call me a chicken if you like. It's ok, I really don't care. Hope we can get along.

grammaton76
07-02-2006, 11:36 PM
!@#$bird is pretty bad in military circles, so that would be me.

Ok, now you've got me curious. What makes it worse than most words?

If it's something that can't be posted on the forum (i.e. sexual), feel free to PM me the answer. I'm curious since I've heard it in movies and such, and had just assumed it was a level comparable to ****head.

onley11
07-02-2006, 11:57 PM
Kinda like calling someone a lazy worthless s o b who can't be counted on to pull their own weight. In the military that is the worst thing you can be. In the Marine Corps swearing is a fine art, and it is usually diffucult to offend people with such thick skin. But ----bird will usually get someones attention for at least long enough for them to tell you to f off. You might even get them to do their job properly. :) But yes, it is offensive

Jicko
07-03-2006, 2:04 AM
Wrong.

This area is clearly not a confusing part of the law. 12276.1 is easy to understand for folks with even high school reading skills and in situations with plainly apparent features - it's only the edge conditions that get unclear. Ignorance of this basic law is not an excuse.

And there are probably thousands of ex-military guys that have technical firearm convications around the country. Many seem to have a "it can't happen to me" or "they aren't bustin' for that" attitude.


+1

Many that I have met, "understood" what needed to be done, and just plain unwilling to do that... and believed that *THEY* are not going to be THE one getting busted...

Just like... MOST, if not all, of us "understood" that the "65mph speed limit" means that you can drive 65mph or below.... yet.... many of us choose to "ignore" that... and go faster than 65mph.... and take the risk... of being pull over and issue speeding tix....

I don't think 12276.1 is hard to understand... and certainly a claim of "I couldn't understand 12276.1" won't stand too far in the court of law with a group of jury, who can totally understand 12276.1 w/o having a lawyer explain to them what is ok and what is not....

Anyways, guys..... stay safe.... don't do anything stupid.... just have fun with your fixed-mag-AR-with-evil-features OR your pistol-gripless-detachable-magazine-and-no-evil-feature-AR..... either of them is BETTER than NOT having an AR(CA-AR.....) like the days before Dec'05.....

vonsmith
07-03-2006, 8:52 AM
+1

Many that I have met, "understood" what needed to be done, and just plain unwilling to do that... and believed that *THEY* are not going to be THE one getting busted...

Just like... MOST, if not all, of us "understood" that the "65mph speed limit" means that you can drive 65mph or below.... yet.... many of us choose to "ignore" that... and go faster than 65mph.... and take the risk... of being pull over and issue speeding tix....

I don't think 12276.1 is hard to understand... and certainly a claim of "I couldn't understand 12276.1" won't stand too far in the court of law with a group of jury, who can totally understand 12276.1 w/o having a lawyer explain to them what is ok and what is not....

Anyways, guys..... stay safe.... don't do anything stupid.... just have fun with your fixed-mag-AR-with-evil-features OR your pistol-gripless-detachable-magazine-and-no-evil-feature-AR..... either of them is BETTER than NOT having an AR(CA-AR.....) like the days before Dec'05.....
I agree in principle that isn't too hard to understand 12276.1. This assumes that we set aside definition fuzziness issues like "capacity to accept", "pistol grip that protrudes conspicuously beneath...", and the "permanently altered" confusion. Yes it is simple, all by itself. However, how many simple things should we commit to permanent memory every day? Do you remember what the spark plug gap is on your car? How about your driver's license number? I guess we should review those things when we need to. Every time we do something should we trust our memory or run down a checklist to determine what the impact is? I have a relatively clear understanding of 12276.1... today. Ask me in 6 months and I probably will have to review the text. If I believe I have a clear recollection of the text I may rely on my memory to get me through. If I screw up I'm a unintentional felon. Life is complicated because it's made up of thousands of simple rules. To get by we often rely on "common sense" solutions or ask a friends opinion. Well the laws sometimes defy common sense and a friends memory may be as faulty as mine.

For those of us that read, discuss and try to interpret the gun laws on this forum regularly it seems simple. If guns are your only hobby and passion then certainly continually refresh your understanding of all the laws. For those, like myself, that have many other hobbies, interests and challenges in their life we'll have to drop in somewhere like this forum to ask what may sound like stupid "simple" questions.


=vonsmith=

Sgt stevo
07-03-2006, 10:26 AM
Kinda funny. Adam I will there. As to all others, No worries. I just take that ....bird word very serius. Please check out my work website.

www.cooperhaus.com You can watch police kick dogs my nonono and it will make you feel better.

. Much fun. Go to comments and photos, there is a vid of me being dropped and shaken by big shep. Also In training, that my Malinois Max. Im the bald white guy.

Adam, I got buch of .40 defense ammo. I will save you some. See ya there bud, Stevo.......

onley11
07-03-2006, 11:42 AM
Glad we could work this out. Can we use your dogs to protect our oll's.:D

adamsreeftank
07-03-2006, 11:46 AM
...
Adam, I got buch of .40 defense ammo. I will save you some. See ya there bud, Stevo.......

Sounds good Stevo.
See you there.

bonjing
07-03-2006, 3:33 PM
Kinda funny. Adam I will there. As to all others, No worries. I just take that ....bird word very serius. Please check out my work website.

www.cooperhaus.com You can watch police kick my nonono and it will make you feel better.

. Much fun. Go to comments and photos, there is a vid of me being dropped and shaken by big shep. Also In training, that my Malinois Max. Im the bald white guy.

Adam, I got buch of .40 defense ammo. I will save you some. See ya there bud, Stevo.......


dang it quicktime. :mad: nice dogs they have there. have always wanted a K9, wish i had the time to take care of one :( . do you own the place or jsut work there?

edit:
thor of cooperhaus looks beautiful.

also do you know what they run for $ ? have been looking at kraftwerks for a long time now and they run in the 2500+ for their pups.

Sgt stevo
07-03-2006, 9:28 PM
I am just a lacky dog handler up there. PUPs are $1,000 to 1,500. trained dogs are way pricey.

PM me. I will send you my phone# I will help if I can. I do not have any say in sales or money for that matter. But I have the owners ear. I can also find Malinois and dutch sheperds though another contact or two. Prices are about the same. If you like, e-mail the owner Brent, and he will call you. he is reasonable and a good man. Stevo

bonjing
07-03-2006, 9:53 PM
thanks Sgt. just looking right now, hopefully in the future, near future. I'm a little to busy right now (working 7 days a week) to devote the time needed to a dog but with those prices i have already saved the website as one of my favorites. :)