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jemaddux
06-27-2006, 10:38 PM
Means these would be an AW if this passes:

No pistol grips allowed SKS.........


1513



No folding stocks (Mini 14).....


1515


Not the 10/22 but no thumb hole stocks for most of these.....


1517


Just some food for thought:cool:

TKo_Productions
06-27-2006, 10:52 PM
I can barely even decipher what you're trying to say.

The mini-14 pictured, with the folding stock and pistol grip is already an AW. Regardless, the proposed definition would not change that. The same applies to thumbhole stocks (but not rimfire rifles).

Of those you listed, the proposed definition change would only affect the fixed magazine SKS (regardless of whether or not it had a telescoping (folding) stock or pistol grip).

12276.1. (a) Notwithstanding Section 12276, "assault weapon" shall also mean any of the following:
(1) A semiautomatic, centerfire rifle that has the capacity to accept a detachable magazine and any one of the following:
(A) A pistol grip that protrudes conspicuously beneath the action of the weapon.
(B) A thumbhole stock.
(C) A folding or telescoping stock.
(D) A grenade launcher or flare launcher.
(E) A flash suppressor.
(F) A forward pistol grip.

tenpercentfirearms
06-27-2006, 10:53 PM
James, what are you talking about? Be more specific, if "what" passes?

The SKS would be illegal if they change 980.20 regardless of the features because it would be a detachable magazine SKS. So who cares about the pistol grip.

The folding stock Mini-14 is already illegal. 12276.1 says, "a folding or telescoping stock".

Again all thumbhole stocks are already illegal on detachable magazine centerfire rifles.

Did someone hijack your log-in name because I am a little shocked at what a senseless thread this is. You usually make more sense. Am I missing something? Please be more clear.

blkA4alb
06-27-2006, 10:55 PM
And thus my point. What about those of us that have our sks configured with thumbhole stocks etc legally right now. If they change the CCR they would be making something illegal that was formerly legal, requiring a registration period.

EDIT: Nevermind :) . I'm good, figured out. *smack* He confused me.

tenpercentfirearms
06-27-2006, 10:56 PM
If they change the CCR they would be making something illegal that was formerly legal, requiring a registration period.The rule change would make ALL SKSs illegal. It doesn't matter what features you have on them.

blkA4alb
06-27-2006, 10:58 PM
The rule change would make ALL SKSs illegal. It doesn't matter what features you have on them.
Yes yes yes..I've known that for the past months. He confuzzled me :) .

TKo_Productions
06-27-2006, 11:00 PM
And thus my point. What about those of us that have our sks configured with thumbhole stocks etc legally right now. If they change the CCR they would be making something illegal that was formerly legal, requiring a registration period.

An SKS that can accept a detachable magazine is already defined as an assault weapon. Regardless of the type of stock it has.

12276. As used in this chapter, "assault weapon" shall mean the following designated semiautomatic firearms:

(11) SKS with detachable magazine.

Even if you had the tradition wooden stock on it, without a thumbhole, or pistol grip, or folding stock, as soon as they change the definition of "detachable magazine" to require "permanency" then immediately all SKS's become assault weapons. All by virtue of the fact that the duckbill magazine isn't fixed "permanently."

SKSs configured just like these would become assault weapons:

http://www.headsbunker.com/img/BestOf/sks.jpg

blkA4alb
06-27-2006, 11:06 PM
Thanks for posting Tko, but got it :p . (See previous posts.) I still can't believe I posted that earler. I've known this stuff...grr..:rolleyes:

Crazed_SS
06-27-2006, 11:08 PM
I think a reasonable person would consider the SKS magazine to be permanently installed considering that's how it was came from the factory and the fact that you basically have to disassemble the gun to remove the mag.

TKo_Productions
06-27-2006, 11:11 PM
Thanks for posting Tko, but got it :p . (See previous posts.) I still can't believe I posted that earler. I've known this stuff...grr..:rolleyes:

Hey, the point is that you know and understand the impact that all of this has. Don't beat yourself up because you were momentarily confused. When it happens to me, I hope you'll be around to put me back in line. :)

TKo_Productions
06-27-2006, 11:16 PM
I think a reasonable person would consider the SKS magazine to be permanently installed considering that's how it was came from the factory and the fact that you basically have to disassemble the gun to remove the mag.

There's no application of the reasonable person standard. Look at the proposed definition, it's clearly written:

The proposed amendment will define a sixth term, "capacity to accept a detachable magazine", as meaning "capable of accommodating a detachable magazine, but shall not be construed to include a firearm that has been permanently altered so that it cannot accommodate a detachable magazine."

Based on the proposed definition, is the SKS capable of accommodating a detachable magazine? Most assuredly it is. Anyone who has ever cleaned or striped down their SKS has placed it in such a position.

Is the SKS permanently altered so that it cannot accommodate a detachable magazine? Depends on what you mean by "permanently" ;) But if OLLs with the various widely available mag-locks aren't considered "permanent" then the SKS surely isn't either.

blkA4alb
06-27-2006, 11:26 PM
Hey, the point is that you know and understand the impact that all of this has. Don't beat yourself up because you were momentarily confused. When it happens to me, I hope you'll be around to put me back in line. :)
Course, I'll set ya straight. Thats what I'm here for, well, and to learn. And I've learned a LOT here. 275 more posts to 1000! Woot :D .

Crazed_SS
06-27-2006, 11:33 PM
There's no application of the reasonable person standard.


True, but when things like this go to trial, that is often the standard used.


Is the SKS permanently altered so that it cannot accommodate a detachable magazine?


IMO, yes. It came from the factory that way.


Depends on what you mean by "permanently" But if OLLs with the various widely available mag-locks aren't considered "permanent" then the SKS surely isn't either.


It takes much more effort to remove the SKS magazine than it does to manipulate a AR-15 mag-lock kit.


I completely understand your points, but I think everyone's concern is misplaced when talking about SKS's. The DOJ already has the SKS issue covered. They even have special language for the SKS in there. The SKS is a non-issue. The issue is Off-list AR-15 receivers. The spirt of the law and legislative intent is what is important here.

hoffmang
06-27-2006, 11:36 PM
It takes about the same amount of effort to remove the "fixed" magazine on my SKS as on my OLL AR.

Omega13device
06-27-2006, 11:54 PM
Even if you had the tradition wooden stock on it, without a thumbhole, or pistol grip, or folding stock, as soon as they change the definition of "detachable magazine" to require "permanency" then immediately all SKS's become assault weapons. All by virtue of the fact that the duckbill magazine isn't fixed "permanently."

SKSs configured just like these would become assault weapons:

http://www.headsbunker.com/img/BestOf/sks.jpg

Not sure I follow your logic. Even with a change in definition of "capacity to accept a detachable magazine", a centerfire rifle would also have to have one of the characteristics A through F below to be considered an assault weapon. I don't see any of those features in the picture above. What am I missing?


12276.1. (a) Notwithstanding Section 12276, "assault weapon" shall
also mean any of the following:
(1) A semiautomatic, centerfire rifle that has the capacity to
accept a detachable magazine and any one of the following:
(A) A pistol grip that protrudes conspicuously beneath the action
of the weapon.
(B) A thumbhole stock.
(C) A folding or telescoping stock.
(D) A grenade launcher or flare launcher.
(E) A flash suppressor.
(F) A forward pistol grip.

Crazed_SS
06-27-2006, 11:58 PM
Not sure I follow your logic. Even with a change in definition of "capacity to accept a detachable magazine", a centerfire rifle would also have to have one of the characteristics A through F below to be considered an assault weapon. I don't see any of those features in the picture above. What am I missing

Well the SKS gets it's own special language.

A SKS w/ a detachable mag is an AW even thought it only has one evil feature (detachable mag). It's so stupid because a SKS with detachable mag is identical in function to a M1A which isnt an AW

blkA4alb
06-28-2006, 12:12 AM
Well the SKS gets it's own special language.

A SKS w/ a detachable mag is an AW even thought it only has one evil feature (detachable mag). It's so stupid because a SKS with detachable mag is identical in function to a M1A which isnt an AW
Nuh uh! Nuh uh! The sks has those evil curved magazines...the straight ones are less deadly :rolleyes: :rolleyes: .

TKo_Productions
06-28-2006, 12:14 AM
Not sure I follow your logic. Even with a change in definition of "capacity to accept a detachable magazine", a centerfire rifle would also have to have one of the characteristics A through F below to be considered an assault weapon. I don't see any of those features in the picture above. What am I missing?


12276.1. (a) Notwithstanding Section 12276, "assault weapon" shall
also mean any of the following:
(1) A semiautomatic, centerfire rifle that has the capacity to
accept a detachable magazine and any one of the following:
(A) A pistol grip that protrudes conspicuously beneath the action
of the weapon.
(B) A thumbhole stock.
(C) A folding or telescoping stock.
(D) A grenade launcher or flare launcher.
(E) A flash suppressor.
(F) A forward pistol grip.

There are two parts to CA's AW ban. In 1989 there was the Roberti-Roos Act that created PC 12276: which banned assault weapons by name. Then, in 1999, there was SB23 which banned assault weapons by feature thereby creating PC 12276.1

Look up PC section 12276 and it specifies:


12276. As used in this chapter, "assault weapon" shall mean the following designated semiautomatic firearms:
(a) All of the following specified rifles:
(1) All AK series including, but not limited to, the models identified as follows:
(A) Made in China AK, AKM, AKS, AK47, AK47S, 56, 56S, 84S, and 86S.
(B) Norinco 56, 56S, 84S, and 86S.
(C) Poly Technologies AKS and AK47.
(D) MAADI AK47 and ARM.
(2) UZI and Galil.
(3) Beretta AR-70.
(4) CETME Sporter.
(5) Colt AR-15 series.
(6) Daewoo K-1, K-2, Max 1, Max 2, AR 100, and AR110 C.
(7) Fabrique Nationale FAL, LAR, FNC, 308 Match, and Sporter.
(8) MAS 223.
(9) HK-91, HK-93, HK-94, and HK-PSG-1
(10) The following MAC types:
(A) RPB Industries Inc. sM10 and sM11.
(B) SWD Incorporated M11.
(11) SKS with detachable magazine.
(12) SIG AMT, PE-57, SG 550, and SG 551.
(13) Springfield Armory BM59 and SAR-48.
(14) Sterling MK-6.
(15) Steyer AUG.
(16) Valmet M62S, M71S, and M78S.
(17) Armalite AR-180.
(18) Bushmaster Assault Rifle.
(19) Calico M-900.
(20) J&R ENG M-68.
(21) Weaver Arms Nighthawk.
(b) All of the following specified pistols:
(1) UZI.
(2) Encom MP-9 and MP-45.
(3) The following MAC types:
(A) RPB Industries Inc. sM10 and sM11.
(B) SWD Incorporated M-11.
(C) Advance Armament Inc. M-11.
(D) Military Armament Corp. Ingram M-11.
(4) Intratec TEC-9.
(5) Sites Spectre.
(6) Sterling MK-7.
(7) Calico M-950.
(8) Bushmaster Pistol.
(c) All of the following specified shotguns:
(1) Franchi SPAS 12 and LAW 12.
(2) Striker 12.
(3) The Streetsweeper type S/S Inc. SS/12.

A little off topic, but a post I made way back when goes into further detail (read the responses that follow):

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=28100

kantstudien
06-28-2006, 12:27 AM
That first SKS in the picture is already illegal since it has a "dangerous and destructive device" attached. ;)

What if DOJ starts creating detachable magazines for every semi-auto rifle ever created, and then rules that everything semi-auto has the "capacity to accept" a detachable magazine? :eek:

anotherone
06-28-2006, 12:50 AM
Here's a pop quiz SKS question to get you thinking :)!

If someone registered an SKS that had a chinese 20 round fixed magazine installed in 2000 would they then be allowed to use detachable magazines with this rifle because it's already an AW?

kantstudien
06-28-2006, 1:59 AM
Yes, because it would not become more assault weapon-er. Assault weapons are not a degreed property, either it is registered and can have all features, or else it is not registered and can have no features. Unless you are talking about "category 4" :rolleyes:

dmckean44
06-28-2006, 3:14 AM
Yes, because it would not become more assault weapon-er. Assault weapons are not a degreed property, either it is registered and can have all features, or else it is not registered and can have no features. Unless you are talking about "category 4" :rolleyes:

I think it's actually "either it is registered and can have all features, or else it is not registered and can have one feature.

kantstudien
06-28-2006, 3:25 AM
or else it is not registered and can have one feature.

If it is a named AW, then it simply cannot exist in the state legally (e.g. SKS Sporter) if it was not registered. If it is a "off list" semiauto (unregistered) and has "the capacity to accept a detachable mag," then it can have zero SB23 features.

xenophobe
06-28-2006, 3:28 AM
Here's a pop quiz SKS question to get you thinking :)!

If someone registered an SKS that had a chinese 20 round fixed magazine installed in 2000 would they then be allowed to use detachable magazines with this rifle because it's already an AW?

If they actually let you register a SKS in 2000, then yes.

KenpoProfessor
06-28-2006, 4:54 AM
Is going to ban, or make illegal any M1's, SKS, Mini 14's & 30's, Marlin Camp Carbines, and Ruger PC's. My PC4 has the capability to accept a 20 or 30 rd mag, but it doesn't have the "EVIL" features other than that. It's impossible to load from anywhere but the magaizine. I really wish the DOJ would pull their heads outta their rectums instead of just knee jerk reacting.

Guess I'll be sending in a few letters and emails for this.

Have a great Kenpo day

Clyde

Omega13device
06-28-2006, 6:58 AM
There are two parts to CA's AW ban. In 1989 there was the Roberti-Roos Act that created PC 12276: which banned assault weapons by name. Then, in 1999, there was SB23 which banned assault weapons by feature thereby creating PC 12276.1


Thanks tko!

xenophobe
06-28-2006, 7:01 AM
Is going to ban, or make illegal any M1's, SKS, Mini 14's & 30's, Marlin Camp Carbines, and Ruger PC's. My PC4 has the capability to accept a 20 or 30 rd mag, but it doesn't have the "EVIL" features other than that.

That's not true. Detachable magazine plus any evil feature... M1As, Mini-14's, SU-16's, etc... their status won't change.

chris
06-28-2006, 7:34 AM
i think they are trying to define what "is" is again. this whole thing is so confusing i have no idea if and i mean my old a## SKS will be banned. i harldy use it. it will never be modified. but the DOJ really does not care. this whole thing is one giant mess. we really need to fire those people in sacramento this fall.

jemaddux
06-28-2006, 7:54 AM
Some SKS rifles will be effected. There are hundreds if not thousands of existing SKS rifles that have evil features. These have been allowed for sale by the DOJ for six years and now they are banned????:rolleyes:
Tapco's and similar stocks have been sold for years and are legal with a fixed magazine.
http://www.hunt101.com/img/417724.JPG


I guess I confused some people here but I at least made you think about this and why this new reg they are trying to pass would screw us all even more then some are saying.

The kit for this about SKS is legally sold all over, Turners even sold them at one time. Now, if this new reg was to pass that the DOJ is trying this legal SKS would in fact become illegal. Many people have said "OH NO THIS WON'T EFFECT ANYTHING", I just wanted to show some pictures that at least would get some people seeing that yes these rifles could in fact be configured illegally.

I got your attention at least and got you thinking:D

tenpercentfirearms
06-28-2006, 9:07 AM
I got your attention at least and got you thinking.Hmmmmmm. I don't know if further confusing newbies is an effective teaching tool. Not to mention you claimed two configurations that are already illegal would be illegal, sort of implying they are legal now, which is false and could get someone in trouble. Not something I would want to do personally, but we are all entitled to free speech.

xenophobe
06-28-2006, 9:10 AM
Not just teaching... MISINFORMING people... that Mini-14 with a folding stock has already been banned by SB-23. It is not legal to own unless you registered it as an AW before Jan 1, 2001.

jemaddux
06-28-2006, 10:55 AM
Not just teaching... MISINFORMING people... that Mini-14 with a folding stock has already been banned by SB-23. It is not legal to own unless you registered it as an AW before Jan 1, 2001.


Its not MISINFORMING as you put it. I got a couple stupid emails saying it wasn't possible for a Mini to be illegal. All I was showing is they are out there and yes could be set up to be illegal. I already said that it wasn't clear. But to make myself clear, these kits are out there and YES you can put that one extra feature on your firearm that would make you illegal. The first SKS is legal as it sits right now. You can have the kit on it do to its a FIXED ten round, if the new wording passes that same firearm would be illegal because with changes that would not destroy the firearm it could BE MADE TO "EXCEPT" a larger cap mag. Now, can we agree on that one point?

Sorry, I won't post after I have been working a 16 hour days again:D