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View Full Version : OT but alittle disappointed with "The Pacific"


cruddymutt
11-19-2010, 2:06 PM
My wife bought the Blu-ray version for me yesterday. Im on episode 5 and alittle irritated by how much sex is in it so far. BoB didnt have but one scene and it wasnt that bad compared to this one so. Im not some old koot either, Im only 35 but my kids have been excited to watch this and its a little weird with a 12 and 13 year old!
Ahhhh maybe I am an old koot now. Anyway, rant over. Series is good so far other than the sex stuff.

Wildeman_13
11-19-2010, 2:19 PM
I watched the series when it first aired. I am a big WW2 buff and was looking forward to the "Band of Brothers - Pacific". I realize they took the stories of many different guys and combined them into this series. But I never cared about any of them. It was like watching a documentary. Whereas with BoB you cared when someone got hurt or died. You wanted them all to make it through the series, but you knew the most of them would not, yet you kept your fingers crossed. Pacific just didn't have that. I will not be spending my money on the DVDs. :(

Someguy925
11-19-2010, 2:40 PM
mmm I think the pacing is what is currently throwing me off. BoB and the Pacific are completely different when i expected both to be roughly the same.

POLICESTATE
11-19-2010, 2:41 PM
I thought The Pacific was to Band of Brothers what A Thin Red Line was to Saving Private Ryan. Most of it was a waste of my time, sure it tries to delve into some of the main character's lives but in some weird, mostly unrelatable way. The battle scenes (what few there were) were pretty good, but most of them were too short.

I didn't care for the characters in this nearly as much as Band of Brothers. Although I did like the Gunnery Sgt. Great guy!

SuperSet
11-19-2010, 2:46 PM
That series has some of the goriest and macabre scenes for an HBO series. Just wait till you get to see the exposed-brain-filled episode on Okinawa. But some are bothered by the sex and nudity?

srt4geezer
11-19-2010, 2:48 PM
I think part of the point IS the difference of the pacific vs europe. The pacific was a meat grinder. In europe you actually had missions, in the pacific they had islands. They would just keep bringing in new guys to die & move the ones that survived to the next island. It was like the same battle that never ended. You could never kill enough of them to end it. In europe you were dealing with buildings, bridges & fences, land that you undertood & was familiar. The pacific was just island jungle. Everyone fighting over dirt. The crazy pace is so frustrating, but imagine what it was like to actually be there going through it. Such an ugly situation.

CEDaytonaRydr
11-19-2010, 3:03 PM
My wife bought the Blu-ray version for me yesterday. Im on episode 5 and alittle irritated by how much sex is in it so far. BoB didnt have but one scene and it wasnt that bad compared to this one so. Im not some old koot either, Im only 35 but my kids have been excited to watch this and its a little weird with a 12 and 13 year old!
Ahhhh maybe I am an old koot now. Anyway, rant over. Series is good so far other than the sex stuff.

That was the reality of the situation, though. Tons of American GIs came home with British/Dutch/French wives after WWII. Moreover, numerous European women were left to bare children born out of wedlock from American GIs in Europe who had returned home after the war.

If nothing else, they're not pulling any punches as far as "realism" is concerned...

Haggar85
11-19-2010, 3:04 PM
F#(!( that S#*t i scrub barrels for no man LOL

mattja
11-19-2010, 5:09 PM
I think part of the point IS the difference of the pacific vs europe. The pacific was a meat grinder. In europe you actually had missions, in the pacific they had islands. They would just keep bringing in new guys to die & move the ones that survived to the next island. It was like the same battle that never ended. You could never kill enough of them to end it. In europe you were dealing with buildings, bridges & fences, land that you undertood & was familiar. The pacific was just island jungle. Everyone fighting over dirt. The crazy pace is so frustrating, but imagine what it was like to actually be there going through it. Such an ugly situation.

Agreed. And "meat grinder" is an appropriate description. Coral islands, an enemy that will not surrender: about the best analogy I can find is hell on earth. It's amazing we didn't lose even more Marines to suicide. The carnage on Okinawa had to affect people. My dad was at Iwo Jima and there's no question it affected him. He never liked to talk about it, but what little he would tell us was a freaking nightmare.

metalliman545
11-19-2010, 10:43 PM
Gore, violence death, torture, graphic re enactment=fine for kids
boobies, simulated sex=HORRIBLE! CALL THE FCC

theres an old punk rock chorus line talking about the FCC and what they think is appropriate that comes to my mind
"drop a bomb in a heart beat but a boob offends ya?"

Fate
11-19-2010, 11:01 PM
Read the books. With the Old Breed and Helmet for my Pillow. Doing so gave me a much different perspective of the series. I like the Pacific a lot. Though they did combine events and attribute things to different people (often, the main supporting characters instead of a random marine) to simplify the story.

I recently befriended a man who served in the Coast Guard during WWII. He drove the Higgins boats at Guadalcanal and Iwo Jima and the amtracs at Peleliu among other island hops. He's not said a lot about those battles but I'm working on him, slowly.

Funniest thing I've heard from him so far is his story about wanting to join the Navy, so his buddy and he went down to enlist. They saw a sign with ships and sailors and joined up. Turned out to be the Coast Guard. His dad laughed at him and said, well, at least you'll be safe and far from the action. Little did he know that the CG was used to as the landing fleet in the Pacific. The Navy guys stayed out of range...safe and sound. The CG guys hit the beach time and time and time again.

Dr.Mauser
11-19-2010, 11:03 PM
I didnt like it, I cant put my finger on why, but I just didnt.

metalliman545
11-20-2010, 12:18 AM
i liked it more than band of brothers

7.62x54R
11-20-2010, 12:59 AM
I only disliked the fact in the last episode the guy cried like a baby when he went hunting. I know people that served in Vietnam and saw there buddies being blown to bits but still can hunt and shoot guns.

Rogerbutthead
11-20-2010, 1:25 AM
As compared to Band of Brothers, I thought the Pacific had less likable people in the cast of characters, some people did things that were disgusting and the battle scenes were much gorier.

In short, it was probably the more accurate of the two.

metalliman545
11-20-2010, 1:27 AM
I only disliked the fact in the last episode the guy cried like a baby when he went hunting. I know people that served in Vietnam and saw there buddies being blown to bits but still can hunt and shoot guns.

dont want to start a huge arguement but seriously? comparing vietnam to ww2? seriously? you have no idea how angry this has made me. i had an uncle who was AT pearl harbor when it was bombed, he REFUSES to go on any type of boat because of it. oh it was just some planes bombing some ships right? PTSD is real. just because your "vietnam buddies" were vets doesnt mean they saw action. its like all these POG F%$#%^ claiming to have PTSD from hearing IEDs or gun shots go off. people like you with comments like that sicken me. that Marine went through hell, and your telling ME a Veteran, a real non POG vet that oh well he was a wimp, he cant shoot guns no more lol. ill tell you something, SERVING in another country is NOT the same as going to another country and FIGHTING. like i did, and all my brothers. take your comment and shove it up your ***.

Datamancer
11-20-2010, 1:56 AM
One thing that really surprised me (warning to OP: Spoiler Alert) was that they didn't show the mass suicides of the Pelelui natives after they were brainwashed by the Japanese to think Americans were all savage barbarians who were going to rape their children in front of them, wear their entrails, etc. From a narrative stance, if you're looking for a real "grabber" of an image to really illustrate the horrors of those battles, why didn't Tom Hanks use that?

-~D~-

glennsche
11-20-2010, 2:02 AM
i echo the sentiments of some who find it funny that watching gory war violence with 12 year olds is fine but the sex makes the OP uncomfortable. heh.

dont forget to teach your kids about both!

7.62x54R
11-20-2010, 7:07 PM
dont want to start a huge arguement but seriously? comparing vietnam to ww2? seriously? you have no idea how angry this has made me. i had an uncle who was AT pearl harbor when it was bombed, he REFUSES to go on any type of boat because of it. oh it was just some planes bombing some ships right? PTSD is real. just because your "vietnam buddies" were vets doesnt mean they saw action. its like all these POG F%$#%^ claiming to have PTSD from hearing IEDs or gun shots go off. people like you with comments like that sicken me. that Marine went through hell, and your telling ME a Veteran, a real non POG vet that oh well he was a wimp, he cant shoot guns no more lol. ill tell you something, SERVING in another country is NOT the same as going to another country and FIGHTING. like i did, and all my brothers. take your comment and shove it up your ***.

Not comparing WWII to Vietnam. Just talking about it in general. The character tries so hard to be tough and then is a baby. No offense to anyone. Shell shock is real i know it is. So take a pill and sit down

cruddymutt
11-20-2010, 7:32 PM
It is kind of weird how the violence didnt bother me with my kids as much as the sex did. After Call of Duty, Private Ryan, etc I guess we are just jaded by the gore, I dont know.
When I made the OP I was getting worried that this was going to turn into another 'Pearl Harbor" movie. I have finished the series and if I compare it to Band of Brothers then I was disappointed. I believe this is due to my interest in the Eastern more than the Pacific theatre. As a stand alone series though, it was pretty good.
I wondered where the mass suicides were, I expected them to be in the show. I also was surprised there was hardly anything on Iwo Jima (I missed sections of a few episodes, my Dad was in the hospital so was getting alot of phone calls from Mom so maybe I missed it).
I think I understand where the filmakers were trying to go with The Pacific ie. the hardships both mental and physical the Marines went though. I just dont think they fully hit it home, with me anyways.
Definatly worth watching and I will watch it again. I was Army but Ive always respected the Marines. God bless the Devil Dogs.

Jarhead
11-20-2010, 8:43 PM
It was a lot dirtier War than against the Germans, the Japanese soldier was more fanatical, brutal and fought to the end while the Germans surrendered in mass once the situation was untenable. European battlefield was for cities, full of civilians and the Pacific had no such amenities, no liberty or leave in cities. You have to read the books to get the whole story ................ Hanks seemed to have more sympathy for the Japanese in Pacific

Doheny
11-20-2010, 8:47 PM
I heard an interview w/ Dale Dye where he said they were trying to get a broader audience. It must of worked; my wife and step-daughter watched the series with me.

Dye also felt the story of Basilone and his wife was notable and should be told.

16in50calNavalRifle
11-20-2010, 11:01 PM
Datamancer - perhaps you're thinking of Saipan for the Japanese civilian suicides (at Marpi Pt. in the north)? I don't think Pelileu had significant Japanese civilian presence, whereas Saipan was actually Japanese-administered territory following WWI and the award of mandate to that former German colony by the League of Nations.

Everyone's mileage will vary, but I was totally disappointed in the series. Important to recall that telling a coherent, enlightening, engaging narrative of the sprawling Pacific war in 10 episodes was probably impossible. BoB's magic was partly that the real story behind it was incredible - the core of a small unit that actually was at the center of almost every key action in the theater. This was extremely rare in Europe, and probably unheard of in the Pacific. So there was a natural coherence and logic to BoB's actual history that was absent in the newer series.

But even with that - and being forced to cobble together a series primarily out of 3 memoirs - I thought the new series was so-so at best. There were some glaring problems - spending almost an entire episode on Lekkie's Australia R&R romance, which pretty much just vanished into the ether and had no bearing on the rest even of HIS story, was bizarre (and yes, the sex scenes were gratuitous, esp. in a series that was still off to a stumbling start, at best). Aside from the Basilone segments, the Guadalcanal episode really gave little idea to the viewer of the chaos and desperation of the situation for the Marines in the early months, and the scene of the Marines appearing to toy with a lone crazed surviving Japanese officer the morning after the Matanikau River battle was ridiculous in every respect. Sounds like a nit-pick, but even the over-long credit sequences stood out - they ate up time the creators didn't have to spare to begin with.

I appreciate the difficulty of the task and am thankful the series was done. I have been way into this historical topic for a long time, and besides the usual books have studied unit histories and official reports and done quite a few interviews for the Lib. of Congress Veterans' History Project. One of my most treasured friends is a Guadalcanal/Okinawa vet that I volunteer with at a military museum. So I will lap up just about anything on the topic. The series got much stronger after the shaky first few episodes, but it's not in the same class - or galaxy - as BoB, either as history or drama.

Here's to hoping the new Midway movie will capture even a portion of the nearly unbelievable drama and importance of that true story.

hunteran
11-20-2010, 11:15 PM
I only disliked the fact in the last episode the guy cried like a baby when he went hunting. I know people that served in Vietnam and saw there buddies being blown to bits but still can hunt and shoot guns.

That event actually happened.

TregoMark
11-20-2010, 11:17 PM
My wife bought the Blu-ray version for me yesterday. Im on episode 5 and alittle irritated by how much sex is in it so far. BoB didnt have but one scene and it wasnt that bad compared to this one so. Im not some old koot either, Im only 35 but my kids have been excited to watch this and its a little weird with a 12 and 13 year old!
Ahhhh maybe I am an old koot now. Anyway, rant over. Series is good so far other than the sex stuff.

If you read the books that "The Pacific" are based on, you'll understand why this series is different from BOB.

Rogerbutthead
11-20-2010, 11:44 PM
The series has made me buy the Sledge book, but I haven't yet got around to reading it.

I have however read the various accounts of the latest Medal of Honor winner and I feel sorry for myself that I won't probably be around to see an accurate miniseries regarding our current generation of military personnel in Iraq and Afghanistan.

I don't think they are any less than WWII's "greatest generation".

Full Clip
11-21-2010, 12:03 AM
That series has some of the goriest and macabre scenes for an HBO series. Just wait till you get to see the exposed-brain-filled episode on Okinawa. But some are bothered by the sex and nudity?

This.
Truly one of the most disturbing shows to ever air in the US.
Personally, I would not let my pre-teen kids watch it due to the violence, not the sex.

Hanks seemed to have more sympathy for the Japanese in Pacific

Only because we dropped the bomb. The Hollywood Left will always downplay the atrocities of the Japanese because they feel the US is guilty of the ultimate atrocities at Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

JDay
11-21-2010, 1:07 AM
That was the reality of the situation, though. Tons of American GIs came home with British/Dutch/French wives after WWII. Moreover, numerous European women were left to bare children born out of wedlock from American GIs in Europe who had returned home after the war.

If nothing else, they're not pulling any punches as far as "realism" is concerned...

None of this series takes place in Europe, after all, it is called 'The Pacific'.

campperrykid
11-21-2010, 4:06 AM
:rolleyes:
I only disliked the fact in the last episode the guy cried like a baby when he went hunting. I know people that served in Vietnam and saw there buddies being blown to bits but still can hunt and shoot guns.

Nothing personal.
I have rarely seen more ignorance packed into 2 sentences.

Jarhead
11-21-2010, 8:11 AM
+1 CPK obviously never been around men who have fired shots in anger, nothing that a Trip to DC and visit to the Wall couldn't cure.

Jarhead
11-21-2010, 8:19 AM
the comments from the Doggie Cabby to Leckie in the Last Episode sum it all best ................ and yes if we only had the Directors with the Stones to make movies on our new Heros without all the Lefty twist. Taking Chance ...................

beerman
11-21-2010, 9:11 AM
Read the books. With the Old Breed and Helmet for my Pillow. Doing so gave me a much different perspective of the series. I like the Pacific a lot. Though they did combine events and attribute things to different people (often, the main supporting characters instead of a random marine) to simplify the story.

I recently befriended a man who served in the Coast Guard during WWII. He drove the Higgins boats at Guadalcanal and Iwo Jima and the amtracs at Peleliu among other island hops. He's not said a lot about those battles but I'm working on him, slowly.

Funniest thing I've heard from him so far is his story about wanting to join the Navy, so his buddy and he went down to enlist. They saw a sign with ships and sailors and joined up. Turned out to be the Coast Guard. His dad laughed at him and said, well, at least you'll be safe and far from the action. Little did he know that the CG was used to as the landing fleet in the Pacific. The Navy guys stayed out of range...safe and sound. The CG guys hit the beach time and time and time again.

I'm gonna have to ask my pop about this...He was a Navy Cox on a higgins boat and participated in the invasions of the Gilberts,Sullivans,Tarawa and Okie. He never made mention of coast guard crews manning the invasion landing boats (the landing ships,yes). As a side note, he never talked about the war untill I was well into my 40s (him in his seventys)....I can tell you PTSD is real, and its really a shame that it took so long for the government to recognize it.

paul0660
11-21-2010, 9:26 AM
I can tell you PTSD is real, and its really a shame that it took so long for the government to recognize it.

It's hardly a recent acknowledgment:

http://www.ptsdsupport.net/evolutionof_ptsd.html

Jarhead
11-21-2010, 10:41 AM
before Actors were wennies, Eddie Albert drove Landing crafts, James Arness wounded at Anzio, Charles Durning wounded Battle of Bulge, Lee Marvin wounded Battle of Saipan, Charles Bronson wounded as B-29 Gunner ................ then the most famous doggie of all Audie.

Springfield45
11-21-2010, 3:31 PM
I didn't like it. I didn't like how they tried to make it out like our soldiers were the same as the Japanese and committing the same atrocities. Tom Hanks comments trying to make the "Pacific" relevant to our time even pissed me off.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2010/03/17/entertainment/main6307437.shtml

After I read the book "With the old bread" about the real Pvt. "Sledge" Hammer it was clear they took to much creative liaison with a slanted view of war. Read the book "With the old bread" it is ten times better than the Pacific.

Jarhead
11-21-2010, 5:06 PM
Tommy had his agenda in making Pacific, I agreed he went out of his way to make our Troops look more barbaric when in fact it was pretty even ................ it was a more barbaric war then the war in Europe ............... except for the Nazi's and their Concentration Camps, murdering of innocent civilians but between combatants its was as barbaric as it could get - no quarter given no quarter expected.

Rogerbutthead
11-21-2010, 7:06 PM
I am not sure that people are remembering that in BoB they showed at least one US soldier shooting German POWs. Not to mention the scene showing French troops killing German prisoners.

Hell, I remember seeing Saving Private Ryan in the theater and when a US soldier in that film killed a couple of surrendering Germans, a woman near me started to cry.

So other than the gold teeth stuff, I didn't see a huge difference in how US troops were portrayed in Europe or in the Pacific. (Certainly the Ambrose book and the series showed that both in Europe and in the Pacific US soldiers stole/souveniered what was around and from each other.)

I thought the Japanese troops were shown in a class by themselves. Do people forget that the first dead US troops seen in the Pacific have been mutilated by the Japanese (the genitalia in mouth stuff) - certainly I do not remember the Germans or Allies doing that in any Hanks related productions.

From what I have seen in history books, the Japanese WWII military deserved that and probably far worse portrayals in any war film/miniseries.

So I thought Hanks/Spielberg did a good job in both miniseries as well as SPR.

Fate
11-21-2010, 8:39 PM
I'm gonna have to ask my pop about this...He was a Navy Cox on a higgins boat and participated in the invasions of the Gilberts,Sullivans,Tarawa and Okie. He never made mention of coast guard crews manning the invasion landing boats (the landing ships,yes). As a side note, he never talked about the war untill I was well into my 40s (him in his seventys)....I can tell you PTSD is real, and its really a shame that it took so long for the government to recognize it.

I'd be interested in what you find out. I also didn't intend to disparage the Navy forces. My granddad was on the U.S.S. Lexington (CV2) and later served with the Carrier Aircraft Support Unit stationed in the Admiralty Islands off of New Guinea. I will admit to leaning on my friend's recollections as to who drove the boats ashore. Likely it was both branches of servicemen.

Datamancer
11-22-2010, 4:41 PM
Let's not forget about the "rape of Nanking"...some of the most brutal war atrocities committed by the Japanese, rivaling those of the Khmer Rouge in Pnom Phen.

-~D~-

Datamancer
11-22-2010, 4:45 PM
Datamancer - perhaps you're thinking of Saipan for the Japanese civilian suicides (at Marpi Pt. in the north)? I don't think Pelileu had significant Japanese civilian presence, whereas Saipan was actually Japanese-administered territory following WWI and the award of mandate to that former German colony by the League of Nations.



I might be, but I could have sworn it was Peleliu. The History Channel (or "The Hitlery Channel" as I like to call it due to every other show being about Hitler) had just released the "WW2 in HD" series shortly before I watched The Pacific and I could have sworn they showed the mass suicides in Peleiu...could be mistaken though. In any case, it definitely happened somewhere in the campaign and I'm still surprised they didn't address it- whole families flinging themselves off of cliffs in unison, fathers shooting their wives and children before turning the guns on themselves, etc.

-~D~-

Jarhead
11-23-2010, 7:42 AM
the suicides in Peleliu were Japanese soldiers setting off grenades to their stomachs, there might have been Korean Laborers but I doubt too many if any civilians?

Tallship
11-23-2010, 7:58 AM
For a more complete understanding of why the Japanese troops acted like they did, read the book Flyboys. It goes into a detailed explanation of how the troops were trained and what they were trained to do. Also, as far as the TV series is concerned, in the pacific battles, most of the fighting was at night, so trying to show a televised story of tracers flying around, and not a lot else to be seen is a difficult venture.

Jim McCoin
11-23-2010, 10:31 AM
I'm gonna have to ask my pop about this...He was a Navy Cox on a higgins boat and participated in the invasions of the Gilberts,Sullivans,Tarawa and Okie. He never made mention of coast guard crews manning the invasion landing boats (the landing ships,yes). As a side note, he never talked about the war untill I was well into my 40s (him in his seventys)....I can tell you PTSD is real, and its really a shame that it took so long for the government to recognize it.

My father was a Motor Machinest Mate second class in the Navy, he drove the Army ashore in the Phillipines. In fact he landed Douglas MacArthur ashore on either his second or third photo op.

"I shall return", as long as there's plenty of press

Jim

glennsche
11-23-2010, 11:54 AM
I might be, but I could have sworn it was Peleliu. The History Channel (or "The Hitlery Channel" as I like to call it due to every other show being about Hitler) had just released the "WW2 in HD" series shortly before I watched The Pacific and I could have sworn they showed the mass suicides in Peleiu...could be mistaken though. In any case, it definitely happened somewhere in the campaign and I'm still surprised they didn't address it- whole families flinging themselves off of cliffs in unison, fathers shooting their wives and children before turning the guns on themselves, etc.

-~D~-

i had heard that about okinawa, but not Peleliu.

Lead Waster
11-23-2010, 11:54 AM
dont want to start a huge arguement but seriously? comparing vietnam to ww2? seriously? you have no idea how angry this has made me. i had an uncle who was AT pearl harbor when it was bombed, he REFUSES to go on any type of boat because of it. oh it was just some planes bombing some ships right? PTSD is real. just because your "vietnam buddies" were vets doesnt mean they saw action. its like all these POG F%$#%^ claiming to have PTSD from hearing IEDs or gun shots go off. people like you with comments like that sicken me. that Marine went through hell, and your telling ME a Veteran, a real non POG vet that oh well he was a wimp, he cant shoot guns no more lol. ill tell you something, SERVING in another country is NOT the same as going to another country and FIGHTING. like i did, and all my brothers. take your comment and shove it up your ***.

I worked with a woman who was a Vietnam ERA vet. Meaning she worked in the motorpool on a US base in Germany during the Vietnam War. She thinks it's funny that she's a "Vietnam era" vet.

Khram
11-24-2010, 4:51 PM
My dad laughs about the Vietnam era vet thing too. He saw combat in Nam. Yes everybody deals with their ptsd stuff different I guess. He admits he has it somewhat but he sucks it up and mans up.

He loves guns and shooting has no prob with it. I met another Nam vet at a bar that waned nothing to do with guns after the war.

Knew of another that got upset with an ex friend of mine for bringing an AK over to his home it gave him bad memories. My dad found that amusing as he likes AKs and combloc weapons a lot.

To each his own I suppose.

Rogerbutthead
11-24-2010, 5:51 PM
There was a guy at work who was a something like 50% disabled Vietnam War vet who we had been told was the only survivor of a platoon that got ambushed. (he lost a large portion of his right upper arm)

One guy I knew wanted to hear the story first hand and at a bar when the vet was kinda buzzed, he repeatedly kept asking him about Vietnam. I guess the vet got tired of ignoring him as he grabbed the guy by the back of his head, shoved his head into his crotch and said, "This is Vietnam."

None of us ever mentioned Vietnam to him again.

Khram
11-29-2010, 9:30 AM
I just thought about this too guys. What do you all think about when Patton slapped the shell shocked soldier? I always felt he was not wrong for doing so if you watch the scene in the movie with me with serious physical wounds next to him.

Arguably Patton was one of our greatest WW2 generals who knew what it took to gain territory and strike terror in the Germans. A true warrior without time for PC bs in mamby pamby land.

NaughtyMonkey
11-29-2010, 1:24 PM
Here is my opinion. Both Series are great, there made by the same people. But "The Pacific" is not "Band of Brothers" people compare them too much.

Second it was a different war for the men who fought in the pacific vs Europe. It was more brutal and they had the worst of it, the battles were slow and would go on for months and months. Island after Island.